Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Raskolnikov]

tbh you should be turboed in the unlikely event Monty doesn't flip wolf (because I go afk for 24h and you are setting me up for next day lol. u know even if you pretend to not seeing it, people read the thread and have witnessed the action. tinfoiling a slots for raisins won't do any good here. #forSunbae)

@hollowkatt: re Winston might have been a read list: remember this post from EOD1 where he said "Ladd/Newcomb/Montmorency were all good targets"? I do

*re Winston might have been a read list kill

[Raskolnikov]

my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore

(It's not happening sadly)

[Raskolnikov]

@Cuthillius

Remember the failure of Mass Effect? D4 we Tdome, I'm ousted, you're NKed, Visor MLed LYLO. Check yourself.



Winston's power level is even higher than Zack's, he routinely gets killed early as town.



die

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Why go after sorc? Sorc is more likely to get town killed than scum, and is less efficient than a plain vig. Moreover, waiting until D2 allows for rolefishing.



@WAGONOMICS



It's so strange that when I did this (D1 unvote killing scum) as town, which I surely always am, I was almost consensus cleared for it.



Setting up D4.



The only thing against me is the Newcomb flub, which while bad does not change the reality of prior interactions with known scum.



So the immediate point about this list is that from a scum-Katze POV:

D3: Mont
D4: Cape
D5: Cuth
D6: Dobby

is pretty much necessary. Although if neither katze nor none of those options are scum themselves then any scum would have to follow the same path, substituting katze for Cuth.

What I'm saying is that the POE is kind of rigid from almost any theory of the game.

Coolbean.gif

[Raskolnikov]

I mean, it feels like "hey that was a good plan, can't believe it didn't work here saddddddssssssss"

[Raskolnikov]

I hate this game tbh: because of Benneh's post, I am rereading EOD1 to check cuth's positionning, and I read Dobby's readlist gut clearing all flipped scums.

"monstrbro - town."

"EnderWiggin - I've had some big doubts on this slot because a lot of thought patterns have felt feigned (i translated the word from swedish sorry if its a dumb word that doesnt make sense) but the more i think about it i feel like it's probably just from a town mindset and if i go with gut this is just town yes."

"Ladd - I've been flipflopping on ladd, this post just had way more than id expect at that point, but maybe its just the ladd way of pumping out reads and then tweaking. His later posts just feel like they have the enthusiasm and "fire" that town ladd has, especially the more (for ladd) wordy ones, it's also a bit relaxed which is nice to see. Gut says town."

anyone has meta on wolf!Dobby? (don't say 1610 pls)

back to reading cuth's EOD :coffee:

[Raskolnikov]

i kinda still feel like dobby might be scum, but if so this is a work of genius

(speaking about the above read list)

[Raskolnikov]

Players Votes
Enderwiggin 4 Raskolnikov, zack, Montmorency, nebjiamn
Montmorency 2 Csargo, Sunbae
Sleep 2 ladd, Newcomb
Csargo 2 Cape90, hollowkatt
Newcomb 2 Enderwiggin, Sleep
Raskolnikov 2 Monstrdude, Cuthillius
hollowkatt 1 Dobby
zack 1 Winston Hughes
Dobby 0
Cuthillius 0
katze 0
Sunbae 0
Winston Hughes 0
ladd 0
Cape90 0
nebjiamn 0
Monstrdude 0


another tally, pls check to make sure its okay

gonna try tinkering with the formatting

_:00

Time to take this into my own hands.

Vote: Rask



Bold the leader?

This feels bad because from the competing wagons, I am prolly the one with the lower perceived skills AND have a locked vote on my face because monstr isn't coming back.

The reply to Visor also feels like it's precisaly the VC which triggered the vote switch from Monty. the VC with a clear incoming wolf lunch

I will check Monty's reads on me prior to this point once I am done with cuth's EOD.

[Raskolnikov]

(no post from cuth yet in my reread)
(so it feels good to lock Monty in the meantime )

Voting Newcomb is a dumb idea katze. Vote Ender instead.

this is prolly Monty's next post after having unvoted Ender to tie me up with him.

