Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Raskolnikov]

/End of Spam.

Cuth, sorry if wrong. You have time to change my mind.

[hollowkatt]

*re Winston might have been a read list kill

I do remember that. I think winston is combo reads, spk, "never getting chopped", and "killed our PR"

[Dobby]

K I?ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he?ll flip v

im gonna die and you?re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn?t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn?t catch on.

I?ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

I think similar cases can be built around... everyone tbh? I mean both you and I had votes and thoughts that didn't gully align with what we had said previously

If it's cuth gamed gonna be extremely hard

[Dobby]

No one else is mafia

except monty

and kat

and cape

and dobby

but no one else

Stop taking me out of the clears

[Dobby]

I hate this game tbh: because of Benneh's post, I am rereading EOD1 to check cuth's positionning, and I read Dobby's readlist gut clearing all flipped scums.

"monstrbro - town."

"EnderWiggin - I've had some big doubts on this slot because a lot of thought patterns have felt feigned (i translated the word from swedish sorry if its a dumb word that doesnt make sense) but the more i think about it i feel like it's probably just from a town mindset and if i go with gut this is just town yes."

"Ladd - I've been flipflopping on ladd, this post just had way more than id expect at that point, but maybe its just the ladd way of pumping out reads and then tweaking. His later posts just feel like they have the enthusiasm and "fire" that town ladd has, especially the more (for ladd) wordy ones, it's also a bit relaxed which is nice to see. Gut says town."

anyone has meta on wolf!Dobby? (don't say 1610 pls)

back to reading cuth's EOD :coffee:

Yeah my gut sucks but I also had a few posts sussing ender and later on way more me-ender stuff that were just very anti eachother. When It comes to ladd I kept coming back to a read based off his early "faked" posts vs thinking he played with more oomph compared to his recent wolfgames.

And regarding monstr the read was just a "he doesn't tilt the fuxk out like this is he's a wolf" but he did


Wolfing means i can control my moves and generally the state of the mafia game pretty well, in general. There are a few mu wolf games but mainly maybe sf in champs 2 years ago I guess where we swept.

I had a gut list and a non gut list btw, and both ender and ladd were bottom tier in the non gut list but that probably doesn't mean anything atp

[Dobby]

here is another good look for our favorite cat (I am pretty sure they'd me as LHF as wolf. definatly if tied to zackito. so I'd expect w!katze to go with a "why? word salad" rather than "no lol")

I'm not sure I'm following your thought process here (you're mentioning posts I have a hard time finding) but I think majority of the playerlist would've answered like this

CASE IN POINT lmao.

I am locking katze villa. took me a while but I am landing here.

I don't understand this conclusion either from you, van you put it in one post pls so my smol brain can vibe with it

[hollowkatt]

I think similar cases can be built around... everyone tbh? I mean both you and I had votes and thoughts that didn't gully align with what we had said previously

If it's cuth gamed gonna be extremely hard

which is why today is the day to chop cuth
vote: Cuthillius
@Raskolnikov good case.

I have played with wolf cuth at least twice. The first time was a smallish light game where he was wolf with michelle and dizzy and in that game he was pretty solvy and very hard to catch.

In Ice Cream Teams otoh his play is very similar to his play here. Short posts, quick thoughts, not a whole lot of meat on the bone to interact with, meek pushes.

I'm in

[hollowkatt]

also @Raskolnikov stop doing coffee tells or I'm going to chop you

[Dobby]

ok tell me t!Cuth is gueninely solving here (compare the vote reason to my position in the read list, add the fact that before I started this convo with my subtile "you are full of crap", there was one mention of me in Cuth's ISO locking me villa for my opening shit post talking about shitposting - ur not up to my level @Dobby, surrender - )

---

tbh on reread I am liking this more and more. I can totally see how w!Cuth ends up bussing the AFK ladd. (because that's his only path to victory with Monstr/Ender positionning, his own positionning that was starting to be called out by me, sleep, WH and others, and the CFD on missing Ladd)

I was vibing with a w! Rask world d1 as well (I mena i voted You because hk didn't get voted by anyone) so I'm nit that amazed by this, but I'll say I paid very little attention to cuth past my tonal read on him.

I still think cuth should get more cred for his exchange with monstr, I feel like he's just not felt super invested in this game and that's not a wolfy thing per se. I mean I still haven't read a lot of the posts in the game and can't make informed comments on some things but that also doesn't mean I am not putting in effort. You choose your fights or smth

[Dobby]

vote: monty

just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me

This but also THIS

Can we just chop monty and not make the game harder than it needs to be ( I saw a few votes on other people and fuck that tbh)

Because I think we have like 8 different preferences rn and all the smart dead ppl have been lying for montys head for a long time and it just needs to happen

Pwetty pwease

[hollowkatt]

This but also THIS

Can we just chop monty and not make the game harder than it needs to be ( I saw a few votes on other people and fuck that tbh)

Because I think we have like 8 different preferences rn and all the smart dead ppl have been lying for montys head for a long time and it just needs to happen

Pwetty pwease

chops, in any order, that I would support: monte, cuth, cape

I'm thinking about what happens if/when monte doesn't end the game, who wakes up in the morning, etc.

