13 year old Girl raped and than stoned for "adultary"

[Koga No Goshi]

And yet here we are having honor killings in western society's, makes you wonder, what drives them.

Very poor, uneducated cultures where people have very little in terms of material goods or opportunity in life, so instead, things like family honor and social respect become highly valued.

When Europe looked like the Middle East (in terms of widespread poverty and backwards political leadership), it was pouring molten metal into people's bodily cavities to drive the devil out.

You could say that religion is tied into these nasty things, but frequently religion also plays a hefty overtone role of reforming societies when they rise up and shake off these kinds of backwards practices.

[Fragony]

Very poor, uneducated cultures where people have very little in terms of material goods or opportunity in life, so instead, things like family honor and social respect become highly valued.

People who were born and raised here. Tribes handed you a much better argument, reduces it all to a flashmob if you chose to consider it to be an incident. I don't think it's an incident.

[Koga No Goshi]

Your mind is pretty predecided on this one Fragony, it comes up very frequently. If you feel the problem is Islam itself, go out and try to get rid of it. I wish you luck. I will be back here in the practical world.

[Fragony]

Those living in the practical world understand that there are differences between cultures, there must be two reality's, one where a 13 year old girl is stoned to death, and disneyland. You have a great time trying to find excuses for it, horrible way to die by the way.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Disgusting savages.

CR

[caravel]

The al-Shabab Militia is a hardline extremist group ("Jihadists"). They are regarded as a terrorist organistion by the US. They're not really very good examples of Muslims, but very good examples of war criminals.

[JR-]

A shame.

Law of the land I guess.

is it the accepted law of the land, as in accepted by the majority of its people?

if so, that would spark an interesting discussion in itself into whether nations (including their dominant cultures) can be branded as backward and non-civilised...............

[HoreTore]

Corrupt and ridiculous system of law in a rebelling country?

Who would've thought?

This is barbaric, but unfortunately, it's to be expected in countries with a 10-year long war...

[Sarmatian]

When was the last stoning in Italy?

When was the last stoning in Turkey? It's a very large and very populous muslim country, so there must have been thousands and thousands in the 20th century...

[Tribesman]

And yet here we are having honor killings in western society's, makes you wonder, what drives them.

Yeah we have them over here , but I don't think the knacks have converted to Islam its just a tribal/clan thing

[Fragony]

Yeah we have them over here , but I don't think the knacks have converted to Islam its just a tribal/clan thing

That is true, so is genital mutilation, both manifestations of the sexual inequality and suspicion towards women in these society's. Nothing to do with the islam, well that's true. Nothing to do with islamic culture, that's a rather tough position to take.

[Andres]

A very sad story. I'm speechless

[Tribesman]

Nothing to do with the islam, well that's true. Nothing to do with islamic culture, that's a rather tough position to take.

Actually it is you who has a very tough position to make , if something is nothing to do with Islam then it has nothing to do with Islamic culture .

[Fragony]

Actually it is you who has a very tough position to make , if something is nothing to do with Islam then it has nothing to do with Islamic culture .

Goodbye tough, enter impossible

[LittleGrizzly]

OH MY GOD!!!!

The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!

Frag and PJ i mentioned this several times in the germany topic we had but i was suspiciously ignored!!!

The basic point goes like this...

Germany was an advanced country and the country elected hitler and carried out some of the most hateful racist policys the world has ever seen.....

so you would think frag or pj would be of the view that, theres something about being german or christian that made them so evil, like islam makes muslims evil...

But no!! muslims are evil because of islam but the german people were put in a bad place by other people (treaty of versailles ect.) didn't really now what was going on, weren't that much worse than the allies....

How can you be so obviously hypocritical!!!

1) Either muslims are evil because of islam and germans are evil because they're german or christian...

OR

2) Both are victims of extreme times, bad circumstances and wrongs done on them by others

personally i believe the 2nd statement is true of both, but you two seem to pick and choose between the options depending whether you are talking about muslims or not, can you point out how this isn't sheer bloody hypocriscy ?

