Some terrorists bomb My Country!

[Hax]

Old Testament is pre-Jesus. First four books of the New Testament are the Gospels of Matthew, Gospels of Mark, Gospels of Luke, Gospels of John. Human "accounts" of Jesus. Christians may claim a lot, but that the books of the Bible being transcribed directly from God is not one of them.

True; however, the actions of Jesus (following the logic that he is divinely inspired by God, after all, he is supposed to be his son) are divine on its own? Does the doubt exist that not all of his actions are supposed to have been inspired by God?

To be honest, if there is something I really dislike is when people suggest that Christianity is somehow less inclined to be militant than Islam. I'm sickened by the fact that still the suggestion exists that Islam is somehow more barbaric than Christianity, as it is historically incorrect. Not only historically, but also culturally and ethnically.

At best, it's Islamophobic and at worst dehumanizing. It's almost as if people forget the millions of Islamic people who haven't done harm to anyone in any way.


The message of the Prophet and Jesus was the same; one of love and peace. Both religions have done atrocities, and both probably will do so in the future (or have we forgotten Vietnam, for example). I think both actions (persecution and terrorism) is born out of ignorance, and ignorance is an evil that is impossible to fight with weapons.

Saying that Christianity/Islam is inherent to enlightenment is just as ignorant as stating that all Muslims/Christians are lesser people. I also think we can all state that at least the second part isn't true.


EDIT: I might have made a few mistakes when it comes to Christianity; it has been a long time since I read any Christian scriptures; the message remains the same, though.

[drone]

rory_20_uk's point was that the Koran was absolute, while the Bible is a set of various interpretations, stories, and lessons, with a final shroom trip at the end. The four gospels are four different interpretations of the life of Jesus, each from a different point of view and with a different purpose (and selected by the Church from a bevy of candidate books to be put in the final Bible, and edited, and translated, and edited some more). Leeway for interpretation is practically built in, the texts were written at least several decades after Jesus, and the final canon wasn't decided on until ~300-400 years after Jesus's death. The Koran is not to be touched, it stands as it was written, the word of God told to his final prophet.

Regardless, both are subject to being quoted out of context. Hence the fanatics, with the killing and the blood and the gore.

Apart from being geographically close to the original topic, how exactly does Vietnam come into this discussion? I must say, I have never before heard the theory that the Vietnam action was a religious war.

[Hax]

Apart from being geographically close to the original topic, how exactly does Vietnam come into this discussion? I must say, I have never before heard the theory that the Vietnam action was a religious war.

I was referring to the Buddhist persecution by the Christian government; hence the burning of Thich Quang Duc.

[HoreTore]

rory_20_uk's point was that the Koran was absolute, while the Bible is a set of various interpretations, stories, and lessons, with a final shroom trip at the end. The four gospels are four different interpretations of the life of Jesus, each from a different point of view and with a different purpose (and selected by the Church from a bevy of candidate books to be put in the final Bible, and edited, and translated, and edited some more). Leeway for interpretation is practically built in, the texts were written at least several decades after Jesus, and the final canon wasn't decided on until ~300-400 years after Jesus's death.

If this is your christian belief, then fine.

But to say this is the belief of every christian, then you're wrong. Even if you say it's the belief of the majority, then it's still irrelevant, as the crazies are the minority.

And there are plenty of christian fundamentalists who believe that the bible is the word of god, final and complete. Why else do you think there are creationists? Heck, it's actually the christian belief of the christians here where I live, I only found out some years ago that a lot of christians don't consider the bible to be the direct word of god, which was what I had learned in my childhood.

And if you think that there is no interpretation, discussion and renewal in Islam, you're simply ignorant. Sorry.

@Rory: huh, I got the same impression reading the bible you got from reading the koran....

[Leet Eriksson]

True; however, the actions of Jesus (following the logic that he is divinely inspired by God, after all, he is supposed to be his son) are divine on its own? Does the doubt exist that not all of his actions are supposed to have been inspired by God?

To be honest, if there is something I really dislike is when people suggest that Christianity is somehow less inclined to be militant than Islam. I'm sickened by the fact that still the suggestion exists that Islam is somehow more barbaric than Christianity, as it is historically incorrect. Not only historically, but also culturally and ethnically.