LOL

[Raskolnikov]

I have mixed feelings about most of you.



Is this a bit?

no...

You keep starting bare wagons.



Also, I'm reticent to even voice this, but I can't help but notice how the host declined to edit his tally even when you posted a new vote just seconds before.

Almost as if he KNEW you were about to change your vote.

yeah

but they're honest

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters

[Raskolnikov]

oh and more to the point if this is tryhard wolf bladescape i think that maintaining this level of play would be challenging in a way distinct from average in this playerlist

ie i'm happy with what i'm seeing today and i'm not super worried about him going super deep if w and i'm very happy with holding him to the precedent he set d1 in future phases

This post comes after what could be read as TMI reads on Newcomb and Cape.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

i'm very comfortable with calling cape strong v at this point and just making sure to look back in a day or two

this feels like it comes from v!newc some amount more often than not

But rn I am not seeing how Cuth goes from soft defending goon!Ender to bus sorcerer!Ladd.

...

Nah actually I see how he could have (w!Cuth sees that 1. Monstr is about to get banned and is LHF that isn't endgaming anyway 2. sees that Ender is not ending game too re the amount of heat he got D1 3. panicks at EOD when he sees the CFD on Ladd and thinks bussing hard here is the only path to victory). A possibility to me rn, nothing definitive though.

Moving on. :anothercoffee:

[Raskolnikov]

COntext

​Vote: Cuthillius

Cuth can you tell me about your rask read or link me to where you discuss it?

Compare this:

uh sure i can flesh it out once i catch up

off the top of my head his posting last night was pretty yawn and then he was pushing something i didn't like when i voted him

to this:

my issue is that

and this may be a factor of the playerlist composition

everyone feels super homogeneous in a way that's distinct from like thinking everyone's super towny or whatever

just there aren't. lines

there aren't divides which aren't necessarily that helpful but once you stack enough of them on top of each other people start popping out

there's like some of it in the org-specific group kiinda but even then it's. very non-discrete in a way that doesn't make me uncomfortable because i don't think we're like way off track necessarily but it's puzzling

last post feels like a preemptive back up reasonning to vote me out (with unfakable in-depht thinking lmao) because he may have felt something ugly could happen to him. dunno

moving on (rn I am still at Monty > above them all fwiw. I am just trying to see if "Cuth is a wolf" is an idea that matches what happened at EOD1, because I had the thought too N1 and Benneh's post was convincing. might as well test it because I don't want us to railroad Monty being lazy)

[Raskolnikov]

I think katze calling that post out is a good look for them btw. (independantly of Cuth's alignment, because the switch between the posts I just quoted from Cuth in terms of wording, thinking, etc... is noticeable)

[Raskolnikov]

no lol

here is another good look for our favorite cat (I am pretty sure they'd me as LHF as wolf. definatly if tied to zackito. so I'd expect w!katze to go with a "why? word salad" rather than "no lol")

[Raskolnikov]

Talk to me about why? I don't feel he's done anything that sticks out to me as super scummy.

CASE IN POINT lmao.

I am locking katze villa. took me a while but I am landing here.

[Raskolnikov]

I secretly hope Cuth is town tbh (I parked on Ender before going Cuth > ladd D1), because otherwise my LHF status will take a serious hit and I will have to shorten my posts and slack even harder as town. which is out of my range tbh. (u can switch Cuth for Monty, it works too)

apologies for this post btw. (I just had an ego pooping watching at the D1 VCs)

[Raskolnikov]

If you're so convinced I'm town, why do you seem so unimpressed by my case?