I would point out as well that the german state was an advanced rich state (which picks apart your we have bad western muslims point)

Muslims are no better or worse than christians, in extreme times and circumstances both can do great evil, so christianity and muslims are the religion of violence...

and then carrying that statement on people from almost every religion and walk of life have done great evil when in bad circumstances.... so we are all inherently evil! no more or less evil than each other

But if you do want to make generalisations based off a minority, i would say that dutch is a nationality of evil which turns people into raving anti muslims..

[Fragony]

The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!

Frag and PJ i mentioned this several times in the germany topic we had but i was suspiciously ignored!!!

I am? Just pointing out the sexual inequality in muslim society's, am I making that up and is the situation of women comparable to their situation in the Netherlands? I don't think so. Ignoring that because for your worldview you need cultures to be equal, now that is hypocrite imho. I never use words like 'evil' and never said anything even remotily close to 'all', that is putting words in my mouth. There are problems, you can call pointing that out disrespectful but it isn't respect that gave us the renaissance but a lack of respect, respect is the enemy of progres.

Must have missed your point in German thread, didn't ignore it intentionally I'll have a look.

[PBI]

OH MY GOD!!!!

The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!

Frag and PJ i mentioned this several times in the germany topic we had but i was suspiciously ignored!!!

The basic point goes like this...

Germany was an advanced country and the country elected hitler and carried out some of the most hateful racist policys the world has ever seen.....

so you would think frag or pj would be of the view that, theres something about being german or christian that made them so evil, like islam makes muslims evil...

But no!! muslims are evil because of islam but the german people were put in a bad place by other people (treaty of versailles ect.) didn't really now what was going on, weren't that much worse than the allies....

How can you be so obviously hypocritical!!!

1) Either muslims are evil because of islam and germans are evil because they're german or christian...

OR

2) Both are victims of extreme times, bad circumstances and wrongs done on them by others

personally i believe the 2nd statement is true of both, but you two seem to pick and choose between the options depending whether you are talking about muslims or not, can you point out how this isn't sheer bloody hypocriscy ?

I would point out as well that the german state was an advanced rich state (which picks apart your we have bad western muslims point)

Muslims are no better or worse than christians, in extreme times and circumstances both can do great evil, so christianity and muslims are the religion of violence...

and then carrying that statement on people from almost every religion and walk of life have done great evil when in bad circumstances.... so we are all inherently evil! no more or less evil than each other

But if you do want to make generalisations based off a minority, i would say that dutch is a nationality of evil which turns people into raving anti muslims..

Yes, I thought this an interesting double standard too. So everything that happens in history is inevitable and no one could have done anything differently or is really to blame.

Except of course for multiculturalists who alone out of all of humanity ought to know better.

Regarding the story, it is a horrible incident but I'm afraid not a surprising one. Somalia is not a very nice place.

Ought we to take the actions of the LRA in Uganda as representative of all Christianity?

[LeftEyeNine]

Dear PJ, despair is for the stiff-minded. 'Cause when you get to see that your ideas are not matching the truth, you'd just make desperate attempts to bring the tidbits of truth out of it, eventually leading you to errors like the intention to ignore obvious examples or understanding your opposite party of the discussion the way you want.

This issue is a matter of pure evilness, where you use religion as a mass-domination method. Adolf Hitler used nationalism as a means of mass domination. Extremists use religion, there were even more massacres that had been done in the name of communism, USA way of democracy still convinced many that "they were liberating Iraq". The quality or the kind of the cover-up does not matter. There are masses and a certain group of people using different ideologies or dogmas in their advantage towards the control of that mass.

If some certain idology was to be blamed, others would be impossible to be used for mass-domination. Yet even democracy was used as a tool.

Briefly, if your mind is stiff enough, you'll crave to skip this obvious truth in despair.

I, on purpose, had given an example of atheism followed by the Catholic one, just to make sure that you wouldn't take it religiously or think that I'd push Christianism into that ring. Despite my attempt you did. Pointing out another error here, 'cause expecting a step forward seems to be failing.

Yes, Islam has a teaching that puts woman one step behind the man. However I simply dislike the way that this act of extreme vandalism is trying to be equalized with the sexual inequality. This is terror, some violence that does not come out of sexual inequality. The purely evil minds nurtured by a war-worn and extremely unstable environment yield such a disgusting crime. And when you cover it up as "in the name of Allah", everyone joins you, let alone reacting.

