17er Saints and Martyrs

[Arctic]

i'm kinda sponging everyone on the visor wolfreads. the reasons just seem good and i agree visor was lacking impact yesterday. i think him or GH are my preferred votes atm

GH's posting just... seems really safe today? and as i'm catching up he still hasn't said who he thinks is mafia - i think he should have some more kind of.. urgency, or some sense of direction if he's townreading both logic and visor (judging from 832, or he's at least not sure on visor) but idrk what he's doing. he's just kinda angling around both logic and visor but it's not clear who he actually thinks is mafia

ngl the wolfiest thing about logic is that i don't think he had any reaction to zack flipping v when he was pretty tunneled there which. but like. i dunno. reading hally's post it seems the sus on him comes from not playing in a way that they'd expect the perfect villager to, but i just remember logic being generally weird and hitting a lot of level 0 scumtells so i'm not really convinced. the most convincing reason for them to be mafia is how wolves didn't do anything to try and kill him over syn, but in the world he's town it's possible wolves had locked themselves into townreading logic - like GH, who i think can probably be mafia

someone pulled up a quote of logic trying to omgus visor in another game so i don't think the lack of trying to engage with the people who sus him is really a wolftell, if anything the wolftell here is how he went less hard on zack in this game but it feels silly to actually call this wolfy

outside of this i still sus gemma and their last wall kinda reminded me that i thought they were wolfy lol. i still don't townread dya but i'm fine laying off there for reasons. i don't really have a read on wisdom but i feel like if she's mafia something would have come up by now. i like her recent thoughts on logic in 878, and even if i dont really understand the perspective slip thing i think the read's existence is villagery. rask was the main pusher of syn iirc so i was probably trolling there, same with ladd

i did feel like ender's syn vote felt kinda bus shaped, though idk why he would bus like that, but i guess it's possible he just stayed on after it looked like syn was gonna die, cuz i feel like him leaving his last vote as that doesn't make a ton of sense given it was just a "see what happens" vote iirc? need to check exactly how that went down but if there's a busser i think it's most likely him or GH

also i need to read syn posts - i see hally quoting syn reminds me that ender was syn's main push which level 0 would make ender town but i'm gonna check in full

i'm mainly looking at gh/visor/gemma rn and if i had to dart a level 0 world team it'd probably be this. i don't really think it's logic and i think gh/visor have been acting in a way that seems level 0 unpartnered with him but i dunno if i can really prove this + lolpreflips

btw is there an easier way to iso on this site cuz rn i've just been using the "find latest posts thing" but you have to click on each of post to expand them so it's kinda annoying

[Arctic]

I also don't think "If Logic was town he would have died" is a valid argument.

With 3 minutes left the tally was 4-4.

7 out of 17 players were online.
It was: Ender Ladd GH Murska Arctic Rask and Jan

That includes everyone who voted Syn at that point: Rask Jan Ladd Ender

The remaining three (Arctic GH Murska) are literally the only ones who could have made sure Logic died instead.

GH broke the tie, making it 5-4, then Arctic and Murska joined in.

Well if GH was wolf and Logic was town I'm quite confident he wouldn't put the death warrant on Syn there.

At that point it'd be super weird for one/two wolves of Arctic and Murska to try to save Syn, especially since I'm pretty sure Syn wanted to die anyway.

Lol I just realized that the 7 people who voted Syn also were the only ones online at EoD.

I absolutely think logic can be town and GH can be a wolf

I already said I was prob gonna vote syn and GH was townreading logic? I'm sure he can read the room there as mafia

[nebjiamn]

i'm kinda sponging everyone on the visor wolfreads. the reasons just seem good and i agree visor was lacking impact yesterday. i think him or GH are my preferred votes atm

