Ukraine Thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"Putanist?..."In a wheelchair no less -- why not push ALL of the emotional buttons of the West and have her show up with a cute little puppy as well...." I hope you are deeply ashamed of this comment.
Whatever your opinion on Russia's politic, whatever your opinion about her political view to which she is entitled to, you speak of a human being.

Why should I be? I am not the one exploiting her disability for advantage. If anything, I was being snide towards Western culture's response to her disability and our overly emotional response to pets and the fact that we tend to focus on such things instead of the substantive aspects of this issue (her talent vis-à-vis the singing and Russian exploitation of these superficial elements for political advantage).

[Sarmatian]

Well, there is the entire idea that Russia purposefully orchestrated a win for disabled Crimean singer so that Ukraine ends up between a rock and a hard place.

It is just as conceivable that most Russians get overly emotional about disabled persons and her being from Crimea certainly helped her chances. Basically all she had to do to win was have a song that doesn't suck utterly.

Sympathy votes go a long way. Ukraine won last year with a song titled "1944" which is about persecution of Crimean Tatars...

[Brenus]

Why should I be? I am not the one exploiting her disability for advantage. If anything, I was being snide towards Western culture's response to her disability and our overly emotional response to pets and the fact that we tend to focus on such things instead of the substantive aspects of this issue (her talent vis-à-vis the singing and Russian exploitation of these superficial elements for political advantage).

That is your view. She was chosen because she is in a wheelchair... Or perhaps because she has talent? Or she touches the Russian soul?
https://youtu.be/gkv17jMnFNY
Funny enough, a French group did sing about deportation and war (Je n'oublie pas)
https://youtu.be/tJful-Jtc9o?list=RDtJful-Jtc9o.
Hungary had a song about Palestine (Wars for Nothing)...
https://youtu.be/MdybVsBESQc
All these songs were playing on feelings and emotional response. YOU are the one saying it is a exploitation. My wife is watching this king of programs (UK & US) and I don't count how many times I heard about moms having cancer and contestants losing best friends and so and so... So, you make a exeption of this handicapped person for your political view. That is why you should be ashamed.

Ukraine decided what politically correct is, so some are banned, some not, 1944 was not... Ukraine will do to European Song Contest what did happened to Olympic Games...
But I least I give to Ukraine it is clearly for their political view, not because she is on a wheel chair.

[Gilrandir]

Let's be honest, he's more successful than a Fascist.

We need a new term...

Putanist?

"Putana" means "a prostitute" in Russian. This is no joke.

http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?l1=2&l2=1&s=prosty

It is just as conceivable that most Russians get overly emotional about disabled persons and her being from Crimea certainly helped her chances.

She is not from Crimea. She was on a tour in Crimea. And according to Ukrainian laws one can only enter the peninsula via continental Ukraine. Otherwise it is considered illegal crossing of the border and such people are banned from visiting Ukraine.

All these songs were playing on feelings and emotional response. YOU are the one saying it is a exploitation. My wife is watching this king of programs (UK & US) and I don't count how many times I heard about moms having cancer and contestants losing best friends and so and so... So, you make a exeption of this handicapped person for your political view. That is why you should be ashamed.

This is what Russia wants to hear - callous people jeer at a poor invalid and deny her right to show her talent.

Ukraine decided what politically correct is, so some are banned, some not, 1944 was not...

It is not only about her political stance (although it adds spice to the issue). See above on her violating the law.

[Brenus]

"It is not only about her political stance (although it adds spice to the issue). See above on her violating the law.

Of course.

"This is what Russia wants to hear - callous people jeer at a poor invalid and deny her right to show her talent." See, poor invalid... Deny to show her talent... You are playing on it. For what I read, she is a talented artist recognised a such in Russia before the contest. As she was chosen by the Russian public, which according to some are against Putin's Clique, I assume she has some success in her own country. So, far for been deny to show her talent. You reduce her as an invalid, implying that without being on a wheelchair, she is nothing, talentless...

This Ukrainian stupid decision is just playing right in the Russian's game, if any. And it won't be any game without Ukraine's decision to ban her.
But better to blame Putin than a ill political decision, I suppose...

[Kagemusha]

Putin doesnt care about blame. If you make a bad move in a chess game and your opponent gains advantage because of that, is the blame his? The same applies to this larger scenario in Ukraine. Russia was underestimated and they capitalized on that mistake.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That is your view. She was chosen because she is in a wheelchair... Or perhaps because she has talent? Or she touches the Russian soul?.

Sorry to have been unclear. I presumed she was talented and appealed to the audience -- the political shenanigans would not work if she was unskilled. thanks for the clip btw

[Pannonian]

When is her story being turned into an Oscar-bait film? Are we waiting for the denouement before the rights get snapped up? Brits like Tom Hooper are also quite good at doing this kind of sentimentalist crap (eg. The King's Speech).

