What animals are ours to kill, and eat, and skin... etc

[LittleGrizzly]

ech, this is useless. waste of my time. pardon me while i go and take my anger out on some pixilated terrorists.

Sorry If i annoyed you but you laughed at Beskar when he said that God didn't tell people to listen to the Rabbi's, when outside of holy writings there is nothing to confirm this.

Assuming this was another religion (or you were not jewish) wouldn't you also suspect that Rabbi's told people to listen to the Rabbi's, as seen as its not your religion thier god doesn't exsist, so the possibilites of God making this order are slim...

With Beskar being an atheist (im assuming) you can not use your God as a positive argument for something... what if i told you mother Earth talks to me and said that animals suffer under Kosher methods of slaughter...

[Hooahguy]

ah, now i see...
let me cool down and maybe we can resume this debate. or not. probably just get my anger level back up.

[Beskar]

I was merely pointing out that your god said to listen to the Rabbi's. Then you said, the Rabbi's wrote the book where your god said this. Any instance of foul-play, such as the Rabbi's writing it in there for power, control and various selfish reasons is just human nature to assume and doubt what is said. Even though I didn't explicitly say it, you knew exactly what I referring to.

While you justify it asking if I believe your god said it or not, that is merely a question of faith, in essence, blind-trust, as you really do need to have to believe that your god really wrote that or not and the obvious alternative that man wrote it, posing as your god is definitely disheartening.

[Vuk]

May I point something out Cute Wolf? It is impossible to have this discussion the way you want without religion. Religion defines the world as something created and owned by someone else, so we need their permission to use what is theirs. If you do not believe in religion however, and we evolved or just are here, then everyone is his own, and either you believe in breaking the sanctity of somethings life or you don't. Do you get what I am saying?
I am a Christian, and God gave man full stewardship over all the earth, so I believe that it is not only mans right but also his responsibility to manage the earth. (Would a good steward of a house not dust the house? Or a good steward of the field not sow, weed, and reap?) What restrictions God puts on eating those animals is beside the point, as we are their stewards and have the right to kill them, skin them, or whatever else we want that does not violate God's laws.

[Cute Wolf]

Thanks for all opinion, sorry, Yesterday, I was busy and didn't have time to open internet... so sorry for that late replies...

@Cute Wolf: are there specific breeds of dog that you eat or is any breed good to eat, I don't really have any desire to eat a dog, I'm just curious. Also, have you ever slaughtered any animals you've eaten? I think it's hypocritical that people like eating meat, but think that doing the dirty work is disgusting. Don't get me wrong. I do buy my meat from the shops, but I have beheaded and plucked chickens. Slit a kangaroos throat, after my uncle shot it down, and proceeded to skin it (rather badly unfortunately) and cut it up for cooking, and I have helped cut a cow into steaks.

I allready killed, and eat several cats and dogs... they are fun to eat with your friends..... Slitting throats of cats and dogs aren't easy though... they always try to fight back... so they must be tied up bludgeoned to "KO" first with anything available (preferably hammer or axe to do a quick job, but in case u are camping in the mountain and forgot that stuff, rocks or even kicks works as well)... But to slaughter rabbits... you just need to choke their neck, stomp their backfeet, and slit their neck, that's it... they won't fight back...

Completely false. Ritual slaughter involves a knife being drawn across the unfortunate animal's throat, and it is bled to death. Which is excruciatingly painful. The animal can survive for minutes in intense pain after it's throat has been slit, and the animal is not stunned.

Of course, other animal slaughtering also uses horrific methods.

Jews and muslims are forbidden to eat anything with blood... so, they must be slitted alive, to made their blood pumped out automatically, I have some experience watching my muslim friends slaughter goats and chickens for BBQ... tied up the animals, hang them upside down, slit their throat, and wait half a hour to leat all it's blood out.... It was a religious regulation of course, and muslim and jews didn't eat most carnivores... as Hooahguy says, a sharp knive will render them instanly unconcious (not dead, but technically, they are allready "must 90% dead", I have the experience of slitting chickens until they runs their blood out... their heart are still contracting), and lessen the suffering.... and as I said from the front, don't quote too much "dogmatic" religious debate... please

You should not eat carnivors. meat eaters eating meat eaters is always bad. It has caused BSE, and I believe similar diseases among canibals as well.

