17er Saints and Martyrs

[EnderWiggin]

Not settling on this yet, but I was comparing Dya's D1/D2 with:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-december-game

Which is their last wolf game I've seen. I feel very much that Dya felt the requirement to actually put some sort of cohesive read set together at times.

Also was much less reticent to just shrug sus me.

Those are kinda weak but they sort of outline my sense of why this Dya feels less like a wolf to me.

(Consider around their Vulgard townread and how they felt the need to explain it a lot in the wolf game. I haven't seen that... compulsion to outline reads.)

[EnderWiggin]

Also in that wolf game you see none of that frustration around #481 where they feel like they're being misrepresented and so instantly attack in response.

They do talk to people about representations they feel aren't accurate but none of it has the "Guess what, I do have a wolfread. It's you!" that they had this game.

[EnderWiggin]

i think it's kind o disingenuous to say soandso won't be d1ed here because it's a strong player list across the board. Arctic has made me actively wolf read him while syn is doing things that syn does as both alignments

Correction, I found a Dya comment on it.

Well now everyone has basically called the Syn wagon "meh". Thanks guys.

[EnderWiggin]

I'm going to use one more post on my defense because I'm feeling aggrieved by this.

Read Syn/Gemma/Visor. Read how each of them refers to each other. Cautious. Small footprint. A little banter but until Visor's EOD2 there was no super strong sus on each other in any capacity. And that comes out of left field like a fastball.

Comparatively, Syn and Gemma have no issue discussing me. They have strongly variable reads with Gemma trying to push a shaky townread and make it sound much stronger than it was. Syn pushing a sus and trying to undermine my read on him.

(As per:

but no really

most of his ISO revolves around waffling on arctic and an unexplained vote on jan as his bookends (with a promise that there's a secret reason), before hard turning into a vote on me and saying he sussed me all along

)

Why am I the randomly chosen person to be awkwardly read by all the wolves when they avoided anything like that on D1 on ANYONE else on the team?

Do you really think they pick ME as the person to go deep by trying to wild-spew me? Visor was the one getting much more townreads at that point than anyone else. If I was to pick a wolf to go deep it would've been him. Not me. Also Visor and I tend to do really good spewing each other in the several wolf games we've had in the past, (I can point to a md game last year, and several MU games back in like 2022/2021, or hell the old 2014 games probably but I don't remember them clearly.)

Anyway. I know this is partially self-meta and I often say it's the easiest thing to do as wolf.

But just... reread how the wolves treated each other. Then how they treated me. There's a clear difference.

Comparatively they don't really have strong interactions with other living players. (Closest is Visor early cringing at Arctic posts, but he does the same to a Gemma post also on D1. It's the light shade I can easily see him doing to another wolf so it's ~whatever)

[EnderWiggin]

popped in to say that ladd isn't clear yet and people should be wary of him

Back to why I townread Dya.

Having them blow up over the GH vs Zack Logic read (btw GH was proven to have the more accurate one this game ) they disappeared. They could've just stayed out. There was no ladd post. But they dropped back in to post this.

This feels like more of what I'd expect from a town coming back to make sure their knowledge of ladd was expressed.

[Arctic]

I'm not interested in defence I'm interested in you wolfcasing dya or you die because it's not me or hally

[Arctic]

I know this sounds like I'm forcing your hand but like.. I am

you can blame me if it's wrong

[EnderWiggin]

I know this sounds like I'm forcing your hand but like.. I am

you can blame me if it's wrong

Nah fuck that.

I'm going to scumread who I want when I finish reading.

I give exactly 0 shits about what you think about that. If you're town then it's your job to find me when I do that. If you're wolf then...

[EnderWiggin]

i dont actually have any intention of voting gh at eod because something something bropass or whatever

i wanted to just sheep visor but i also dont really want to vote vanta idk why

not yoting hally/rask/zack/jan/ender today

dya is happiness kryptonite so not touching that

I'm also getting more and more convinced the last wolf is not Dya.

Which is gonna make me look stupid if they're actually wolf. But I believe this so far.

