Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Watchman]

im assuming they would if hamas would stop launching rockets.

And I'm assuming Hamas would be somewhat less inclined to keep launching their garage-built rockets if Israel wasn't trying to hermetically isolate them.

[Hooahguy]

so you are excusing hamas shooting rockets into civilian areas?

[tibilicus]

so you are excusing hamas shooting rockets into civilian areas?

No, he's saying that hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel would quit isolating them and stop interfering in Gaza's business.

[Hooahguy]

No, he's saying that hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel would quit isolating them and stop interfering in Gaza's business.

you really think that hamas will stop if israel stops?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No, he's saying that hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel would quit isolating them and stop interfering in Gaza's business.

Excuse me, but may I offer an opinion?

Bull

[Furunculus]

Excuse me, but may I offer an opinion?

Bull

agreed, they still have their stated objective to achieve.

[tibilicus]

Excuse me, but may I offer an opinion?

Bull

No you may not offer your opinion as that isn't an opinion, just an uncosnstructive little comment.

Generally opinion is stated in more than one sentence, I might listen to you, and reply to you, if you can do that instead of using foul language.

[tibilicus]

you really think that hamas will stop if israel stops?

Well seeming Israel hasn't even attempted to negotiate with hamas since it came to power it's worth a try. I don't see you or any of the other biased Israeli supporters offering better opinions other than bomb the c**p out of Gaza and perform a complete wipe out what infrastructure that it has left. Israel has performed it's little political stunt, enough people have died, this isn't war, this is a cowards political game.

I'm saying give Gaza the chance to actually work as a functioning part of a Palestinian country. Lift sanctions so it can trade and actually start to take steps towards becoming something that remotely resembles a county, not a hell hole. If Hamas, after giving the chance to build a country and being allowed the resources to do so still continue to attack Israel then I, staunch opposition of any conflict at the best of times wouldn't even have a qualm with Israel defending itself.

Look, you need to understand you have to actually sit down and negotiate with supposed "terrorists" I can tell you after watching 20 years or so of bloody IRA,UDA and other paramilitary attacks in Northern Ireland,watching the bombing of civilians and so on that firing back gets you no where, you can fire back all you want but at the end of the day you can't kill ideology. If talks can some how be established between the two then your half way there.

This is from watching the trouble in northern Ireland and let me tell you, no matter how many IRA members elite SAS hit squads killed the movement itself couldn't be killed. What you don't realise is by attacking Gaza like this you've committed your own bloody Sunday. And believe me that's going to cost you dearly.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No you may not offer your opinion as that isn't an opinion, just an uncosnstructive little comment.

Generally opinion is stated in more than one sentence, I might listen to you, and reply to you, if you can do that instead of using foul language.

I think it's a rather good summary of your opinion, as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.

[Tribesman]

Whats funny about the propsed deal is that Israel needs a new peace treaty with Egypt .
Hilarious isn't it , after all the complaints that Egypt isn't doing enough to secure the border Israel will have to agree to let more Egyptians up to the border .

Well seeming Israel hasn't even attempted to negotiate with hamas since it came to power it's worth a try.

That isn't really true , there have been negotiations through third parties .

actually i really am deaf in my right ear, but w/e.

What has the week end got to do with anything ?
Is that syndrome you have a manifestation of what is known as bokhim ve-yorim ?

[Watchman]

...as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.

The evidence for the Palestinian militants stopping their experiments in applied backyards rocketry in response to having bombs thrown their way has also, AFAIK, been somewhat hard to come by overall.

It occurs to me that giving them an opportunity to actually try to govern Gaza might keep them too preoccupied for a while to cause trouble, though.

[LittleGrizzly]

Its not really Hamas you need to convince, its the paelstinian people, as soon as thier grievances are met thier not going to support terrorists anymore, the terrorists are going to be the more extreme portion of the society so they're going to have extreme rhetoric, but like the IRA rhetoric it will cool down once they are negoiated with

[Fragony]

Its not really Hamas you need to convince, its the paelstinian people,

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

[Incongruous]

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

The only reason Hamas exists is to serve the grievences of the people of Gaza, they have no real political concpt outside of the people of Gaza. Hamas exixts on the idea of resistance, not conquest.

[LittleGrizzly]

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Hamas does not exsist without the mistreatment of the palestinian people, without thier continued mistreatment palestinian people would over time come to accept israel is not the enemy. This does 2 things, 1) stops hamas recruiting new members (i don't think the ira really recruits many terrorists these days) 2) puts public pressure on hamas not to attack, and gives them no excuse to attack.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The only reason Hamas exists is to serve the grievences of the people of Gaza, they have no real political concpt outside of the people of Gaza. Hamas exixts on the idea of resistance, not conquest.