At best, it's Islamophobic and at worst dehumanizing. It's almost as if people forget the millions of Islamic people who haven't done harm to anyone in any way.


The message of the Prophet and Jesus was the same; one of love and peace. Both religions have done atrocities, and both probably will do so in the future (or have we forgotten Vietnam, for example). I think both actions (persecution and terrorism) is born out of ignorance, and ignorance is an evil that is impossible to fight with weapons.

Saying that Christianity/Islam is inherent to enlightenment is just as ignorant as stating that all Muslims/Christians are lesser people. I also think we can all state that at least the second part isn't true.


EDIT: I might have made a few mistakes when it comes to Christianity; it has been a long time since I read any Christian scriptures; the message remains the same, though.

People seem to forget that it goes beyond religion. Its pretty convenient albeit superficial to blame a religion when it goes far deeper beyond that.

On another note, JI denies involvement, however the people who did it were linked (though they had a fallout with JI).

[Samurai Waki]

Ah, religious discussions.

stoking a flame that need not be stoked.

[Cute Wolf]

There is no way to discuss with those who do not listen. That is why, after valiant attempts at expressing our own views on this very website, we often have to take a breather once in a while. Fanatical devotion to one's own worldview to the point where you refuse to take criticism and consider everything else to automatically be a lie... is a form of madness. I believe I've mentioned something along these lines before and the reaction tweren't enthusiastic.


I do think that we're veering off-topic now. If we aren't discussing the actual attack in Indonesia, we should start a new thread.

Ohh, but I think they are still very relevant to the situation here... The Muslims are actually a good people, even my Girlfriend is muslim wearing headscarf... remember? but the discussion of fanaticism isn't an off topic because they are directly linked. Thanks ATPZG

Once again, those terrorist groups strike again in Indonesia. Why is that? Is it just to hit a random Western tourist location in a country where security isn't that tight or is there some kind of "problem" (Everything's a problem for the extremists) with Indonesia?

In any case, I find Indonesia the perfect example of a country that shouldn't exist. It is an amalgamation of different islands with very different backgrounds, historically and culturally. It has been kept united through the iron fist of a central government. East Timor is but the most known case because Portugal made great pressure at international levels, due to being a former Portuguese colony. Aceh and Papua New-Guinea are just another cases of lands which do not want to be under Indonesian control, just like Tibet and North-East India.

Ohh, I think it was a 'soft' group bashing , but I forgive you this time

Well, personally, many countries shouldn't exist if the diffrences are present, or they were originally an occupation force... I don't hate US, but they actually "stole" those land from native Americans with treacherous pacts, for example, and North Ireland in UK is really the same thing. And those [snip... hehehe...] east timor, are the best example on how a lesser people's will can be bent by several foreign interests. Actually, the invisible hands in east timor affair wasn't any country or humanitarian organization... it was [snip... hehehe...] multinational company that only interested in exploiting oil and gas reserve at the Timor sea. They do the same in Papua (not PNG, correction for you) and Aceh. Well, if u look at the timor lestenese conitions now, they are more [snip... hehehe...], [snip... hehehe...], and [snip... hehehe...] compared from the times they are still under Indonesian control. Portugal are just try to exploit the chaos in Indonesian government that time, and sadly their [snip... hehehe...] tactics are prevailed...

well, I put [snip... hehehe...] because I got an infraction for saying something bad about them.

Well, every country has its own "claimed area" and that will goes almost against any humanitarian principles. But with that, maybe Megas Alexandros will be arrested for Invading Persia, and England should have a heavy sanction for annexing wales and scotlands... well, If a race or Area in your own country try to separate themself (the very same as Rebellions in TW ), did your country only let them go, and not sending armed forces to quell them?

Eng... you should learn from that perspective.... that's all, thank you.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Me, I'd rather describe Indonesia as Javan colonialism taking over after independence where the Dutch left off. Only this time, far more intense. Indonesia is a colonial power, brutally oppressing '[snip] lesser peoples'.

[Cute Wolf]

Me, I'd rather describe Indonesia as Javan colonialism taking over after independence where the Dutch left off. Only this time, far more intense. Indonesia is a colonial power, brutally oppressing '[snip] lesser peoples'.