Caveat that I've skimmed very vaguely so if I missed something I apologise, but it feels like you've slapped this great big townread on me but have also completely ignored my actual push and has put a weak af townread on Newcomb

This feels indeed partnery (Ender self applpying MASSIVE TOWNREAD to his slot, and points out a bad move from wolfbuddy!Cuth to get him to work more and look better). Maybessssss

[nebjiamn]

vote: monty

just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me

[Raskolnikov]

OK Cuth you are full of crap lmao. The only mention about my slot in your ISO is the initial "lock villa"

what 180?

your point being?

i didn't say "i wrote a bunch of words about rask in my iso"

i said "i voted rask because his entrance was lackluster and he was pushing something i didn't like right before i voted him and i'll give it a closer look once i've caught up"

You are saying it now actually. What's the thing I was pushing you didn't like?

benneh

ender
katze
sunbae

monstr

cape
hk but this read is from early d1
newc

roro
sleep
zack

ladd

csargo

monty
winston

rask

and if you're saying to yourself "gee four orgers on the bottom of that list" guess what i've been saying to myself for the last like 24 hours too

alphabetical within tiers as always

ok tell me t!Cuth is gueninely solving here (compare the vote reason to my position in the read list, add the fact that before I started this convo with my subtile "you are full of crap", there was one mention of me in Cuth's ISO locking me villa for my opening shit post talking about shitposting - ur not up to my level @Dobby, surrender - )

---

tbh on reread I am liking this more and more. I can totally see how w!Cuth ends up bussing the AFK ladd. (because that's his only path to victory with Monstr/Ender positionning, his own positionning that was starting to be called out by me, sleep, WH and others, and the CFD on missing Ladd)

[nebjiamn]

Montmorency lunched


nebjiamn NK'd


kill katze


rask NK'd


kill cuth


sleep NK'd


F3:
hollowkatt , Dobby, Cape

[nebjiamn]

dead villagers don't know shit

​vote: cuth

[nebjiamn]

worst case scenario:

we lunch v!cuth who should basically be lock clear, open up the game for a boxed in wolf that should have 0 chance because they don't have enough miskills unless we kill cuth today, and we lose the game tragically in f3

that's not ... so bad?

[Raskolnikov]

vote: monty

just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me

"I refuse not to conf-bias myself"

[Raskolnikov]

So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?

for the love of all that is good in the world please just don't.

[Raskolnikov]

So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?

and also no it wouldn't tip the scale there in the slightest i already think you're probably town but that doesn't mean much about the validity of your read

sorry if sounds harsh

the most useful thing it would do is make me consider how newc's treated you this phase but off the top of my head i don't have big issues with that so

Compare Cuth's post in reply to Ender, to his reason to lock me scum. ("ur villa, but I don't think ur reads are of any value, Ender" vs "Rask, you are scum because I disagree with your push (on Ender))

[Raskolnikov]

what is the point of this post

Hearing your case actually, or even the reason you have to vote me.

why would i even have to have a reason to vote you?

oh i forgot about this post

i have a hard time reading monstr because his playstyle as a wolf is self-aware in a way distinct from a lot of people, and it's not just like being able to post like a villager would but genuinely intuitively generating stuff that he would think as a villager by maintaining a sort of self-aware distance while wolfing

meaning his wolf posts have a villagery flavor to them that is stronger than a lot of peoples' and it's similar enough to mine that i have a hard time ever trusting how i read it

vote: cuthillius

multiquote drama. Continuing in an incoming post.

[Raskolnikov]

@cuthilius: what did you mean in that post? you can't read monstr because?

@Cuthillius

oh i forgot about this post

i have a hard time reading monstr because his playstyle as a wolf is self-aware in a way distinct from a lot of people, and it's not just like being able to post like a villager would but genuinely intuitively generating stuff that he would think as a villager by maintaining a sort of self-aware distance while wolfing

meaning his wolf posts have a villagery flavor to them that is stronger than a lot of peoples' and it's similar enough to mine that i have a hard time ever trusting how i read it

ok. I still don't get the last sentence (like if you can isolate a pattern of posting which is AI for him, and it's a behaviour which is simular to yours, which arguably you can understand, why don't you trust that particular read?).

