Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Hax]

Yes, because Hamas is targeting civilians. Israel is targeting terrorists who hid among civilians.

So, that justifies them killing civilians in the progress?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So, that justifies them killing civilians in the progress?

It gives them a lot more justification than Hamas gets. Makes me wonder why people defend Hamas, but I suppose insanity helps the world go down around.

[rasoforos]

200 dead and 700 wounded for 2 dead people is a bit of an unjust response...

Its also amazing how Israel, with surgical precision strikes manages to kill all overwhelmingly larger ratio of civilians than Hamas with their unguided rockets...

I dont care who is right and who is wrong, they are both wrong if you ask me. But using an f-15 instead of a IED doesn't make you any less of a terrorist.

herr adolf must be laughing his arse off from Hell. A shame for a people who were the victims of a holocaust...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

200 dead and 700 wounded for 2 dead people is a bit of an unjust response...

At least theoretically, Israel targets specific Hamas people and locations in response to random shelling from Hamas. The methods of the former seem clumsy at best, while the latter's is evil from the start.

However, would marching into Gaza and putting a bullet in two random Palestinians be any better of a response? It would certainly be numerically equal.

Seasons greetings.

[Hax]

It gives them a lot more justification than Hamas gets. Makes me wonder why people defend Hamas, but I suppose insanity helps the world go down around.

This is not about of who has the most justification to bomb other people, it's about that they neither have justification. You don't have justification when it comes to killing innocents.

[Jolt]

This is not about of who has the most justification to bomb other people, it's about that they neither have justification. You don't have justification when it comes to killing innocents.

While I have been agreeing with defending the Palestinians all this time, I do believe that there is no political will for the Hamas to cope with the present situation, that Israel will stay in the map. Having said that, Hamas have brought the attack on themselves, I find myself agreeing with this intervention. If I was in Livni's office, I'd order the strike as well. I think it's about time Hamas takes the peaceful route, and it isn't with rockets firing off and no retaliation that we're going to get anywhere. I think Israel needs to make clear to Hamas that peace, flawed as it may be, is preferable to war. And I do support the Palestinian people. Fatah is doing what's right, I think. Trying to sort out this mess and create a unified, independent, sovereign state.

[rasoforos]

At least theoretically, Israel targets specific Hamas people and locations in response to random shelling from Hamas. The methods of the former seem clumsy at best, while the latter's is evil from the start.

However, would marching into Gaza and putting a bullet in two random Palestinians be any better of a response? It would certainly be numerically equal.

Seasons greetings.

Well it would mean 198 less dead...I like it... Ideally they would target Hamas people of course but I m asking too much now...

I dont think that logic has any place in the Israel-Arab conflict. Slaughtering hundreds of innocents as retaliation is a no-no in my book though. I condemn it as much as I will condemn the resulting suicide attack that will kill 20-30 Israelis as retaliation.

[Ronin]

can´t we just blow both sides up and call it a day?

this is getting fastidious and I really don´t care anymore to be honest....there are no "good guys" on either side of that conflict...and I have been there personally.

[Samurai Waki]

why don't we just force everyone out of Israel, and set up a giant theme park?

[Quietus]

I read about the supposed-to-be minimal incursion days ago, thinking 'yeah, minimal, like 10-20 dead'.

[Crazed Rabbit]

200 dead and 700 wounded for 2 dead people is a bit of an unjust response...

Yes, not exactly proportionate, which makes you wonder, why does Hamas launch rocket salvos in the first place? I think that's an important question every pro-intifada person needs to ask themselves.

Its also amazing how Israel, with surgical precision strikes manages to kill all overwhelmingly larger ratio of civilians than Hamas with their unguided rockets...

Larger ratio? I think not. Larger amount? It would seem so.

I dont care who is right and who is wrong, they are both wrong if you ask me. But using an f-15 instead of a IED doesn't make you any less of a terrorist.

Indeed, it is the target and intentions that make the difference.

CR

[Dutch_guy]

Yes, not exactly proportionate, which makes you wonder, why does Hamas launch rocket salvos in the first place? I think that's an important question every pro-intifada person needs to ask themselves.

Yeah. You'd think the thought of a couple of bomb carrying fighter planes would make one think twice, but apparently that's wishful thinking.

why don't we just force everyone out of Israel, and set up a giant theme park?

That might do the trick.

[Hax]

Indeed, it is the target and intentions that make the difference.

The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions.

[Guildenstern]

Most of the dead were Hamas security and police forces, but many were also civilians, including children. Gaza hospitals are overwhelmed with the casualties. The strikes were expected for Sunday, but were done earlier to increase casualties, in what is now clearly the first step to escalation of the conflict. Given how crowded Gaza is, it is effectively a city of one million people, avoiding civilian casualties is practically impossible.

