Violence in Charlottesville

[Montmorency]

The Greeks and Romans would probably have made the Hollywood walk of fame one where you walk by statues of the actors honored there.

Way ahead of you.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Way ahead of you.

Tacky

[Husar]

I don't think the wax figurines would last long in the rain and wind outside.
And being in a museum doesn't count as being praised in public.

[Beskar]

[drone]

Never thought I would see one of my relatives on the Org. Their channel must be getting decent views, how did you find this?

[Agent Miles]

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=72360

"Now, therefore, be it known that I, Andrew Johnson President of the United States, by virtue of the power and authority in me vested by the Constitution and in the name of the sovereign people of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare unconditionally and without reservation, to all and to every person who, directly or indirectly, participated in the late insurrection or rebellion a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof."

Just as President Obama pardoned men who are now no longer criminals, so all Confederates were pardoned "unconditionally and without reservation" and were no longer traitors. After the Civil War, the widows, orphans and survivors of Confederate soldiers were allowed to decorate the graves of the fallen and yes, build statues to them. The statues do not honor traitors, because the men were pardoned.

About 20% of the Confederate Army owned slaves. However, some of the men who fought for the Union owned slaves, too. Over the previous centuries, African rulers sold prisoners of war, criminals and undesirables into slavery. Arab slavers sold them to Europeans who brought them to the Americas. The economy of much of the world was based on the slave trade.

So, statues were built for pardoned men out of love and respect from family and admirers, not to honor traitors. I hate slavery in all of its forms and we all most certainly should. However, blind hatred makes us "useful idiots" to groups that are trying to create one-issue voters. In science, the saying goes that we can see farther because we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. This should apply to our history as well. On Grant's tomb are the words, "Let us have Peace".

[Husar]

Just as President Obama pardoned men who are now no longer criminals, so all Confederates were pardoned "unconditionally and without reservation" and were no longer traitors. After the Civil War, the widows, orphans and survivors of Confederate soldiers were allowed to decorate the graves of the fallen and yes, build statues to them. The statues do not honor traitors, because the men were pardoned.

As usual one might ask though: And what about their victims?

Obama mostly pardoned people who got really long sentences for owning a few grams of Marihuana AFAIK, that's a bit different from being a slave owner and being willing to kill others to be able to stay a slave owner.
Besides, your last sentence there is not necessarily correct. Someone does not stop being a traitor the moment they are pardoned, the pardoning means they are no longer prosecuted for their treason. If they were no traitors, they couldn't have been pardoned for treason in the first place.

Their being pardoned also doesn't mean the victims of their crimes have to just shut up and take it when their minions or families want to praise them for their crimes.

About 20% of the Confederate Army owned slaves. However, some of the men who fought for the Union owned slaves, too. Over the previous centuries, African rulers sold prisoners of war, criminals and undesirables into slavery. Arab slavers sold them to Europeans who brought them to the Americas. The economy of much of the world was based on the slave trade.

Except that this type of chattel slavery was pretty new and a particularly nasty form of slavery compared to the forms that had been around before:

http://www.discoveringbristol.org.uk...frica-slavery/

Slavery existed in Africa, but it was not the same type of slavery that the Europeans introduced. The European form was called chattel slavery. A chattel slave is a piece of property, with no rights. Slavery within Africa was different. A slave might be enslaved in order to pay off a debt or pay for a crime. Slaves in Africa lost the protection of their family and their place in society through enslavement. But eventually they or their children might become part of their master’s family and become free. This was unlike chattel slavery, in which enslaved Africans were slaves for life, as were their children and grandchildren.

And the fact that others participated in it for profit does not make it better, it just adds to the depravity.

So, statues were built for pardoned men out of love and respect from family and admirers

Cry me a river, by that logic we can also build statues for the men who hid children in their cellars as sex toys because their wives loved them, too.

[Montmorency]

That's not how a pardon works. To accept a pardon is to accept the charges associated with it. The pardon serves only to forgive or commute the penalties levied in connection with the offense.

If someone is pardoned for murder, it most definitely means they are still a murderer.

About 20% of the Confederate Army owned slaves. However, some of the men who fought for the Union owned slaves, too. Over the previous centuries, African rulers sold prisoners of war, criminals and undesirables into slavery. Arab slavers sold them to Europeans who brought them to the Americas. The economy of much of the world was based on the slave trade.

What do you think it serves to list all these irrelevancies? Do you imagine it vindicates the Confederacy somehow? It does not.

So, statues were built for pardoned men out of love and respect from family and admirers, not to honor traitors. I hate slavery in all of its forms and we all most certainly should. However, blind hatred makes us "useful idiots" to groups that are trying to create one-issue voters. In science, the saying goes that we can see farther because we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. This should apply to our history as well. On Grant's tomb are the words, "Let us have Peace".

Again, you're throwing together several irrelevant points that do not support any coherent argument; this is the hostile rhetoric of muddying the water.

Be careful if you don't want to be taken in bad faith.

[Pannonian]

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=72360

"Now, therefore, be it known that I, Andrew Johnson President of the United States, by virtue of the power and authority in me vested by the Constitution and in the name of the sovereign people of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare unconditionally and without reservation, to all and to every person who, directly or indirectly, participated in the late insurrection or rebellion a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof."

Just as President Obama pardoned men who are now no longer criminals, so all Confederates were pardoned "unconditionally and without reservation" and were no longer traitors. After the Civil War, the widows, orphans and survivors of Confederate soldiers were allowed to decorate the graves of the fallen and yes, build statues to them. The statues do not honor traitors, because the men were pardoned.

About 20% of the Confederate Army owned slaves. However, some of the men who fought for the Union owned slaves, too. Over the previous centuries, African rulers sold prisoners of war, criminals and undesirables into slavery. Arab slavers sold them to Europeans who brought them to the Americas. The economy of much of the world was based on the slave trade.

So, statues were built for pardoned men out of love and respect from family and admirers, not to honor traitors. I hate slavery in all of its forms and we all most certainly should. However, blind hatred makes us "useful idiots" to groups that are trying to create one-issue voters. In science, the saying goes that we can see farther because we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. This should apply to our history as well. On Grant's tomb are the words, "Let us have Peace".

Shouldn't Stonewall Jackson's statues be taken down?

[Beskar]

Never thought I would see one of my relatives on the Org. Their channel must be getting decent views, how did you find this?

Initially via twitter. Seems to have gone very viral. @drone

[Agent Miles]

Montmorency, you're posting from the regular presidential pardon discussion, like the one Obama issued. Read the proclamation from Johnson. There is no muddy water here.