Actually, I think you have touched upon a profound point -- though my reasoning for that assessment may not dovetail with yours.

Hamas is the "ruling" political force in Gaza. They are involved with useful public works and they have -- at least by local standards -- commendably less corruption (a bane, possibly THE bane of goverment) problems.

Nevertheless, they have failed to really change gears from a force of resistance to a governing body...yet it is precisely that transition they must make if they are to -- on the larger level --succeed. They can choose conquest or cooperation, but either way they must rise to the level of true governance if they are to move forward. Without such a shift, failure is inevitable even if they do shatter Israel.


Israel should be condemned for doing the same-old/same-old and expecting a different answer. May play well to the home electorate, but it won't resolve anything.


Proportionality in warfare is, to some extent, a silly idea. A true quid-pro-quo is likely to kill everyone very slowly without achieving any measurable change. I'm not advocating a single bombing generating nuclear immolation of the entire nation supporting/harboring those bombers -- there are some levels of response that truly are counterproductive -- but simple tit-for-tat doesn't make sense either.

[Marshal Murat]

A desert?

Is this serious? I can't tell. I mean, seriously?
I'll admit that Palestine isn't a desert like Saudi Arabia, but we aren't talking about lush fields of wheat either with rolling green hills. Palestine is rocky, hilly, desert in the south, and has a Jordan River Basin that is lush with local water.

Source 1

Arab population also increased at an exceptional rate. According to records, about 18,000 non-Jews entered Palestine between 1930 and 1939 when there were more or less reliable figures. In the same period, about 5,000 non-Jews left. This does not count illegal immigration of course, or immigration prior to 1930. Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries, whereas in Ottoman Turkish times it was lower than in surrounding countries.

Really, prior to Israel, Palestinian history centers on Jerusalem as the site of Muhammad's ascent into heaven. I'm sure the great poets and mathematicians of Islam visited or lived in Palestine, but Palestine wasn't and isn't known as a source of geniuses or philosophers.

Source 2

The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small.

So don't give me crap about not understanding all about Palestine. Clearly we both have areas that need some growth, but seriously, grow up.

But to get back to the original topic.
I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

I would be the first to suggest that Israel allow an open border, somewhere. I don't understand why Egypt is so very anti-Gaza. Explanation please?

[LittleGrizzly]

Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries

And how does that compare to now in 2009, saying the israeli's have improved the palestinians condition is rubbish...

[Fragony]

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Hamas does not exsist without the mistreatment of the palestinian people

Keep dreaming

It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.

[Incongruous]

Is this serious? I can't tell. I mean, seriously?
I'll admit that Palestine isn't a desert like Saudi Arabia, but we aren't talking about lush fields of wheat either with rolling green hills. Palestine is rocky, hilly, desert in the south, and has a Jordan River Basin that is lush with local water.

Source 1


Really, prior to Israel, Palestinian history centers on Jerusalem as the site of Muhammad's ascent into heaven. I'm sure the great poets and mathematicians of Islam visited or lived in Palestine, but Palestine wasn't and isn't known as a source of geniuses or philosophers.

Source 2


So don't give me crap about not understanding all about Palestine. Clearly we both have areas that need some growth, but seriously, grow up.

But to get back to the original topic.
I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

I would be the first to suggest that Israel allow an open border, somewhere. I don't understand why Egypt is so very anti-Gaza. Explanation please?

Again, desert? Must be why the Israelis were so picky about the land they recieved.

Hey look its the middle east, must be all sandy and stuff

So in the 1930's Palestinian growth was good, sounds right, however compared to what they lost a decade later, I am sure they would have given it up for the right to be a nation.
Grizzly summed it up pretty well, what you wrote was bollocks and always will be.

If you question the skill of Palestinain scholarship at the turn of the last century then I would advise you to stope using the internet and read a book.

So, no I won't grow up in a way which would allow me to agree with your utter bollocks.

as to this

I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

That is A grade absurdity right there. I mean, big ups for that.

You have let them, take land which is not theirs, persecute for more than fifty years the native population in the most disgusting of manners, rape pillage you name it they have done it. After all that time, if Israel has not done what it needs to do, then it should be a clear indicator that sooner or later THEY WILL LOSE.

[Tribesman]

Oh well the inevitable has happened , Hezballah has joined the party

[Husar]

It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.

