Great Britain is not an Island

[Papewaio]

Britain geographically is an island.
Britain financially is a hub.
Britain linguistically is an import-exporter.
Britain culturally is by dint of its linguistic sponge like nature also an import-exporter.

Is Britain culturally more US related or EU related? Or is it like Hong Kong a gateway for the West to China? IMDHO Britain is a partner with the US as they have a lot of shared values, likewise Britain is a partner with the EU for similar reasons.

In the end of the day we are debating this around the world. So really what do borders count for?

=][=

Ausrailia may try to become part of Asia but it never will be seen as that by the other members of that region.
Economically it will trade with Asia but culturally it will never be Asian and when one is trying to carve a place in an pan Asian community that element of non aisianess will be an problem.

In effect the other asian countries will see oz as western they will feel ok trading with oz but not much more than that.

25% of Australians are born overseas. A lot of these are British and a lot are Mediterranean. Plenty of Europeans of all forms. We also have a large Indian, Asian, African and American (Brazilian seem to dominate). End of the day it is a multi-culture. Probably very much like Britain.

We do more then trade with asian countries...and they do more then trade with us. I would say we are a western country on the Pacific Rim. I think it is language not genetics that is our biggest trade and cultural barrier. Its pretty easy to go around Sydney and see plenty of couples who are definitely not ethnically related, to see that there isn't that big a barrier for the exchange of ideas at a national level if all the people are choosing partners based on common values and ideas yet coming up with a plethora of combinations.

[JR-]

Britain geographically is an island.
Britain financially is a hub.
Britain linguistically is an import-exporter.
Britain culturally is by dint of its linguistic sponge like nature also an import-exporter.

Is Britain culturally more US related or EU related? Or is it like Hong Kong a gateway for the West to China? IMDHO Britain is a partner with the US as they have a lot of shared values, likewise Britain is a partner with the EU for similar reasons.

a gateway is a very good description, rather than being either/or.

[Ignoramus]

How many western European countries can claim to having changed from direct rule by a monarch to rule by a democratic parliament without blood being shed?

As others have mentioned, it was Britain which led the fight against the slave trade, banning it before any of the other major powers. A rather courageous step and one to be proud of.

Britain has so much to be proud of and yet she's chucking it away.

Britain is English, Scottish, Welsh, and British, and that's heads above being European.

[JR-]

Britain has so much to be proud of and yet she's chucking it away.

Britain is English, Scottish, Welsh, and British, and that's heads above being EUropean.

i have no problem with the fact we are european, so i edited your comment into a statement i can agree with.

[Jolt]

How many western European countries can claim to having changed from direct rule by a monarch to rule by a democratic parliament without blood being shed?

...The United Provinces? England had a Civil War concerning that.

As others have mentioned, it was Britain which led the fight against the slave trade, banning it before any of the other major powers. A rather courageous step and one to be proud of.

Britain has so much to be proud of and yet she's chucking it away.

Britain is English, Scottish, Welsh, and British, and that's heads above being European.

Portugal was the first major colonial empire that banned Slave Trade, thus before England.

I think Britain is European by the simple fact that it has always been inside the European Politics.
All it's wars were influenced by European Politics, and it's fate has always been closely tied with the whole of Europe.

[Ronin]

How many western European countries can claim to having changed from direct rule by a monarch to rule by a democratic parliament without blood being shed?

As others have mentioned, it was Britain which led the fight against the slave trade, banning it before any of the other major powers. A rather courageous step and one to be proud of.

Like it has already been stated Portugal banned the slave trade before England.

Also...Portugal went from a Fascist dictatorship government to a democracy through a bloodless revolution...not the same thing you were asking but close...

I must admit we killed our king

also we where one of the first 3 countries in Europe to abolish the death penalty .....ok..now I´m just bragging

[JR-]

Like it has already been stated Portugal banned the slave trade before England.

Also...Portugal went from a Fascist dictatorship government to a democracy through a bloodless revolution...not the same thing you were asking but close...

I must admit we killed our king

also we where one of the first 3 countries in Europe to abolish the death penalty .....ok..now I´m just bragging

debatable whether that is necessarily a good thing, many nations think otherwise........

[Ronin]

I live here and I say that for me it is a very good thing indeed.

people that live elsewhere can do as they please...it´s not my concern.....they are wrong of course.. but it´s not my concern.