Hey, we, Javanese never opress another race, despite we are the majority (even in fact, I was half Javaneese)... And many of our founding fathers aren't javanese either.

And what did u say about "brutally opressing?"

[Jolt]

Well, personally, many countries shouldn't exist if the diffrences are present, or they were originally an occupation force... I don't hate US, but they actually "stole" those land from native Americans with treacherous pacts, for example, and North Ireland in UK is really the same thing.

True. At least half of it is. The US shouldn't really exist, or should at the very least be confined to its original boundaries in my opinion. They are a special case, however, given the fact that they have basically wiped out the native ethnicities and their country wasn't made up by an higher and lower peoples (And you said yourself in your post about East Timor), but since that is well in the past, as much as it pains me to nod, I accept their presence as a single sovereign entity. History is very important, because it means the cultures are gone and cannot be retrieved and enforced upon the majority of the present population. Such is the case of the USA, unlike Indonesia.

I would apply such an opinion on a myriad of countries. Spain castillianizes Galicians, Basques and Catalunians, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. England did the same to Welsh and Scottish, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. North Ireland is reportedly mostly inhabitted by Scottish, so a condominium between Scotland and Ireland would be a possible solution, in my point of view. France successfully did it to Occitans, Bretons and Burgundians (History again), therefore I accept that France remains with its current continental boundaries (Corsica shouldn't remain French, however.) India should desintegrate into a myriad of states, as should Pakistan (Baluchistan and Punjab/Khalistan pops up to my mind as the most blatant cases), China should lose most of its external territory (Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia), it should not however, lose for instance Manchuria (Manchu culture), Yunnan (Ancient Di and other non-Han tribes which were assimilated), and finally, Guizhou, Hunan, Jiangxi, Fujian, Guangzhou Huainan and Guangxi, which were territories which originally were home to many non-Han ethnicities, gradually assimilated into the Chinese (Han) ethnicity, recognized by the old Chinese emperors as barbarians. Since this cultures have large and by been absorbed in the course of history, and their distinct culture lost, I can accept that they are legitimatly part of the country they belong to. Africa would be a very special case. Since many people of the same ethnicities have already have seperate histories by being part of different colonies, the whole of Africa would need to be re-drawed, by ethnical groups, divided by the colonial boundaries (As people from the same ethnicity in different ex-colonies speak different languages, and that might lead to conflict in a unitary state (See Belgium about language conflictuality). Well, you get my point about countries which are legitimate or not in my eyes.

And those [snip... hehehe...] east timor, are the best example on how a lesser people's

Just to note that ever since I read "lesser people", I rejoiced at the fact that East-Timor is independent.

will can be bent by several foreign interests. Actually, the invisible hands in east timor affair wasn't any country or humanitarian organization... it was [snip... hehehe...] multinational company that only interested in exploiting oil and gas reserve at the Timor sea. They do the same in Papua (not PNG, correction for you) and Aceh.

However true that may be, the fact is that multinationals don't force an authoritarian Indonesian government to make a refenrendum. Other countries do. That's why you don't see Xanana Gusmão or (Insert random rebel leader here) travelling abroad to meet multinational companies CEO's. They travel to meet world leaders.

Well, if u look at the timor lestenese conitions now, they are more [snip... hehehe...], [snip... hehehe...], and [snip... hehehe...] compared from the times they are still under Indonesian control. Portugal are just try to exploit the chaos in Indonesian government that time, and sadly their [snip... hehehe...] tactics are prevailed...

I'm pretty sure you can say that to the tens of thousands that died during the Indonesian invasion (Which was the classical "We are invading simply because we want to." reason), as well as the tens of thousands of victims of Indonesian repression, as well as to the victims of this incident.

As a matter of fact I have two Timorense college professors here in my college residence, they are here learning Portuguese. Since I enquired into their histories in Timor-occupied, they had to go study to Indonesian colleges (nothing wrong here), and one of them took 10 (!) years to take a simple degree because he got flunked by the professors, who did so because he was a Timorense (As you said, one of those "lesser people"), who apparently according to Indonesian professors didn't deserve a college degree.