Well, it's obviously the rightist dogma to never try something new and just beat up everybody who disagrees with the rightist dogma until they are all dead/broken or comply with the rightist dogma.
Considering this method has been used throughout most of history and most of history had a lot of wars, violence and oppressed people, I don't really think it is always the best solution but then again why don't we repeat the silly mistakes of our fathers(look, no females)? After all we're really proud of them.

It's funny how Hamas holds the same rightist views thinking that bombing all Israelis to hell is the only solution that will ever work. And if they haven't died yet, they're still bombing the out of eachother...

[Furunculus]

Well seeming Israel hasn't even attempted to negotiate with hamas since it came to power it's worth a try. I don't see you or any of the other biased Israeli supporters offering better opinions other than bomb the c**p out of Gaza and perform a complete wipe out what infrastructure that it has left. Israel has performed it's little political stunt, enough people have died, this isn't war, this is a cowards political game.

I'm saying give Gaza the chance to actually work as a functioning part of a Palestinian country. Lift sanctions so it can trade and actually start to take steps towards becoming something that remotely resembles a county, not a hell hole. If Hamas, after giving the chance to build a country and being allowed the resources to do so still continue to attack Israel then I, staunch opposition of any conflict at the best of times wouldn't even have a qualm with Israel defending itself.

Look, you need to understand you have to actually sit down and negotiate with supposed "terrorists" I can tell you after watching 20 years or so of bloody IRA,UDA and other paramilitary attacks in Northern Ireland,watching the bombing of civilians and so on that firing back gets you no where, you can fire back all you want but at the end of the day you can't kill ideology. If talks can some how be established between the two then your half way there.

This is from watching the trouble in northern Ireland and let me tell you, no matter how many IRA members elite SAS hit squads killed the movement itself couldn't be killed. What you don't realise is by attacking Gaza like this you've committed your own bloody Sunday. And believe me that's going to cost you dearly.

Why should a nation state negotiate with a terrorist group that doesn't recognise its right to exist and whose main aim is to push it into the sea? The IRA wanted the British out of ireland, not an end to the UK itself and the level of threat they represented was minimal compared to that faced by israel.

I'm saying stop the rockets, stop the terrorism and i would give you an opportunity to see if you can govern a polity.

You can discredit an ideology by demonstrating its enduring failure to achieve its ends, at which point you negotiate from a position of strength. I too watched NI, however i have come to a different conclusion to you.

The process is called infiltration and subversion, and yes it does involve more than SAS squads capping terrorists, and it does work.

[Fragony]

Well, it's obviously the rightist dogma to never try something new

What do you mean, Israel has disbanded settlements, the result? Hamas celebrated it as a victory, rockets fly deeper into Israel. Israel keeps itself to the peace-treaty, the result? Well we all know the result. More rockets. Israel is trying something new, what they should have done decades ago.

[Tribesman]

The IRA wanted the British out of ireland, not an end to the UK itself

Actually they did want an end to the UK , the clue being that people who objected to this are called Unionists because they don't want an end to the union that is the UK .
What you meant was they didn't want an end to Great Britain itself , as that is what the SNP want not the IRA .

[Banquo's Ghost]

Oh well the inevitable has happened , Hezballah has joined the party

Not necessarily. Reports are indicating that it is the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, General Command. Apparently he hasn't denied responsibility. (Cries of "Splitter" now compulsory).

[Tribesman]

What do you mean, Israel has disbanded settlements

They took 8000 illegal settlers out of Gaza and moved 12000 illegal settlers into the West bank , it did so beacause despite the illegal settlers holding a quarter of the land in Gaza it just wasn't economicly viable for them down there

Israel keeps itself to the peace-treaty

Don't be silly Frag . Israel has not kept to the peace deal at all .

Israel is trying something new, what they should have done decades ago.

Bloody hell ?????
It is not trying something new , it is trying the same old failed crap that it has tried for decades .

[Tribesman]

Apparently he hasn't denied responsibility.

Sounds like the INLA , "what do you mean he is busy ?"

[Fragony]

Bloody hell ?????
It is not trying something new , it is trying the same old failed crap that it has tried for decades .

Well I am sad to see that Israel is doing the same old failed crap it has tried for decades, some stockholm-syndromed Israeli's apparantly are willing to talk again when they should be going into the motorsuit-business.

[Hooahguy]

Don't be silly Frag . Israel has not kept to the peace deal at all .

and neither has hamas. do you really expect israel to keep their part of the deal if hamas hasnt?