[Louis VI the Fat]

My principle point is that Britian is indeed different in part due to our geography

This, as it happens, is my principal point as well. However, to put it bluntly, the whole of British national identity is based on two erroneous beliefs:

1 - Britain is 'different'. That's why: Europe = the Continent + the UK.
2 - This difference is based on Britain's different geography, being an island.


Both are false. Here goes:

1 - The one thing that sets Britain apart from the rest of Europe is Britain's extreme and singularly stubborn nationalism.

All national identities in Europe are based on the formula: 'Europe is divided in two. Us and everybody else.' This IS Europe. Fifty, or maybe five hundred, very different cultures whose one thing in common is that none have much in common with the others. Britain is exactly the same as all the others in this regard. The Scandinavians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Iberians, the Poles, the Russians - all of their national identities share Britain's formula. The Italians speak of a Europe divided in two, Cisalpina and Transalpina, Europe below and beyond the Alps. The Basques think that they are the single odd one out, based on their language and isolated position: Europe = Basque + the others. Etcetera.

Paradoxically, being unique is not unique. Instead, uniqueness is the very norm in Europe.

The three aspects in which Britain does differ from other European (or US) regions in this regard are that in Britain this is taken completely seriously, it goes virtually unoppossed in public debate, and it is often mindlessly repeated even in academic circles.



2 - Because Britain is geographically an island, located where it is, Britain is the last country that can make a serious claim to the formula 'Europe = us + the others'.

2.1 The island of Great Britian is not at all a unique European geographical feature.

Italy is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Italy is an island.
Iberia is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Iberia is an island
Scandinavia is impossible to reach overland. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Sweden and Norway are islands.
The Mediterranean is full of islands. All consider themselves quite different from ‘the continent’.
In the North, Sjaelland (Denmark), Iceland, the Faroer, Ireland are islands as well.
Greece, with all it's peninsula's and islands is sea based. Pretty much a collection of islands and virtual islands.

The point? Half of Europe is an island. Better: Europe IS this peculiar collection of peninsulas, peninsulas of peninsulas, and islands. There is nothing whatsoever special about Britains geographical circumstance. It is, on the contrary, the norm for most of Europe. Again, all these countries think they are the odd one out, that they are the ones who are different from 'the mainland'. But nowhere is this idea taken to such extremities as in Britain.

2.2 Historically, water is not a barrier, but a highway.
Isolated and different are places without access to water, not the other way round. For some inexplicable reason, even serious British historians overlook this mechanism. A mechanism that has been common knownledge since antiquity.
Not until the middle of the 19th century, and for most purposes, until the middle of the 20th century, did this mechanism change. Only trains and cars have made meaningful overland trade and travel possible. Before this very recent development, being an island meant one was anything but insular. As witnessed by Britain's history, which has always been in perfect synchronisation with its neighbours overseas.

2.3 Following on the part above: because of it’s convenient location in the heart of Europe and the easy and uninterrupted flow of communication of persons, goods and ideas to and fro Britain, England and the south of Scotland belong to Europe's core*. Therefore, Britain is part of the definition of Europe, and can logically hence make no claim to being different from Europe. What is part of a definition, can not claim to be outside of it.
*See, for example, Immanuel Wallerstein and Fernand Braudel.

It is because of these three aspects that Great Britain is not an island. Island, in the definition of insular and seprated from a main body. Save for the narrowest geographical sense of the word, Great Britain is not an island.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Like it has already been stated Portugal banned the slave trade before England.

Also...Portugal went from a Fascist dictatorship government to a democracy through a bloodless revolution...not the same thing you were asking but close...

I must admit we killed our king

also we where one of the first 3 countries in Europe to abolish the death penalty .....ok..now I´m just bragging

This is exactly the point.

Portugal is a singular country and a has followed a unique historical path. This is owing to Portugal being geographically seperate from the continent.

Peripheral and sharing a land border with only one other country, Portugal naturally looked to the sea. Portugal has build itself a trading empire in America, Africa, India and a single city in China. Portuguese history is that of seafaring, of a unique political history. It is only half European, and half looking overseas. Because of this unique historical path owing to its unique location, Portugal is very different from mainland Europe.

Sounds familiar?

[JR-]

This, as it happens, is my principal point as well. However, to put it bluntly, the whole of British national identity is based on two erroneous beliefs:

1 - Britain is 'different'. That's why: Europe = the Continent + the UK.
2 - This difference is based on Britain's different geography, being an island.