EDIT: About Portugal, that's funny. I study International Relations, so I know what I'm talking about. Portugal should recieve the Nobel Prize for Peace. It's not everyday that you see a national boicott of Indonesian products, massive popular demonstrations of support for Timor, and a country which truly acted out of pure kindness to a foreign people in the International Arena.

Well, every country has its own "claimed area" and that will goes almost against any humanitarian principles. But with that, maybe Megas Alexandros will be arrested for Invading Persia, and England should have a heavy sanction for annexing wales and scotlands... well, If a race or Area in your own country try to separate themself (the very same as Rebellions in TW ), did your country only let them go, and not sending armed forces to quell them?

Eng... you should learn from that perspective.... that's all, thank you.

Ok, then I'm pretty sure you view the German invasions throughout Europe, as well as the Japanese invasion of China and Indonesia with good eyes.

[Centurion1]

Alright, I'll play your game, even though it's got nothing to do with my point, which you still haven't figured out, even though others have repeated it multiple times now:

Moldova: Civil conflict, separatist movement.
Vatican City, Andorra, San Marino, Puerto Rica, Barbados, Grenada, St. Lucia, Bahamas, St. Vincent, Palau, Solomon Islands, Micronesia and Marshall Islands: none of these are real countries(and I believe several of them were part of Bush' "coalition of the willing").
Madagascar: Civil conflict, military coup.
Morocco: (Semi)Civil conflict/violent occupation, separatist movement(west sahara).
Qatar and Bahrain: None since the Gulf war.
Armenia: Withdrew from iraq in octobre 2008, still in Kosovo.
Thailand: You've got to be kidding me, they've been at war with insurgents for the last 5 years. Now they've also managed to fight with Cambodia over some temple.

Vatican City, Andorra, San Marino, Puerto Rica, Barbados, Grenada, St. Lucia, Bahamas, St. Vincent, Palau, Solomon Islands, Micronesia and Marshall Islands: none of these are real countries(and I believe several of them were part of Bush' "coalition of the willing").

Just because they are small doesn't mean they are not real countries. and this is a stupid atguement. you can't judge an entire group of people by their government. Otherwise then all Iranians would be raving lunatics, or all Burmans, or all North Koreans (well not sure about that, they did invent brainwashing. Just think about that......

sorry husar

Oh and the fact that Humans even have a concept of peace implies a reluctance to war. We are superior to animals because of our intellect that allows us to make decisions that do not have to be natural.


Oh and jolt do you really think that Wales and Scotland want to leave the Uk. I am sure there are separatists but the Scots aren't exactly laying down blood feuds with every Englishman they ind anymore. What i am trying to say is i think they are rather assimiltaed (but maybe i am wrong, i don't live there.)

no you cant say that America should have been its natural borders because there were Indians there too. Oh and what about Canada. and shouldn't austrailia be given back to the aborigines.... What i say is we stop worrying about the past injustices and start worrying about what is happening NOW. Indians are less than one percent of the American population so that idea is impossible. Plus, Americans have done a lot of good things so stop focusing on all the bad stuff.

[Jolt]

Oh and jolt do you really think that Wales and Scotland want to leave the Uk. I am sure there are separatists but the Scots aren't exactly laying down blood feuds with every Englishman they ind anymore. What i am trying to say is i think they are rather assimiltaed (but maybe i am wrong, i don't live there.)

Fact is that their language and culture still exists. And noone said they want to leave the UK. I am theorizing over which countries are or are not legitimate to me.

no you cant say that America should have been its natural borders because there were Indians there too. Oh and what about Canada. and shouldn't austrailia be given back to the aborigines.... What i say is we stop worrying about the past injustices and start worrying about what is happening NOW. Indians are less than one percent of the American population so that idea is impossible. Plus, Americans have done a lot of good things so stop focusing on all the bad stuff.

By the time the US was formed as a sovereign entity, in the 13th colonies, if there was any sizeable number of indians, I believe, the British colonists far surpassed the number of Indians. That, coupled with this: "History is very important, because it means the cultures are gone and cannot be retrieved and enforced upon the majority of the present population." I wrote in my last post, explains the situation. About Australia, the aborigine culture is also practically extinct. Therefore I can accept Australia as it is. About the bad stuff, I'm not talking about any specific bad stuff. Only explaining why I consider the USA a viable legitimate country. I'm pretty sure Germany did many good things as well, so let's prohibit everyone from talking about WW2, shall we?