[EnderWiggin]

i'm kinda sponging everyone on the visor wolfreads. the reasons just seem good and i agree visor was lacking impact yesterday. i think him or GH are my preferred votes atm

GH's posting just... seems really safe today? and as i'm catching up he still hasn't said who he thinks is mafia - i think he should have some more kind of.. urgency, or some sense of direction if he's townreading both logic and visor (judging from 832, or he's at least not sure on visor) but idrk what he's doing. he's just kinda angling around both logic and visor but it's not clear who he actually thinks is mafia

ngl the wolfiest thing about logic is that i don't think he had any reaction to zack flipping v when he was pretty tunneled there which. but like. i dunno. reading hally's post it seems the sus on him comes from not playing in a way that they'd expect the perfect villager to, but i just remember logic being generally weird and hitting a lot of level 0 scumtells so i'm not really convinced. the most convincing reason for them to be mafia is how wolves didn't do anything to try and kill him over syn, but in the world he's town it's possible wolves had locked themselves into townreading logic - like GH, who i think can probably be mafia

someone pulled up a quote of logic trying to omgus visor in another game so i don't think the lack of trying to engage with the people who sus him is really a wolftell, if anything the wolftell here is how he went less hard on zack in this game but it feels silly to actually call this wolfy

outside of this i still sus gemma and their last wall kinda reminded me that i thought they were wolfy lol. i still don't townread dya but i'm fine laying off there for reasons. i don't really have a read on wisdom but i feel like if she's mafia something would have come up by now. i like her recent thoughts on logic in 878, and even if i dont really understand the perspective slip thing i think the read's existence is villagery. rask was the main pusher of syn iirc so i was probably trolling there, same with ladd

i did feel like ender's syn vote felt kinda bus shaped, though idk why he would bus like that, but i guess it's possible he just stayed on after it looked like syn was gonna die, cuz i feel like him leaving his last vote as that doesn't make a ton of sense given it was just a "see what happens" vote iirc? need to check exactly how that went down but if there's a busser i think it's most likely him or GH

also i need to read syn posts - i see hally quoting syn reminds me that ender was syn's main push which level 0 would make ender town but i'm gonna check in full

i'm mainly looking at gh/visor/gemma rn and if i had to dart a level 0 world team it'd probably be this. i don't really think it's logic and i think gh/visor have been acting in a way that seems level 0 unpartnered with him but i dunno if i can really prove this + lolpreflips

btw is there an easier way to iso on this site cuz rn i've just been using the "find latest posts thing" but you have to click on each of post to expand them so it's kinda annoying

I think if I was to say Arctic was wolf this is the post I'd have to work out most.

This was early D2. Syn has been yeeted.

Does wolf!Arctic at this point plot out to interspace bussing his other two partners with other lhf town?

I'm putting this here to think over as I parse the rest of the D2.

[EnderWiggin]

If logic is a wolf there's a high chance gh is too.

And visor might be but I'm not sure there yet. I'd like to hear more about the wolf reads therr

no but I dont really have reasons he's a wolf either. Just that he could be one. Where i have reasons I think logic +/- GH could be wolves

rip bronana

gj on syn gang

immediate thought is at least one of logic/visor is ~always a wolf

why the two of them always?

i mean it’s basically what you said, i don’t think the game makes sense if they’re both villas?

that would mean everyone who thought logic was wolfy yesterday are villagers who were wrong on v!logic and wolves didn’t try to take advantage of it when he was sitting right there as a counterwagon to syn (ig benneh could also be the wolf in this world but i’m sponging zack/ladd that he’s not)

it’s also just PoE though, like who are the wolves if they’re both villagers? it gets pretty wonky i think

and just off posting, i mean logic still just seems like a wolf lol

visor i’m not sure has posted wolfy, it’s more like a negative space thing. imo v!visor is usually more memorable or impactful than he’s been here and he’s missing some of the joie de vivre / leeroy energy he usually has. you don’t think so?


tbh i think it’s somewhat likely they’re w/w because in the quote from the v!logic game zack pulled logic was super strong on visor being someone who should never misread him and told people to nuke visor when he flipped town but this game visor wolf read him and i don’t think logic even acknowledged at all? he was hitting zack with sauce but afair completely ignored visor. and then closer to EoD when it was syn/logic wagons visor started pushing murska instead of just going for logic

Fair thanks for explaining. I was wondering where the connection was.

