CA I beseech you! (With poll)

[Sir Beane]

Well going off the review, and I only have the one. The guy did manage to keep spain and france from attacking him through bribes and diplomacy, and it sounds like he choose to fight the ottomans.

So sounds like diplomacy at least, makes sense.

I really wish I could read that review . Why couldn't it have been published online? Stupid paper publications asking for money (which I have none of).

I really hope bribery works better in this game, it was horribly broken iin Medieval 2.

[Polemists]

For those of you trying to view the whole thing, or at least more of it. Total War Center forums has about a 100 something post thread going, and they have posted up quite a few quotes.

I don't have the mag, but i'm sure it's a good article. Sadly I don't live in states or the uk :(

[Zenicetus]

You can say it's dull or you can say it's annoying or a fun factor or whatever. The bottom line was everything you want, tacking, wind, etc is in there, just in small dosages. Which people enjoyed more then large doses. (or CA thought they would enjoy more)

No, it's not there in small dosages. Ships under sail in the real world are 100% forbidden to go in certain directions relative to the wind. That restriction completely determines the tactics of initial maneuvering before battle (see: weather gage), first engagement, and close combat. You can't allow "just a little bit" of sailing directly upwind without totally changing all of those tactics, with the results we see in that video clip.

I know this isn't likely to be changed, at this point. The game may still be fun, for all I know. Maybe naval battles will end up being just eye candy I watch a few times, and then auto-calc the naval battles and focus on land battles. However, I do think it's important to understand the real-world basis of what's being modeled here, just like anything else we talk about with the Total War series. There's no point in assuming that we're getting a small taste of the real thing, when it's actually a total distortion for the sake of game play.

[Zenicetus]

Most people aren't holding naval combat to the same standard as land combat because CA have had four games and several expansions to get the land combat feeling right. This is the first time we have seen naval, so many people aren't expecting too much from it.

Well, it's their first shot at this, but also maybe the last, at least for a long time. The "golden age" of sail combat on the high seas didn't last very long. Once steam entered the picture, all the tactics changed. You have to go back to the ancient world to find big, important sea battles, and that was with a different mix of sail and oar power, ramming, very different tactics. I would think that would build the expectations a little higher. We're not going to see an Empire 2 game any time soon.

[Sir Beane]

Well, it's their first shot at this, but also maybe the last, at least for a long time. The "golden age" of sail combat on the high seas didn't last very long. Once steam entered the picture, all the tactics changed. You have to go back to the ancient world to find big, important sea battles, and that was with a different mix of sail and oar power, ramming, very different tactics. I would think that would build the expectations a little higher. We're not going to see an Empire 2 game any time soon.

That's true. I don't expect naval combat to just disappear however. CA have put too much work in it not to use the naval engine for whatever the next game is. They will just have to pick a time period were naval combat was important.

I hope they get naval combat right the first time, but I'm honestly not expecting them to. It's a difficult genre, and for that reason not often covered realistically by games.

[Belgolas]

Look you can have the most realistic game out there and it most likely wont be fun. Yeah try play a FPS when it gets so realistic you can't spawn till the life of you is sucked out. Or how about not spawn at all. Try playing a MMO game when you die thats it. Time for a new account. Yes I prefer realism over arcade but you can go too far. I don't want land or naval battles to take 12 hours. It just isn't fun. And games are all about being fun. Plus you think it is already hard to control 20 units try controling 20 ships when you have to individually tack and change the sales and all that time consuming stuff while still trying to get your timing right to fire at the enemy. It would be extremely difficult if it was 100% realistic. Yeah maybe it is alittle far being able to sale into the wind but lets face it. Do you want to have to spend that extra 10 minutes to jusy chase down that one ship inorder to get on with the game. While you still have a dozen other battles to play that turn. If you want a naval sim then it should be only able to control one ship and be at the eye level of the commander. Some of you probably want the same view as the general view for naval and that would make it far too difficult and would not be varry fun. There is a reason why each ship has their own commander.

[Belgolas]

That's true. I don't expect naval combat to just disappear however. CA have put too much work in it not to use the naval engine for whatever the next game is. They will just have to pick a time period were naval combat was important.

I hope they get naval combat right the first time, but I'm honestly not expecting them to. It's a difficult genre, and for that reason not often covered realistically by games.

I so hope the next total war is set in the roman time period where it is all about ramming and boarding the other ships.

[Barkhorn1x]

A couple of thoughts:

- By now we all should know CA's stance on realism vs. gameplay = gameplay wins. It is pointless to:
a. disagree
b. point out that realism can be fun too

- Naval battles will be more on the fun side, as opposed to super realistic***, because, well, see above.

Finally, internet poll aside, this baby ships on March 3rd/4th and that is the end of the story.

***Can you imagine the howls of complaints if the Battle of Trafalgar were presented accurately. The Franco-Spanish fleet in disarray with sub standard crews and the absence of a strong breeze? It literally took hours to get the Royal Navy fully engaged. Who really wants that?

[Sir Beane]

A couple of thoughts:

- By now we all should know CA's stance on realism vs. gameplay = gameplay wins. It is pointless to:
a. disagree
b. point out that realism can be fun too

- Naval battles will be more on the fun side, as opposed to super realistic***, because, well, see above.

