Sufjan 10er [Game Thread]

[dyachei]

fwiw I think you're expecting a lot out of visor, mischief. In the last game we played together, i didnt really recall your exact play and it was hard to use meta on you as a result. don't you think it could be the same for visor here? why have expectations about how you specifically play when you had a long hiatus?

[Sunbae]

Dya's entrance seems good

[Mischief]

I read his posts and he's not in his wolf meta

Idk, I can't really explain it. He's taking the game as it comes and not forcing reads imo. it's based on gut feels to a degree

Me: Long winded explanation of why I think wolf visor would have forced a read on Insomnia and therefore is a town read which nobody really reads all the way through

Dya: visor v, not forcing it, cant explain more

One day I'll learn to be succinct and concise and will ascend to a new werewolf form

To both of you, what are your thoughts, then, in regard to his vote on me, and perhaps my vote on him.
I don't see his position on me as all that believable, but I am open to opinions there.

And Sunbae, I actually prefer the long winded explanations, because I have less of a "wait, what?" reaction upon seeing them.
It at least provides more to dissect, which is appreciated.

[Ephemeral]

sup

[Mischief]

fwiw I think you're expecting a lot out of visor, mischief. In the last game we played together, i didnt really recall your exact play and it was hard to use meta on you as a result. don't you think it could be the same for visor here? why have expectations about how you specifically play when you had a long hiatus?

That is true, I was gone for quite a while, so perhaps I am being a bit unfair in that respect.
I don't retain meta enormously well either, so I'm fairly certain I had something of a reset upon returning.
I'll unvote for now and mull it over.
​unvote: Visor

[Ephemeral]

Official Tally as of #135

2 Mischief (Totally not Taffy, Visor)

1 Lantana (EnderWiggin)
1 Raskolnikov (Lantana)
1 Totally not Taffy (Raskolnikov)
1 Visor (Mischief)

Not Voting: dyachei, Ephemeral, insomnia, Sunbae

Day 1 ends in

someone's up to mischief

[Mischief]

sup

Sup?
Should be interesting to see what you're like in a non-mash setting.

[Ephemeral]

Sup?
Should be interesting to see what you're like in a non-mash setting.

just as devilishly handsome, I assure you

[Sunbae]

To both of you, what are your thoughts, then, in regard to his vote on me, and perhaps my vote on him.
I don't see his position on me as all that believable, but I am open to opinions there.

And Sunbae, I actually prefer the long winded explanations, because I have less of a "wait, what?" reaction upon seeing them.
It at least provides more to dissect, which is appreciated.

I think a lot of times we all think others have better meta on us than they really do. Time between games, dozens and dozens of other players to remember, etc all vying for the same space and we can't remember it all. I guess what I'm saying is, I think reads of "villager them would know this is my villa range" should be used few and far between and reserved to people that have consistently gotten you correct against the grain and have shown an understanding of exactly why they were correct.

For instance, if Visor voted me on day 1 because I seemed aloof or scatterbrained, I would panic about it. He's the person that I think reads me the best out of anyone on any site I've ever played on because he genuinely understands my process, ideas, and what I aim to accomplish. And he's done it over years, in really hard spots to be right on (he villa read me after I counterclaimed angel on the angel and got them chopped ffs). That's not to say Visor voting me day 1 in general would panic me (you feel things out in werewolf and its cool) but just with that specific reasoning due to meta. Pretty much nobody else would garner that reaction from me.

As for your vote on him, I understand your pov. You thought it was weird, that he should know better, and voted. I just currently don't think it's correct (I mean maybe it is, but I just don't think the reasoning was right even if so? if that makes sense).

[dyachei]

That is true, I was gone for quite a while, so perhaps I am being a bit unfair in that respect.
I don't retain meta enormously well either, so I'm fairly certain I had something of a reset upon returning.
I'll unvote for now and mull it over.
​unvote: Visor

i mean vote him if you want to, but I just thought your reasoning was a bit much

[Totally not Taffy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Attachment 25574

I have been asked for cat pics and I shall deliver after all.

Aw

Attachment 25575Attachment 25576
My cat Cersei.

Your cats are gorgeous!

And I see I was right to stay up for SoD or I would've missed out on all the fun. Will be back soon with reads.

[Sunbae]

Vote: rask

[Totally not Taffy]

When I read this initially, I assumed there was no real reasoning behind this, being so early.
Now that there are more posts, is this a read you actually have at this point, and if so why?
What is your overall experience with Ender?