GH's posting just... seems really safe today? and as i'm catching up he still hasn't said who he thinks is mafia - i think he should have some more kind of.. urgency, or some sense of direction if he's townreading both logic and visor (judging from 832, or he's at least not sure on visor) but idrk what he's doing. he's just kinda angling around both logic and visor but it's not clear who he actually thinks is mafia

ngl the wolfiest thing about logic is that i don't think he had any reaction to zack flipping v when he was pretty tunneled there which. but like. i dunno. reading hally's post it seems the sus on him comes from not playing in a way that they'd expect the perfect villager to, but i just remember logic being generally weird and hitting a lot of level 0 scumtells so i'm not really convinced. the most convincing reason for them to be mafia is how wolves didn't do anything to try and kill him over syn, but in the world he's town it's possible wolves had locked themselves into townreading logic - like GH, who i think can probably be mafia

someone pulled up a quote of logic trying to omgus visor in another game so i don't think the lack of trying to engage with the people who sus him is really a wolftell, if anything the wolftell here is how he went less hard on zack in this game but it feels silly to actually call this wolfy

outside of this i still sus gemma and their last wall kinda reminded me that i thought they were wolfy lol. i still don't townread dya but i'm fine laying off there for reasons. i don't really have a read on wisdom but i feel like if she's mafia something would have come up by now. i like her recent thoughts on logic in 878, and even if i dont really understand the perspective slip thing i think the read's existence is villagery. rask was the main pusher of syn iirc so i was probably trolling there, same with ladd

i did feel like ender's syn vote felt kinda bus shaped, though idk why he would bus like that, but i guess it's possible he just stayed on after it looked like syn was gonna die, cuz i feel like him leaving his last vote as that doesn't make a ton of sense given it was just a "see what happens" vote iirc? need to check exactly how that went down but if there's a busser i think it's most likely him or GH

also i need to read syn posts - i see hally quoting syn reminds me that ender was syn's main push which level 0 would make ender town but i'm gonna check in full

i'm mainly looking at gh/visor/gemma rn and if i had to dart a level 0 world team it'd probably be this. i don't really think it's logic and i think gh/visor have been acting in a way that seems level 0 unpartnered with him but i dunno if i can really prove this + lolpreflips

btw is there an easier way to iso on this site cuz rn i've just been using the "find latest posts thing" but you have to click on each of post to expand them so it's kinda annoying

best way to iso is click the 'who's posted' button on the main forum then you can click on the number of posts someone has to see their iso

its not perfect (and maybe not much different from what you're doing now tbh) but its what we got

[Arctic]

performative to-do list

iso all of syn/visor/gh
check ender/syn interactions
...actually check all syn mentions/interactions while i'm at it
be called a good boy

[Wisdom]

I absolutely think logic can be town and GH can be a wolf

I already said I was prob gonna vote syn and GH was townreading logic? I'm sure he can read the room there as mafia

I've had so many people tell me that GH hates bussing and would never bus etc that I just can't see him bus with 3 min to go even if Syn was a doomed slot.

[Wisdom]

performative to-do list

iso all of syn/visor/gh
check ender/syn interactions
...actually check all syn mentions/interactions while i'm at it
be called a good boy

I think you're a good boy tbh!

[Logic]

I'm quite confident that if Logic is town then GH is town as well, absolutely no need to thunderbus at that moment otherwise.

This is not an accurate dichotomy.

I'll flip town. I think GH will flip town, but my alignment is not automatically determinate of his.

[Wisdom]

This is not an accurate dichotomy.

I'll flip town. I think GH will flip town, but my alignment is not automatically determinate of his.

I guess my meta data could be flawed!

[Hally]

i skimmed gemma’s iso and i still don’t really have strong thoughts on their posts

their stuff mostly just passes through me but

i'll copy ladd but with 99% less effort

v
zack
hally
rask
benneh

light v
ender
jan
ladd?

light w
gh?

