POTUS/General Election Thread 2020 + Aftermath

[rory_20_uk]

Now the Donald is almost certainly on the way out and as a consequence will loose his Presidential Immunity, what should happen next?

One article I've read is that Biden should give him a pardon to put a line under the last 4 years. As he'd the quietly fade into history...

Personally I think, if only to demonstrate that such actions have consequences and the whole "rule of law" thing there should be an investigation and charges at Federal level where appropriate along with the State charges.

Either way I imagine The Donald will start the election campaign for 2024 in February 2021 which is after all his favourite part of being president.

What do other think is going to happen?

[Hooahguy]

Something former NJ governor Chris Christie and a guest GOP senator (can't remember exactly who) on ABC's Roundtable Discussion said when posed the question of how to reach a more bi-partisan agreement on policy issues, was all about the Dems need to do this and the Dems need to that. Screw THAT kind of elitist talk, folks. Bi-partisan talks go both ways. This is why I have little hope that Biden/Harris will get anything meaningful done that requires Congressional approval unless both senatorial seats in Georgia are taken by the Dems. The Grim Reaper isn't going to budge an inch on anything that doesn't benefit the GOP.

Exactly this. Republicans use bipartisanship to cudgel Dems about and then laugh all the way to the bank when they are in power. Whenever Dems act in good faith (ACA debate anyone?), the GOP just stonewalls. No reason to do the same unless theres no other choice.

Now the Donald is almost certainly on the way out and as a consequence will loose his Presidential Immunity, what should happen next?

One article I've read is that Biden should give him a pardon to put a line under the last 4 years. As he'd the quietly fade into history...

Personally I think, if only to demonstrate that such actions have consequences and the whole "rule of law" thing there should be an investigation and charges at Federal level where appropriate along with the State charges.

Either way I imagine The Donald will start the election campaign for 2024 in February 2021 which is after all his favourite part of being president.

What do other think is going to happen?

Absolutely no pardon for Trump. Not saying he should direct the DOJ to investigate Trump, but he needs to let the investigations take their course, no matter where they might lead. IIRC his plan is to do exactly that, stand back and let justice go its course. Pardoning Trump would result in a repeat of what happened to Ford.

Ford, who was cheered during an appearance in Philadelphia the days before the pardon, was booed when he arrived at the Greater Pittsburgh Airport the Monday after it. Californian Lee Davis, quoted in The Washington Post at the time, called the pardon “dirty politics.” In Pittsburgh, demonstrators yelled out, “Jail Ford! Jail Ford!” Protesters soon gathered outside the White House holding a banner that read: “Promise Me Pardon and I’ll Make You President.”

[...]

Ford’s approval ratings plummeted, from 71 percent after taking office to just 42 percent by the end of 1974. Worse yet, the decision to let Nixon go fueled the distrust of government that had become so pronounced as a result of Watergate and the Vietnam War.

Even Nixon seemed emboldened. When interviewed by David Frost on television a few years later, Nixon defiantly insisted: “Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.”

The nation has continued to pay for its failure to hold Nixon accountable. The divisions that Ford had hoped to paper over with his pardon have only continued to widen. Moreover, the general trend — toward a vague sense of “healing” instead of holding specific wrongdoers accountable — has only continued to erode the public’s faith in government over the ensuing decades. High-level officials in the Reagan administration clearly subverted the law in the Iran-Contra scandal but escaped any real punishment thanks to pardons from President George H.W. Bush. War crimes committed during the George W. Bush administration, meanwhile, were swept under the rug when the Obama White House refused to insist on accountability there.

The lessons are clear: If an administration commits crimes without being held accountable, the next commander in chief feels emboldened to keep skirting the rules and violating the public trust. It should not be a total surprise that Trump, who came of age in the decades surrounding the pardon, believes that he can skirt the formal limits of power without having to fear any sort of real blowback.

Turning a blind eye to abuses of power might heal the political careers of individual partisans, but it does nothing to heal the nation. Indeed, a lack of accountability only makes the popular resentment over Washington more pronounced and the partisan divide more deeply felt.

[drone]

Now the Donald is almost certainly on the way out and as a consequence will loose his Presidential Immunity, what should happen next?

One article I've read is that Biden should give him a pardon to put a line under the last 4 years. As he'd the quietly fade into history...