You just need hygenie cooking condition... like when you slaughter and cook the pigs... BSE was caused by protein intrusion, and proteins are denaturated (deactivated permanently), after you treat them in completely boiling water for some time... it was because cannibals didn't cook their meat properly...

Being a vegetarian, I'd rather see animals being killed without suffering (which should be possible) than living its final moments in fear of the knife that will end its life.

Also, I think the scientific world has generally established not all scriptures in the Torah/Bible are correct. Or are you going to suggest the world is 6,000 years old? Of course, you can keep believing in those "fallacies", if I might be free enough to use your own speech.

I bet u are a Buddhist or Wiccan Hax... that religion belief in reincarnation, don't you, and I didn't believe that the chickens I just eat is my previous life childrens..... If I want to say according to what u say... (EDIT: SORRY HAX!!! SORRY!!!)

May I point something out Cute Wolf? It is impossible to have this discussion the way you want without religion. Religion defines the world as something created and owned by someone else, so we need their permission to use what is theirs. If you do not believe in religion however, and we evolved or just are here, then everyone is his own, and either you believe in breaking the sanctity of somethings life or you don't. Do you get what I am saying?
I am a Christian, and God gave man full stewardship over all the earth, so I believe that it is not only mans right but also his responsibility to manage the earth. (Would a good steward of a house not dust the house? Or a good steward of the field not sow, weed, and reap?) What restrictions God puts on eating those animals is beside the point, as we are their stewards and have the right to kill them, skin them, or whatever else we want that does not violate God's laws.

Ahh.. a very good point vux... but just try to minimize the religious factor, that's why God create us to dominate the wolrd, but still preserve it...

--------------------------------------------------

No, no, I don't hate pets... I know when some kind of animals goes too close, you are unseparable and become best friends... but why did most of westerners seems to generalize the "friendship" with all kind of dogs and cats?

Thanks... Cute Wolf
(Note: My name didn't said I didn't eat wolf... allready try smoked wolf slices, imported from China... that's yummy...)

[Hax]

I bet u are a Buddhist or Wiccan Hax... that religion belief in reincarnation, don't you, and I didn't believe that the chickens I just eat is my previous life childrens..... If I want to say according to what u say... Both are lame, It's extreme form pacifism is, for those who weak minded... so don't annoy another religion please... u annoy all the Abrahamic religion's faith u know... sorry...

Buddhist Vajrayana branch, Shingon sect.

First of all, you are in violation of forum rules as you are insulting my religion. This is against the rules which this forum abides to. As far as I know, I have neither annoyed nor insulted your personal religion which I believe to be Roman Catholic.

Secondly, I do not understand your problem with pacifism? I wish to make myself as clear as possible. Generally, the act of killing is regarded as an evil deed. I do not see what is wrong with trying to limit the amount of suffering in the world. If you have a different opinion, I suggest that you first try and learn what suffering is about and read about the Buddhist scriptures. My apologies for stating so, but I believe you are an ignorant person who has little to no knowledge concerning the well-being of others.

Generally speaking, people like you give other Abrahamic faithful a bad name. I sincerely hope you adjust your opinion.

[Cute Wolf]

@ HAX...

Please accept my sincrere sorry for this....

[Hax]

Heh, it's alright.

Anyways, trying to think before acting is usually a good idea.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I allready killed, and eat several cats and dogs... they are fun to eat with your friends..... Slitting throats of cats and dogs aren't easy though... they always try to fight back... so they must be tied up bludgeoned to "KO" first with anything available (preferably hammer or axe to do a quick job, but in case u are camping in the mountain and forgot that stuff, rocks or even kicks works as well)... But to slaughter rabbits... you just need to choke their neck, stomp their backfeet, and slit their neck, that's it... they won't fight back...

Why do you kill cats and dogs, and why are you out in the wilderness hunting without an axe and hammer?!