benneh maybe too high but their wallpost is tbh probably the villageriest thing in the entire thread

hally because i find myself mindmelding with a lot of their posts, they seem liek they dont give a shit and just push on whatever big villa energy etc

rask kind of occupying the same space just smaller and more unhinged

jan having basically 3 reads this entire game and 2 of them being v charitable v reads is doing ntohing for his wincon if hes a wolf which im fine with for day 1

gh bad tocuh on logic, havnet hugely liked the way hes spent his ofcus so far this game too lazy to elaborate

everyone else nfc

syn had the thing where he basically ignored me when i asked him why he was w reading ender, he did say things later but eh

murska jan w reads them which predisposes me to do the same, they also seem like the kind of player/style id struggle to get a read on, literally zero opinion

vanta maybe their saying they're just going to read ppl based on avatar is actually openwolfing and i shouldnt be giving them a pass idk

so ye none of the lowposter yeets are particularly inpsiring but ig thats par for the course

the bolded lines of this post in particular seem wolfy

the first one is one of ladd’s classic interaction tell iirc. basically that wolves are more likely to tmi a lack of interaction from their bros and say stuff like “X is ignoring me” when it’s prob not something they would notice as town. not sure this is the best example of the tell but

then the second one just seems like a lazy wolf read? they ended up voting murska but i don’t get why based on what they say here

[Logic]

Players I think more people need to weigh in on (as in, I've missed reads people's there, if there are any:):
Jan, Ladd, Vanta, Wisdom, and Rask

I'm going to say I'm lazily calling wisdom and Vanta scum
And I'm vaguely town-reading Jan and Ladd

I can't remember anything Rask has done besides vote me once.

Peeps need to share opinions on these 5.

[nebjiamn]

Players I think more people need to weigh in on (as in, I've missed reads people's there, if there are any:):
Jan, Ladd, Vanta, Wisdom, and Rask

I'm going to say I'm lazily calling wisdom and Vanta scum
And I'm vaguely town-reading Jan and Ladd

I can't remember anything Rask has done besides vote me once.

Peeps need to share opinions on these 5.

3 obvious villagers, a likely villager in wisdom, and someone who will probably never crawl past null in vanta

[nebjiamn]

logic ... have you read eod?

[Logic]

I guess my meta data could be flawed!

Wolfy reply, m'lady

(I spent a long time looking for a "fedora hat-tip" emoji to accompany this as a joke, but coming up empty, I maintain this post is wolfy)

[Logic]

logic ... have you read eod?

No.
From wherever I left the thread before EOD1 to SOD2 I have not read

[Logic]

3 obvious villagers, a likely villager in wisdom, and someone who will probably never crawl past null in vanta

I'm calling this post as more villa leaning because of the desire to interact with my "not talked about enough" list.

[dyachei]

logic, i have not once backed off on you due to anyone's v read of you today. At all. I do not know why you keep repeating that I have

Arctic, voting syn gets you 0 credit. I do not care that you voted syn, you're still agenda'd and your treatment of me could only charitably be called a conf bias but is more likely trying to keep me open as an option for elim. If you're a villager you should probably stop saying that I've done such and such as a wolf because the larger picture should lead you to a different conclusion. if you're a wolf, keep doing what you're doing I guess.

[Arctic]

i skimmed gemma’s iso and i still don’t really have strong thoughts on their posts

their stuff mostly just passes through me but


the bolded lines of this post in particular seem wolfy

the first one is one of ladd’s classic interaction tell iirc. basically that wolves are more likely to tmi a lack of interaction from their bros and say stuff like “X is ignoring me” when it’s prob not something they would notice as town. not sure this is the best example of the tell but

then the second one just seems like a lazy wolf read? they ended up voting murska but i don’t get why based on what they say here

this is a good point
the part about vanta is pretty bad too, seems like a pretty dismissive way of handling someone they're saying is openwolfing and openwolfing in an absurd description to begin with lol

[Arctic]

logic, i have not once backed off on you due to anyone's v read of you today. At all. I do not know why you keep repeating that I have

Arctic, voting syn gets you 0 credit. I do not care that you voted syn, you're still agenda'd and your treatment of me could only charitably be called a conf bias but is more likely trying to keep me open as an option for elim. If you're a villager you should probably stop saying that I've done such and such as a wolf because the larger picture should lead you to a different conclusion. if you're a wolf, keep doing what you're doing I guess.

im not arguing that i should get cred for voting syn just that i shouldn't be getting shit for my eod

[dyachei]

im not arguing that i should get cred for voting syn just that i shouldn't be getting shit for my eod

im not giving you shit for your EOD, Im giving you shit for your whole d1

19/50

[Murska]

I'm not sure how obvious it was to people online at the time of EoD, but I'd been voting Syn earlier, switched to Logic to see if anyone would try to save Syn and was always intending to switch back to Syn before the end. So if wolves read that correctly, they'd have known at the 4-4 situation that it was actually 5-3 in practice and much harder to save Syn.

