Great Britain is not an Island

[Furunculus]

couple of points:
1. We accept our europeanness, but that does not mean we wish to be assimilated by the EU 'borg'.

2. We do accept the world, we trade all over it, more as a percentage of the total than any other EU nation i'll wager when considering trade outside the EU bloc.

3. Maybe a freudian slip on your part, but the EU does not equal the world.

[Husar]

couple of points:
1. We accept our europeanness, but that does not mean we wish to be assimilated by the EU 'borg'.

Okay, maybe i got a wrong impression there about your europeanness.

2. We do accept the world, we trade all over it, more as a percentage of the total than any other EU nation i'll wager when considering trade outside the EU bloc.

Yes, that is nice, but trade isn't everything.

3. Maybe a freudian slip on your part, but the EU does not equal the world.

Well, it is the first step in europe towards the world government, you may not believe it but your great grandson will live it.

[Furunculus]

Okay, maybe i got a wrong impression there about your europeanness.

Yes, that is nice, but trade isn't everything.

Well, it is the first step in europe towards the world government, you may not believe it but your great grandson will live it.

very nice of you to admit it.

so as well as trading with the world, and travelling in droves all over it, and acting as a massive hub for education from other parts of the world, we are still lacking a certain something?
perhaps we should have mandatory world empathy sessions set-up in every village across the land to ensure we are suitably 'nice' world citizens.

i certainly hope not!

[Louis VI the Fat]

The topic of this thread is not 'the UK must/musn't be a member of the EU/Euro/European federation'. The topic deals with the step that precedes that. With the myths that surround and cloud the debate about the EU in Britain. The subject is to rubbish several of these national myths about Britain.
These myths play a large part in the British debate about the EU. Which, of course, is why I brought them up. That is only the relevance of this thread and the topic, but not the topic itself.

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A box of crayons.

Each one is different. But, none can claim to be unique in being different, since all of them are different from one another. This is the fallacy.

There is no such thing as 'this set is divided in two: a singular pink crayon and the continent of the other eleven crayons'. Even if indeed the pinky crayon can rightfully claim to be different from all the others.

[Husar]

That's a nice box of crayons.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I made you a drawing with them!

[Justiciar]

You could also say that they're all unique. My brother compulsively assorted his pens and pencils by colour, keeping them seperate so that he wouldn't have to fuddle his way through the chaotic jumble. I believe he still does this.. poor swine.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has meant to say that the mighty crayon of Britain hovers beyond the rest in a hallowed none-European packet of its own; only that its distinct hue means that - as with my brother - it and all other crayons should be kept seperate. This doesn't mean they cease to be crayons and instead become unique utensils, but rather that they aren't kept tightly bound into a single card-and-plastic prison rubbing up against one another and getting chalky bits in all the wrong places!

I personally just throw all my pencils in a single draw. If I had any skill, I'd thereby be able to whip them all out at once and finish a work of art in little-to-no time, with minimal fuss. And lets face it.. who has room for a score of bickering pencil cases? Not I. My wardrobe is small, as is Europe.

...

For I am Justiciar, Ruiner of Metaphors!

[CountArach]

I made you a drawing with them!

[Furunculus]

The topic of this thread is not 'the UK must/musn't be a member of the EU/Euro/European federation'. The topic deals with the step that precedes that. With the myths that surround and cloud the debate about the EU in Britain. The subject is to rubbish several of these national myths about Britain.
These myths play a large part in the British debate about the EU. Which, of course, is why I brought them up. That is only the relevance of this thread and the topic, but not the topic itself.

A box of crayons.
Each one is different. But, none can claim to be unique in being different, since all of them are different from one another. This is the fallacy.

We are not interested in ever deeper union. And it certainly is not a price we are willing to pay given that many of the understood benefits of that ever deeper union do not really apply to us.

Here is a national myth for you; we don't get invaded very much. that certainly does influence my thoughts when i think about the EU.
You haven't managed to rubbish much of anything, you haven't managed to demonstrate much of anything, this thread is dead in the water as far as advancing your intention goes, but it has been an excellent thread insomuch as it has allowed me to explain why we don't really give a damn about ever deeper union.

Your crayon analogy doesn't really apply, because there are lots of continental nations that are willing to move with the ever deeper union momemtum, which is there choice, but does remove the defence that they are all unique in this respect.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm sorry, but any statement, for or against, about an ever deeper union neither agrees nor disagrees with what I've argued in this thread. It is neither the point nor my intention of this thread.



After the crayon metaphor, now the Michigan analogy:
Michigan is culturally obviously different from all of the other 49 states. It doesn't get invaded much by the Union. It is culturally much closer to British commonwealth countries like Canada than to Alabama. Split in half by the Great Lakes (well one of them, but I don't remember which one ), it has a unique geography - which is the cause of Michigan's uniqueness.

This all means that we ought to speak of 'Michigan AND the United States'. And all those unique aspects of Michigan must be taken into account when dealing with the Union. In fact, any Michigan politician who doesn't insist upon them when dealing with non-Michiganese is selling out Michigan to the US. Any opinion an American gives about Michigan is suspect and must be met with due hostility in return.

[Furunculus]

Well Louis, you have me at a loss.

This thread sprang directly from the; "is it time for Britain to join the euro" thread, and the entire theme of your arguments have run in the direction of exposing the the ridiculous obstinacy with which the UK acts towards all attempts to become involved in EUrope, resulting from Britains flawed idea that we think we don't have exactly the same problem and share the same goals as the more enlightened countries of the continent.

But if it isn't about that, then you are going to have to tell me exactly what you do wish to discuss.....................

But even if you are trying to engage in some higher level philosophical debate with the argument that the UK is no different, you cannot ignore the primary expression of this pathology which is the fact that:
1) We do hold ourselves apart from EUrofication. (island mentality)
2) The continent on balance does not. (enlightened and glorious EUropean mentality)

So we are both different (in this respect), and an island (as we behave to our neighbours).