Hoplitai too weak ?

[Macilrille]

Ditto what Maion said, the word was "othismos" from Greek "othizein" meaning to shove, othismos essentially meaning "the shove" similar to the concept of push of pike. The characteristic movement of a Polybian era Roman army was a slow step back (i.e. Romans fought rather defensively) as observed by Polybius himself whereas the characteristic movement of a Classical Hellenic phalanx was forward motion. If you want to read about hoplite war as described by an authoritative Classical Hellenist military historian read "The Western Way of War" by Victor Hanson who is arguably the top modern authority on 5th and 4th century BCE Hellenic Warfare.

The key is that the Greek phalanx tried to conserve forward motion. After the opposed phalanxes collided many spears tended to shatter and others could be simply be discarded in favor of the kopis. If you want source, I think Maion was probably alluding to Xenophon's description of the second battle of Koroneia c. 394 BC between the Spartan allied forces and the Thebans/Athenians, as described by Xenophon in the Hellenica, I don't have the Greek with me offhand but I have read it, it said more or less "and so they charged, they collided, they pushed, they died" or something to that effect. This was classic othismos between the Theban and Spartan phalanx. Phalanx conflicts tended to devolve into press of shield on shield. Similarly at the Battle of Leuctra Epaminondas massed his Thebans on the left 50 men deep precisely to maximize the othismos impact of the Thebans and overwhelm with sheer pressure the small fraction of actual Spartiates in the opposing army. The strategy worked and the king of Sparta died in the press and subsequent rupture. According to Hanson in fact one of the leading causes of death in classical hoplite warfare is trampling.

Since you are biased for vikings et al. then perhaps you are aware that in north europe shield press was also used, as for example one account of the death of Ragnar Lothbrok holds that since none of the Anglo-Saxons could beat Ragnar in battle the Anglo-Saxon king commanded his men to bear Ragnar down with shields, he was then flattened to the ground by grouped shield pressure, imprisoned in a pit and subsequently executed. It might be in the Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok if you are curious to verify.

In short shields are weapons that can be used to inflict blunt trauma by shieldboss strikes (a tactic often used by the Romans as for example at the Battle of Aquae Sextiae consistent with Marius' instructions) as well as general pressure through massed press of shields, and that tactic was used all over Europe in some degree from ancient times up to and including the viking era.

Now here we are making some sense, thanks for the sources, sense and case. I shall try and see what we may glean from it.

Regnar and other heroes were caught between shields, yes, it was apparently a common tactic when many faced a hero/champion that none could take individually and they wanted to preserve (nevermind that most of the stories attributed to Regnar is pure myth, the point was the shield-against-hero, which is valid). As such the Vikings are not in fact described anywhere to fight in such a press. But that matters little, we can agree that shields against champion was done and was a good and valid way of neutralising such a one.

Now for ancient armies doing it, I still fail to see any source validating Phalanx' claim that it was 10- 20 cm. But of course I also have no source for them not doing so. I also have no source saying that they did not fly...

Now I shall try and elaborate my reasoning and arrogant as I am, my source is me. yes me!!! With 16 years of experience as a fighter, commander, trainer, organiser and tactician of one of the two most famous and praised Viking Re-enactment group around I do believe I can claim to have some small knowledge of group fighting. And as TDH said we do not actually know, so we have to use some sense and interpretation. Actual fighting experience is not a bad basis to build this on I would say.

1. Hoplitai fought with spears, spears are most effective at the sharp end. Basically you want to keep your opponent at a distance where your spearpoint can reach him, your spear is your primary weapon, so no need to immediately ditch it and move in to dagger distance.

2. In a press of people, you cannot move. Seriously, consider the implication of this. All of us have been in a press of people where we have been penned in, arm and leg movement restricted, your long nice spear useless if you had one (why have it then?), as is your shield wielded offensively- you need room for that as well. Now imagine that while people are trying to kill you. And as you are not wearing full medieval plate you have vulnerable points where you can actually be killed or severely injured. I have tried such situations (try searching for "Wolin" on Youtube) and it is suicide (especially at Wolin where the battle pins Russians and Poles hating each other against each other- there are serious injuries every year).

3. Fighting like that is extremely exhausting, especially in the temperatures one can get around the Mediterenean. Unless relieved, no one can do that for much more than half an hour. The consensus today is that ancient and medieval armies would clash- seperate- clash- seperate, not fight continuosly. The ones doing the actual fighting would simply pass out from overheating, dehydration and exhaustion (the two first being in my experience the worst). Again, recall when you have been in a press of people, did you sweat and get overheated? Did you have to drink lots water to avoid dehydration?

These are my reasons for saying, "No Phalanx300, Hoplite/Phalanx combat did not, as a rule, take place at 10- 20 cm". However, I have no doubt that it sometimes happened, my point is that the smart commander would try to avoid it.

Instead I suggest that we interpret the push as happening at spear point length (which it can, I have seen it often) and only in rare cases getting close, and never at 10- 20 cm, which is what I originally opposed. I suggest Phalanx300 that you line up a few of your friends, equip them with broomsticks and move in so close to each other, I am fairly certain you will understand my point then. 10- 20 cm is very close, too close to do anything defensively and effectively too close for even a short sword like the kopis or the infamous and nasty Gladius Hispanensis to be very effective.

As for the nice parade soldiers marching about Phalanx, I have no doubt they are very good at what they do as a profession, but they are not fighters.
All of us here know a lot of history. That does not make us fighters, even I cannot say with certainty how Vikings did things, but I can make a hell of a lot better guess than some archelogist or historian who has never held a weapon, while my sword is well-worn by hundreds of hours of use.


Anyway, my general point is that though "Rugby Scrums" could happen, it was best to avoid them for the reasons above. Though of course hemming in the enemy and pressing them was desirable.
Will you guys buy this? Or perhaps Geticus can elaborate to a new interpretation from which we can actually build an understanding?

Now I will go and use my own pike and sword- shield ;-)