Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[athanaric]

You mean their javelins, right? Because they would not last a second in melee. And mounted skirmishers always have very little ammunition, not to mention 50 men is smaller than the usual 120 for levy skirmisher units (on large unit size of course).

Actually, the ammo of mounted skirmishers varies a lot. Arachosians for examples have no less than 14 javelins. The elite guys I was referring to have six or eight javelins, which usually is enough to rout one unit of elephants or at least damage them heavily. Plus mounted skirmishers have the advantage of being able to outrun charging elephants. Their higher mobility enables them to catch elephants long before the latter reach your line.

[godsakes]

I think you mistake the purpose of the Ambakaro Epones. Like two other very similar units, the Taxilan Agema and the Hippeis Tarantinoi, they are very effective in what they are supposed to do (aside from chasing routers):
These guys are commando troops. They are meant to take out the enemy's most valuable units, i.e. generals and elephants. They can defeat most other cavalry in melee (except cataphracts or Hetairoi of course), plus they are dedicated elephant-killers. They can even hold their own against infantry for some time. By contrast, Iberi Lanceari suck at elephant-killing and chasing of routing enemies.

i'm not really convinced a luso army really needs to worry about elephants, in any case there are better value options for that role, the Caetranann light infantry has 6x spears and there are plently of cheaper light cavalry options armed with javlins.

as for taking out the general, i don't see how you could do it before a) getting swamped by the rest of their army b) or if both armies have engaged the general has probably charged at your lines/flank anyway and you'd be swamping them with infantry/spearmen and blocking their escape with any old unit of cavalry. (however i won't rule out this role until i've tried it myself)

[Cute Wolf]

Well, looking for that discussion, I also want to say that ambakaro Eppones are virtually worthless against Karthadast or Romaioi army, as your Lusotann FM has them in their command and that was free for charge.... but of course, that will be a different story if u faced tons of Celts... A suick work for them is a bloody swords, and for that hacking through celts job... Ambakaro Eppones is among one of the best (first softening with javelins, and after that... kill those pitiful shortswordsmen... I even have routed 4 units of celtic shortswords with just an half depleted Ambakaro Eppones

[athanaric]

Well, looking for that discussion, I also want to say that ambakaro Eppones are virtually worthless against Karthadast or Romaioi army, as your Lusotann FM has them in their command and that was free for charge.... [...]

On the contrary, they are very useful against Romaioi or Qarthadastim: they can chase and defeat generals, especially Romaioi FMs, in melee, and they can kill Carthaginian elephants with their javelins. When playing against the AI, I usually try to take out the general first, in order to get rid of the sometimes ridiculous morale boni he provides for his army. For this job, an extra unit of Ambakaro Epones comes in handy.

[Andronikos]

Playing a Bactrian campaign, I started using Arachosians rgularly and I am satisfied, they quickly get behind enemy, considerably weaken enemy line infantry (mostly phalanx) with javelins (I have better results with CC turned on) and then hunt routing units.
But I would like to know your opinion. What is the best javelin unit in the east - Arachosians, Dahae skirmishers, Taxilans, Peltastai, Thuerophoroi...?


I also noticed, that the light Indian spearmen are surprisingly strong, they were able to hold my infantry and cause serious casualties without losing many men.

[Phalanx300]

The Ridanz(Sites name, in game name is different, could someone please update the names of the sites units?!)

They look pretty weak and they are in a sense, they are easilly underestimated, I remember from online matches their deadlyness. Against armoured units they are futile, though they did managed to keep Hetairoi stalled in combat for a long time!(Even longer if they can't charge properly) The real killers are their javelins! One depleted unit of them took out an entire Elephant unit! Or rather it killed half of them and the rast ran amok.

Their javelins are also good cavalry killers as long as they aren't that heavilly armoured.

[athanaric]

Playing a Bactrian campaign, I started using Arachosians rgularly and I am satisfied, they quickly get behind enemy, considerably weaken enemy line infantry (mostly phalanx) with javelins (I have better results with CC turned on) and then hunt routing units.
But I would like to know your opinion. What is the best javelin unit in the east - Arachosians, Dahae skirmishers, Taxilans, Peltastai, Thuerophoroi...?


I also noticed, that the light Indian spearmen are surprisingly strong, they were able to hold my infantry and cause serious casualties without losing many men.

Arachosians and Dahae are almost the same, with the Arachosians having slightly better defense stats (1 armour instead of zero). Taxilans are expensive elite and very tough in melee, for their use see my post above.
Peltastai are one of the best known units in the game, so there is probably no need to describe them. They are very weak vs. cavalry though, compared to other infantry of their class. Thureophoroi, OTOH, can be very nasty vs. cavalry.
Baktrian Hillmen are very useful skirmishers as they are inexpensive, have a large unit size, and AP axes for melee. Tabargâne Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen) have four javelins and a frightening range (~60.5 m). Hyrkanians, the Drapanai of the East (IMO), are more melee-oriented with "only" three javelins, but very high morale (15, same as Drapanai).

