Dressed in black, school, gun, you get it.

[Lord Winter]

the reasons he had seem completely unclear, apparently he played Counterstrike(well, who apart from me doesn't?) but didn't really get into the game too much, he wasn't an introvert, invited people over because his parents had a party cellar etc. his friends cannot explain it, he had finished school, was currently learning a job and was supposed to take over his dad's company later so even i think from what i have read that he doesn't really seem to fit the typical social outcast profile that many other school shooters seem to fit into.
I mean his life sounds even better than mine and I'm lightyears away from killing anybody.

More reasons to expect mental illness instead of some cultural break down.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Weren't the guns legally owned ?

My point being if ownership was illegal and assuming the parent followed the law the gun wouldn't have been there for the kid to grab. From there it depends on whether the kid grabbed the gun because it was easily available or whether the kid decided he wanted a gun and just happened to have easy access...

If it wasn't just convenience and he really had decided he wanted a gun then how easy would that be for this kid, and would he have the guts to try (potentially scary people) though seemingly being suicidal the last question could quite possibly have been a yes.

Would this kid really know how and where to get a gun, personally i really wouldn't have a clue. With guns being completely illegal you could hardly walk down the street asking people, would probably need some shady friends to know where to get guns. I know i could get most of the illegal drugs if i tried, but i have never even heard someone mention they know where to get illegal guns, and i have had some pretty shady acquaintances

My answer is here:

Were firearms laws made insanely restrictive to stop something like this happening again? Yes. Did they actually stop it? No.

The laws are completely pointless, and some politicians want to tighten them again.

[LittleGrizzly]

The laws are completely pointless, and some politicians want to tighten them again.

My questions basically constructed a point, which was if he didn't have the access to guns in his house* he would be less likely to have had a gun. Sure he could have gone in there with something homemade or a sword but it is fairly difficult to be as effective a killer without a gun...

*if the dad was law abiding and firearm law was tightened (as in no guns)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

My questions basically constructed a point, which was if he didn't have the access to guns in his house* he would be less likely to have had a gun. Sure he could have gone in there with something homemade or a sword but it is fairly difficult to be as effective a killer without a gun...

*if the dad was law abiding and firearm law was tightened (as in no guns)

So, we have two solutions. Ban firearms altogether (which may stop the occasional school shooting but will have no effect on crime), or to do what I propose, and not react. The former may win votes, but it is not a sensible solution.

[KukriKhan]

More on the 'Bama shooter. 28, lives with Mom, shoots Mom & dog, then Grandma & Grandpa, Aunt and Uncle, a few other random folks, and drives to his former job for the finale.

No one returned fire, except police. Frankly, that's a little surprising to me, having lived awhile in the area.

Nevertheless, my sincerest condolences to the families, friends and towns affected by both incidents.

[Husar]

So now I'm watching some TV discussion (in german) about it and they mention that he had no friends, quite the opposite of what I read in Stern online earlier.

Just wanted to mention that because if it's true it invalidates parts of my last post.

[Beefy187]

We live in a mad world don't we..

Rest in peace those who are dead.

[Major Robert Dump]

He obviously needed to get laid, which reinforces my theory that sluts make the world go round.

[Fixiwee]

So now I'm watching some TV discussion (in german) about it and they mention that he had no friends, quite the opposite of what I read in Stern online earlier.

Just wanted to mention that because if it's true it invalidates parts of my last post.

I love the fact that the police released a statement that one of the first things they did was to search his pc and they found "KILLERGAMES" (as a german, you might well known the impact of the word Killerspiele).
Looking forward to the debates on KILLERGAMES.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Bah. Guns, videogames. That's not important.

The (school) shooter did not kill kids, he killed girls. He singled them out - this is far more relevant than videogames to understand his motives. I meant it as a serious remark when I said he could've stayed at home to masturbate and get it out of his system. Or get himself a decent haircut at last instead of that World of Warcraft subculture ponytail and nerdy outfit.

Arrogant little boy couldn't stand the discrepancy between his own inflated self-image and the lack of female attention. At last, he got to impose himself on women, to dominate and control them, as he thinks he's entitled to. Too scared to pull one off a bicycle, too incompetent to get one to come over to his house and vandalize her there, his last resort to get women in a subordinate position was to shoot them.
[/amateur psychology]

[Fragony]

I think violent videogames can pull an already unstable person over the edge, but indeed not relevant. He wrote a letter to his parents, apparently the little was being picked on, and just couldn't go on like this. I heard he executed the girls with a neckshot, I cannot imagine how scared they must have been, only have german link and that upsets BG.