[HoreTore]

Oh and jolt do you really think that Wales and Scotland want to leave the Uk.

Uhm................

Yes they do? Haven't been paying much attention to the scottish nationalist issue, have you?

Just because they are small doesn't mean they are not real countries.

Size matters.

[Cute Wolf]

True. At least half of it is. The US shouldn't really exist, or should at the very least be confined to its original boundaries in my opinion. They are a special case, however, given the fact that they have basically wiped out the native ethnicities and their country wasn't made up by an higher and lower peoples (And you said yourself in your post about East Timor), but since that is well in the past, as much as it pains me to nod, I accept their presence as a single sovereign entity. History is very important, because it means the cultures are gone and cannot be retrieved and enforced upon the majority of the present population. Such is the case of the USA, unlike Indonesia.

I would apply such an opinion on a myriad of countries. Spain castillianizes Galicians, Basques and Catalunians, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. England did the same to Welsh and Scottish, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. North Ireland is reportedly mostly inhabitted by Scottish, so a condominium between Scotland and Ireland would be a possible solution, in my point of view. France successfully did it to Occitans, Bretons and Burgundians (History again), therefore I accept that France remains with its current continental boundaries (Corsica shouldn't remain French, however.) India should desintegrate into a myriad of states, as should Pakistan (Baluchistan and Punjab/Khalistan pops up to my mind as the most blatant cases), China should lose most of its external territory (Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia), it should not however, lose for instance Manchuria (Manchu culture), Yunnan (Ancient Di and other non-Han tribes which were assimilated), and finally, Guizhou, Hunan, Jiangxi, Fujian, Guangzhou Huainan and Guangxi, which were territories which originally were home to many non-Han ethnicities, gradually assimilated into the Chinese (Han) ethnicity, recognized by the old Chinese emperors as barbarians. Since this cultures have large and by been absorbed in the course of history, and their distinct culture lost, I can accept that they are legitimatly part of the country they belong to. Africa would be a very special case. Since many people of the same ethnicities have already have seperate histories by being part of different colonies, the whole of Africa would need to be re-drawed, by ethnical groups, divided by the colonial boundaries (As people from the same ethnicity in different ex-colonies speak different languages, and that might lead to conflict in a unitary state (See Belgium about language conflictuality). Well, you get my point about countries which are legitimate or not in my eyes.

Just to note that ever since I read "lesser people", I rejoiced at the fact that East-Timor is independent.

However true that may be, the fact is that multinationals don't force an authoritarian Indonesian government to make a refenrendum. Other countries do. That's why you don't see Xanana Gusmão or (Insert random rebel leader here) travelling abroad to meet multinational companies CEO's. They travel to meet world leaders.

I'm pretty sure you can say that to the tens of thousands that died during the Indonesian invasion (Which was the classical "We are invading simply because we want to." reason), as well as the tens of thousands of victims of Indonesian repression, as well as to the victims of this incident.

Well, history is history, past is the past... no matter how long it is.... "Well, at least I was happy when I become a conscript and sent there to shot some of their heads and torture them... they are simply not humans." is NEVER an argument when some "larger" countries decide to "invade" smaller countries. Providing you play TW games much (afterall this forum is TW....) you know that in the history, IF the "freedom" for all is applied, today's wolrd will become an anarchy ruins of everyday riotting people. As bad or as good as they could be used... Power gives order. Just look at today your "timor leste", as they are become poorer and poorer everyday. And they become further infractioned, as most of their former "allies and friends" become bitter rivals in politics. Everyday, a corpse lied in the roads was common occurence in Timor leste... as much of the people now regrets their separation from Indonesia. Much of their refugees in the East Nusatenggara Province now decide to become Indonesian citizens once again, because they said that living here now..... is hell (Citation: I did have an article to said that, but it was written in Indonesian, and in my newspapper (KOMPAS))

And who says that multinational corporations ain't behind this carnage? just look at who gets the best guards and hire many PMC's in timor leste... Australian, British, and American oil gas and natural resources company. Even they have power to shoot timor leste's police and didn't get any punishment "they just say accident"

As a matter of fact I have two Timorense college professors here in my college residence, they are here learning Portuguese. Since I enquired into their histories in Timor-occupied, they had to go study to Indonesian colleges (nothing wrong here), and one of them took 10 (!) years to take a simple degree because he got flunked by the professors, who did so because he was a Timorense (As you said, one of those "lesser people"), who apparently according to Indonesian professors didn't deserve a college degree.