[A Very Super Market]

Peltastai are skirmishers, but with more holding ability. They aren't meant to fight cavalry, except maybe with javelins. Akonstistai stick around and throw javelins, Peltastai do the same, but charge in afterwards.

[Andy1984]

Today I was pleasantly surprised by the capabilities of my Equites Campanici. I used them (in several battles) to flank Getai and Lusotanni infantry that fought my main line. A single volley of javelins in their back, combined with a charge (if needs be) made almost everything rout. (Works best when deployed against lightly armoured units, shooting them in their flanks or backs... ) If it weren't for my campanici, I would have lost that battle against the Getai (65% kills vs 79% at the end of the battle... bloody barbarians).

In the past the campanici already turned out to be brilliant infantry killers (even in hand to hand combat). I wonder what the probably superior Arachosians would do to eastern armies if deployed properly. I never even bothered with these guys, so I don't know.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Tabargâne Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen) for Baktria are a very very good choice. They are perfect at flanking, weaken with javelins (awesome range) and finally charge in and cut enemy phalanxes into piecies. Axes rules.

[athanaric]

In the past the campanici already turned out to be brilliant infantry killers (even in hand to hand combat). I wonder what the probably superior Arachosians would do to eastern armies if deployed properly. I never even bothered with these guys, so I don't know.

Keep in mind that Arachosians are unarmoured, so they are weaker in melee than Equites Campanici. They got axes though which can be brutal against armoured units, like lance-armed heavy HAs.

[Andronikos]

I'm using Tabargâne Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen) and they perform good. They also get experience quickly. Unfortunately, they are primary target for enemy archers.
I believed that eastern axemen and baktrian light infantry are the same.
I will compare that three units - eastern axemen, baktrian light inf. and hyrkanian hillmen in few battles and than post my experience.

Thureophoroi are my basic mid-game phalanx-flank protecting infantry.

[satalexton]

bakrian infantry have less attack, but they still have AP axes, and more importantly, large shields. I use them to screen my catanks and spearhead wall assaults, which their resilence, large unit size, and large shields would make them an excellent first wave.

[antisocialmunky]

Eastern Axemen has slightly less morale but have higher mass and a ridiculous javelin range.(60m)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I like the Hyrkanian Hillmen more than the other two but I also love Eastern Axemen. For whatever reason, I find myself using the Hyrkanians as more of line units and Easterns as flankers but that might be just because I have very little melee infantry in my anti-Pahlav army as the Arche. Instead tons of Persian Archer Spearmen. The Baktrians are actually a skirmisher unit but they can do decently well in melee though not as well as the aforementioned. Havn't used them all that much but when I do it is purely as a support unit against infantry.

[John the Mad]

The samnite?(sp)medium infantry the romans can recruit.I'm tempted to say they are better then the regular roman army units i can recruit.I have four units of them and use them as a group to garrison newly conquered cities,put down rebel groups that pop up,and to fill out a legion to full strength when needed.

The first time i used them in battle i thought it a fluke,but after several battles with them,they seem to put more of a hurt on an enemy unit faster and with less casualties then their roman brothers in arms.I just recently had them take down the carthaginian faction heirs unit,he was very,very,good in his bonuses and my general had negative traits.They wiped out his unit,about 128 men,and suffered only 19 casualties in return.I was suprised because the first unit had been charged into from uphill,on the move,and his charge barely scratched them.They also tear to shreds the rebel roman units that pop up with four or five units in man on man battles and have done great against the couple of phalanxes they've faced.Though they haven't faced any celts.After each battle i usually have a minimum of 20-30 roman casualties per unit engaged playing with the largest unit setting(though in gaul i've had many units whittled down to 30 men during a battle)with them i can normally count their losses per unit on one hand and sometimes one finger.

This is one unit that has really taken me by suprise.I'm glad i recruited them instead of maxing out the units i could afford with one more each of hastati,principes,and triaii.

[satalexton]

wow, you ARE mad

[John the Mad]

wow, you ARE mad

Why because i bought them instead of the regular roman infantry or that i think their suprisingly good?

Or is it because i wear my socks as mittens?

I had to restart my game because of a corrupted save game but i bought four units early this time to fill out my legion.Those four took Tara almost single handidly.One unit was slaughtering a phalanx while fighting to get in the gate and it wasn't until the AI charged almost all its melee units and horse into it did they force it back out.It was down to about a third of its men and it never wavered while being surrounded on three sides and getting pummled.I charged the other three units one at a time to take back the gate routed the Epirion army and marched on the square.I had to bring up a unit of principes though to help them take it since by that time they were exhausted and there was a fresh hoplite unit holding the square,not to mention all the routers getting their bravery back.At the end of the battle the units were down to 53,59,101,and109 men respectively.There were 1200 enemy casualties at the end and i'd say about a 1000 were due to them.