A bombing attack like this can do a fair bit of damage, as it did, but Hamas will now disperse its people and assets, and future bombings will be less effective. The leaders killed will be replaced, and not by moderates. The missile attacks (which are scary but essentially ineffective) will continue. Gazans will hate Israelis even more. To get anything "meaningful" accomplished Israel has to invade on foot because they have to search for the missiles and the missile production centers.

But when they do that, they put themselves at risk because Hamas has destroyed Israeli tanks in the past...

[Hooahguy]

Most of the dead were Hamas security and police forces, but many were also civilians, including children. Gaza hospitals are overwhelmed with the casualties. The strikes were expected for Sunday, but were done earlier to increase casualties, in what is now clearly the first step to escalation of the conflict. Given how crowded Gaza is, it is effectively a city of one million people, avoiding civilian casualties is practically impossible.

A bombing attack like this can do a fair bit of damage, as it did, but Hamas will now disperse its people and assets, and future bombings will be less effective. The leaders killed will be replaced, and not by moderates. The missile attacks (which are scary but essentially ineffective) will continue. Gazans will hate Israelis even more. To get anything "meaningful" accomplished Israel has to invade on foot because they have to search for the missiles and the missile production centers.

But when they do that, they put themselves at risk because Hamas has destroyed Israeli tanks in the past...

true. war has casualties. civilian casualties are horrible to inflict, but sometimes its unavoidable and sometimes even necessary.

to quote from David Kenyon Webster (im paraphrasing here), from the book Parachute Infantry:

"i dont know why you want this war to be over so fast. we need to bring the war to the germans, fight in their streets, bomb their houses and leave dead in the streets. unless we show them how cruel war is, they will always have hate in them, and this will create the next war."

these people want aid, but dont want to stop the tyrants and maniacs who are controlling them. until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

also, AFAIK, israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, or at least not all the time. they are targeting hamas, who hides among civilians. in this case, civilian deaths are unavoidable.
and precision bombing isnt always precise.

[Furunculus]

how many of those 'civilians' job was holding a kalshnikov or making bombs?

[Hooahguy]

herr adolf must be laughing his arse off from Hell. A shame for a people who were the victims of a holocaust...

great. now you are comparing israelis to nazis. i take offense at this.

more to come from me.

[rasoforos]

great. now you are comparing israelis to nazis. i take offense at this.

I m not comparing. I am saying that from a people that survived a holocaust I would expect greater sensitivity about the loss of innocent human life as a punitive measure. I come from a place were Jewish people were practically decimated by Nazis and never recovered (Thessaloniki), their cultural influence is almost lost. I know their loss. I m not saying Israelis act as Nazis but I would expect them to act more humane since they suffered from such courses of action.

I never saw Israel blowing up a whole illegal settlement and there are criminal elements on many of them too.

Hitler was doing the exact same thing you know. Whenever a German patrol was killed by resistance in Greece, the Nazis would go to the nearest village and execute 20 times the people who died. Do you think it helped the Nazis? As will happen with the attack in Gaza, a 1000 angry people who lost friends and relatives will join Hamas....

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Hitler was doing the exact same thing you know. Whenever a German patrol was killed by resistance in Greece, the Nazis would go to the nearest village and execute 20 times the people who died.

Uh, that's little different. Executing twenty times the people who died (or carrying out any kind of reprisals in that nature) is wrong. Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

[Hax]

Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

Yes, it is, especially when there are civilians threatened.

[FactionHeir]

Enemy combatants do not wear uniform according to their fickle definition. Hamas police, security forces and politicians certainly do. And politicians as targets is just about the same as assassination and killing civilians.

[Guildenstern]

Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

There is nothing "surgical" in the Israeli raids of these days. They are the closest thing there is to a full-scale war between Israel and Hamas. This is definitely the harshest Israeli assault on Gaza since the territory was captured during the Six-Day War in 1967.

[seireikhaan]

I believe this sums up my view on this conflict, from both sides.

In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

[Hooahguy]

There is nothing "surgical" in the Israeli raids of these days. They are the closest thing there is to a full-scale war between Israel and Hamas. This is definitely the harshest Israeli assault on Gaza since the territory was captured during the Six-Day War in 1967.

wait. how would you know that they are surgical or not?
and how do you know this is the harshest raid on gaza? have you been a participant in every raid on gaza since the six-day war?

Yeah...as surgical as a 90 year old neighborhood butcher with parkinson's...after a few pints...

and how do you know that israeli raids havent been surgical?

[rasoforos]

Uh, that's little different. Executing twenty times the people who died (or carrying out any kind of reprisals in that nature) is wrong. Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

Yeah...as surgical as a 90 year old neighborhood butcher with parkinson's...after a few pints...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yeah...as surgical as a 90 year old neighborhood butcher with parkinson's...after a few pints...

Well, what can you do when they're hiding behind civilians? Israel did the best it could with what it had.