EDIT: About Portugal, that's funny. I study International Relations, so I know what I'm talking about. Portugal should recieve the Nobel Prize for Peace. It's not everyday that you see a national boicott of Indonesian products, massive popular demonstrations of support for Timor, and a country which truly acted out of pure kindness to a foreign people in the International Arena.

Ok, then I'm pretty sure you view the German invasions throughout Europe, as well as the Japanese invasion of China and Indonesia with good eyes.

Well, I was an assistant professor in my collage, and I was tasked to give some exams and homework on Inorganic chemistry, and I know that several of my fellow assistant friends depiss some junior students because of their religious or racial backgrounds. Pretty much true, some Papuan students got a bad mark they shouldn't get because some "muslim" assistants never give "christians" more than 60% (usually much less). But at least I doing my Job Professionally and give them good marks they deserve (not because they are christian like me, but everyone deserve 90% is got 90% from me). Discrimination exists everywhere! And yes, while some "unproffesional flunkers" lied in university, most of the Lecturers and assistants are good and honest, and never flunk their students or juniors.

Oh, and the bolded sentence means that I dislike that. Initially japanesse said that they want to liberate asian countries from european colonization, and history is history, without that disaster happened, much, I said much, countries in east and southeast asia never had their european influence lessened. Well, the german invasion is a really diffrent case, as the WW2 is more kind of Revenge in Nazi's point of view, but their result is complete fail nonetheless...

And If u play RTW, or EB, or BI... or anything "historical" TW mods... You did learn that "the strong eats the weak" and with that, history is shaped. But respect other's territory, and didn';t meddle in another's "inner problems" was a good start to maintain peaceful relationships. Indonesia is much like US, they are both "De facto and De Jure" country, with certain identity, and pastime "naughty invasions". But the first step towards more friendly relationships is honour each other. Most Indonesians aren't unreasonable flunkers, just ask Obama.... he spent his child time in Jakarta, Indonesia, and he didn't get any discrimination.

[Jolt]

Well, history is history, past is the past... no matter how long it is.... "Well, at least I was happy when I become a conscript and sent there to shot some of their heads and torture them... they are simply not humans." is NEVER an argument when some "larger" countries decide to "invade" smaller countries. Providing you play TW games much (afterall this forum is TW....) you know that in the history, IF the "freedom" for all is applied, today's wolrd will become an anarchy ruins of everyday riotting people.

In ther International Law, like you said, there is a principle which was created in 1648 (!), which is three-fold:

1. The principle of the sovereignty of states and the fundamental right of political self determination
2. The principle of (legal) equality between states
3. The principle of non-intervention of one state in the internal affairs of another state

As such, Indonesia had no right whatsoever to invade Timor-Leste, which was a completely seperate and legitimate sovereign state with no connections to Indonesia. As such, every state is theorically free from one another. And there is freedom for all in many countries. And you don't see them rioting everyday. So long as there is responsible governance by the ruling class (THAT is the problem, not multinational companies), then one can value freedom in a country without riotting.

As bad or as good as they could be used... Power gives order. Just look at today your "timor leste", as they are become poorer and poorer everyday. And they become further infractioned, as most of their former "allies and friends" become bitter rivals in politics. Everyday, a corpse lied in the roads was common occurence in Timor leste... as much of the people now regrets their separation from Indonesia. Much of their refugees in the East Nusatenggara Province now decide to become Indonesian citizens once again, because they said that living here now..... is hell (Citation: I did have an article to said that, but it was written in Indonesian, and in my newspapper (KOMPAS))

Power gives order through oppression and fear. Like in many countries coming out of totalitarian regimes, its people come with a collective state of mind where they want to expel all the rage and anger they stocked up while under the oppressive regime. That is why after most totalitarian regimes, there is always a period of several years of anarchy. Portugal was no exception to this rule. Once East Timor straightens its structural problems usual to a new-born state, it should begin to gain a gigantic influx of wealth through its exports of oil, and that alone can make a substantial of their part of their revenue in the future.