You just need hygenie cooking condition... like when you slaughter and cook the pigs... BSE was caused by protein intrusion, and proteins are denaturated (deactivated permanently), after you treat them in completely boiling water for some time... it was because cannibals didn't cook their meat properly...

Sorry, BSE isn't destroyed by boiling. It doesn't work, that belief led to cross-infection in hospitals. I stand by my point, it's not safe to eat animals that eat what you eat.

[Cute Wolf]

Why do you kill cats and dogs, and why are you out in the wilderness hunting without an axe and hammer?!

Sorry, BSE isn't destroyed by boiling. It doesn't work, that belief led to cross-infection in hospitals. I stand by my point, it's not safe to eat animals that eat what you eat.

1) Actually, it wasn't in the wilderness hunting, it was just some hiking, and when someone say... "It's a good idea to bought a cat / dog for snack..." and that happened... cats and dogs are commonly sold at what called "Animal market" intended for food here... just as pork, most people here didn't eat them, but they are still widely sold...

2) BSE is caused by misfold proteins

from wikipedia:
The infectious agent in BSE is believed to be a specific type of misfolded protein called a prion. Those prion proteins carry the disease between individuals and cause deterioration of the brain. BSE is a type of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE).[10] TSEs can arise in animals that carry an allele which causes previously normal protein molecules to contort by themselves from an alpha helical arrangement to a beta pleated sheet, which is the disease-causing shape for the particular protein. Transmission can occur when healthy animals come in contact with tainted tissues from others with the disease. In the brain these proteins cause native cellular prion protein to deform into the infectious state, which then goes on to deform further prion protein in an exponential cascade. This results in protein aggregates, which then form dense plaque fibers, leading to the microscopic appearance of "holes" in the brain, degeneration of physical and mental abilities, and ultimately death.

, boiling them is a sure way to denaturate them, and then it was safe... hey, a reason here to cut your own dogs / cats, rather than buy allready slaughtered dog / cat meat is for that: Hygenie... at least u can made sure they are properly cleaned...

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't think animals have any sorts of rights than mean we are bound to treat them any sort of way, but that does not mean that we are not responsible if we cause them unecessary suffering.

And even then, it is only OK to kill an animal when it is for a good purpose (ie food, not entertainment). I guess you could say then that we should be vegetarians if possible, but eating animals is natural, and that's what is different from killing them for fun or to look stylish in some fur... they are just human leisure pursuits, not an acceptable reason to end an animal's life.

When we do kill animals for food, it should be done as humanely as possible. There have been quite a few documentaries recently on how terribly animals are treated... chickens eat till their legs break, some other bird is stuffed with grain through a tube down its throat until its liver is ready to burst. How someone could try to defend this is beyond me. Maybe if it was to help a famine somewhere I could understand, but in the latter example I gave that bird's liver is just used as a delicacy. Never mind whatever 'rights' people think they have to treat animals any way they like, I'm all in favour of regulations to control it.

Maybe religious practises are an exception. hooah, I think it will be difficult to prove that a several thousand year old religious custom is going to be as good as the latest techniques (well the good latest techniques available, not the horrendous ones some places use nowadays). I don't think most people here would try to stop you from preparing meat the kosher way, but I think you've got to hold your hands up and say maybe it is a bit cruel.

Although kosher/halal practises are nothing compared to some of the things done for the sake of big business.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

1) Actually, it wasn't in the wilderness hunting, it was just some hiking, and when someone say... "It's a good idea to bought a cat / dog for snack..." and that happened... cats and dogs are commonly sold at what called "Animal market" intended for food here... just as pork, most people here didn't eat them, but they are still widely sold...

2) BSE is caused by misfold proteins
, boiling them is a sure way to denaturate them, and then it was safe... hey, a reason here to cut your own dogs / cats, rather than buy allready slaughtered dog / cat meat is for that: Hygenie... at least u can made sure they are properly cleaned...

