Coronavirus / COVID-19

[ReluctantSamurai]

You know, if the 50 or so people you claim in your circle of family and friends don't contract this virus, I'm happy for you. But your "yet another sweeping threat to our civil liberties" dog just doesn't hunt. The same way that people who drive impaired (which constitutes close to 50% of fatalities worldwide) face the consequences, including jail time, so should people who disregard the social implications of treating a highly infectious disease as "fear porn", as you call it. I don't need to hear the worn excuse that thousands die from the flu every year. We have vaccines, and humans have built up resistances to many flu's over the years.

COVID-19 is not a flu. It has flu-like symptoms, but it behaves much differently than a flu virus. Two key points being: a) it's a new virus, so we have no natural antibodies to fight it (and vaccines won't be available for quite some time); b) it has a long incubation period as compared to flu viruses, so you can get the doubling effect as described by the Bedford Lab in Seattle, and suddenly you go from 1 case to hundreds and thousands before you even know which way is up (see Italy, South Korea, Iran, etc).

That's why measures have to be swift, and draconian if necessary. I don't give a damn about your civil liberties if it means thousands of lives can be saved. Just like I don't give a damn about your civil liberties if you get behind the wheel of a vehicle while impaired, and kill someone.

[Kurando]

That's why measures have to be swift, and draconian if necessary. I don't give a damn about your civil liberties if it means thousands of lives can be saved.

...You believe that your civil liberties are being compromised to save peoples lives from a virus?? Didn't they blatantly scam you in the wake of 9/11 into believing that your civil liberties were being compromised to save peoples lives from terrorists? -Hindsight much??

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with.

[rory_20_uk]

I thought that the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer set out their reasons in a pretty sensible way - how for example shutting schools is highly likely to be merely damaging with children likely to quickly be seeing each other and in many cases sent to be looked after by the grandparents who should be quarantined; how unless almost all air traffic is stopped then again this has a very limited affect and causes vast disruption. Boris also let the experts do their job on a highly technical matter.

I'm not an expert on this whatsoever, but their reasons for not having taken actions made sense.

The Journalists then excelled demonstrating that they've studied no science since they were about 15 and have far more interest in penny dreadful headlines than booooring epidemiological modelling.

Of course, there are in the whole of the UK a few thousand ICU beds and possibly at best tens of thousands of ventilators so even ignoring staffing issues and illness we could be way short of worst-case predictions for the system to be constrained.

So... I guess I'll be working from home for several months to come then.

[rory_20_uk]

...You believe that your civil liberties are being compromised to save peoples lives from a virus?? Didn't they blatantly scam you in the wake of 9/11 into believing that your civil liberties were being compromised to save peoples lives from terrorists? -Hindsight much??

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with.

I don't think that the USA needs any reason to pry further into its citizens:

Border Patrol can stop and detain for any reason up to 100 miles in from a border. That's almost 2/3 of the entire population right there.
Anything digital can be taken either with or without the rubber-stamp court warrant.
Most police cars have automatic number plate recognition - which can be cross referenced with your cell phone to track.
Riots are responded to with police armed with the sort of equipment that would fight a decent war - except the police have far less training than the military.

If there was a time the government was scared of the People, that is at least 100 years ago.

[Kurando]

I don't think that the USA needs any reason to pry further into its citizens...

In a sense I agree. As all of these circumstances that you mentioned are firmly in place as a result of the Patriot Act et al the government now more than anything needs to know what it's citizens will do about it if those restrictions are put into action. What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it? -Sadly the answer is that we will do nothing, and worse still, that yet again, the vast majority can be bamboozled into thinking that it's all for our own good at the drop of a hat. We are indeed screwed, but I dare say it's not because of COVID-19, that part is just a convenience.

[Montmorency]

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were?

This all sounds cranky.

[ReluctantSamurai]

@Kurando

You know, for someone who requested a wake-up call after all this boring shit is over, you seem awfully intent on making an imprint on this discussion.....just sayin'

the death of one person I care about is not nearly as concerning as the 99.9% of the rest of people I care about being oblivious to having their entire way of life decimated by what is essentially an opportunistic experiment in social control.

Jesus, I'd hate to be one of those 50 or so in your circle of friends/family

Look around. You think that this whole situation is a fabrication simply to gain social control?? When the last infected aerosol droplet has settled, there's going to be hell to pay. Heads of state and leaders of medical emergency responders are going to lose their jobs.

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with

You'll get no argument from me about government intelligence agencies taking advantage of 9/11 to expand their powers, and increase their influence on our lives. But you are comparing apples with oranges. The focus after 9/11 became us vs them; a wartime fabrication that pits Western nations against Islamic nations. A virus doesn't care about religion, doesn't care about politics, doesn't give a damn about anyone's civil liberties. They just do what they do...replicate themselves in as many willing hosts as they can.

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it? -Sadly the answer is that we will do nothing, and worse still, that yet again, the vast majority can be bamboozled into thinking that it's all for our own good at the drop of a hat

You obviously haven't been paying attention to how this virus works. It absolutely loves (yes, I know, viruses don't have feelings) large, very crowded areas like sports arenas, subway trains, airplanes, cruise ships, etc., etc., etc., because it can infect someone who may not show symptoms for as long as 14 days, if at all. And if you even bothered to read the piece from Bedford labs, you might understand that 1 infection becomes two and then four and so on, until you have thousands before you even know it.