[Kagemusha]

My condolences to victims families at both Germany and Alabama and i hope the victims will rest in peace.

It seems that these kind of sick phenomenoms are here to stay. About the killers. I really dont understand these sad people who commit such acts. I hope they would have decency of shooting their selves, before attacking others. I think that if there wouldnt be glorification of this kind of acts among certain groups of people, these things would atleast happen lot more rare. I guess this is the 21st centurys version of 5 minutes of fame, when socially challenged kids go out guns blazing. Sickening.

[Husar]

Heh, the professor in the above video actually brings up an interesting point, there hasn't been such a thing in southern countries. He uses that to link thjis to the general openness of people in southern countries, they are more used and encouraged to show their feelings and not just eat them and store them until it all bursts out.
I think I can agree with that, I've been bullied myself, also thought about doing just that, but I also had a family that supported me, a mom who I knew I could always talk to about anything and I knew it wouldn't really solve anything anyway, apart from that i had no idea where to get a gun from either(no, I don't know any people who sell them illegally....). Well, restrospectively I almost feel like i was overreacting but at the time it really felt like a big deal etc and sadly, that's all that counts, it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks, it only matters what the bullied person thinks and that is that everybody else are just ********** who deserve to die. The solution is not to ban everything or ignore it, but to try to stop people from getting to the point where their subjective opinion is that the whole world hates them anyway and they have nothing to lose.

That may be hard to understand for people who never felt like this but that's exactly the problem, they are often the ones to laugh about the guy on the ground which makes him even more desperate.

That is a general statement, the fact that he only killed girls, well, I am inclined to agree with what Louis said and might add that girls are very capable of mental cruelties, though keep in mind he also killed a male student and some other males apparently, left the driver of the kidnapped car alive etc.
Generally I could see how he just snapped because of something I wouldn't want to make assumptions about at this point and from then his actions were rather surreal and maybe even random, in other words, he went nuts.

If anyone wants this to stop, they have to look at the countries where such things do not happen, europeans are cold blooded bastards, sometimes the prey takes up arms and shoots back...

[Fragony]

I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.

[LittleGrizzly]

So, we have two solutions. Ban firearms altogether (which may stop the occasional school shooting but will have no effect on crime), or to do what I propose, and not react. The former may win votes, but it is not a sensible solution.

It seems sensible to me because (in your words)
which may stop the occasional school shooting

It stop people like me and Husar potentially shooting up a school, i severly doubt i would have even if i had easy access to guns, but in my darkest moments during my teenage school life that easily accessible gun could have been the factor that tipped me over the edge, probably not but there are people who had an even worse school life than me where a gun could have been the decisive factor...

I would have been more likely to just kill myself if it came down to it, but if your going to kill yourself i have always thought you may as well take down the people that put you there*

*that is assuming they deserve it, my boss laying me off through no fault of his own or for my bad work is completely reasonable... someone making my life hell for thier entertainment is not..

[Husar]

Absolutely, the dad is now being investigated because he didn't properly lock his gun away, it was apparently lying around in the bedroom...
Gun ownership is like communism, it only works when everybody is responsible and sticks to the rules anyway and if that were the case the system wouldn't be necessary.

[Fixiwee]

I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.

...and this is how I met Tyler Durden.

[Ronin]

...and this is how I met Tyler Durden.

remember the first rule....

[Husar]

If anyone is still interested, looks like this time the debate about bullying was a bit early, heard some minister on the radio and she said she didn't know where people got that from because for all she knows the guy wasn't being bullied.
Well, maybe he was just nuts, I guess nobody really knows at this point.

[Adrian II]

I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.

All generations were raised by women. Even mythical Hercules who killed, raped or plundered his way across half the ancient world had a loving mom. I fully agree with you that we shouldn't raise boys on so-called feminine values, but the fact that we do so presently provides no explanation for these terrible incidents.

The logic behind them is that the perpetrators do not value their own lives and take their own demise into account when they act, as was already pointed out above. If you don't value your own life, why should you value that of others?

Kids can be very lonely even in affluent, loving families. Most take well to such inner or outer solitude, but some develop violent fantasies or revenge and domination, particularly if these are being fed by adults who make them feel powerless, obsolete or unwanted.