Not bad considering they took their worst at the gate,which is almost always a meat grinder,while fighting into it,getting thrown out,then retaking it again.I couldn't even move my general up,to boost them,until they had secured the gate because they had several missle units hanging near the wall having a good old time shooting up the units outside of it.I had two units of slingers up near the wall to try to drive them off but their really finicky about when they will shoot over walls.I didn't want to chance a lucky barrage killing him.

[Olaf The Great]

I've had good experiences with the Casse Chariots, and considering chariots are notorious for being fail-mobiles with a bugged attack...well ok they do have a bugged attack.

Contrary to what everyone keeps saying, it seems to work much better for me when I -do- plow through Enemy lines, especially if it's a phalanx(Of course I would try to flank them) as it scatters the enemy so badly that a quick AP or .225 infantry charge can destroy them. Just make sure they don't get 'stuck" which is a major drawback.

They're like cheap elephants.

[athanaric]

I've had good experiences with the Casse Chariots, and considering chariots are notorious for being fail-mobiles with a bugged attack...well ok they do have a bugged attack.

Contrary to what everyone keeps saying, it seems to work much better for me when I -do- plow through Enemy lines, especially if it's a phalanx(Of course I would try to flank them) as it scatters the enemy so badly that a quick AP or .225 infantry charge can destroy them. Just make sure they don't get 'stuck" which is a major drawback.

They're like cheap elephants.

I think it is also noteworthy that they have a very high morale, very much unlike other chariots or elephants.

To be more specific:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Morale:

Cidainh: 16
Harmata Drepanephora: 6

Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi/Pilei Ya'ar Libim (Forest Elephants): 8
Elephantes Indikoi/Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi: 7
Elephantes Liboukoi (Bush Elephants): 4

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah pretty much. They are good if they just hang around...

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah pretty much. They are good if they just hang around...

hang arround and u get those every kind of infantry bring u down very quickly..

they should keep moving or die

[jerby]

Okay, have been playing for while:

Surprisingly good:

They're pretty cheap for the job they do, and in close melee they can take on pretty heavy units. When you're defending on the walls, you just don't want to run into these guys. (added bonusses are javelins offcourse)

But, after some good experiences with the agrianikoi, I'm not sure about these fellos:

They're a lot more expensive than the Agrianikoi, but don't really deliver. They're good shock-troops, but after that charge they die way to fast in melee.
But then in another battle, I was to preoccupied with other stuff, I just let them hack at some peltastai/thorakitai or so, and they wound up with 30 losses and 150 kills, on a flat plain, just h2h...

[Conradus]

That are the Thrakian Rhompadoroi (or whatever their name is), right?

Well then I disagree, my field armies have at least one of those and they're excellent flankers. They rip through any formation and I've even seen them take the enemies' general bodyguard head on and not falter.

[Moros]

That are the Thrakian Rhompadoroi (or whatever their name is), right?

Well then I disagree, my field armies have at least one of those and they're excellent flankers. They rip through any formation and I've even seen them take the enemies' general bodyguard head on and not falter.

Yeah usually they tear every unit apart when flanking. And most when head on except when facing large number unit. But then again using them against anything but heavily armoured units, is a waste.

[DaciaJC]

But, after some good experiences with the agrianikoi, I'm not sure about these fellos:

They're a lot more expensive than the Agrianikoi, but don't really deliver. They're good shock-troops, but after that charge they die way to fast in melee.
But then in another battle, I was to preoccupied with other stuff, I just let them hack at some peltastai/thorakitai or so, and they wound up with 30 losses and 150 kills, on a flat plain, just h2h...

I find them to be unsurprisingly *amazing*. I wouldn't put them in head-to-head combat, though, as that may leave them exposed to missile fire, which is their one weakness.

[A Very Super Market]

They are the top AP unit in EB, apart from the lowly slinger :P

Against normal enemies, the falx is of less use than a spear or sword. Peltastai don't wear too much armour, and carry swords, and have more men, making a head-on match with Rhomps seem horribly unbalanced. However, if you set the Rhomps loose on the flank of some Spartans, they will tear them apart. These guys even work against cataphracts.

[mountaingoat]

Against normal enemies, the falx is of less use than a spear or sword.

yeah i don't know about that , they seem to tear apart armored and non armored units, both online and in SP.

falx units just tend to cut through any armor like butter.

[A Very Super Market]

Well frankly, they're overkill for most levies without armour. But falxmen are so cheap that it doesn't really matter that they take more casualties than if they fought an armoured unit, so it doesn't make too much of a difference.

[DaciaJC]

Well frankly, they're overkill for most levies without armour. But falxmen are so cheap that it doesn't really matter that they take more casualties than if they fought an armoured unit, so it doesn't make too much of a difference.

I would consider sending Rhomps. against levies as overkill, not Drapanai. They [Drapanai/falxmen] boast a lethality of .26, so they can rip apart un-armored units just as easily as their AP ability allows them to do to armored units. I don't believe they would suffer more casualties by fighting levies, even if there was a significant difference in the number of enemy soldiers, because of the ease they would enjoy slaughtering un-armored troops.