Personally I think, if only to demonstrate that such actions have consequences and the whole "rule of law" thing there should be an investigation and charges at Federal level where appropriate along with the State charges.

I think the smart move would be to not go after Trump at the federal level, but also not pardon him. Let New York State proceed with the tax/insurance fraud case and not interfere at all. By all means, make an accounting of all possible federal charges, but not act on it unless he starts getting frisky. Meanwhile Biden should clean out any Trump IGs, and instruct his Cabinet to start building cases against anyone in the executive branch that broke the law either enabling Trump or doing their own side scams. If for no other reason than to keep them out of federal employment from now on. Neither Trump nor his rabid redhats will care if some rando former undersecretary gets nailed for fraud, Hatch act violations, or human rights abuses, and accountability is important. Maybe start with DeJoy, but this is a long, long list.

On a related note, I'm curious to see who he will pardon. Himself and his kids for sure, but I would guess nobody else unless they offer cash. Promising not to testify won't do it, promises are cheap. A lot of loyalists are going to get left holding the bag.

Either way I imagine The Donald will start the election campaign for 2024 in February 2021 which is after all his favourite part of being president.

He likes to campaign because he likes ripping people off. He raided his inauguration fund for cash, and started his 2020 campaign as soon as he got in office so the donations could continue to pour in. He had raised a huge sum by the GOP convention, but couldn't afford ad buys by the end of the race. The smart Republicans knew that the best way to help his campaign financially was not to donate to him, but to GOP superPACs he couldn't get his grubby little hands on. His rallies were "free" since we paid for his travel and he stiffed the locals for police work and transportation. The "Stop the Steal" fund will be used in the same way, it's not that he thinks it's going to work, but he needs the money.

Hence my comment on Four Seasons Total Landscaping. Deutsch Bank will be calling in a huge loan in 2021, he will have to pay for his rallies now, and I imagine most locales will be asking for money upfront, which might curtail his public appearances. Also, on Jan 21st he may find himself kicked off Twitter for violations of the TOS. His days of free publicity may be over, and he's broke.

[Montmorency]

Valuable African perspectives:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/africa...ntial-election

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fatma Karume, Tanzanian Lawyer (@fatma_karume)
As someone who has witnessed the death of a transitional democracy in Tanzania, I am bemused by the often repeated description of the 2020 U.S. election as “critical for the survival of democracy.” I am not disputing Trump’s authoritarian tendencies and his strongman persona. He may not like to display his pectoral muscles like Vladimir Putin, but he does not shy away from exercising his presidential hire-and-fire powers. He has been through four chiefs of staff in four years compared to Barack Obama’s five chiefs of staff in his eight years in the White House. The rate at which Trump dispenses key staff, his unfiltered language, and his disregard for science in favor of bleach in the fight against Covid-19 is reminiscent of presidential behavior on a continent he reportedly described as being comprised of “shithole countries,” including my own, but let’s give the devil his due.

Coincidentally Tanzania had a general election on October 28, 2020. The National Electoral Commission (NEC) stuffed the rafters with presidential appointees, ensuring the ruling party won seats by disqualifying opposition candidates before a single ballot was cast. Police teargassed opposition campaigns, opposition candidates were injuncted from campaigning, and others were arrested and imprisoned. On election day, ballot stuffing in favor of the incumbent was de rigueur. The NEC announced Magufuli had won 84 percent of the popular vote, and his party 99 percent of parliamentary seats. The opposition refused to recognize the results and the general public looked on in quiet astonishment, as the army and police force took over our streets. No Tanzanian can challenge Magufuli’s presidency in a court of law as the Constitution bars such a challenge. Magufuli is our president for the next five years, evidence of ballot stuffing or not.

A world away, Joe Biden has his lawyers primed to challenge Trump, and Trump stands at the ready to fire. Biden’s campaign was not punctured with teargas or sabotaged by the state. The fact that Trump is refusing to say he will concede defeat does not pose an existential threat to American democracy. He is just posturing, and it means nothing in a system in which Trump does not control the people who count the votes, nor the courts. When it comes to destroying democracies, Trump is definitely not the most effective; he has much to learn from leaders of some of our “shithole countries.”