Visor or logic first

yea i agree

visor is prob the scariest villager i’ve ever wolfed against cuz his wolf reads are so uncannily good and he doesn’t give af about getting caught up in consensus or just killing low posters and stuff so you can’t really predict what he’s gonna do imo

and his murska push is pretty weaksauce by that standard

I think ben's entrance into the game today is really villagery. I was more on the fence about him yesterday. Although I've been a bit frustrated at times this game with Hally (mostly because I think my communication sucks), I think her solving today is mindmeldy to mine. I think the way she's looking at the game makes sense and she's re-evaluating based on flips - even if I sometimes disagree with the outcome. Like I think arctic's vote looks like the rest of his game did - agenda'd

Also noting this as a conversation that's relevant in some ways.

[EnderWiggin]

@Hally

How strongly do you believe in your "Arctic never busses unless it's super necessary"?

I'm not going to defer my read to this but I found your note on it and just want to check your thoughts.

[Hally]

here now

damn she was right

yeah i really regret waffling on clearing wisdom and vanta but i just could never find a reason to be confident in it even though i didn’t really believe in them being wolves

if i could have towncased vanta better and convinced people there i think this game becomes a lot easier but i’m not sure anyone would have believed in it

feel like they were destined to get shrug yeeted at some point unfortunately

[EnderWiggin]

Gemma/ender i also have as not aligned iirc

Wild change of mind time.

We veering at 360 speeds on this road.

Vote: Gemma

So I was rereading D1 to get a feel of Arctic (And hopefully a case) when I started reading Gemma posts and have now decided that her townreading me when I was feeling attacked has meant I've ignored her slot probably more than I should've?

Gemma vote is partially because of these posts. I figured I should probably post these instead of just naked changing votes.

I lied I found another sequence that I think is actually clearing.

Also yes included Ladd's note because all his associative reads have been proven correct this game so far. =P

[EnderWiggin]

here now


yeah i really regret waffling on clearing wisdom and vanta but i just could never find a reason to be confident in it even though i didn’t really believe in them being wolves

if i could have towncased vanta better and convinced people there i think this game becomes a lot easier but i’m not sure anyone would have believed in it

feel like they were destined to get shrug yeeted at some point unfortunately

Honestly I'm super frustrated I backed down on my Wisdom read. I had it super strong D2/D3 and the fact that I didn't fight it hard is just nyeh.

[EnderWiggin]

Also I think I'm actually moving Hally to the "Definitely not the wolf pile." Even reading D2 trying to take the assumption that she's wolf feels so flimsy.

If you're wolf then you've won, good work.

[EnderWiggin]

i had a dream that we chain killed gh and visor and they both flipped wolf but we couldn't find the last wolf for shit and the game went to f3 where i got misyeeted (i dont remember who was in f3 or who the wolf was, probably dya)

This post is also very hilarious rn

[Hally]

If you clear me you'll be one closer to not being wrong?

But I'll remind you that Visor also said "Fuck the claim kill Gemma".

I don't think ignoring the claim means anything.

not sure why you’re conflating my treatment of gemma and visor’s? the context and manner in which we pushed them are completely different

visor pushed them after they softed and he was obv dying because he just wanted to eek out some equity and see if he could spew them before he died

i wolf read gemma and called them out as seeming w/w with syn before they softed anything and before most people were on the gemma wolf train then D4 after their soft had two nights to self resolve and they were still doing nothing while avoiding hard claiming i started to think they were a wolf again because i felt like worlds didn’t really make sense otherwise, and i feel like you can clearly see me grow more wary of letting them skate by as i realized that to the point where i even kinda wanted them dead EoD4

[Arctic]

uhm im pretty sure ender has postcapped

lol?

[EnderWiggin]

uhm im pretty sure ender has postcapped

lol?

This is my 26th. I'm finishing my read and waiting for Hally's response to my question atm.

[Arctic]

ah okay nvm, i think taffy's image of postcounts from yesterday was outdated

i do think i only have like 10 posts left so i'm gonna have to be be careful

ender, why is it that you care about some vague weaksauce meta from 1 dya wolfgame but you're quite happy to dismiss my rock solid no bussing meta that's existed for like 4 years?