They made witch hunts in Europe by Medieval ages, didn't they? Please grab my point; when people have not much hope and wealth to sit, think and act responsibly they can be easily directed the way a "clever" one wants them to. It was not about Christianity, nationalism, communism, democracy or Islam. It's all about a mass control where head figures would like their mass to act like.

I never wish that one day your country gets so worn, torn and destabilized that I'd hear of such extreme actions.

Your society may not be doing it today but if it ever gets as bad as Somalia or any other African country is, you'll have thousands in the streets hunting Muslims. It WILL happen. You're even acting as the masterminds of such actions today.

Welcome to the human nature.

[LittleGrizzly]

I am?

actually quite light on the muslim generalisation's in this topic, but if your claiming you don't generalise muslims ill go back through a few topics (i remember one in the global warming one, and in a variety of other threads, usually nothing to do with islam or muslims) but as for this topic i could only find this gem

No I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith,

Like its quite safe to attribute nazism to christianity or being german ?

or how about equating being dutch with having sex with prostitutes and taking drugs ?

or are generalisations just rubbish in general and thats why we should avoid them

damn americans/christians love shooting up schools
damn irish/christians love blowing things up

Just pointing out the sexual inequality in muslim society's

Thats fine, i agree with you there infact, it is the fact you put this down to being muslim is annoying, almost all undeveloped countrys don't have equal rights for women, the fact that a backwards muslim country doesn't have equal rights is not really all that surprising, infact im sure in many western societys (when they were as backwards as somalia) had many cases where someone in power raped some girl with no power and then punished her when she came forward

is the situation of women comparable to their situation in the Netherlands? I don't think so.

the only mention of netherlands was in reference to the fact that thier all rabidly anti-muslim, because you are, i was making a generalisation which is obviously rubbish to prove my point, and no women are treated very differently in somalia to in netherlands... unsurprisingly...

Ignoring that because for your worldview you need cultures to be equal, now that is hypocrite imho.

I don't ignore any evidence, if asked whether developed christian nations have fairer and more equal laws than backward muslim nations, the answer is obvious

Now if you were to ask me for the reasons for the differences i wouldn't mention muslim or christian...

There are problems,

There are many problems in many muslim countries (and christian ones like uganda) but this is a result of undeveloped countries and ignorant populations, simply being a muslim does not automatically make one a rapist or a stoner of rape victims or a terrorist or anything else, to make your statements actually accurate talk of fundamentalist islam or extremist muslims rather than just use the word muslim....

What if netherlands had the worlds highest population of paedophiles, would you excuse me generalising all dutch people as paedophiles in every topic, or would you explain that its a tiny minority that do this and argue the point with me ?

I never use words like 'evil' and never said anything even remotily close to 'all', that is putting words in my mouth.

I took the evil as implied, and whenever you say muslims are.... you don't need to say all, by not saying some muslims, or not saying extremist muslims, you are infact generalising all muslims

going back to my earlier dutch paedophile example...

1) dutch people are paedophiles
2) some dutch people are paedophiles

you see the huge difference in those sentences ?

but it isn't respect that gave us the renaissance but a lack of respect, respect is the enemy of progres.

Yes but the enlightenment came from within our own culture, if we attack thier culture we are just likely to encourage more feverent support for it...

Must have missed your point in German thread, didn't ignore it intentionally I'll have a look.

ok fair enough...

[BigTex]

There's some stories that come out of somali that make me wish we had invaded and stayed in somalia. Abandoning them after a few deaths seems so trivial, we could have had change there.

[Fragony]

actually quite light on the muslim generalisation's in this topic, but if your claiming you don't generalise muslims ill go back through a few topics (i remember one in the global warming one, and in a variety of other threads, usually nothing to do with islam or muslims) but as for this topic i could only find this gem

Of course I make generalitsations, when you talk about a culture it's impossible not to make them.

Like its quite safe to attribute nazism to christianity or being german ?

Christianity possibly, saviours and all that.

the only mention of netherlands was in reference to the fact that thier all rabidly anti-muslim, because you are, i was making a generalisation which is obviously rubbish to prove my point, and no women are treated very differently in somalia to in netherlands... unsurprisingly...

Of course I could point out that, ah scratch that never worked never will.

Now if you were to ask me for the reasons for the differences i wouldn't mention muslim or christian...