Oh and I know about all that. I know that there are still many Indonesian partizans in Timor, and that these continue to murder and loot and rape until this very day. Some days ago, I just read a news that a pro-Indonesian Timorese group had raped and killed 5 women in the outskirts of Dili. It isn't just the assassinations and agitation to intimidate the population into voting for continued existence inside Indonesia when the referendum happened. No, it continues to this very day.

Another problem is the economic neglect that Timor Leste suffered both during Portuguese administration (Heck, they were a colony, so we were legitimatly exploiting them) and during Indonesian administration (They were supposedly an integral part of your country, yet they were still economically neglected, and if you have a constitution, I'd bet it says somewhere in the first chapters that Indonesia is a unitary state, whose duty is to improve the life of all its citizens. You were definetly not accomplishing that.), which has only increased the problems and workload of the Timorense government today. If you ask me, would I be a citizen of:

a) a country whose citizens willingly call me a "lesser person", where I am educationally discriminated based on my ethnicity and where the lands I lived in were oppressed, subject to constant murders and repression, as well as the general lack of economic advancement
OR
b) a country which is ruled by my own kin, which despite all the gigantic structural problems it faces, actually attempts to improve the social, economic and political life (However difficult that may be) of all Timorense

Which one do you think, I would choose?

And who says that multinational corporations ain't behind this carnage? just look at who gets the best guards and hire many PMC's in timor leste... Australian, British, and American oil gas and natural resources company. Even they have power to shoot timor leste's police and didn't get any punishment "they just say accident"

What do the multinational corporations gain by this? I'm sure they all wanted Indonesia out so they could have a new sovereign body willing to sign contracts with them, but what do they gain with sustaining the anarchy? (You are implying that they take active action in promoting violence and destruction in the country)

Well, I was an assistant professor in my collage, and I was tasked to give some exams and homework on Inorganic chemistry, and I know that several of my fellow assistant friends depiss some junior students because of their religious or racial backgrounds. Pretty much true, some Papuan students got a bad mark they shouldn't get because some "muslim" assistants never give "christians" more than 60% (usually much less). But at least I doing my Job Professionally and give them good marks they deserve (not because they are christian like me, but everyone deserve 90% is got 90% from me). Discrimination exists everywhere! And yes, while some "unproffesional flunkers" lied in university, most of the Lecturers and assistants are good and honest, and never flunk their students or juniors.

Discrimination based on ethnicities? How I pity such people. People who have lives to live and have to get stuck perpetually on an educational system partly based on discrimination people through their religious or ethnical background. See? Primary example why Indonesia is an artificial country.

Oh, and the bolded sentence means that I dislike that. Initially japanesse said that they want to liberate asian countries from european colonization, and history is history, without that disaster happened, much, I said much, countries in east and southeast asia never had their european influence lessened. Well, the german invasion is a really diffrent case, as the WW2 is more kind of Revenge in Nazi's point of view, but their result is complete fail nonetheless...

Made that statement as a response to your sentence "Eng... you should learn from that perspective"

Which basically says, that you support invasions of people the invading powers consider "lesser people" and "Part of their claim area". So Japan considered Indonesia part of their claim area, and according to your hypothesis, they have every single right to invade your country and treat you like cattle.

And If u play RTW, or EB, or BI... or anything "historical" TW mods... You did learn that "the strong eats the weak" and with that, history is shaped. But respect other's territory, and didn';t meddle in another's "inner problems" was a good start to maintain peaceful relationships. Indonesia is much like US, they are both "De facto and De Jure" country, with certain identity, and pastime "naughty invasions". But the first step towards more friendly relationships is honour each other. Most Indonesians aren't unreasonable flunkers, just ask Obama.... he spent his child time in Jakarta, Indonesia, and he didn't get any discrimination.

We have reached a time where the "strong eats the weak" is no longer that linear and when a country is breaking international laws to "eat the weaker", it should not complain if another stronger country comes to eat it (Exactly like Japan did.). The rules are to be followed by everyone. If you break a rule with one country, you are breaking the rules with the entire world.