If there had been an outright, and total travel ban placed on countries where the virus was located, then Patient 0 would never have made it to Seattle, and then gone to California, etc., etc., etc. Too bad if you feel like your liberties were interfered with, a whole lot of people in Washington State and elsewhere might still be alive right now. And the instant the virus got here, or wherever you are from, all sporting events are cancelled; Disney World---closed; all schools from K-1 to college---either closed or moved online. If an area starts showing large clusters of infections, quarantine or even total lock-down. Sound familiar? Yep, that's how the Chinese got it under control (at least for the time being), and the scenario is now being repeated in Italy. Look what happened in S. Korea. The government decides not to impinge on the right to have large religious gatherings; one infected person in the Shincheonji Church of Jesus congregates with a thousand or so members of their sect on 18 Feb, and by 23 Feb there were hundreds of new cases and something on the order of 100 new ones every day. By 11 March there were 7,700 confirmed cases of the virus with around three quarters of that total occurring in Daegu and about 63 percent directly linked to the Shinchonji religious group. Do the math. If religious gatherings had had a temporary ban, there would have been over 3,600 less cases. Same story in Iran. No ban on religious gatherings, no postponement of elections (because the powers that be wanted a large voter turnout to legitimize their brand). And look what happened. As of 15 Feb, there were no reported cases (although the virus was likely already there). In less than one month (as of 10 March), there are 8,042 reported infections (very likely grossly under-reported), and 291 deaths. New cases are coming in a a rate of almost 900 per day. Talk to all the families who lost loved ones about civil liberties. You just might find them willing to trade a few weeks of quarantine to have them in the land of the living still.

So....to hell with civil liberties in a situation like world is experiencing right now. Want to increase your chances of not getting sick or dying? Stay home and, you know, actually have a conversation, face-to-face with friends and loved ones instead doing face-time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"More than 125,000 people have been diagnosed with Covid-19 in 118 countries around the world, according to the World Health Organization. The total number of deaths is more than 4,600."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51862347

This is just not OK, this is not "fear porn".

[Kurando]

This all sounds cranky.

Then I will put it bluntly: ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable. That goes for a government here, there, or anywhere. For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was.

Funny but, I keep thinking back to the psychologist who more than a century ago invented the concept of Kindergarden. His though process was that if you surround a child with pretty toys and frivolity for the first 6 years of it's life that the child will be powerless to question authority later in life. We are proving him right and acting like a society of impotent sheep whenever authority tests those waters.

I don't want you to think I am not concerned for my circle of 50 close friends or for any of you guys, on the contrary, I am deeply concerned, just not about the potential impact of the virus itself. As I said in the first post "if" I lose friends and neighbours I will take the virus part seriously, until then this whole situation stinks to high heaven of something else. Something concrete which has had ongoing impact on all of our lives, not a sudden impact on them.

[Montmorency]

Then I will put it bluntly: ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable. That goes for a government here, there, or anywhere. For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was.

What exactly is your theory, then? Describe it, step-by-step. Otherwise you may as well be saying that this pandemic is just an opportunity for mice to eat all our cheese. Lay out your theory and explain the steps.

Funny but, I keep thinking back to the psychologist who more than a century ago invented the concept of Kindergarden. His though process was that if you surround a child with pretty toys and frivolity for the first 6 years of it's life that the child will be powerless to question authority later in life. We are proving him right and acting like a society of impotent sheep whenever authority tests those waters.

That's not what Kindergarten was or is.

I don't want you to think I am not concerned for my circle of 50 close friends or for any of you guys, on the contrary, I am deeply concerned, just not about the potential impact of the virus itself. As I said in the first post "if" I lose friends and neighbours I will take the virus part seriously, until then this whole situation stinks to high heaven of something else. Something concrete which has had ongoing impact on all of our lives, not sudden impact on them.

If you're taking it seriously when your friends or family are dying then it is too late. That's like saying you'll take the threat of war seriously only when there are foreign boots in the capital.

Look at it objectively: if there is a threat, when is the time to begin addressing it? If it helps, start from the point where the virus is a serious threat and could be exploited by a nefarious government somehow. What then?

[a completely inoffensive name]

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it?

LOL, bro my city sets cars on fire and riots every time the Lakers win. YOu think people are gonna wake up one day and accept no more sports?

Bruh, where is your prepper bunker and 50 gallon drum of mac and cheese? I can repair your water filtration system, so you need me when society collapses.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL, bro my city sets cars on fire and riots every time the Lakers win. YOu think people are gonna wake up one day and accept no more sports?

Bruh, where is your prepper bunker and 50 gallon drum of mac and cheese? I can repair your water filtration system, so you need me when society collapses.

Pah - I'm probably the only one of you who can shoot straight and maintain his IW - you wanna be in my bunker.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Pah - I'm probably the only one of you who can shoot straight and maintain his IW - you wanna be in my bunker.

I'm an American. Of course I've shot before. Nothing further than 500 meters though. And I am terrible at skeet shooting, so don't ask me to hunt birds.

But I do want to be in your bunker. Mainly because California earthquakes turn bunkers into cement coffins over here.

[ReluctantSamurai]

For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was

Ok, I'll bite. exactly who is doing the exploiting and exactly who are these nebulous opportunities going to benefit? So far, all your accusations have been rather vague as to specifics....so ditto what Monty said