Brexit Thread

[Greyblades]

Transvaal was part of the British fatherland? Interesting perspective, especially since Britain was always part of the European fatherland...

Well there were more Britons than boers in it!

Seriously, if you were to live by the maxim that a nations sovereignty is a sacred right then you would have to parcel land off to every fritz, hans and albert that asks for it in the name of any national identity tehy can think of. My understanding is that germany has a lot of former nations that would leave every time there is a dispute if it was that easy.

When it comes to soverignty undiluted by additional humanitarian or representative concerns it reverts to might makes right, how much you are willing to fight to have the flag above your head your colour and how much adversity you are willing to suffer.

Indepenance is genrally a means not an end, not a cause people fight for its own sake.

[Husar]

Well there were more Britons than boers in it!

There were also more Russians than Ukrainians in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine...
And more Native Americans than British in America...
And more Palestinians than Jews in Palestine...

As for leaving a sovereign nation, IIRC your argument was that they were afraid to be incorporated/conquered, not that they were already part and wanted to secede. That's a different starting point, isn't it?

The UK is already part of the EU, should the EU force the UK to stay using violent means if necessary because one can't just let anyone leave a union to do their own thing?

If the referendum is close, one can even say that there are a lot of EU citizens in there and we need to make sure they're not oppressed by the nasty British separatist rebels.

[Pannonian]

There were also more Russians than Ukrainians in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine...
And more Native Americans than British in America...
And more Palestinians than Jews in Palestine...

As for leaving a sovereign nation, IIRC your argument was that they were afraid to be incorporated/conquered, not that they were already part and wanted to secede. That's a different starting point, isn't it?

The UK is already part of the EU, should the EU force the UK to stay using violent means if necessary because one can't just let anyone leave a union to do their own thing?

If the referendum is close, one can even say that there are a lot of EU citizens in there and we need to make sure they're not oppressed by the nasty British separatist rebels.

I'm voting to stay, but be careful of your accusations. The Brexit boys have some real grievances against the stay campaign, that you're making light of.

[InsaneApache]

I'm voting to stay, but be careful of your accusations. The Brexit boys have some real grievances against the stay campaign, that you're making light of.

Aye with friends like the EU, who needs enemies?

[Pannonian]

Aye with friends like the EU, who needs enemies?

There could be worse. We English weren't too happy either when the Scots voted on independence. Similar arguments exist in both cases, and there is certainly no moral superiority for one union whilst favouring exit from the other.

[Slyspy]

The referendum represents an abrogation of their responsibility on the part of our elected representatives while the two cases are made with half-truths spun until it is impossible to judge the reality of the claims. People are making up their minds on a crucial issue in an atmosphere of confusion and ignorance in which passion counts for more than fact.

This is no way to run a country.

[Husar]

The Brexit boys have some real grievances against the stay campaign, that you're making light of.

Serious question as that expression is rather new to me. Does it mean:

a) I'm taking it too lightly and it is a serious issue

or

b) I'm shining a light on something I may not want in the open (and may attract unwanted attention)

???

I can see both interpretations work.

[Gilrandir]

There were also more Russians than Ukrainians in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine...

The latter is wrong. Ukrainians dominate in any region except Crimea (yellow is for Ukrainians):



Perhaps you meant Russian speakers?

People are making up their minds on a crucial issue in an atmosphere of confusion and ignorance in which passion counts for more than fact.

This is no way to run a country.

This is the usual way with referenda and running countries.

[Pannonian]

Serious question as that expression is rather new to me. Does it mean:

a) I'm taking it too lightly and it is a serious issue

or

b) I'm shining a light on something I may not want in the open (and may attract unwanted attention)

???

I can see both interpretations work.

Treating such a proposition lightly, as if making fun of. Certain Europeans have rather more rights in the UK than is reasonable (more than UK citizens have in their country). If anyone seriously pushes the argument that you're proposing, then I'd support redressing that issue. And you know what, if that happens, people like yourself would blame the UK for acting to redress the balance, rather than people like yourself for drawing attention to that imbalance in the first place. It's always the case, that people like yourself like putting yourselves on a moral pedestal, whilst never taking responsibility for the consequences of your words.

[Husar]

Treating such a proposition lightly, as if making fun of. Certain Europeans have rather more rights in the UK than is reasonable (more than UK citizens have in their country). If anyone seriously pushes the argument that you're proposing, then I'd support redressing that issue. And you know what, if that happens, people like yourself would blame the UK for acting to redress the balance, rather than people like yourself for drawing attention to that imbalance in the first place. It's always the case, that people like yourself like putting yourselves on a moral pedestal, whilst never taking responsibility for the consequences of your words.

Myself thinks that yourself knows a lot more about myself than myself does, but thank yourself for the explanation.

The latter is wrong. Ukrainians dominate in any region except Crimea (yellow is for Ukrainians):



Perhaps you meant Russian speakers?

I thought so but just didn't care enough as the point stands either way.
Or maybe I should say: Not according to RT...

[Gilrandir]

Certain Europeans have rather more rights in the UK than is reasonable (more than UK citizens have in their country).

It makes sense. The British already dwarf even powers-that-be:
http://www.lindaikejisblog.com/2016/...lande-and.html

[InsaneApache]

It makes sense. The British already dwarf even powers-that-be:
http://www.lindaikejisblog.com/2016/...lande-and.html

Except one of them was bought without taxpayers money. Talk about apples and oranges!

[Greyblades]

Yes, which is why we have a representary democracy and not a direct one. Blame the Scots for setting the precident.

There were also more Russians than Ukrainians in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine...
And more Native Americans than British in America...
And more Palestinians than Jews in Palestine...

I was joking, the british didnt use them it to excuse annexing transvaal, they used them invading the cape colony to do that.

As for leaving a sovereign nation, IIRC your argument was that they were afraid to be incorporated/conquered, not that they were already part and wanted to secede. That's a different starting point, isn't it?

Yes. Hence why I'm arguing with gilrandir in the other thread over that comparison.

The UK is already part of the EU, should the EU force the UK to stay using violent means if necessary because one can't just let anyone leave a union to do their own thing?

The EU isnt a nation state (yet) despite its pretentions continued membership is determined as entirely voluntary, if that were to change and you did try to keep people by force, well, I hope you have a lot of force because there will suddenly be a lot more nations trying to leave.

If the referendum is close, one can even say that there are a lot of EU citizens in there and we need to make sure they're not oppressed by the nasty British separatist rebels.

Maybe when we start denying them voting rights, or start landing troops in normandy... again.

[Pannonian]

Yes, which is why we have a representary democracy and not a direct one. Blame the Scots for setting the precident.

I was joking, the british didnt use them it to excuse annexing transvaal, they used them invading the cape colony to do that.

Yes. Hence why I'm arguing with gilrandir in the other thread over that comparison.

The EU isnt a nation state (yet) despite its pretentions continued membership is determined as entirely voluntary, if that were to change and you did try to keep people by force, well, I hope you have a lot of force because there will suddenly be a lot more nations trying to leave.

Maybe when we start denying them voting rights, or start landing troops in normandy... again.

There's a statue of a bloke on a horse in Montreuil sur Mer, probably better known nowadays as the town where Jean Valjean was mayor, that commemorates when Germany tried to incorporate France into their empire. The Germans took exception to him in 1940 and melted him down, but it was recast after they got kicked back out of France.