It was a joke in reference to the bet I lost to Roskalnikov (where I bet Ender was town and he wasn't):

I can get taffy in here if you want. He owes me a game because of Ender's openwolfing () in MU qualifier lmao.

Ender is the only person here that I actually know as in have played a few games with (on Giantitp). I was always going to make that joke tbh, I like to come up with a first post before I get randed (and the reference to the "Tallest Man, Broadest Shoulders" song was always going to be the follow-up).

I'm going to re-read the game and I'll have reads after, they might be a wall.

[dyachei]

Vote: rask

reasons?

[Sunbae]

reasons?

No big case or anything. Just feels/vibes based on our last game and my reads in this one.

[Totally not Taffy]

Awesome!

What sites have you played on?

A long, long time ago, when Goblins still had a forum with a gaming subforum, we played serial killer games there. More recently I've started playing proper WW on Giantitp. I have an MU account but I've not actually played there yet.

You?

Have you heard of a player called Ladd?

Vote: EnderWiggin

So, this exchange led me astray: I left with the wrong impression that Visor is Ladd?s alt and that?s why they weren?t amused. From there I figured that if Lantana were a wolf, they wouldn?t do something that could annoy the one player in the thread at that time who was obviously not there for funposting. But then I saw that Ladd was in the Sorceror game that Visor hosted recently and that this towny feeling I got was entirely based on the wrong premise.

On top of that, while it is good to want to know where a new player has played before so you can compare their playstyle, not reciprocating is nagl. I don?t want to call this scummy yet but it?s also not pro-town.

Ladd's presence indicates my wolfiness, got it.

Do you think Visor was being serious and is being serious or not serious more likely to indicate alignment one way or another?

My response is "Vague wave, shrug, glance."

Also yeah, Org is relatively laid back compared to other places.

This was an excellent question to try to get into the mindset of the other player and a typical Ender answer (and btw I?d like to take this opportunity to express how much I appreciate that you left the cryptic bastard persona at home when you were representing us in champs )

I?d prefer not to vote Lantana today tbh, despite some misgivings. Mostly so I get a chance to recover properly from my mistake and get to a read that's fair.

[Sunbae]

Ender may have represented you well in champs and won and been widely regarded as awesome by all of us watching, but I would like you to know that between the two of us only one of us was part of a champs sweep. So ha! Take that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

i was on the wrong side of the sweep

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

hello darkness my old friend

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

<3 ender

[Mischief]

I think a lot of times we all think others have better meta on us than they really do. Time between games, dozens and dozens of other players to remember, etc all vying for the same space and we can't remember it all. I guess what I'm saying is, I think reads of "villager them would know this is my villa range" should be used few and far between and reserved to people that have consistently gotten you correct against the grain and have shown an understanding of exactly why they were correct.

For instance, if Visor voted me on day 1 because I seemed aloof or scatterbrained, I would panic about it. He's the person that I think reads me the best out of anyone on any site I've ever played on because he genuinely understands my process, ideas, and what I aim to accomplish. And he's done it over years, in really hard spots to be right on (he villa read me after I counterclaimed angel on the angel and got them chopped ffs). That's not to say Visor voting me day 1 in general would panic me (you feel things out in werewolf and its cool) but just with that specific reasoning due to meta. Pretty much nobody else would garner that reaction from me.

As for your vote on him, I understand your pov. You thought it was weird, that he should know better, and voted. I just currently don't think it's correct (I mean maybe it is, but I just don't think the reasoning was right even if so? if that makes sense).

That's reasonable.
From what I remember in past games, back when I was a lot more easily ML'd, Visor would use things that at least at the time weren't AI as a wolf to push a ML on me, so the thought that he might be doing something similar here immediately struck me.
That said, it would be quite understandable to forget my writing and play style after over a year of time away from mafia, so what would in a context where I never left Mafia perhaps be a valid case (assuming he and I continued playing in the same games during that time), I can see not being the case here.

That said, both you and now Dya are in my villa reads, and I trust both of your judgements on Visor than I do my own, and concede the unreasonableness of my position, so I will focus elsewhere.
Better to detach from that before I get into a deathtunnel that wreaks havoc on the outcome of the game.
If you, Dya, and Visor are all villagers, this game should be pretty manageable.

[Totally not Taffy]

Ok having all of my 's changed into ?s and not getting to edit sucks.

I was hungry.
I got Raising Cane's, then a friend talked my ear off for hours about Star Wars and 18th century politics.
Though what you said is true, so I'm not going to contest it.

At first I liked this response and then paranoia kicked in and said "but what if it's a really good wolf who knows how to respond to early sussing in a way that seems sincere?". I come to the conclusion that playing with people I don't know is hard.