[Gilrandir]

"This is what Russia wants to hear - callous people jeer at a poor invalid and deny her right to show her talent." See, poor invalid... Deny to show her talent... You are playing on it. For what I read, she is a talented artist recognised a such in Russia before the contest.

So, far for been deny to show her talent. You reduce her as an invalid, implying that without being on a wheelchair, she is nothing, talentless...

When and where did I deny her talent? She sings nicely and the song is not bad.
BUT: does Ukraine have to change/disregard its laws because a) she is talented; b) she sings well; c) she is an invalid?

As she was chosen by the Russian public, which according to some are against Putin's Clique, I assume she has some success in her own country.

The initial presupposition is wrong. She was not chosen by public. She was appointed by a jury after a closeted session and the decision was announced to the public. Do I have to say that the jury included the top officials connected with the cultural sphere who can never be against Putin's Clique since they are a part of it?

This Ukrainian stupid decision is just playing right in the Russian's game, if any. And it won't be any game without Ukraine's decision to ban her.
But better to blame Putin than a ill political decision, I suppose...

Again a wrong initial presupposition. Where did I say (or perhaps you have found any sources on that?) that Ukraine denied her entrance? The decision is still pending. I believe that the Ukrainian authorities are searching for a way out that will look most adequate and will be digestable for the community.

There are different options besides sheer ban and just letting her in (not voiced by the officials, mind you) discussed. Some people say that she should be banned but the ban should be lifted for the period of the contest where she should be allowed ONLY to stay at a hotel, attend the rehearsals and sing at the concert. After she is done she should be escorted to the airport and a stamp of banning her from visiting Ukraine for the term stipulated by the law should be put into her passport. Others say that she should be asked at crossing the border to say who Crimea belongs to - and depending on her response she should be either banned or let in. Still others suggest that at the airport she should run the guantlet between the lines of invalids who suffered injuries in Donbas and that those invalids should occupy the first two rows at the concert to serve a silent reproach to the artist who supports Russian policy towards Ukraine.

All of these are opinions from different people not responsible for the ultimate decision, but those who are (SBU) are still making up their mind (or are searching for way to explain why their desicion was the best one).

[Gilrandir]

Meanwhile, Ukraine introduced a ban on trade with "DPR" and "LPR".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.d93929622743

[Brenus]

Again a wrong initial presupposition. Where did I say (or perhaps you have found any sources on that?) that Ukraine denied her entrance? The decision is still pending. I believe that the Ukrainian authorities are searching for a way out that will look most adequate and will be digestable for the community.

My mistake.
However, last time we had this kind of debate, when you told me that the Communist Party won't be banned, at the end, it was... So, as we say in French, boiled cat fears even cold water... It lost a bit in translation...

[Gilrandir]

My mistake.
However, last time we had this kind of debate, when you told me that the Communist Party won't be banned, at the end, it was...

Again wrong. I never said it WOUDN'T (WON'T) be banned. I said it WASN'T banned AT THAT MOMENT and that the court was considering its ban. I didn't claim anything certain about the outcome of the trial.

[Brenus]

Again wrong. I never said it WOUDN'T (WON'T) be banned. I said it WASN'T banned AT THAT MOMENT and that the court was considering its ban. I didn't claim anything certain about the outcome of the trial.

Casuist.

[Gilrandir]

Casuist.

Precisionist. You once said that it was terribly important.

[Brenus]

Precisionist. You once said that it was terribly important.

Reality check. You pretended it was not against the Communist Party. It was. Simple.

[Gilrandir]

Reality check. You pretended it was not against the Communist Party. It was. Simple.

Do you want to start it over again? The reality OF THAT MOMENT was that Communists were not banned. They were on trial. Ostensibly nobody knew what the outcome of it would be. The court's ruling came several months later, AFTER this question was being discussed on these boards.

[Brenus]

You can repeat it as long you want. The project was to ban the Communist Party as expressed by the Nazi in charge. Communist party was ban.
The result is what you denied. Ukraine banned a political Party (decommunisation laws). Fact you were contesting against all evidence. And fact which happened.

24 Jul 2015
Pavel Petrenko has signed a decree banning all communist parties from participating in elections in the country.
“You know, I think today is the day of historical justice. Today the minister has signed the decision according to legislation adopted by the Upper Rada [upper chamber of the Ukrainian parliament]. In accordance with this law communist parties lose their right to take part in political and election processes,” the secretary of Ukraine’s national security council Aleksandr Turchinov said during a briefing on Friday.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One word "labeling" attacks....again? That makes BOTH of you recidivists.

