Violence in Charlottesville

[Agent Miles]

Obviously, many or all of you were ignorant of the Presidential pardon. Some of you were still ignorant that an unconditional Presidential pardon does indeed return the pardoned to innocense. That leaves those who still just desire to be ignorant.

Nonetheless, the Confederate soldiers were no longer traitors. It's not a sign of moral superiority for someone to refer to the men Obama pardoned as criminal scum, because that would be slander. Of course, one can speak ill of the dead and not suffer judgement for slander.

This much is most certainly true. All of the voting age Confederates were Democrats. My Republican ancestors fought that war because the Democrats thought they owned African Americans, so they could lie to them, cheat them and tell them what to think. We're still working on that one.

[Husar]

Obviously, many or all of you were ignorant of the Presidential pardon. Some of you were still ignorant that an unconditional Presidential pardon does indeed return the pardoned to innocense. That leaves those who still just desire to be ignorant.

Surely you want to be ignorant then because Montmorency quoted the part from your own link that proves you wrong?

[Agent Miles]

Which does not refer to an unconditional Presidential pardon explained above that. That part comes under the conditional pardon.

If you bang a closed box on your head and perceive a hollow sound, it doesn't always mean that the box is empty.

[Montmorency]

Obviously, many or all of you were ignorant of the Presidential pardon. Some of you were still ignorant that an unconditional Presidential pardon does indeed return the pardoned to innocense. That leaves those who still just desire to be ignorant.

Again, this is false.

See the source you linked and the DOJ website.

10. Effect of a pardon

While a presidential pardon will restore various rights lost as a result of the pardoned offense and should lessen to some extent the stigma arising from a conviction, it will not erase or expunge the record of your conviction.

This much is most certainly true. All of the voting age Confederates were Democrats. My Republican ancestors fought that war because the Democrats thought they owned African Americans, so they could lie to them, cheat them and tell them what to think. We're still working on that one.

Perhaps we should erect statues in honor of the over 100,000 Southern patriots who took up arms in resistance to the Treason of their State governments.

[Agent Miles]

Check Unconditional Presidential pardon. Your link is not about Johnson's proclamation. Also, the southerners who fought against the South were not Confederate soldiers, right? You can get that part without a second reading.

[Montmorency]

Check Unconditional Presidential pardon. Your link is not about Johnson's proclamation.

It is the very same. You have not understood what the presidential pardon actually is.

[Agent Miles]

One more time:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=72360

"Now, therefore, be it known that I, Andrew Johnson President of the United States, by virtue of the power and authority in me vested by the Constitution and in the name of the sovereign people of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare unconditionally and without reservation, to all and to every person who, directly or indirectly, participated in the late insurrection or rebellion a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof."

"unconditionally and without reservation"

"with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution"

That means without conditions. "All rights and privileges" would not mean that you're mostly still a traitor.

[Montmorency]

Conditions means on the part of the pardoner or the pardonee. It has nothing to do with the offense.

The President is empowered to pardon unconditionally.
The beneficiary may receive the benefits of the pardon unconditionally.
The beneficiary is still on record for the offense. There is no exoneration unless specified.

Here's an example you should be able to understand: Obama pardons someone for drug possession. This individual is still a felon on counts of drug possession.

While a presidential pardon will restore various rights lost as a result of the pardoned offense and should lessen to some extent the stigma arising from a conviction, it will not erase or expunge the record of your conviction.

You have a wrong understanding of the English here.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Obviously, many or all of you were ignorant of the Presidential pardon. Some of you were still ignorant that an unconditional Presidential pardon does indeed return the pardoned to innocense. That leaves those who still just desire to be ignorant.

Nonetheless, the Confederate soldiers were no longer traitors. It's not a sign of moral superiority for someone to refer to the men Obama pardoned as criminal scum, because that would be slander. Of course, one can speak ill of the dead and not suffer judgement for slander.

This much is most certainly true. All of the voting age Confederates were Democrats. My Republican ancestors fought that war because the Democrats thought they owned African Americans, so they could lie to them, cheat them and tell them what to think. We're still working on that one.

Don't be snarky. That is EXACTLY what I meant when I said unpunished and free of legal taint. In all matters of law, etc. the pardoned is given a tablula rasa. That does NOT mean the event did not occur or that they were not responsible for it. Nixon was pardoned for his participation in an obstruction of justice (actually the pardon was even more broadly framed) and could not be brought before any court for any cause relating to that. He is still thought of and labeled a criminal by most.

[Agent Miles]

The Confederate soldiers were pardoned. You agree to that. Nothing else in your post matters. Some of the pardoned served in their state and local governments or actually became Congressmen. Not the usual treatment for traitors, or double secret traitors. History will not be rewritten to serve a political goal. Also, slandering the dead is about as snarky as it gets.

[Beskar]

Confederate Statues were mass produced and crumple very easily. They are used as reactionary devices, nothing about honouring the dead in the slightest. They are propaganda pieces, not time honoured pieces. The fact they were quickly constructed 60 years or so after the end of the civil war puts the idea as honouring family members in the dust, as there have been at least couple of generations since that time. Spikes were during the Jim Crow laws period, foundation of the Klan (and 2nd Klan) and the 100 year anniversary (1960s Civil Rights Movement)... all periods of racial conflict.

[Husar]

The Confederate soldiers were pardoned. You agree to that. Nothing else in your post matters. Some of the pardoned served in their state and local governments or actually became Congressmen. Not the usual treatment for traitors, or double secret traitors. History will not be rewritten to serve a political goal. Also, slandering the dead is about as snarky as it gets.

You're apparently unable to differentiate between being legally guilty and being morally guilty in the eyes of your fellow humans.

A presidential pardon removes any guilt you may have had for which the legal system could prosecute you, it does not however say that you didn't commit a crime and it certainly does not force anyone to forget that you committed a crime. In fact it can only be given as your first link said, when you've committed a crime in the first place. If there was no crime then there cannot be a pardon. The very existence of a pardon depends on the existence of a crime that can be pardoned. To deny that is just silly. Surely the legal system and some of its extensions will pretend there was no crime after a pardon but that's about it.

See your quoted part: "with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution"

Notice the reference to the Constitution, which is a legal document? Exactly, it refers to a restoration of legal rights, it does not refer to an annullment of moral guilt. It does not say the crime never happened, it says the crime shall have no further legal consequences.