Wednesday, November 4, 3:11 p.m. ET
Aanu Adeoye, Mail & Guardian (@aanuadeoye)
Just a day before the United States went to the polls, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called on Tanzanian authorities to "fully address" election irregularities. At the time it seemed rich given President Donald Trump had not committed to a peaceful transfer of power should he lose to Democratic candidate Joe Biden. The tweet looked even worse a few hours after that, when Trump declared victory and falsely claimed the election was being stolen. If this happened elsewhere around the world, the United States would be the first to admonish a leader going rogue, as Pompeo just did. Even as it seems like Biden is about to win, the United States’ standing over the last four years has taken a battering, and it remains to be seen just how an incoming Biden administration would mend relations across the world, especially in Africa, where the Trump administration has not paid much attention to issues on the continent.

Wednesday, November 4, 3:45 p.m. ET
Mwanahamisi Singano, FEMNET, African Women's Development and Communication Network (@MSalimu)
Coming from witnessing and participating in elections in Tanzania, where all state apparatus were deployed to secure a win for president seeking reelection, it is refreshing to see the opposite in United States: the president seeking reelection constantly claiming rigging against him.

While there is still optimism that Biden might win, I am personally surprised that the race is so close. I would have assumed, with all Trump has displayed and done the past four years, it would have been a clear choice, a consensus of some sort that Americans and the world deserve better. What we are seeing and learning is how deep and engrained extreme right-wing beliefs are embedded in American society and a clear desire and commitment to make those beliefs part of public policies and public life.

Americans are not only voting for presidents as individual candidates, they are voting for fundamental issues: human rights, climate change, equality, anti-racism, gender equality, and the list goes on. For Americans to call themselves leaders of the free world, these issues should not be up for debate. It is sad to see millions of Americans voting for leaders who stand against these fundamental issues.

Last, the U.S. election reminds us, one more time, that strong man politics and populist leadership are happening in developed countries, not just the developing world.

Friday, November 6, 3:25 a.m. ET
David Hundeyin, Nigerian Journalist (@DavidHundeyin)
My biggest impression is that of a country suffering from a fundamental divide that may not actually be bridgeable. The turnout is the largest in at least two generations, and yet the result does not look to be in any way decisive.

Taking into account the reality that the election was largely fought on the basis of racial identity politics of the sort I am very familiar with over here in Nigeria, this speaks to a division that is no longer just political or cultural, but also civilizational. The United States is now essentially two different countries struggling against each other to impose their vision of what it should be.

From an African and specifically Nigerian point of view, President Trump's insistence on using a scorched earth approach to politicking is very bad news indeed. The United States has always been a very important moderating influence on the excesses of Africa's existing and budding dictatorships. By discrediting the independent electoral system and all but openly inciting his supporters to violence, Trump's actions serve to legitimize the worst parts of Africa's struggles with electoral democracy. Ultimately, I hope that Joe Biden, if he does win, will reassert the United States’ global commitment to promoting democracy and will ignore the predictable wall of faux indignation from the usual suspects accusing it of hypocrisy.

I also hope that the United States’ legal and regulatory systems will actually take on Donald Trump and ensure that he pays for at least some of the very open illegalities he has been responsible for, because that in itself would send a very powerful message to the developing world about the primacy of systems and processes over individuals.

Now the Donald is almost certainly on the way out and as a consequence will loose his Presidential Immunity, what should happen next?

One article I've read is that Biden should give him a pardon to put a line under the last 4 years. As he'd the quietly fade into history...

Personally I think, if only to demonstrate that such actions have consequences and the whole "rule of law" thing there should be an investigation and charges at Federal level where appropriate along with the State charges.

Either way I imagine The Donald will start the election campaign for 2024 in February 2021 which is after all his favourite part of being president.

What do other think is going to happen?

See Mr. Hundeyin above.

Those who seek from liberals a token of submission in earth and water will find plenty of both in a sewer. Donald Trump is veritably one of the most criminal Americans ever, and his administration has been similarly lawless. We cannot simply permit unlimited lawbreaking - and not just in service of personal venality but for open sedition! - from those in power or rule of law has no meaning and we're living in a Purge society that anyone can take advantage of so long as they have the position. It is a very sick society that affords impunity to the powerful by the measure of their power. We can't prosecute all the thousands of people who 'deserve' it, but Trump, his family, Barr - there's a minimum.

One Congressman has proposed something like a Presidential Crimes Commission. That would be less than the bare minimum. (Amusingly, it was announced immediately after the election that the US govt is investigating the Trump campaign for campaign law violations this year. Less amusing would be for these investigations not to be pursued in the criminal justice system.)