Finally, internet poll aside, this baby ships on March 3rd/4th and that is the end of the story.

***Can you imagine the howls of complaints if the Battle of Trafalgar were presented accurately. The Franco-Spanish fleet in disarray with sub standard crews and the absence of a strong breeze? It literally took hours to get the Royal Navy fully engaged. Who really wants that?

A realistic, hours long battle of Trafalgar is something many fans here would be drooling about.

Most casual gamers however want something relatively easy to pick up, fun, quick (compared to real battles) and they aren't prepared to mess around with things like wind direction. CA can't risk alienating them by making naval combat too complicated, so they really have no choice but to compromise in the way they have.

While ships may be able to sail against the wind, they will be slow and tacking will be faster. That way the purists can tack to their hearts content and the casual gamers don't have to wonder why their ship isn't moving.

Truly realistic naval battles would be days-long affairs, consisting of hours of manouvering and chasing until the two fleets actually met. Imagine fighting a few of those a turn, you'd be auto-resolving in no time.

I expect that a Realism Mod for naval combat will probably have to be made to satisfy those who can't tolerate arcade combat.

[Theodotos I]

I can't believe this is split 50-50. Of course they should take their time. Of course, it's easy for me to say that--I don't plan on buying the game till it hit's Gold Edition, anyway.

[ByzanKing]

I voted for taking more time if they need it. I can wait a couple more months for a more fully completed game. I just don't want to see something as big as the "shield bug" that completely ruined the game for me until the patch to fix it came out. I would rather not buy the game, then shelve it for a couple months until a patch comes out. Just my opinion, to each their own.

[Zenicetus]

Look you can have the most realistic game out there and it most likely wont be fun. Yeah try play a FPS when it gets so realistic you can't spawn till the life of you is sucked out. Or how about not spawn at all. Try playing a MMO game when you die thats it. Time for a new account. Yes I prefer realism over arcade but you can go too far.

I agree that realism can go too far, it's just a question of balance. And also what's interesting. I don't want to see too much detail in games, but I do want the essentials of a combat style, because that's why I play this type of game instead of something else.

When I played my first tank game (I think it was "M1" from Microprose?), I had to learn about what a "hull down" position was, why it was a good idea to fight from just behind the top of a hill. A tank sim that doesn't include a hull-down bonus to defense, wouldn't be a tank sim. It might be fun on an arcade and eye candy level, but something essential and interesting is missing from the game.

I don't want land or naval battles to take 12 hours. It just isn't fun. And games are all about being fun.

For me, games are best when they're both fun and interesting. :) I like the occasional arcade shoot-em-up too when I want to turn my brain off and kill things for a while, but I also like games that engage my brain too. Until now, the Total War series has done that.

I agree that 12 hour battles aren't fun, but that's just a question of good game design. It's possible to design a UI that's easy to use, with some practice, to control a complex situation. Look at how complex a land army battle is in M2TW. Sea battles don't have to be more complicated than that, and they could still have the same balance of realism and fun. CA isn't giving the player community enough credit here, for being able to handle the mechanics of sail combat.

[Sir Beane]

This pole is unbelievably close, I don't think I've ever seen a topic split opinions so neatly. And that sucks for CA, because it means they don't have a majority that they can pander to.

Despite half of the forums wishes however he game will be out on March 3rd, complete with whatever bugs haven't been ironed out.

All we can do is hope CA get rid of most or all of the problems before it ships.

[Haxorsist]

I voted no. I can't wait any longer for this game!

Seems I brought the poll back to 50/50. ^^

[Fookison]

I voted no. I can't wait any longer for this game!

Me Too! Lets just deal with some of the small items through a patch.

[hoom]

What if there is a bug that really makes lots of people pissed off & not want to play until its patched?

Historically the first patch is several months down the line & may not even resolve whatever the issue is.

I'd rather wait the couple of months at first, and start off playing the better game.

[Polemists]

What if there is a bug that really makes lots of people pissed off & not want to play until its patched?

That's why this poll is 50/50, you have to define the bug.

Many people played MTW2 said it was great, fun and were happy without a patch. Others will tell you it was the buggiest most annoying thing around.

Same thing for Empire but if you read this forum people arn't talking about bugs, people are talking about design decisions. Which CA will not change.

No one can mention any bugs, because no one has seen final products.

People are whining cause A. there is no mp map (which there won't be for at least 6 months if you ask modders) and B. because navy game is not more in depth.

Give CA another year, the navy game would not get any deeper, it's a design choice.


I want the game now, fans want the game now, Sega wants the game now. Problem solved

[Barkhorn1x]

I want the game now, fans want the game now, Sega wants the game now. Problem solved

Yep, and again, there is NO DOUBT that this game will be available on schedule.

[USS Providence 1972]

That video clip begins with two square-rigged fleets approaching each other head-on. Think about that for a minute. Where's the wind? If it's abeam (coming from the side) then this might be possible, but then why aren't the sails showing that? Each fleet's sails are showing that they're being blown and filled out from astern, but that can't be possible. Okay, maybe the sails don't show wind direction... I can live with that. But it gets worse...