Then you would be looking away from how our cultures developed.

There are problems,

simply being a muslim does not automatically make one a rapist or a stoner of rape victims or a terrorist or anything else

Never said it did, you said I said it, which I didn't.

I took the evil as implied, and whenever you say muslims are.... you don't need to say all, by not saying some muslims, or not saying extremist muslims, you are infact generalising all muslims

That's what you make of it, something with eye and beholder.

going back to my earlier dutch paedophile example...

1) dutch people are paedophiles
2) some dutch people are paedophiles

you see the huge difference in those sentences ?

A massive difference, good think I never use the word 'all', saves confusion.


You are discussing with the perception you have of me, not with my arguments, you insist on proving that I am a muslim hating neo-nanny. Remove the 'all' and there is nothing left. Why so defensive?

[Strike For The South]

People who were born and raised here. Tribes handed you a much better argument, reduces it all to a flashmob if you chose to consider it to be an incident. I don't think it's an incident.

Maybe you should've done a better job of a assimilating them. This all comes down to power not religion. The power players in these countries or groups use islam as a vechile to keep the population scared wether it be in Holland or Somalia. The Koran is no more dangers than the bible.

[Fragony]

Maybe you should've done a better job of a assimilating them. This all comes down to power not religion. The power players in these countries or groups use islam as a vechile to keep the population scared wether it be in Holland or Somalia. The Koran is no more dangers than the bible.

Can't argue with that.

[Strike For The South]

Can't argue with that.

So why must all muslims be painted with the same brush?

[Fragony]

So why must all muslims be painted with the same brush?

Well I don't. Imho you absolutily nailed it right here; This all comes down to power not religion. Why let religion get into the way of a perfect description of reality such as that? Out of respect?

[Strike For The South]

Well I don't. Imho you absolutily nailed it right here; This all comes down to power not religion. Why let religion get into the way of a perfect description of reality such as that? Out of respect?

I dont.

[Koga No Goshi]

Those living in the practical world understand that there are differences between cultures, there must be two reality's, one where a 13 year old girl is stoned to death, and disneyland. You have a great time trying to find excuses for it, horrible way to die by the way.

I'm not trying to "find excuses" for anything. You're the one constantly on this soapbox about multiculturalism and Muslim faith, usually blaming the wrong things and condemning things no one has the power to go out and change, so what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Go tell some extremists that their faith is what's wrong with them-- see how far that gets you. Then go and tell the moderates and normal majority who don't go around stoning people or cutting off heads the same thing -- and see how far it gets you.

Talking about women's rights, social justice, social progress, civil rights, these things are all much more on the right track, which we can work on with other countries, and none of them "require" forcing millions upon millions of people to somehow voluntarily give up the Muslim faith, which is never going to happen anyway. So when you get up and do that it either sounds like idle complaining or else finding a justification for what would otherwise be called racist stereotyping. It actually strikes me as a bit of both.

OH MY GOD!!!!

The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!

Very true and not a shock. At all. The same people who bent over backwards to separate out Germans in general from the Holocaust or Nazi ideology paint Muslims with a completely uniform brush.

[Papewaio]

When was the last stoning in Italy?

"Honor killings are also part of Italy's own history, where the idea of "honor" was an admitted legal defense until 1981. Prior to its reversal, an article existed in the Italian Criminal Code that provided a reduced penalty of imprisonment of only three to seven years for a man who killed his wife, sister or daughter to vindicate his or his family's honor."

So about 27 years ago...

It would seem that wealth, education and technology are far more sure forms of defending women's rights then ancient texts... atheistic technology and consumerist avarice for teh win

[LittleGrizzly]

Remove the 'all' and there is nothing left. Why so defensive?

Look basically if i say, americans are idiots, its insulting to americans, you have to specifically imply when mentioning a group that you don't mean all the members of that group...

White people are racist isn't a true statement because some white people are racist

and to be honest all your statements taking one at a time don't look so anti muslim but when you seem to bring it up in every topic it does just make you look anti muslim... i can't be bothered with the rest...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with most Muslims - but there is something wrong with the honour killings, with Islamism, the stonings. The treatment of women, the human rights violations, the treatment of rape victims. These are problems, whoever you choose to attribute them to.