Wisdom's started d2 well imo, which is good since I didn't have a good read there yesterday.

I'd probably vote Visor at the moment, but we've got a hammer risk today so I'll be a bit cooler with the vote and wait for them to have their say at least.

[Arctic]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

rereading the overnight series of posts now that I'm fully awake proved to be less enlightening than I had hoped for

idk how I feel about Syn, the current wagon du jour, it straight up feels null/too early to me, not sure they've fully gotten into the game yet. Rask seems fine though so I'll probably just sheep him on whatever direction he ends up going in with that/passively let it happen maybe. ladd is less likely than Rask to be town but I think they both independently came to the same read which means that somebody who's actually paying attention and is town genuinely believes Syn to be scum through meta, so sure, lol. we shall see

dya I'm putting off to the side for now, will reeval when they come back in thread and make a few more posts

Arctic... seems ok I guess? I'll be the first to admit that I haven't fully processed their more recent posts but I just think he's town, lol, no real reason for it or anything. I do think part of this is a holdover from his early posting which struck me as a straight up case of TWTBAW but there's been nothing in his more recent stuff that's actively pinged me like a couple of other people have

I guess my main point of contention against Wisdom is the focuses (foci?) of her posts so far, it feels like she's kind of artificially picking and choosing what to discuss rather than naturally talking about whatever comes to mind. This probably isn't the best sequence/explanation but it just doesn't really pass the smell test for me in terms of nittery little stuff like formatting/conversational points and the timeliness thereof, etc

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I know this is like, impossible for Wisdom to argue against/even discuss really so I won't elaborate further, I don't really think I've even done a good job of articulating it myself. It just felt a bit off, idk really.

Ender's kind of in that Arctic zone but has straight up felt more likely to be mafia than Arctic when I read their posts than Arctic does. One of their recent posts feels like the wolfy kind of self-awareness specifically, but it's beyond that, it's a general penumbra really.



bolded redtext by me for emphasis

Vote: Ender

boring vote is boring

wanted to vote Vanta but voting/pushing someone after they specifically requested it is soooo gauche

talked about Wisdom a couple posts up

thought about Jan but I liked his breakdown of Gemma's entry and that got the gears turning somewhat

thought about Gemma too but just decided not to at this time

didn't really think about Syn, feel like that's gonna happen with or without me. don't super care about the wagon right now

any thoughts on Syn besides wagon comp?

ender/blade?

others?

Don't have much longer in the thread (should be around for EOD tomorrow at least) so just some quick hits before I go to sleep:

- won't be surprised if Syn flips as either alignment imo, the meta argument is definitely there but I've also seen/been in a ton of games where somebody just isn't feeling it/able to turn it on and that could be Syn here.

- I have benneh as more likely to be town than ladd, but for a dumb reason (seems like he's not forcing it at all and I don't think he'd necessarily coast this much on D1 as a badguy)

- ladd overall is probably exactly one tier above null for me, maybe a half tier. Haven't gone over his posts in detail but I feel like he's taken a number of easily trackable stances so we should be ok to put the STINK EYE on him in the future if it's needed. Didn't really feel a need to put him in a vice grip today because what town is gonna d1 ladd lol

- Ender I saw your reply about Vanta and am acknowledging it but didn't want to put it in a separate post. Has anybody's take on Vanta twigged you?