I was planning on heading out, but I figured I'd post here first, so people know that I haven't forgotten about this game altogether, being my first game on this site.
A little assurance that I won't be 0-poster.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. What made me vote for you was that coming in just to show presence when you know you're going to leave right after and without actually interacting gives the impression that you feel under pressure to show up. Being new to the site would do that (hello!).

Can I just Unvote: Mischief or do I need to immediately vote someone else?

[insomnia]

i have some time now and also have to make a sleeping vote , sad times i have no clue who to go for

sunbae can u explain the dya read? i thought them hard starting with their second post being visor village was a touch weird

lantana i remember reading your post and idk what you're asking me. i also don't know if they were shading me or wat

i kinda wanna say mischief / sunbae / visor i wouldn't yeet, kinda sucky dya and eph couldn't post more when i had time to watch thread (btw for people who don't know im euro and im only here for a few mins as well)

[insomnia]

altho dya saying "vote him if u want, just ur reasons were wrong" or smth of the sort funnily seems like a good look

[Sunbae]

That's reasonable.
From what I remember in past games, back when I was a lot more easily ML'd, Visor would use things that at least at the time weren't AI as a wolf to push a ML on me, so the thought that he might be doing something similar here immediately struck me.
That said, it would be quite understandable to forget my writing and play style after over a year of time away from mafia, so what would in a context where I never left Mafia perhaps be a valid case (assuming he and I continued playing in the same games during that time), I can see not being the case here.

That said, both you and now Dya are in my villa reads, and I trust both of your judgements on Visor than I do my own, and concede the unreasonableness of my position, so I will focus elsewhere.
Better to detach from that before I get into a deathtunnel that wreaks havoc on the outcome of the game.
If you, Dya, and Visor are all villagers, this game should be pretty manageable.

I want to be very clear here. I am not saying visor lock v never rescind sponge this read when I die. I am saying that I feel like visor has been fine, I have reasons to villa read there currently, and I don't think your reasons for voting there are quite right. The read I do think I want sponged if I die is "visor/insomnia are not w/w" because I think that entire interaction as w/w theater leads to * something * instead of the big shrug move on fest no reads either way that it was.

i have some time now and also have to make a sleeping vote , sad times i have no clue who to go for

sunbae can u explain the dya read? i thought them hard starting with their second post being visor village was a touch weird

lantana i remember reading your post and idk what you're asking me. i also don't know if they were shading me or wat

i kinda wanna say mischief / sunbae / visor i wouldn't yeet, kinda sucky dya and eph couldn't post more when i had time to watch thread (btw for people who don't know im euro and im only here for a few mins as well)

I thought dya came in with villagery fire instead of going through the early wolf game checklist. It was a gut read in the moment, don't know how much I should listen to it really. Just felt like "oh yeah, thats the stuff" and rolled with it.

[Mischief]

Where I'm at with reads:
Dya, Sunbae and Visor:
I'm going to lump all three together because all three are connected in this thought process.
Sunbae I thought was independently villagery, and to an extent Dya as well.
There are only two scum, so all three can't be scum.
If all three are capable of reading each other well, and all arrive at similar conclusions as each other (Visor hasn't addressed Dya yet, but still), it's more probable that they are villagers in this instance, than it is that two of them are scum and are fooling the people in the thread who are most likely to have a correct read on them.
I think that Dya's points regarding Vsor/myself are more likely to come from a village perspective.
So despite heavily distrusting Visor push on me, I hesitantly conclude that Visor is more likely a villager.

Ender: null
Insomnia: Needs to post more
Lantana: light v read, mostly tone, will evolve as substance is provided one way or another.
Rask: null
Taffy: null
Ephemeral: not enough posts/content to have an opinion there. (what little there is seems pretty up beat and comfortable, which may be promising, but extremely inconclusive)


My D1 POE is currently largely Ender, Rask, and Taffy, I think Taffy is an outlier in this group.
Maybe Insomnia, but with as much as they are D1 wagoned, and with as little there is to dissect from them, I'm not likely voting here today, unless they show up at EOD and provide something worth wagoning.
Would like to see more from Taffy, Rask, Ender, as well as Insomnia and Ephemeral.
If Rask is scum I could potentially see Ender as the partner there, and vice versa.


It's definitely a bit of a different feel on this site.

[Raskolnikov]

Why is your question to me not really phrased as a question but more a demand for information? Am I wrong in thinking there isn?t some negative weight to the demand?

Nya if I misread!