Wrong, wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bse#UK_...nsed_medicines

The scientific consensus is that infectious BSE prion material is not destroyed through normal cooking procedures, meaning that contaminated beef foodstuffs prepared "well done" may remain infectious.[16][17]

[Hooahguy]

IAlthough kosher/halal practises are nothing compared to some of the things done for the sake of big business.

there was a NY time article a few months ago about some huge meat processing plant and its method of treating animals and how it was revealed through an undercover video.
ill see if i can dig it up.

[Cute Wolf]

there was a NY time article a few months ago about some huge meat processing plant and its method of treating animals and how it was revealed through an undercover video.
ill see if i can dig it up.

It was sent by some sick men at PETA, they didn't want us to eat yummy meats and wear beautiful furs for their (_ _) philoshopy....

BTW, slitting animal throat and hanging them upside down is just fine to pump out all their blood... it was a "torture" than it was yes, but at least u got cleaner food... animals aren't human, so torturing them for a purpose is ok...

[Ser Clegane]

animals aren't human, so torturing them for a purpose is ok...

Interesting statement - what qualifies as "for a purpose" in your opinion?

[Cute Wolf]

@ Ser Cleagne...
For their meat, guts, furs, bones, science projects, and everything that we can take from that animals.

In Biochemistry, or Natural Product Organic chemistry research (I see that happened, but I didn't actually perform them, coz I was at Inorganic research)... certified white mouse is used for some torture, that are very painful and u can see sadistic, but not without clear purpose. such as LD-50 (50% lethal dose) experiment... they are injected with several chemichals, without any anesthetic, and then leaved to shrieek and squeakk to their death.... counts for hours... after that, their procedural "death verification" was stabbing their backhead with something sharp... piercing their brain.... afterall, they are all put on the same cell... but animals aren't human anyway... and they didn't deserve any mercy in that case...

[Viking]

[...]but animals aren't human anyway... and they didn't deserve any mercy in that case...

Going by that logic, it would be silly to ask aliens to stop torturing humans if they ever found their way to the Earth.

[Ser Clegane]

@ Ser Cleagne...
For their meat, guts, furs, bones, science projects, and everything that we can take from that animals.

How about "just for fun"?

[Cute Wolf]

just like this? sorry to post a link to a grotesque image...

pic removed by Ser Clegane

just no... this was pointless....

[Ser Clegane]

But isn't torturing for meat etc also pointless as long as it can be avoided?

BTW, I removed the pic you posted - not really the type of picture (series) that is appropriate here (i.e., gratuitous gore)

[Vuk]

just like this? sorry to post a link to a grotesque image...


just no... this was pointless....

That is absolutely horrible. I will not ask where you found a photo like that. God said that you are not supposed to try to cause animals pain. You can use them if you need them, but you have to remember that they are not yours, but God's, and He does not want you torturing His creatures. A steward takes care of his master's property, and uses it how he is instructed. A criminal wastes and pointlessly destroys that property.
That woman must indeed be very evil. A) For wanting to cause any animal pain. B) For willing to kill anything for no reason but attention and to satisfy a sadistic tendency. C) For betraying something that trusts her that much as a kitten.
I don't know why you chose to post that picture CW, and I really do not care, because it is in very bad taste. I do not think things like that should be posted on this forum.

[Cute Wolf]

Oh, sorry, i think to put it in a spoiler and a warning... oops... sooryy....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I never think that "gore-ness" was applied to animal image (previously i read the rules, and think that only applies as human image )... sorry...

BTW, That was a prime example of what we shouldn't do... for just a fun, but if that woman just bludgeon the kitten's head to the death in proper place (such as inside a bucket, so its brain didn't dirty public properties, or at open soil), and then cook its meat as soup, that's acceptable... Did u know my point... that was pointless death... and for more, I got this pic from googling about "animal torture"

EDIT:
Torturing for meat? Try to watch videos about feline slaughter... (search for yourself) and u will know why torture for meat is sometimes unavoidable...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Torturing for meat? Try to watch videos about feline slaughter... (search for yourself) and u will know why torture for meat is sometimes unavoidable...

So don't eat cats if you can't kill them properly.

[Ser Clegane]

So don't eat cats if you can't kill them properly.