In a year with so many confounding turns, I am still confident the point is partially-mooted by Trump's inevitable pardon for himself/family/close associates.

He likes to campaign because he likes ripping people off. He raided his inauguration fund for cash, and started his 2020 campaign as soon as he got in office so the donations could continue to pour in.

It happens to be in our best interest if as many Republicans as possible funnel as much of their money as they can into his hole-ridden pockets.

I think the smart move would be to not go after Trump at the federal level, but also not pardon him.

As we discussed a year or so ago, it will be almost impossible to find a jury to convict properly, but it should be possible in an omnibus of charges to get at least some to stick (Manafort's skin was saved by a single dissenting juror, but only then on something like half the charges; even many redcaps have a limit). Such an omnibus case will take years to put together, and understandably a Biden admin may want to keep a lid on it (though such pressure from the top would be inappropriate in itself!) if a trial would be commencing and proceeding through the 2024 primaries and election season. The process would be acrimonious, draw a lot of media attention, and could well lead to a mistrial and do-over which wouldn't enhance public confidence. Worst case scenario the feds muck it up on some technical matter like they did with the Malheur Refuge/Bundy situation. So... maybe. Maybe it would be best to wait for if and when a Dem is reelected, even if many offenses fall through the floor of limitations by that time.

We can at least go after Don Jr, Kushner, and Ivanka - right?

[ReluctantSamurai]

Only in America:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ng-merchandise

“MAKE AMERICA RAKE AGAIN”, read one sticker on sale on the company website on Monday. It also featured the phrase “LAWN AND ORDER!” The stickers were selling for $5 each.

[Hooahguy]

Hey ho, hey ho, off to an attempted authoritarian coup we go!

Attorney General William P. Barr, wading into President Trump’s unfounded accusations of widespread election irregularities, told federal prosecutors on Monday that they were allowed to investigate “specific allegations” of voter fraud before the results of the presidential race are certified.

Mr. Barr’s authorization prompted the Justice Department official who oversees investigations of voter fraud, Richard Pilger, to step down from the post within hours, according to an email Mr. Pilger sent to colleagues that was obtained by The New York Times.

Mr. Barr said he had authorized “specific instances” of investigative steps in some cases. He made clear in a carefully worded memo that prosecutors had the authority to investigate, but he warned that “specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched claims should not be a basis for initiating federal inquiries.”

Mr. Barr’s directive ignored the Justice Department’s longstanding policies intended to keep law enforcement from affecting the outcome of an election. And it followed a move weeks before the election in which the department lifted a prohibition on voter fraud investigations before an election.

My next guess is that this is used to persuade electors to be faithless. I hope not but considering most Republicans are spineless cowards who are going along with this to keep Trump's base agitated, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens.

[ReluctantSamurai]

And seeing as how the GOP election committee is hurting for funds, "let's use taxpayer money to fund this bogus investigation." There is hardly a legal expert in the country that gives any of these lawsuits any chance. Even CoviDon's personal attorney Jay Sekulow has said:

[Addressing the prospect of the litigation reversing the result in favor of Biden, Sekulow was circumspect:] “You have to line up a lot of dominoes, as we say, would have to fall in the right direction for that to happen.”

Sekulow did not predict victory in the legal battle over the election, but he did say he expected the Supreme Court to wind up being the arbiter of whether Trump is reelected or defeated.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/1...allenge-435437

Anyone really surprised that all of this is simply a smokescreen for the real show, which is, as has been pointed out, getting electors to go rogue?

[Hooahguy]

Not surprised. The electors vote on December 14, meaning that the next 35 days will be the most dangerous in our history since the Civil War.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Now the Donald is almost certainly on the way out and as a consequence will loose his Presidential Immunity, what should happen next?

One article I've read is that Biden should give him a pardon to put a line under the last 4 years. As he'd the quietly fade into history...

Personally I think, if only to demonstrate that such actions have consequences and the whole "rule of law" thing there should be an investigation and charges at Federal level where appropriate along with the State charges.

Either way I imagine The Donald will start the election campaign for 2024 in February 2021 which is after all his favourite part of being president.

What do other think is going to happen?

First, I think we will see a fairly large slate of pardons coming out of the Oval in January. I would not be surprised if it included the name of Donald J. Trump.

I do not think he will wait to February to start the campaign. I am guessing late November.