[Brenus]

One word "labeling" attacks....again? That makes BOTH of you recidivists.

Well, Gilrandir refuses to stand-up to his opinions, comments and analyses. So, someone has to put him in front of what he claimed and confront him with the reality.
I am not sure it will give results however.
Russian tanks are still not rolling to Berlin.
US troops are now at the borders of Russia.

[Gilrandir]

You can repeat it as long you want. The project was to ban the Communist Party as expressed by the Nazi in charge. Communist party was ban.
The result is what you denied. Ukraine banned a political Party (decommunisation laws). Fact you were contesting against all evidence. And fact which happened.

I never denied it was banned. It was. But WHEN WE WERE DISCUSSING IT it wasn't. Perform the reality check. Although I admit that your reality may be somewhat different from the reality others live in. Much like Putin's.

24 Jul 2015
Pavel Petrenko has signed a decree banning all communist parties from participating in elections in the country.
“You know, I think today is the day of historical justice. Today the minister has signed the decision according to legislation adopted by the Upper Rada [upper chamber of the Ukrainian parliament]. In accordance with this law communist parties lose their right to take part in political and election processes,” the secretary of Ukraine’s national security council Aleksandr Turchinov said during a briefing on Friday.

There is no "Upper Rada" in Ukraine. And the Ukrainian parliament is ONE CHAMBER. If you refer to sources like that it is no wonder your reality looks so distorted. And this refers to your post below as well.

Well, Gilrandir refuses to stand-up to his opinions, comments and analyses. So, someone has to put him in front of what he claimed and confront him with the reality.
I am not sure it will give results however.

Russian tanks are still not rolling to Berlin.

Did I claim they would be? If I did I would be very much obliged if you exemplified your reality check with a quote.

US troops are now at the borders of Russia.

Perhaps they are because Russia moved its troops into Crimea and a part of Donbas?

[Brenus]

"There is no "Upper Rada" in Ukraine" Yeah, as it change the reality of the ban...

"Perhaps they are because Russia moved its troops into Crimea and a part of Donbas?" Deployment of US forces was effective BEFORE Crimea...

"Did I claim they would be?" Long time ago, check yourself, be consistent... You denied every you pretend, then ask me to look for it. No thanks...

[Gilrandir]

"There is no "Upper Rada" in Ukraine" Yeah, as it change the reality of the ban...

It shows the reliability of sources you use for your reality check. And as for the ban: we were discussing it in 2014:

Ukraine-in-a-thread

Yours (#3437, September 21, 2014):
Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...

Mine (#3440, the same date):
Again Brenus tells a lie (which he no doubt drew from his reliable sources): it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law (we all should abide by the law in any situation, especially concerning the parliament, as Sarmatian never tires to remind us).
The prohibition of the party is being on trial still.

Yours (#3442):
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.

Mine (#3443):
You had said that the Communist party was illegal. Then you give a quotation that corroborates what I maintain - that the Communist faction was disbanded. Yet the party (not the parlaimentary faction) is still functioning. Turchinov hopes that it will not (future tense, mind you) due to the results of the trial which is still under way.
And you still claim that (read the first sentence).
Liar, liar.


And further on this discussion went. Mind the date - SEPTEMBER 2014. After that Communists took part in the parliamentary elections but didn't make it into the parliament culling 3.88% of votes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrain...ummary_results

And now you go presenting the information of 2015 as the proof that I denied the ban? That's rich.

"Perhaps they are because Russia moved its troops into Crimea and a part of Donbas?" Deployment of US forces was effective BEFORE Crimea...

You used the word "now". Remember?

US troops are now at the borders of Russia.

Like BEFORE they weren't?

"Did I claim they would be?" Long time ago, check yourself, be consistent... You denied every you pretend, then ask me to look for it. No thanks...

In view of what I said above I will not ask you to do anything. All your charges are empty words. In fact, everything you blame me in is applied to you, not to me.

But the most pathetic in it that you are so proud of being able to do "reality checks". This ability fails you again and again. First you saw ethnic cleansings in Ukraine...

Ukraine-in-a-thread #767

Ethnic Cleansing? So Putin is right, he is actually protecting the Russian Minority… And I thought it was a fight for democracy and freedom…


... then you claimed Svoboda had 1/3 seats in the Ukrainian parliament...

Ukraine-in-a-thread #2232

Member of his Nazi Party are. His party, Nazi, has 1/3 of the seat in the Ukrainian Parliament.


Should I remind you of your "successful" reality checks in cases of the unhindered Breton language use and the difference between a language and a dialect? And of a failure to apply it after you claimed Lagarde was one of the worst ministers of Finance in French history? So much for your claim that I predicted Russian tanks rolling to Berlin.

Like I said, your reality and the real world don't match.