At the 2:00 mark, a ship is shown being selected and making a fairly quick turn to starboard. It's doing that with every sail reefed (not deployed) except for very small sails at the bow and stern. Why is that ship fighting with its sails furled, when other ships in view are showing full sail? This might be due to damage, if we're coming in at the middle of a battle. That would be fine, but you still can't maneuver a sailing ship like this, when it isn't using sails as the "engine." These aren't rowboats.

At 2:49, that same ship is shown deploying full sails, in less than one second. It shouldn't work like that. It looks like the game is allowing very rapid furling of sails to minimize damage, and then deploying full sail again, all with no real effect on the ship's movement or turning rate.

At 2:56 you can see exactly the kind of circular tail chase, with no regard to wind direction, that I've been worried about. They're driving around like powerboats.

I couldn't watch more than five minutes of it. The battle looked completely haphazard, with ships sailing in any direction, not being forced to maneuver with (or against) the wind. That's the whole point of combat under sail, the reason it's tactically interesting... unless you just want to watch pretty pictures of cannon fire and ships sinking.

I understand what you are saying. The devs responded to the review which complained about naval battles being too complicated by saying they were doing things to make them more fun. I'm not sure whether this video is before or after that change. Perhaps there will be a mod available to make the sailing more realistic?

Either way I'm looking forward to fighting the naval battles and adjusting to whatever realism level there is. It sure beats the RTW way of simming all naval battles.

[Buckwallis]

What's the past tense of beseeched? Besought? I wonder if CA has ever been besought.

No delay...let's have at it already. It can always be patched....

[Crazed Rabbit]

No, it's likely way too late already anyway. It's almost gone on sale - DVDs have been written, boxes made, logistics arranged.

If you had asked half a year ago or more, I'd say - take the time to make it good. Hopefully they've done that, seeing as they have delayed once.

CR

[Polemists]

Yes at this point it's what, 17 days until release 18 if your sleeping as I type this, but still 17 when you wake up

I mean at this point they have orders shipped and items pre ordered, so it would actually cost them more to delay it again then just releasing it.

As others have said, they already took one delay, they know what they are doing. If they said they needed one month, then that's what they needed.

The game looks good and I think it will be fun, no need to push it to june or something ridilucous just to add in random features that were never intended for release anyway.

[ThePianist]

CA should have had people evaluate some of it first. From the author of the post, yes they should take one more month or two months. Fans will always be there (no one is dying anytime soon, especially not the gaming population). I think if CA tries to rush it, it's out of fear that banks will not always be there, and they are correct on that one. Depending on whether the government of the United States admits the wrongdoing of its spies and many other things, I wouldn't be surprised if the future history textbooks mention, among other things, the Greater Depression, in early 21st century.

Anyway, really agree with signature. It would help sell it much more as well, not to mention lengthen its playability with added or improved features by feedback (though Total War games are very replayable by default).

[Polemists]

CA has a variety of reason to release it. The first and foremost is the game is DONE.


Secondly, they do have financial obligations. Sega has cut a company recently, and stated that they are tired of companies making delays and not getting out products. They want effiecent companies are not afraid to cut ones that don't do it and put no ones in there place.

Sega owns CA, so at end of the day it's Sega's call.

Either way the game looks done, but I don't worry about it.

[sparkmaster4513]

*sigh*

I've been watching this thread for some time, and I'm stunned that people would think CA would push back the release date.

Think about it critically. News of a demo first. New screens and vids next. Then a full blown REVIEW. They're building hype. Not just among us, but among the casual gamers that would not go out and preorder the special edition and stay up until 5:00AM playing on release day. This hype is a fickle thing. We saw it with the demo. For about 2 weeks there it was OMG IS IT OUT LIEK I CANT WAIT!1111!!1!!!1elevendyonezorx!1!!1. And now, its kinda "meh, its out when its out".

This hype needs to grow if CA is going to have a successful release. And it will grow with further screens, more reviews, and the Fat Man of hype, the demo. SEGA has been in the gaming industry for two decades. It knows what it is doing.

Furthermore, the review proves that the game is Finished 100%. It might not be perfect, and perhaps CA is even now working on a patch, but it is finished to them. The release is three weeks away, which means that even now masters are being distributed to factories and very soon actual production will commence, if it has not already. After this, every day they would somehow choose to delay the game would cost them lots of money. And in this economy, throwing away money because some small part of the extreme TW community thinks a game needs to be absolutely perfect to launch.

Delaying at this stage would be stupid and wasteful.

[Schiltrom]

They are starting completely new, it's a brand new engine, brand new coding, lots of new.

The moral system is based on that of Rome

[Schiltrom]

A realistic, hours long battle of Trafalgar is something many fans here would be drooling about. .

According to PC Gamer, the game only goes up to 1799.. I won't see my great great great great grandfather have his head blown off. George Duff (admiral of the HMS Mars) actually was my great great great great grandfather.

[ThePianist]

OK, OK, I understand the "delaying the release would cost money" thing. I wasn't pushing for more development time, only if they needed it.