[Hally]

not sure why you’re conflating my treatment of gemma and visor’s? the context and manner in which we pushed them are completely different

visor pushed them after they softed and he was obv dying because he just wanted to eek out some equity and see if he could spew them before he died

i wolf read gemma and called them out as seeming w/w with syn before they softed anything and before most people were on the gemma wolf train then D4 after their soft had two nights to self resolve and they were still doing nothing while avoiding hard claiming i started to think they were a wolf again because i felt like worlds didn’t really make sense otherwise, and i feel like you can clearly see me grow more wary of letting them skate by as i realized that to the point where i even kinda wanted them dead EoD4

also not that it matters but the single most clearing thing i’ve done this game is probably my EoD4 because when i post capped D4 i said i wasn’t going to be on for EoD (which i did think was true at the time) but then logic posted the self vote and stuff that really gave me cold feet about killing him but i was capped so i couldn’t say it so i literally woke up earlier than usual so i could make sure that i could post at EoD and tell people i wasn’t sure we should kill logic anymore but i also didn’t want to kill wisdom and floated a gemma cfd

and if im a wolf i just never make the effort to post at EoD there after saying i wouldn’t be on when the wagons are v/v and then suggest killing my teammate on top of that

[Arctic]

ah okay nvm, i think taffy's image of postcounts from yesterday was outdated

i do think i only have like 10 posts left so i'm gonna have to be be careful

ender, why is it that you care about some vague weaksauce meta from 1 dya wolfgame but you're quite happy to dismiss my rock solid no bussing meta that's existed for like 4 years?

nvm i have way more i just realized i was using the wrong image lol

[EnderWiggin]

ah okay nvm, i think taffy's image of postcounts from yesterday was outdated

i do think i only have like 10 posts left so i'm gonna have to be be careful

ender, why is it that you care about some vague weaksauce meta from 1 dya wolfgame but you're quite happy to dismiss my rock solid no bussing meta that's existed for like 4 years?

Experience. *Shrug*

I don't know your anti-bussing meta. I'm being told about it.

I however have experienced Dya interactions.

[EnderWiggin]

also not that it matters but the single most clearing thing i’ve done this game is probably my EoD4 because when i post capped D4 i said i wasn’t going to be on for EoD (which i did think was true at the time) but then logic posted the self vote and stuff that really gave me cold feet about killing him but i was capped so i couldn’t say it so i literally woke up earlier than usual so i could make sure that i could post at EoD and tell people i wasn’t sure we should kill logic anymore but i also didn’t want to kill wisdom and floated a gemma cfd

and if im a wolf i just never make the effort to post at EoD there after saying i wouldn’t be on when the wagons are v/v and then suggest killing my teammate on top of that

Dw I've caught up to reading you town again.

I had to give it a fair shake tbh. If you were wolf and I just held my townread on you I'd feel shit. This way at least I feel like I've shaken that tree and felt good out of it.

(28 )

[Hally]

Do you really think they pick ME as the person to go deep by trying to wild-spew me?

i mean tbh when you put it like this i can see it because based on the wolf roles that flipped so far vs. the roles town has, the last wolf is definitely the strongest wolf role and probably quite good so if the team was going to try to spew any of them and send them deep it would be whatever that role is

i wouldn’t expect it of most wolves but i think visor specifically is the kind of wolf to set that kind of thing up, he’s an amazing strategist

[Hally]

ender can you just tell us who you think the wolf is and why

i feel like you’re talking about everything except that

[EnderWiggin]

i mean tbh when you put it like this i can see it because based on the wolf roles that flipped so far vs. the roles town has, the last wolf is definitely the strongest wolf role and probably quite good so if the team was going to try to spew any of them and send them deep it would be whatever that role is

i wouldn’t expect it of most wolves but i think visor specifically is the kind of wolf to set that kind of thing up, he’s an amazing strategist

I'm a wolf who often sacrifices powerful roles for cred. "Protecting the powerful role" is too predictable.

But yes self-meta you can ignore this post. I acknowledge Visor is a good rebuff of that point *shrug*

(29)

[Totally not Taffy]

It does seem that I've posted the wrong picture somewhere which means the correct one might not exist. A quick manual count gives the following:

Ender 29
Arctic 18
Hally 9
Dyachei 5

[EnderWiggin]

ender can you just tell us who you think the wolf is and why

i feel like you’re talking about everything except that

I have blatantly said that my main sus is Arctic.

Kindly request you actually read my posts before you poke that shit at me.

(Even when I'm not saying it I have called you town and have quoted a bunch of things that I think clear Dya. That should indicate it anyway.)