[Brenus]

Still Communist Party was banned. That is the reality.
All your comments are just smoke screens. You will never change, and probably happy with it.

[Tristuskhan]

And of a failure to apply it after you claimed Lagarde was one of the worst ministers of Finance in French history?

Just on that one, Brenus and I gave figures of the awful deepening of the national debt during her time in office. If I remember well you answer she may not be responsible for it. I'm still trying to figure how the Ministre des Finances could be ignorant of the disaster brewing. She may have been aware and then she's just one of those b++++++ds who pushed us down and then not to be trusted. Or she may have been unaware and then she's the most incompentent minister of the last century.
Good luck to the World, anyway, with such people in power.

[Crandar]

Meanwhile in Ukraine:
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article...russian-banks/
Nice, nice.

[Greyblades]

Meanwhile, the monument to Nikolai Shchors, a Red Army commander during the Russian Civil War in 1917, was vandalised by unknown people and left without a part of the horse’s leg, in Kiev on Tuesday. The Ukrainian was member of the Russian Communist Party and renowned for his personal courage during the Russian Civil War where the communist forces triumphed over the monarchists.

Should have just called it a racist symbol and demanded it's "decolonisation", they would have gotten more than just a leg.

[Gilrandir]

Still Communist Party was banned. That is the reality.
All your comments are just smoke screens. You will never change, and probably happy with it.

They are not just my comments. They are YOUR POSTS showing inability to perform your notorious reality check. And if you fail to prove your point and show such failures now and then be happy living in the warped reality.

Just on that one, Brenus and I gave figures of the awful deepening of the national debt during her time in office. If I remember well you answer she may not be responsible for it. I'm still trying to figure how the Ministre des Finances could be ignorant of the disaster brewing. She may have been aware and then she's just one of those b++++++ds who pushed us down and then not to be trusted. Or she may have been unaware and then she's the most incompentent minister of the last century.
Good luck to the World, anyway, with such people in power.

My point was kinda twofold. First, the minister of finance is not THE ONLY person responsible for it. The crisis could have its toll as well. Second, such claims as our friend Realitychecker forwarded need a comparative analysis to expose its validity. The said comparison was never offered.

[Gilrandir]

Meanwhile in Ukraine:
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article...russian-banks/
Nice, nice.

I like it too. Especially when the news about Ukraine comes from....

BEIRUT, LEBANON (12:45 A.M.) – Dozens of Ukrainian nationalists vandalised two branches of Russian-owned banks, Sberbank and Alfa Bank, in the Ukrainian city of Nikolayev on Tuesday.

Another claim I like:

The action was reportedly organised by the National Corps, a party formed from the Azov Civil Corps and veterans of the far-right Azov Battalion, who committed atrocities against the Russian-speaking minority in eastern Ukraine during the Donbass war.

1. No proofs of the said atrocities are given.
2. In Eastern Ukaine Russian speakers are a majority.
3. The head of Azov is a Russian-speaker from Kharkiv who speaks Ukrainian haltingly and with an accent.
4. A good portion of other Azovians are from Eastern Ukraine, mostly the city of Mariupol where it was founded (and where it got its name after the Sea of Azov). They are also Russian speakers.


Meanwhile, the monument to Nikolai Shchors, a Red Army commander during the Russian Civil War in 1917, was vandalised by unknown people and left without a part of the horse’s leg, in Kiev on Tuesday.

According to a law adpoted in Ukraine last year all monuments connected with Communism (and its leaders) are to be demolished. In Kyiv all of them were, except this one. So legally speaking, it has no right to stand where it does.

The Ukrainian was member of the Russian Communist Party and renowned for his personal courage during the Russian Civil War where the communist forces triumphed over the monarchists.

It is too simplified a picture of the Civil War of 1917-1922. There were more than two beligerents, notably numerous national liberation forces including the Ukraininan one.


Conclusion: a sloppily written peice of news which looks like a hearsay reported by one who is not well versed (to put it mildly) in the subject.

[Crandar]

Yes, surprisingly Kiev remained silent, so I had to look in Beirut.

Αsking for proof of atrocities committed by the Azov Batallion is similar to asking for proof of the naughtiness of SS and therefore similar to Holocaust denial, but if you insist, you can start by that Wikipedia paragraph and its linked UN reports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_B...and_war_crimes
I stand corrected for the statue, though, I didn't know that the Ukrainian government had already gone full-Nazi, banning parties it dislikes.
I guess it's a natural evolution from the rioters beating old communist veterans and ethnic minorities, imitating the Lvov pogrom. Despicable.

[Brenus]

"They are not just my comments. They are YOUR POSTS showing inability to perform your notorious reality check. And if you fail to prove your point and show such failures now and then be happy living in the warped reality." Whatever.