[Dobby]

---

vote: Cuthillius

---




my "most objectionable read" was...

... wait for it...

...Ender, a wolf.

I'm proly gona look really dumb when cuth flips w but

Throwing more of my pride away here


I feel like you've kinda buried yourself into a hole here where you see you past conflict thingie with cuth and jump back into the same mindset. The things you call out don't feel like anything significant for me. You post some back and forths that don't look like anything and then draw q conclusion because he was kinda wrong?

[Dobby]

OK, lets be real. These can come from a villager. Still, I can't shake out of my head some bits of it are absolutely disgustingly wolfy. Like the bold sentence. It perfectly matches what the challenge wolves face D1.

@Montmorency: I strongly suggest you hope on pal. katze is prolly villa and we really need a thunderdome toDay (we really need to yeet a wolf and end this game, but in the case we fail, we need that info)

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

[Dobby]

which is why today is the day to chop cuth
vote: Cuthillius
@Raskolnikov good case.

I have played with wolf cuth at least twice. The first time was a smallish light game where he was wolf with michelle and dizzy and in that game he was pretty solvy and very hard to catch.

In Ice Cream Teams otoh his play is very similar to his play here. Short posts, quick thoughts, not a whole lot of meat on the bone to interact with, meek pushes.

I'm in

Rasks case made no sense at all lol

Bennehs case was really good and something a smol brain like me could understand too


But there's still monty and cuth doesn't go before monty in any reasonable word

[hollowkatt]

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

generally speaking raskol cases are not "could this player be a wolf" they are "this is why this player is a wolf"

[nebjiamn]

dobby just SHEP

[Dobby]

generally speaking raskol cases are not "could this player be a wolf" they are "this is why this player is a wolf"

so why does he criticise cuth for doing just that

to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town.


I mean if im going to keep presenting gut reads, yeah gut read now says cuth w but i still see monty w over cuth.

dobby just SHEP

im sheping the wise dead townies and so shoul dyou

[hollowkatt]

so why does he criticise cuth for doing just that

to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town.


I mean if im going to keep presenting gut reads, yeah gut read now says cuth w but i still see monty w over cuth.



im sheping the wise dead townies and so shoul dyou

To me chopping Monte is a foregone conclusion. I like that Rask is talking about Cuth b/c that jibes with my feelings earlier this game.
I don't think anyone is doing anything as dumb as clearing Monte here. Monte is going to die. Highly likely that's today and highly likely it ends the game.

If it doesn't end the game then we can review today again in light of who isn't with us and go from there. I would argue Cuth is a reasonable suspect. I would also argue that Cape is a reasonable suspect on account of Cape really only turning up the solving when they're under some amount of pressure.

I would say that neb, dobby, katze, sleep, rask should not be considered as possible wolves until and unless we have gone through monte, cuth, cape first. And at that point it's F3 anyways.

[hollowkatt]

my vote on cuth is a solidarity/signaling vote that I think cuth has wolf potential. I want monte dead today.

[Dobby]

i was doing something and then noted this, ill keep doing that something but i wanted to get this out in a separate post


quoting relevant part of the readslist post from katze

..........

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. [text deleted]

scond clear would still be benneh - [text deleted]

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it

---

so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like [insert more text]

That's pretty quickly followed by this post when i ask if im in her poe

i don't really think you're mafia i just personally have more concrete reasons to townread 6 people over you and probably would have/literally wanted you dead d2/early d3 if not for sunbaes shield

if i were going off of just last day phase and this one you'd probably be in the top 5 over... cuth or sleep?

idk. my point is more "i think it's in the bottom 2" than anything else and if it's not i'd be more willing to Put In Effort ig[more irrelevant text cut out]

This shift doesn't.... make sense. If it's just a reaction that kat takes two steps back in response to me pushing back/asking why im in poe that leads to the shift it... doesn't make sense for katze, i think? And if it's not as a reaction to my reaction, i still don't understand what would lead to that? I'm not saying it's scummy im just saying it exists and im not sure why

[Dobby]

To me chopping Monte is a foregone conclusion. I like that Rask is talking about Cuth b/c that jibes with my feelings earlier this game.
I don't think anyone is doing anything as dumb as clearing Monte here. Monte is going to die. Highly likely that's today and highly likely it ends the game.

If it doesn't end the game then we can review today again in light of who isn't with us and go from there. I would argue Cuth is a reasonable suspect. I would also argue that Cape is a reasonable suspect on account of Cape really only turning up the solving when they're under some amount of pressure.