And there you hit exactly the nail that I was aiming for.
If someone insists on eating an animal that needs to be tortured to deliver the optimum in terms of taste, then this is absolulety the same as torturing "just for fun" (in this case the fun of a special dish) - hence my question in one of the previous posts.

[Cute Wolf]

And there you hit exactly the nail that I was aiming for.
If someone insists on eating an animal that needs to be tortured to deliver the optimum in terms of taste, then this is absolulety the same as torturing "just for fun" (in this case the fun of a special dish) - hence my question in one of the previous posts.

Very different than 19 y old charged w feline murder story... he doesn't ate that cat...
Phew... to made all the opinion, I'll think I'll buy a cat meat / dog meat, steak it, and bet most of the orgah here can't tell the difference w bacon... can I post the pic? not disturbing pics of course, just "before" (the life cat / dog) and "after" (ready for dinner)

[Ser Clegane]

Just to clarify - and that perhaps also fits with your other thread - generally I have no problem at all with people eating dogs or cats.
I eat pork. A pig is a very intelligent animal and certainly also can make a good pet if you would like to have one - I still prefer to have the dog as a pet and eat the pig.
I will not go around and condemn people for eating dogs and cats while at the same time I am enjoying beef and ignoring the feelings that Indians have for cows.

However, I prefer to have the animals that I eat killed swiftly and ideally without pain. If you tell me that my pork might taste better if it is tortured to death or if you tell me that a cat can only be properly slaughtered by torturing it, then I would opt out and settle for second best.
If you are torturing an animal to make it taste better, you are effectively torturing it for pleasure, i.e. for "fun" and the difference between this and a woman who stomps a cat to death because she enjoys the power-trip is somewhat marginal.

[Cute Wolf]

Just to clarify - and that perhaps also fits with your other thread - generally I have no problem at all with people eating dogs or cats.
I eat pork. A pig is a very intelligent animal and certainly also can make a good pet if you would like to have one - I still prefer to have the dog as a pet and eat the pig.
I will not go around and condemn people for eating dogs and cats while at the same time I am enjoying beef and ignoring the feelings that Indians have for cows.

However, I prefer to have the animals that I eat killed swiftly and ideally without pain. If you tell me that my pork might taste better if it is tortured to death or if you tell me that a cat can only be properly slaughtered by torturing it, then I would opt out and settle for second best.
If you are torturing an animal to make it taste better, you are effectively torturing it for pleasure, i.e. for "fun" and the difference between this and a woman who stomps a cat to death because she enjoys the power-trip is somewhat marginal.

Oh... at least now I understand your psition... many thanks... Herbivores doesn't have any "fight-back" sense, and so can quickly dispatched, but carnivores... the "fight-back" is their instinct... no wonder, their slaughter is more difficult......

Well, rating delicacies is not for mere fun.. it was diffrent level... of statisfication...
Did any sane humans enjoy decapitating chickens? I guess not... but it was required to made a good KFC!

[Jolt]

Man. It's absolutely disgusting to see how many people defend that animals suffer as much as they do because it makes other people happy. How would I enjoy to see them temporarily go through the same agony as the animals that are killed that way to see if they would still have the same opinion.

[Jolt]

Well, that sounds pretty -- wait, what?

You have no idea how much I laughed at your phrase.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh... at least now I understand your psition... many thanks... Herbivores doesn't have any "fight-back" sense, and so can quickly dispatched, but carnivores... the "fight-back" is their instinct... no wonder, their slaughter is more difficult......

Well, rating delicacies is not for mere fun.. it was diffrent level... of statisfication...
Did any sane humans enjoy decapitating chickens? I guess not... but it was required to made a good KFC!

Any animal can be quickly dispatched if killed gently and with consideration. Sheep, pigs and cows most certainly do have a "fight-back" instinct, as I can tell you from marking and sheering them.

A delicacy is nothing more than an expression of human vanity. You do require cat or dog meat to live, and given that you'll bash their head in with a rock after tying them up you're clearly not bothered about the suffering.

So far your arguement is still just, "because I want to", which is Ser's point.