- hally seems ok, possibly even T H R E A D S P E W E D atp

- Visor is a person I have not yet talked about itg

Vote: Gemma

again, should be around at EOD to participate in nonsense if needed

agree with dya on Syn (mostly; Syn could be a hit but it's basically a rand chance imo)

agree with Jan on Arctic. not super interested in going there today, and if Arctic's having a hard time with developing his reads as mafia now, my guess is he's going to continue having a hard time doing so in the future so it should be an easy catch

I am ~kinda here for the next 15-20 minutes trying to plow through my morning dailies at work but should be in full gear by the time eod proper rolls around

(#48)

my "resistance" to the Syn wagon is a combination of a) "eh this is rand" and b) me piling on would make it closer to a runaway

another one i cant quote cuz of multiquote limit:

ok yeah there's an obvious difference lol

could definitely be explained by mentality differences going into the game, I know I've had great games as a wolf and crap games as town just because I've been feeling it vs tired/busy/"oh god why did I sign up for this" but yeah, that's a bit hard to ignore

ngl gh mentions of syn seem fine to me, i mean it's not outside the possibility of being w/w but it doesn't seem more likely than rand. he pretty much handled it how i did. but i guess that's only fine if he doesn't have experience with syn which i don't really know about. reading the rest of his iso i still think his d1 is kinda fine i'm more just ocncerned about what he's doing today

is the asking to be peeked by a town invest something GH would say as wolf? smooth if so but it felt kinda genuine to me

unrelatedly but to conserve posts, i read syn's iso and it was kinda useless
along the way i remembered that vanta black existed so that's another person i need to check through

[Raskolnikov]

Id be pretty surprised if visor isnt a wolf

He pretended to care about mine and rask's reads on syn but he never really truly evaluated syn i feel

He asked me and rask to elaborate on why syn was wolfy for us, when we both already explained it in a way that AT LEAST it should have got him interested in checking what was up with syn instead he didnt really care, idk its a bit unfair i guess but id be surprised if as a villager he just writes syn off like that considering he like us played most org games

The murska push was sooo lazy coming from him imo

Idek why he pushed murska, among low posters murska was def 1 of the better ones

Pretty much this Dya. Add to it Murska softed yesterday I didnt find his eod push very villagery heh.

More l8r when I am caught up, but dinner first

[Arctic]

Don't have much longer in the thread (should be around for EOD tomorrow at least) so just some quick hits before I go to sleep:

- won't be surprised if Syn flips as either alignment imo, the meta argument is definitely there but I've also seen/been in a ton of games where somebody just isn't feeling it/able to turn it on and that could be Syn here.

- I have benneh as more likely to be town than ladd, but for a dumb reason (seems like he's not forcing it at all and I don't think he'd necessarily coast this much on D1 as a badguy)

- ladd overall is probably exactly one tier above null for me, maybe a half tier. Haven't gone over his posts in detail but I feel like he's taken a number of easily trackable stances so we should be ok to put the STINK EYE on him in the future if it's needed. Didn't really feel a need to put him in a vice grip today because what town is gonna d1 ladd lol

- Ender I saw your reply about Vanta and am acknowledging it but didn't want to put it in a separate post. Has anybody's take on Vanta twigged you?

- hally seems ok, possibly even T H R E A D S P E W E D atp

- Visor is a person I have not yet talked about itg

Vote: Gemma

again, should be around at EOD to participate in nonsense if needed

ngl the reads on ladd/hally feel pretty wolf shaped imo, things like "what town is gonna d1 ladd" and hally being threadspewed just feel like they are reads made from a wolf perspective rather than a villa trying to solve based on what's actually being posted. and i dunno what to make of the comment about visor

unrelatedly
@GeneralHandkerchief can you summarize your gemma thoughts from yesterday cuz you kinda seemed all over the place with that read - asking why she was town, floating her as a vote option, then deciding you wouldn't vote her today in 501, then voting her anyway - this isn't shade, just trying to see what was going on (ngl i was kinda in a similar boat)

unrelatedly x2 but to save posts
oh actually one thing about syn - i'm not even sure i'd say the push on ender means much for him either cuz they did it right after ladd pointed out they were playing different to their v game so maybe they felt like they were gonna die

[nebjiamn]

Unrelatedly but to save posts saying unrelatedly is funny unrelatedly

[Arctic]

visor's iso is pretty horrendous to the point where idk if i'd actually consider his engagement AI because i know he can do a lot better than this as either alignment
just not really anything beyond surface level thoughts, and idrk why i'm saying this because it's not like visor can't post well as mafia, i just dunno what he's doing regardless of alignment

the actual wolfiest thing imo is the way he voted vanta then took a jab at logic voting vanta with the implication that it was a pretty bad pressure vote when it seemed like that was why he voted them too?