I would say that neb, dobby, katze, sleep, rask should not be considered as possible wolves until and unless we have gone through monte, cuth, cape first. And at that point it's F3 anyways.

i mightve very well said clearing monty at some point earlier but definitely didnt mean that - i am just still arguing against yoinking cuth over monty. I think atp (even though i flipflop a lot) cuth is also my second preferred yoink but cuth/kat/cape keep contesting eachother for that spot.


the solidarity thing i understand, i just cant shake off the feeling we'll have a new newcomb situation tongiht and thats why i seem to be so passionate about this thing, because i think i am

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not sure I'm following your thought process here (you're mentioning posts I have a hard time finding) but I think majority of the playerlist would've answered like this



I don't understand this conclusion either from you, van you put it in one post pls so my smol brain can vibe with it

I didn't remember Ender's post when I reread Katze's one. I thought w!katze would have strenghtened Winston's gut read and push, softly, not directly. Guess what flipped wolf Ender did a few post below replying to that katze's post? exactly that. Even starting his post with how I'd imagine a wolf would write it.

so I am OK with having katze as town, if that makes sense.

[Raskolnikov]

I was vibing with a w! Rask world d1 as well (I mena i voted You because hk didn't get voted by anyone) so I'm nit that amazed by this, but I'll say I paid very little attention to cuth past my tonal read on him.

I still think cuth should get more cred for his exchange with monstr, I feel like he's just not felt super invested in this game and that's not a wolfy thing per se. I mean I still haven't read a lot of the posts in the game and can't make informed comments on some things but that also doesn't mean I am not putting in effort. You choose your fights or smth

just to be clear, my ping was a joke about u being jealous not being invited to the shitposting F3 by HK

[Dobby]

Montmorency lunched


nebjiamn NK'd


kill katze


rask NK'd


kill cuth


sleep NK'd


F3:
hollowkatt , Dobby, Cape

dont you mean kill cuth -> kill katze?

[Dobby]

just to be clear, my ping was a joke about u being jealous not being invited to the shitposting F3 by HK

i got that part, i didnt get the rest :wowee:. I think i kinda do get the explanation but it doesn't feel like a big/meaningful thing

[Dobby]

@Raskolnikov do you have any thoughts on cape? he's been after you a huge chunk of at least today and you don't really have anything in response to that, nor much mention of cape at all (unless my searching through posts skills suck butt). Where would you place him from a poe/clears standpoint?

[Raskolnikov]

I'm proly gona look really dumb when cuth flips w but

Throwing more of my pride away here


I feel like you've kinda buried yourself into a hole here where you see you past conflict thingie with cuth and jump back into the same mindset. The things you call out don't feel like anything significant for me. You post some back and forths that don't look like anything and then draw q conclusion because he was kinda wrong?

no. I tryed to show how partnery he have been with Ender, and why he would have to bus Ladd here to have a chance with how the wolves were having an hard time at EOD1 (sussed, banned, leading VC, afk).

[Raskolnikov]

@Raskolnikov do you have any thoughts on cape? he's been after you a huge chunk of at least today and you don't really have anything in response to that, nor much mention of cape at all (unless my searching through posts skills suck butt). Where would you place him from a poe/clears standpoint?

I think he is villa by vertue of lacking self-awareness kinda. I think he has derped convincingly too earlier (thinking Winston and me were the same person for instance).

my POE rn: Cuth > Monty. You and him are next if the game isn't over by then I guess.

[Raskolnikov]

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

I disagree lol. Maybe a language thing (I can read English fairly well, writing it is another thing, and I too lazy to increase my level to finer stages where I could write cases filled with fancy words tbh), but my goal is to demonstrate why cuth being a wolf is a definative possibility. Monty is too but for reasons which can be dismissed by a simple TWTBAW (his unvote, his opening post, etc...).

Sell him to me I guess.

[Raskolnikov]

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

Beside, it's not the same thing. I am definatly trying to explain why he is/could be a wolf. He was voting me out D1 without much of a reason (outside sussing and parking Ender for a good chunck of the day. u can look for my posts about Ender fwiw. I know it's pain since we can ISO only the most recent 100 posts but hey, u can still do it).
He was voting me out because he thought I was wrong (yeah he said I was looking opportunisticly looking for a towny ML... when I had barely posted D1 because I had friendos that week end at home). That's not evaluating my alignment.

Beside, from where this confidence comes from (that I am misreading villagers and going for ML)? Look again his post to Ender saying he is town for raisins despite his crap reads, and compare his treatment of Ender's slot, compared to mine (I quoted it in the last couple of pages). Look again why he turnarounded finally saying "Rask is fine"... etc

Is it really the same thing? I don't think so.