Some joyous tidings from Israel

**seireikhaan** · 12-31-2008, 17:29

Originally Posted by hooahguy

let hamas give peace a chance first.

That's just being lazy. As Israel holds about 97% of the chips in this, the onus is on them to be the better man and "give peace a chance". If Israel adopted a pacifist, ultra-defensive approach, not launching air strikes, not blockading some one million people into a tiny little patch of utterly undesirable land, and the Palestinians continue their rocket attacks for a prolonged period, THEN you can say that Hamas must give peace a chance.

**rvg** · 12-31-2008, 17:55

Originally Posted by seireikhaan

That's just being lazy. As Israel holds about 97% of the chips in this, the onus is on them to be the better man and "give peace a chance". If Israel adopted a pacifist, ultra-defensive approach, not launching air strikes, not blockading some one million people into a tiny little patch of utterly undesirable land, and the Palestinians continue their rocket attacks for a prolonged period, THEN you can say that Hamas must give peace a chance.

Nah. Israel is not in the business of being "a better man". Israel is in the business of defending its citizens, since unlike Hamas, Israel actually values the lives of its people. If being a "better man" means sitting dily and letting Hamas cause trouble, then screw it. Toothless morality is worthless morality. Let Hamas cry victim and wait out the offensive in bunkers. They can have that moral high ground (if one indeed could call it that), while Israel will be satisfied with having the land and the power. The bottomline is that Hamas does not care about the lives of the people it rules over. To Hamas, the Gazan population is merely expendable cattle that can be sacrificed for perceived political gains. Israel might be the regional boogeyman, but at least it cares about its own people, something that Hamas would be wise to replicate.

**FactionHeir** · 12-31-2008, 18:06

Originally Posted by rvg

Nah. Israel is not in the business of being "a better man". Israel is in the business of defending its citizens, since unlike Hamas, Israel actually values the lives of its people. If being a "better man" means sitting dily and letting Hamas cause trouble, then screw it. Toothless morality is worthless morality. Let Hamas cry victim and wait out the offensive in bunkers. They can have that moral high ground (if one indeed could call it that), while Israel will be satisfied with having the land and the power. The bottomline is that Hamas does not care about the lives of the people it rules over. To Hamas, the Gazan population is merely expendable cattle that can be sacrificed for perceived political gains. Israel might be the regional boogeyman, but at least it cares about its own people, something that Hamas would be wise to replicate.

Actually, as I said previously, the "international" community and Israel boycotted and blockaded Gaza once Hamas won their democratic elections because of their social institutions and because they cared for the people. They didn't even fire a rocket at that time until no aid came in and attacks on them continued.

Besides, they kept the 6 month cease fire fairly well and did what they could to enforce it. Read the wiki article I linked to.

**seireikhaan** · 12-31-2008, 19:23

Originally Posted by rvg

Nah. Israel is not in the business of being "a better man". Israel is in the business of defending its citizens, since unlike Hamas, Israel actually values the lives of its people. If being a "better man" means sitting dily and letting Hamas cause trouble, then screw it. Toothless morality is worthless morality. Let Hamas cry victim and wait out the offensive in bunkers. They can have that moral high ground (if one indeed could call it that), while Israel will be satisfied with having the land and the power. The bottomline is that Hamas does not care about the lives of the people it rules over. To Hamas, the Gazan population is merely expendable cattle that can be sacrificed for perceived political gains. Israel might be the regional boogeyman, but at least it cares about its own people, something that Hamas would be wise to replicate.

Whoever said ANYTHING about morality, about rights, or any of the such? I'm talking about results. Tribes nailed the problem. What about Israel's tactics have successful in dissolving this conflict? NOT A THING. The conflict continues to spiral even further into tit-for-tat life trading despite Israeli air strikes, blockades, and property destruction. As Seamus quite accurately noted, the only alternative to a pacifist resolution to this conflict is all out ethnic cleansing of more than a million people, and maybe far more depending on what the reaction to said efforts is by the Arab/Islamic community. Tell me, which is a more appealing option to you? A few (ten?) thousand dead, or millions?

**rvg** · 12-31-2008, 19:44

Originally Posted by seireikhaan

Whoever said ANYTHING about morality, about rights, or any of the such? I'm talking about results. Tribes nailed the problem. What about Israel's tactics have successful in dissolving this conflict? NOT A THING. The conflict continues to spiral even further into tit-for-tat life trading despite Israeli air strikes, blockades, and property destruction. As Seamus quite accurately noted, the only alternative to a pacifist resolution to this conflict is all out ethnic cleansing of more than a million people, and maybe far more depending on what the reaction to said efforts is by the Arab/Islamic community. Tell me, which is a more appealing option to you? A few (ten?) thousand dead, or millions?

The way I see it, conflict resolution would be nice, but it really is not Israel's primary goal. Survival is Israel's primary goal, and so far they've been surviving just fine. Peace *would* have made things easier, but they can live without it. Also, Palestinians have been split into Hamas and Fatah camps not only ideologically but now also geographically. Now Israel can point at the West Bank and say to the world: "Look, Fatah is staying civil, and we are staying civil in return. Hamas throws a tantrum and we get medieval on their

." If Fatah can be pacified separately, it makes things that much easier and brings peace that much closer. As for which option would *I* prefer? I'd prefer that Brits had never left the area, but that's just me.

**LeftEyeNine** · 12-31-2008, 20:06

Keep on with your "they need rockets" politics and the righteousness of Israel and the very collapse of your so called "civilizations" since 9/11...

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay...3&picID=0&dp=1

...while I get disgusted as hell with your unsurpassed inhumanity.