I didn?t really have a particular reason for Raskolnikov nor was it to generate discussion either! Though it?s always nice when life delivers lemons as is the case right now :3

Yes @Sunbae, its this one post.

Because insomnia reasoning seems valid to me, like lanfantana had been around and had stuff to comment on, but instead decided to park on me out of an rvs vote when we have zero history. Weird.

[insomnia]

Prolly gonna reread it but one wolf in Lantana/taffy.

Wondering if Visor being defensive and willing to articulate read so early is AI or a product of the 24h lenght phase

@Ender: taffy because I am not sure his villa read on you was a joke and his ISO looks filled with posts made to post Id say.

Lantana because of the focus on visor (weird meta read from katze too lol. Visor liked it, I really didnt: i think he isnt ez to read and if you ask someone about him, you arent likely to come and sheep/use it this way). Also there is a post looking blatantly like a shade on insomnia.

Finally their early banter looked like ww to me. Dunno, it was straight up at the start, but they arent probbing or trying to figure each other out.

Now back to F1

gave rask a re-read #forsunbae. i take issue mostly with the things in red.

the first visor thing seems like a disconnected thought that wouldn't really make it in the same post where he's calling people out (this is a bit nitpicky)

the second thing he drops in "they shaded insomnia" without any explanation for why that should be wolfy. i see no gears spinning that got rask to believe it was from a wolf agenda or to attempt to distinguish between wolf / town motivation. just said lantana did it and it's supposed to be wolfy. also in the same line from the start he frames it as lantana being wolfy for focusing on visor, then he adds the most important part about why that should be wolfy (the katze meta) like it would be a plus to the visor thing. it just doesn't seem..genuine tho im sure there's a better word


normally i'd place this on the backburner and ponder upon but i really have to go and place a vote

Vote : Raskolnikov

[Mischief]

I want to be very clear here. I am not saying visor lock v never rescind sponge this read when I die. I am saying that I feel like visor has been fine, I have reasons to villa read there currently, and I don't think your reasons for voting there are quite right. The read I do think I want sponged if I die is "visor/insomnia are not w/w" because I think that entire interaction as w/w theater leads to * something * instead of the big shrug move on fest no reads either way that it was.



I thought dya came in with villagery fire instead of going through the early wolf game checklist. It was a gut read in the moment, don't know how much I should listen to it really. Just felt like "oh yeah, thats the stuff" and rolled with it.

I know, there's no reason to lock V Visor in almost any instance this early in the game.
Still, it's probably better for now to avoid getting into a tunnel on his slot, and if he is a villager, the game is better off having him alive.
Still, for the time being I feel comfortable accepting that I may have been wrong on my assessment and solving outside of that.

[Raskolnikov]

Mischief: why am I POE lol?

[insomnia]

Yes @Sunbae, its this one post.

Because insomnia reasoning seems valid to me, like lanfantana had been around and had stuff to comment on, but instead decided to park on me out of an rvs vote when we have zero history. Weird.

i'll be honest i did call this out too, it's def omega weird

[Raskolnikov]

gave rask a re-read #forsunbae. i take issue mostly with the things in red.

the first visor thing seems like a disconnected thought that wouldn't really make it in the same post where he's calling people out (this is a bit nitpicky)

the second thing he drops in "they shaded insomnia" without any explanation for why that should be wolfy. i see no gears spinning that got rask to believe it was from a wolf agenda or to attempt to distinguish between wolf / town motivation. just said lantana did it and it's supposed to be wolfy. also in the same line from the start he frames it as lantana being wolfy for focusing on visor, then he adds the most important part about why that should be wolfy (the katze meta) like it would be a plus to the visor thing. it just doesn't seem..genuine tho im sure there's a better word


normally i'd place this on the backburner and ponder upon but i really have to go and place a vote

Vote : Raskolnikov

Read the post above this one?

[Mischief]

Ok having all of my 's changed into ?s and not getting to edit sucks.




At first I liked this response and then paranoia kicked in and said "but what if it's a really good wolf who knows how to respond to early sussing in a way that seems sincere?". I come to the conclusion that playing with people I don't know is hard.



Yes, this makes perfect sense. What made me vote for you was that coming in just to show presence when you know you're going to leave right after and without actually interacting gives the impression that you feel under pressure to show up. Being new to the site would do that (hello!).

Can I just Unvote: Mischief or do I need to immediately vote someone else?

I could understand why someone would be paranoid of that, so I didn't think it was suspicious to vote there.
I never mind all that much votes that seem to come from an understandable perspective since I assume they will get more of a feel for things as time progresses.
Also, hi