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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai too weak ?

    Now for ancient armies doing it, I still fail to see any source validating Phalanx' claim that it was 10- 20 cm. But of course I also have no source for them not doing so. I also have no source saying that they did not fly...
    Yes, and EB which also support my claim obviously has Hoplites flying to the sky right? And there are sources which indicate a shield wall formation, and from vase painting we can conclude that overhand was used in the shield wall.

    Now I shall try and elaborate my reasoning and arrogant as I am, my source is me. yes me!!! With 16 years of experience as a fighter, commander, trainer, organiser and tactician of one of the two most famous and praised Viking Re-enactment group around I do believe I can claim to have some small knowledge of group fighting. And as TDH said we do not actually know, so we have to use some sense and interpretation. Actual fighting experience is not a bad basis to build this on I would say.
    Indeed, and from Chinese martial arts we can decide what Western European martial arts were all about?

    1. Hoplitai fought with spears, spears are most effective at the sharp end. Basically you want to keep your opponent at a distance where your spearpoint can reach him, your spear is your primary weapon, so no need to immediately ditch it and move in to dagger distance.
    In one on one combat yes, but we're talking about a closely packed formation here.

    2. In a press of people, you cannot move. Seriously, consider the implication of this. All of us have
    been in a press of people where we have been penned in, arm and leg movement restricted, your long nice spear useless if you had one (why have it then?), as is your shield wielded offensively- you need room for that as well. Now imagine that while people are trying to kill you. And as you are not wearing full medieval plate you have vulnerable points where you can actually be killed or severely injured. I have tried such situations (try searching for "Wolin" on Youtube) and it is suicide (especially at Wolin where the battle pins Russians and Poles hating each other against each other- there are serious injuries every year).
    Which is exactly why an overhand use with the spear is used, you retain control and use of an spear, even when closely packed together.

    3. Fighting like that is extremely exhausting, especially in the temperatures one can get around the Mediterenean. Unless relieved, no one can do that for much more than half an hour. The consensus today is that ancient and medieval armies would clash- seperate- clash- seperate, not fight continuosly. The ones doing the actual fighting would simply pass out from overheating, dehydration and exhaustion (the two first being in my experience the worst). Again, recall when you have been in a press of people, did you sweat and get overheated? Did you have to drink lots water to avoid dehydration?
    I doubt it, why would the pushig otherwise be deadly if the Hoplites stopped fighting all the time? How could Hoplite Phalanxes envelop other formation when they stopped fighting all the time? How come dead soldiers kept standing in an battle when they stopped fighting all the time.

    All of this points at the direction that a Hoplite phalanx kept going till the enemy routed, which usually happened as one side's formation was broken by another Phalanx.

    These are my reasons for saying, "No Phalanx300, Hoplite/Phalanx combat did not, as a rule, take place at 10- 20 cm". However, I have no doubt that it sometimes happened, my point is that the smart commander would try to avoid it.
    The essence of Hoplite Phalanx combat is an dense formation, that way vs less dense formation your Phalanx has an definately advantage. Hoplites would thus get very closely together, probably around the 20 cm.

    Instead I suggest that we interpret the push as happening at spear point length (which it can, I have seen it often) and only in rare cases getting close, and never at 10- 20 cm, which is what I originally opposed. I suggest Phalanx300 that you line up a few of your friends, equip them with broomsticks and move in so close to each other, I am fairly certain you will understand my point then. 10- 20 cm is very close, too close to do anything defensively and effectively too close for even a short sword like the kopis or the infamous and nasty Gladius Hispanensis to be very effective.
    Perhaps its more 20-30 cm also counting shield thickness and armour. As I said, overhand effectively terminates any problems which underhand has in close formation. Why do you think Spartans got a small sword? Smaller then the rest of the Greeks? Spartans perfected the Hoplite Phalanx, this prooves that Hoplite combat was closely packed, in which short swords such as the Spartans used it excells. The 60cm sword of other Greeks was less usefull in such a closely packed formation.

    As for the nice parade soldiers marching about Phalanx, I have no doubt they are very good at what they do as a profession, but they are not fighters.
    All of us here know a lot of history. That does not make us fighters, even I cannot say with certainty how Vikings did things, but I can make a hell of a lot better guess than some archelogist or historian who has never held a weapon, while my sword is well-worn by hundreds of hours of use.
    Neither are you yet you are talking they don't know shit and you do, while I can guarantee they know their stuff about Spartans and Hoplites far better then you, remember members of them are Historians and Researchers as well. Actually, an Hoplite reenactor died in an accident while filming a documentary, it has its risks obviously.

    Anyway, my general point is that though "Rugby Scrums" could happen, it was best to avoid them for the reasons above. Though of course hemming in the enemy and pressing them was desirable.
    Will you guys buy this? Or perhaps Geticus can elaborate to a new interpretation from which we can actually build an understanding?

    Now I will go and use my own pike and sword- shield ;-)
    Staying at a meter away and trying to hit your enemy is way to ineffective, lets see how that works out against an formation which holds it density:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RF...eature=related

    Compare this "Phalanx" vs the other one I posted, you should be able to tell that the denser one would have been far more effective.


    Maybe the effective "push" was done to definitively break a line that was effectively willing to break.

    FIrst, hoplite fought at spear-distance, THEN they push forward, trying to smash the enemy with shields. When pushing, they were at direct contact with the enemy, so 10cm as Phalanx300 said, and spear was useless in this phase as Macrille said. If the enemy broke, they can rout him.

    So, maybe the huge tiring rate due to heavy pushing lasted only 30seconds or a minute: if the enemy resists, maybe the hoplite line step backwards and got back to spears. This avoided the Hoplite to get too tired in a continuate push against a still fresh enemy.

    Just my tought, but it seems logical.
    First in loose formation fighting at a metres away and then quickly make a dense formation without the enemy attacking in a dense formation first and easilly breaking your line? I don't really see how this would work it.
    Last edited by Phalanx300; 06-30-2009 at 19:45.

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