**Fragony** · 12-31-2008, 20:27

Not my world just living there and the world is a cruel place. Having a really hard time actually caring about even the children which is sick as can be but this is the moral credit crisis for the Palestinians and I don't feel responsible at all, people shouldn't cry after hitting someone, everybody should have seen this comming, if you absolutely insist on a fight you can't win, well that's gene-theory.

edit, ok that is terrible but I mean it's what they always wanted, the pity of the world, but they have gone too far and lost it. I can't sympathise with these people and their sorrow. If you burn your

you have to sit on the blisters, dutch proverb.

**LittleGrizzly** · 12-31-2008, 20:38

I don't see why everyopne gets upset about valid comparisons to concentration camps, though the most hurtful insults are quite often the truest i guess...

Both leaders are muderous thugs and both countrys (whatever you want to call the 2 palestinian area's + israel) are filled with vengeful hateful people, there are plenty on both sides who want peace but unfortunatly extremity seems to win out in both cases, Hamas because they provide social programs for the people with money from backers against israel, so thats going to leave any populace who doesn't have anyone else to look out for them in to the hands of extremists... and don't mention the PLO, israel had years to work with them, but decided not go down thier own route, and look at result, Hamas. Israel for reasons i don't understand has also gone to extremity, though people mention coalitions causing fringe elements to have more power.... both these goverments democratically elected through the will of thier own people...

Well i think screw the free will of both people's. I don't want my goverment working with either butchers, the world in unison should cut both israel and palestine off (i would be happy to send food aid and other basic essentials to any who need it in the countrys) they not only cause huge problems to themselves but they inflict this crap on the rest of us, Iraq... 9/11... and why the middle east is filled with dictators. It isn't solely down to israel and palestine conflict but it shares a large responsibility in each case

The dictators one is arguable but it has certaintly been an obstacle to reform as dictators instead concentrate peoples mind on the enemy

Blame can be shared all round but if were going to talk about the 2 countrys making a peace themselves then thew ball is firmly in israel's court, with the continuation of israeli tactics the palestine population is only going to get more extreme, anyone somehow hoping the palestinians will suddenly accept what has happened and reject violence en masse are waiting for hell to freeze over, as a state israel has the power to stop the violence, palestine in its current state can no way stop the conflict. Hell, i don't now about you but if a foriegn state starting bombing my country because it didn't like our democratically elected leaders it would only sure up thier support, even for myself i would be more inclined to vote for them rather than agreeing with those bombing me who want a different result.

Of course there is 1 other option, mass murder, but unless israel want to be become mass murderers they're going to have to go for peace.... although i guess status qou could be seen as another option....

people shouldn't cry after hitting someone

So you will feel equally unfeeling to israelis crying about thier losses in the latest retaliation ?

As far as im concerned they are both equally undeserving of death, it is why i tend to end up on the palestinian side (even they they are wrong as well) as they have far worse casulties for thier eqaul wrongness...

**Fragony** · 12-31-2008, 21:09

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

So you will feel equally unfeeling to israelis crying about thier losses in the latest retaliation ?

I really don't understand that part of the world it is way beyond of what I am capable of understanding and I like to keep it that way. But, yes, I will be more sympathetic towards them.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 12-31-2008, 18:07

Logistics, not tactics.....Israel is doomed to a slow spiral into dissolution.

1. They are grossly outnumbered and the native resources of the arab states around them are greater than those Israel can bring to bear. This places Israel in a long-term "behind the 8-ball" situation. To date, Israel has maintained an "edge" anyway by leveraging other factors.

2. Part of the edge Israel maintains despite this inequity of native resources is a result of US support. Efforts by various political elements throughout the West and throughout much of the Muslim world to decouple the US and Israel will bear increasing fruit as America's demographics change. Dwindling support will leave Israel on its own and that is a losing game in terms of resources.

3. Another part is the Israeli hyper-patriot doctrine coming out of the kibbutz era. This sense of patriotism and its "us" mentality is being eroded from within. Israel's "force multipliers" vis-a-vis the resource inequity are fading -- without a replacement on the horizon.

4. Palestinian motivation shows little signs of wavering or atenuating itself.

Suggested implications:

A. Removing US resources will result in the destruction of Israel, though not quite so quickly nor cleanly as Rory implies. The Israeli will to win is the component that can counteract this.

B. Israel itself is losing the will to win in the face of the horrific cost of victory -- terrorism is working in that it has shifted the primary focus of warfare onto the civilian populations -- and Israel is held to a different standard of behavior than is its opposition (by the Western media, by common morality).

C. Israel is progressively being placed into a forced choice scenario by its terror-tactic opponents: Lose or butcher everybody in the opposition (and I mean everybody -- a desert called peace).

As I don't believe that Israel is capable of eradicating the Palestinians, I must conclude that Israel will dwindle and, ultimately, dissolve. The Jews will be a minority ruled by arabs and there will be no uniquel Jewish state.

Stray thoughts:

The warlords are winning this one. One more joyous step towards barbarism.

**rvg** · 12-31-2008, 18:46

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

...C. Israel is progressively being placed into a forced choice scenario by its terror-tactic opponents: Lose or butcher everybody in the opposition (and I mean everybody -- a desert called peace)...

So, they'll just butcher everyone. If Israel ever gets backed to the wall, nukes will fly (or drive, or even walk, doesn't matter), and the region will light up like a christmas tree. Jews didn't get their country through timidity, they conquered it and will fight to the last man to protect it. If that means that they'll have to kill millions to ensure their own survival as a state, so be it. Desperate times would call for desperate measures.