---

vote: Cuthillius

---

looking back i'm pretty sure i voted you primarily for

you'll never guess

your catchup being lackluster but mostly specifically this post

ender i've talked about more than enough

sunbae i think is pretty villagery but there's been enough waffling that it's conceivably something wolves feel absolutely fine going for

and monty is shrug it's fine but i don't super vibe with any of the people who feel more strongly about it than mild shrug and doesn't look good

and specifically i think these reads are presented from most to least objectionable

and in the absence of thinking any individuals are super wolfy i'm inclined to vote the people who are not actively villagery and who are also trying to kill people that a) i think are villagers and b) feel like villagers wolves would try to kill here

my "most objectionable read" was...

... wait for it...

...Ender, a wolf.

[Raskolnikov]

I need to go, but will come back to this and check the context of Cuth's vote on Ladd.

[Visor]

Players Votes

Montmorency 6 (Sleep, Dobby, Cuthillius, Cape90, hollowkatt, katze)
Cuthillius 2 (nebjiamn, Raskolnikov)
katze 1 (Montmorency)

[Raskolnikov]

looking back i'm pretty sure i voted you primarily for

you'll never guess

your catchup being lackluster but mostly specifically this post

ender i've talked about more than enough

sunbae i think is pretty villagery but there's been enough waffling that it's conceivably something wolves feel absolutely fine going for

and monty is shrug it's fine but i don't super vibe with any of the people who feel more strongly about it than mild shrug and doesn't look good

and specifically i think these reads are presented from most to least objectionable

and in the absence of thinking any individuals are super wolfy i'm inclined to vote the people who are not actively villagery and who are also trying to kill people that a) i think are villagers and b) feel like villagers wolves would try to kill here

ok so you are not poundering my alignment here. cool stuff. (because that's basically what you are doing here, you don't try to figure it out. why is me disagreeing with you about 3 specific slots makes me a wolf?)

it's not, i don't really have that much of a read on you

i'm voting you because i have an idea of who villagers are in this game and no real leads in any way on who the wolves are and so i'm voting people who aren't villagery and who are trying to kill villagers

that doesn't mean that your posts are wolfy it just means they're not villagery and you're trying to kill people i think are villagers and also in what could be an opportunistic way

OK, lets be real. These can come from a villager. Still, I can't shake out of my head some bits of it are absolutely disgustingly wolfy. Like the bold sentence. It perfectly matches what the challenge wolves face D1.

@Montmorency: I strongly suggest you hope on pal. katze is prolly villa and we really need a thunderdome toDay (we really need to yeet a wolf and end this game, but in the case we fail, we need that info)

[Raskolnikov]

it's kinda sad that both katze and benneh are voting me

that gets me down a bit

in terms of how i'm playing this game

i would be tempted to vote ladd but i think winston voting ladd just from the game perspective more broadly is vaguely wack and it makes me feel less great about it

rask is fine

otherwise csargo monty really just feel like uninteresting

i think if i had another hour i might feel good about going hk but right now i have a hard time i need to spend more time and there isn't more time

I don't know how though:

- these posts I quoted are consecutive. "no read on you" into "Rask is fine". it's possible, ngl.

why is ladd pushed over Monty/Csargo though? (compared to his last posted readlist)

vote: winston

1102

Players Votes

Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Newcomb 2 (Enderwiggin, Sleep)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
hollowkatt 2 (Dobby, Csargo)
Raskolnikov 2 (Monstrdude, Montmorency)
ladd 1 (Winston Hughes)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
Winston Hughes 1 (Cuthillius)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Cuthillius 1 (Raskolnikov)

there's basically zero upside if newc flips v

given the way basically everyone's handled him

ok fair

you were like hm maybe we can go newc here? or something

and i was like

what

vote: ladd

---

So, as I said earlier, I totally get how w!Cuth ends up bussing in this gamestate (Ender widely sussed, Monstr banned, Ladd afk). It's a win strat when Ladd flips.

What is giving me pause is why resist the Newcomb pushes? It's very possible to get away with his ML D1 I guess? And it'd be arguably good for the wolf pack.

---

"why is ladd pushed over Monty/Csargo though? (compared to his last posted readlist)": I reread Benneh's post (Benneh's post) and I think he might be right.

Cuth's switch on me and gearing up on Ladd is just after this VC, which suggest Cuth is about to eat it.