Europe

[Furunculus]

Hah, it does pretty much sum up majority of the opponents. They focus on things such as age old conflicts since the time of the Romans instead of a common-good.

Though, it brings me to another point, one thing I find really stupid are the idiots who keep going: "Bussels is going to steal our pints!!! instead of being a pint, it would be 500ml! even though it doesn't stop us from calling it a 'pint' we just want to keep a horrible measurement system just to be awkward." Yes, I am talking to you, the readers of the Sun newspaper, cut out the stupid arguments.

Oh, just for the record, pulling out of Europe would bring significant disadvantages which is why you don't find parties such as the "Conservatives" advocating it. The pro's really do outweigh the con's. The majority of the arguments are based on being awkard and halting progress. If they instead, tried to make Europe better by challenging the wrongs such as the method they are using, then good things might actually occur.

not really, it always comes back to the question of; why does britain need to do this? and i at least never hear a convincing answer.

my skepticism about how democratic a federal EU will be is informed by the base concept of what democracy is:

which is to say that you and I consent to be governed by the british government because the shared values, culture, and history will 'ensure' that those elected to govern in your name will do so in a manner that you can live with.
you elect a local politician based on his knowledge of your communities needs, and the assumption that because he is local he will fight to see those needs met.
your local politician then works with other broadly similar (read: british) politicians to govern the nation, which as Churchill agreed is the least bad form of governance yet devised.

it is a matter of trust, you don't lightly let convicted thieves operate tills in your shop, you don't let unvetted strangers run your kids play-group.

i don't have that confidence that the brussels collective will legislate/govern/arbitrate/negotiate in a manner that i am willing to be bound by, and lots of other people share that view too. and its not just brits, Louis would be horrified were it occur that les anglo-saxons had turned corsica into a tax-haven where french hedge fund managers could squirrel away money that should be spent on the hard working french citizen! i am dismayed that germany cuts energy deals with russia that result in pipelines going around former eastern-bloc countries and thus making them susceptible to extortion. finland doesn't like our closeness with america and refuses to join NATO. Norway sees the benefit of NATO but not much advantage in the political end of the EU. germany wouldn't trust an italian or a greek to be within a square mile of german economic policy.

every nation forms its collective values from their own shared history and culture, and none of that is bad in and of itself, but people get riled when views they do not hold to be of value are forced upon them by 'outsiders'. "it's one thing for my mother to tell me i drink too much, but who the hell does my milkman think he is to say such a thing!"

the natural answer to this lack of legitimacy is an increase in authoritarianism, as the only way to govern those who hold no loyalty to the governors. aka tryanny.

so when there is no need for britain to join a federated europe, and the only result is less representative government................ why do it?