he asked ladd/raskol for thoughts on syn and admittedly between that post and when he came back to the thread neither had posted anything about syn, but when he came back to the thread closer to eod while ladd was there he didn't push the matter any further and last thing they said about syn was this:

syn posts don't do anything for me

i'm not gonna shed a tear if he dies but i don't care about killing him

i'd rather kill murska

i dunno i feel like people are kinda overstating how bad it is even tho it's not great

i'm more interested in why he just decided that murska had to die seemingly out of nowhere

it's hard for me to tell what's AI cuz he doesn't explain a lot and was barely playing and that's why stuff seems surface level wolfy even tho that's not necessarily the explanation

[Vanta Black]

interesting that it ended up being Zack over one of the main Syn pushers like Rask or ladd (or Murska). Medic dodge maybe? Don't think it's actionable now because Zack was obv villager but could be an extra data point to go back to on d4 or something if we're struggling.

(yesyes Zack inb4 "or maybe it's because they wanted to ease the pressure off their howling partner Logic" from DVC)

ender was early on Syn, second overall after Rask's initial push:



could be a preemptive bus that he ended up being caught on, but eehhhhhhhhhhh I'm not really interested in going down that path atp, let's just roll with Ender being fine for now

initial thought was "we probably need to look into dya" because they and I were the two main people who were "pushing back" on the Syn wagon (such as it was anyway, neither of us were exactly singing Syn's praises lol) and I know I'm town, but Syn was probably a dead slot walking for roughly half the day and while a useful role, backup isn't something you exactly go out of your way to save on d1. Maybe after it had already activated, but not on d1. hot take, let's look into dya anyway, it'll help

intellectually it could also be Visor but his reasoning on Syn basically matches my own, so lol



I guess I owe it to Zack to go back over Logic so I'll do that at some point today and see if it holds up

This and some other GH posts are pinging me today. I have been in some games where the wolves just loved coming into the thread and "speculating" about the reasons for the NK.

From my POV Logic was the least likely NK. Or maybe third from last.

[Logic]

logic, i have not once backed off on you due to anyone's v read of you today. At all. I do not know why you keep repeating that I have

Arctic, voting syn gets you 0 credit. I do not care that you voted syn, you're still agenda'd and your treatment of me could only charitably be called a conf bias but is more likely trying to keep me open as an option for elim. If you're a villager you should probably stop saying that I've done such and such as a wolf because the larger picture should lead you to a different conclusion. if you're a wolf, keep doing what you're doing I guess.

It certainly feels like you've been content to, at best, treat me with kid gloves since the GH shield came down.

But I think this back and forth is getting us nowhere. Vote me, but talk to me as if you are wrong.

From this quoted post, it looks like you are suspecting arctic. I can see that. I don't know if I agree yet, but I don't care enough to actually defend him or dogpile either.

How about visor?
I'm giving him a V-read.

GH?
I'm also v-reading.

Gemma?
In last look, I was v-reading and have not bothered to reassess.

Benneh?
I'm v-reading there.

So right now my scumspects are:
You
Vanta (need more data)
Wisdom (low confidence but I'm entertaining this from a couple of posts of hers that I think are misrepresenting things)

People I've seen as in "the consensus scum team"
Ender (not currently seeing it, but I also haven't seen a post of his in a while)
Me (I'm not going to list my own pros and cons)
Visor (I'm still calling him a lazy villager)

I know there's people I've not mentioned in this post, but that's because none of them come to mind at the moment.

[Logic]

This and some other GH posts are pinging me today. I have been in some games where the wolves just loved coming into the thread and "speculating" about the reasons for the NK.

From my POV Logic was the least likely NK. Or maybe third from last.

Who was less likely than me, you reckon?

[Vanta Black]

@Vanta Black
Do you know the book my avatar is based on?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Lies of Locke Lamora

Have heard of it and heard it is really good, have not read it.

[Vanta Black]

Who was less likely than me, you reckon?

To be NKed? Me, Arctic