Both are false. Here goes:

1 - The one thing that sets Britain apart from the rest of Europe is Britain's extreme and singularly stubborn nationalism.

All national identities in Europe are based on the formula: 'Europe is divided in two. Us and everybody else.' This IS Europe. Fifty, or maybe five hundred, very different cultures whose one thing in common is that none have much in common with the others. Britain is exactly the same as all the others in this regard. The Scandinavians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Iberians, the Poles, the Russians - all of their national identities share Britain's formula. The Italians speak of a Europe divided in two, Cisalpina and Transalpina, Europe below and beyond the Alps. The Basques think that they are the single odd one out, based on their language and isolated position: Europe = Basque + the others. Etcetera.

Paradoxically, being unique is not unique. Instead, uniqueness is the very norm in Europe.

The three aspects in which Britain does differ from other European (or US) regions in this regard are that in Britain this is taken completely seriously, it goes virtually unoppossed in public debate, and it is often mindlessly repeated even in academic circles.



2 - Because Britain is geographically an island, located where it is, Britain is the last country that can make a serious claim to the formula 'Europe = us + the others'.

2.1 The island of Great Britian is not at all a unique European geographical feature.

Italy is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Italy is an island.
Iberia is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Iberia is an island
Scandinavia is impossible to reach overland. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Sweden and Norway are islands.
The Mediterranean is full of islands. All consider themselves quite different from ‘the continent’.
In the North, Sjaelland (Denmark), Iceland, the Faroer, Ireland are islands as well.
Greece, with all it's peninsula's and islands is sea based. Pretty much a collection of islands and virtual islands.

The point? Half of Europe is an island. Better: Europe IS this peculiar collection of peninsulas, peninsulas of peninsulas, and islands. There is nothing whatsoever special about Britains geographical circumstance. It is, on the contrary, the norm for most of Europe. Again, all these countries think they are the odd one out, that they are the ones who are different from 'the mainland'. But nowhere is this idea taken to such extremities as in Britain.

2.2 Historically, water is not a barrier, but a highway.
Isolated and different are places without access to water, not the other way round. For some inexplicable reason, even serious British historians overlook this mechanism. A mechanism that has been common knownledge since antiquity.
Not until the middle of the 19th century, and for most purposes, until the middle of the 20th century, did this mechanism change. Only trains and cars have made meaningful overland trade and travel possible. Before this very recent development, being an island meant one was anything but insular. As witnessed by Britain's history, which has always been in perfect synchronisation with its neighbours overseas.

2.3 Following on the part above: because of it’s convenient location in the heart of Europe and the easy and uninterrupted flow of communication of persons, goods and ideas to and fro Britain, England and the south of Scotland belong to Europe's core*. Therefore, Britain is part of the definition of Europe, and can logically hence make no claim to being different from Europe. What is part of a definition, can not claim to be outside of it.
*See, for example, Immanuel Wallerstein and Fernand Braudel.

It is because of these three aspects that Great Britain is not an island. Island, in the definition of insular and seprated from a main body. Save for the narrowest geographical sense of the word, Great Britain is not an island.

wah wah wah.

the two things you keep on repeating:
1. the conflation of europe and the EU.
i have never denied the former, but the latter is nothing but a construct to bridge the differences between some of those european nations.
2. that Britain alone is contrary, yes perhaps we are, why are you unwilling to leave us alone in our contrariness?
i have given you lots of reasons as to why britain remains un-enamoured of the EU project, and yet you persist in characterising it as some psychological deficiency. maybe you should just accept that we are in fact a little different and that difference is primarily expressed by a refusual to conflate europe with the EU.

europe is not the EU.
recognising one does not mean legitimising the other.
Britain does not need the EU the way some continental nations need the EU, have you noticed that we don't care very much about it, or is that just another example of the British pathology?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am not talking about the EU. If there was not an EU at all, I would have made the exact same post above.

I think that a British national identity based on the idea 'singular and unique, owing to being an island' dates from the nineteenth century. Well before any EU.
Splendid Isolation is a political, strategical impulse that lives on in another guise. In the national conciousness as a part of national identity, and simoultanously as an explanation for this identity.


As for the EU, the UK is of course completely free to make up its own mind about whether it either should be in the EU or whether it shouldn't remain apart from the EU.