If these fantasies are coupled with sexual lust during puberty, killing becomes, in their fantasies, an act of quasi-sexual fulfillment. Sexual 'slights' such as the ones this young fellow apparently perceived would only reinforce his lust for the act.

I didn't work this out for myself - it is the view of a brilliant Austrian detective and criminal 'profiler' named Thomas Müller, author of Bestie Mensch ('The Human Animal') and Gierige Bestie ('The Avid Animal').

[Fragony]

I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.

[LittleGrizzly]

Im not sure about weapon blows to the head but i for one will certainly encourage my kid to go wild with anger and hurt anyone who try's that kind of crap on him...

[Adrian II]

I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.

I have two kids, I taught them exactly what you said (and what we were told when we were young) and they are turning out wonderful, happy, well-mannered and nobody's fool. But this has nothing to do with the topic. It's a funny thing that almost nobody ever reacts when you refer to a smart, expert profiler's view such as Müllers. It implies that maybe we could do at least something to avoid some, even if not all, of these horrible incidents. How do you vet kids for dangerous violent fantasies? Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one. I know you know and like A Clockwork Orange, Frag, so you should understand the paradox here, which is that anti-violent treatment could actually increase the violence in a kid's life in some way or other.

[Fragony]

Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one.

Maybe violent games are a factor then here. No SM sex for the young. (and before you ask no I am not that violent)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Seems that the majority of Die Welt readers agree with me about expanding gun control not helping the situation at all.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It's a funny thing that almost nobody ever reacts when you refer to a smart, expert profiler's view such as Müllers. It implies that maybe we could do at least something to avoid some, even if not all, of these horrible incidents. How do you vet kids for dangerous violent fantasies? Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one. I know you know and like A Clockwork Orange, Frag, so you should understand the paradox here, which is that anti-violent treatment could actually increase the violence in a kid's life in some way or other.

My own view is that we need to implement military national service across Western countries. This should be focussed on discipline, service and hard physical experience. It would provide a environment for the exercise of violence and the techniques for its control. This should be for three years minimum, from ages 16 to 19. There should be few exceptions and no entitlement to state benefits like university until completed.

Your profiler's view seems to me to be sound. Many young men these days do seem to suffer from loneliness and a sense of abstraction from society. This is not helped by a significant confusion as to what actually makes a man in the 21st century. What can a youngster do these days to earn society's respect? Teenage males have always undergone this confusion as to their role in society, but it is exacerbated by the kind of "feminisation" that Fragony touched on. I would also argue that the easy consumer society we have developed is feminised - man is a provider, and that is undermined by just whipping out a credit card with no thought as to consequence.

I submit that service life, properly handled and implemented (many modern countries with national service have it as a kind of extended holiday camp, easily avoided or endured) would shape the young into positive men, confident of their role. There is a great deal of peace-keeping to be done in the world, so once trained, they could be deployed in all sorts of challenging environments. They would also learn to handle firearms with respect and understanding as to their impact and power. One does not need an empire for the young to enjoy the benefits of international service.

A man needs challenges (not necessarily violence) that gives him a sense of who he is, who he can be, and allow him to feel he has earned respect.

In addition (and I do not jest here) there should be military brothels available so they get laid early. The "mystery" of sex ensnares the young mind for far too long; nowadays enflamed by ubiquitous pornographic imagery that implies the nirvana is easily obtainable for all but the viewer. Let them get it out of their system in an impersonal, yet sympathetic and non-pressured environment. Then perhaps, they can move on to understand that love (not so easily purchased) and its responsibilities and joys are the true goal of a grown man.

[Strike For The South]

Football. Thats what these boys need. Bring them to Texaas

[Fixiwee]

I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.

In a civilized societey, isn't sport supposed to help maintain a balanced agression level?
Because I'm sceptic how your argument would maintain in environment with lower social standards where kids get bullied and beaten up (aka Chavs).

[Andres]

Maybe violent games are a factor then here.

Yeah, just like property taxes

[JAG]

My answer is here:



The laws are completely pointless, and some politicians want to tighten them again.

You are completely wrong and the logic is flawed. Just because the tightened laws did not stop this shooting, it does not mean it has not stopped or reduced any shootings. I think you can use your common sense - and the great example of the US, compared to say, er.... Germany - to realise that having less guns and less avaliability to guns means less gun related deaths and shootings. To reduce gun laws after this tragedy would be the ultimate height of stupidity. Guns. Should. Be. Banned.