Mafia Mongolica [Concluded]

[TinCow]

I can tell that ATPG and Beskar have had outofthread communication, but I can't see that 'khaan forbids it as long as there are no quoting of PM's or revealing victory conditions. Mafia or TIN? Hard to tell.

There hasn't been any out of thread communication between me and Pizza either, as I said before this statement, maybe he was just repaying the favour where I helped stop him getting needlessly lynched.

Interesting disparity here. Sigurd, why do you think they've been chatting?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

All right, let's grant the premise that due to their behavioral staticness, both Beskar and Atpg may not have a great case on them. Who should we lynch then?

The other choices seem unsatisfactory to me at least. AVSM forgets to unvote, a very forgivable mistake given that it wasn't really made explicit until now.

YLC is selling his vote. Why should this be considered bad? I consider it good. YLC is making the game more interesting and fun, the real purpose of the game, we shouldn't crucify those who do so. He has not done anything bad, and all his transactions are out in the open. He is an honest businessman as he says, until proven otherwise. For the concerns of power swinging, at the moment, one vote isn't going to do anything anyway.

And DJgingivitis is also not one I'd go after. For all his picking on YLC, I believe his "neutral" comment was misinterpreted. I think gingivitis meant to say that we don't really know YLC's alignment, like we don't [I]really/I] know anyone else's but ours and maybe the killed people.

The way I see it, I'd rather have had Atpg and Beskar lynched the first two rounds, two players with some suspicion their way, than FactionHeir and Beefy which were really nothing more than random lynchings.

Other than the fact Reenk went after both Beskar and I, there are parts of this argument I agree with. YLC completely left himself open to being lynched; he just did not care. I couldn't, as I said, argue with him to get him to change his vote and save himself. FactionHeir was easy, he hadn't even shown up. I requested we get some votes on a different candidate so I could take my vote off of him for that very reason, but due to the bandwagon on me I had no choice in the matter and no one listened. AVSM doesn't push any of my buttons either.

[Reenk Roink]

The answer is obvious, the best alternative is you. You acted scummy since round one.

I was speaking with Tratorix here, if he really thought so then, why did he vote for Beefy? I had two votes on me at that point.

How is that scummy? All I have done is simply point out really weird actions, which I done in every single game, and because I decided to point out Reenk Roink's behaviour, RR just tries to bandwagon me with post-hoc information, where he tries to build an imaginary case up, all because I called him out on his behaviour.

Ok, despite the many times I pointed out my reasons, you continue with this nonsense of a "post-hoc case" hiding a retaliation vote.

A couple of things, you're really not going to get anyone to lynch anyone due to retaliation votes.

Your entire argument of "post hoc" information fails because your accusation against me that I voted against you because you "called me out" is post hoc. Obviously I'm making a case against you because you "called me out". It led me to reread the page once more, where I saw the potential connection. Were I just retaliation voting, Sigurd and White eyes would be on The List.

Remember, RR's vote is because I called him out on being suspicious, and his whole active bandwagon is his paranoia because I called him out.

[Beskar]

Last comment to you.

[Reenk Roink]

Last comment to you.

Beskar is a Smooth Criminal

[gibsonsg91921]

I would note that the writeup mentions "two dedicated guards." I wonder if there are any doctor roles...

[pevergreen]

...coming....for you!

Meehehehahahahaha

[DJGingivitis]

RR, I would like to note that your interpretation of what I said is correct. I meant to say that YLC has an unknown alliance. From a blind perspective it is seen that he is neutral in the fact that the extra vote is up in the air for anyone. However your thought of saying it is for the fun of the game to keep him around makes me nervous. Perhaps you plan on exploiting him to your gain later in the game. I shall wait and see. Until then I do not like him selling his vote so I shall continue to get him lynched unless there is a something blatant.

[gibsonsg91921]

ATPG and Beskar seem shady as . Too bad I'm a lousy player, I'm not going to get killed to prove any points.

[seireikhaan]

General Hankerchief sat in his tent that night, his sword in one hand and a stone in the other. He laid the sword flat. With the other hand, he scraped the sword lengthwise along its curved blade. He continued the process with a steady hand. He didn't care what some said about the process nicking blades; his always cut with a perfect slice following a good sharpening. After exactly one hundred scraped, he flipped the sword, and began to work on the other side. The harsh, shrill scrape rang out through the night. Once, twice, thrice....

A young man was crouching, stalking his way through the camp. His biggest concern was being heard, ordinarily, but something was different this particular night. The loud, metallic sound ringing out from one tent seemed to offer all the audible cover he needed. He stopped outside the tent where the sound originated. He peered inside. The man inside was attempting to sharpen his sword with a rock. Though concentrated on his work, the man did notice his visitor in the periphery of his vision. The young man ceased bothering with subtleties, and simply walked into the tent, in full view. The man in the tent laid down the rock, and held his sword in both hands, a glare of subdued disgust upon his face. His opponent drew his own sword from the scabbard at his waist. The two gave each other the slightest of nods.

GeneralHankerchief took the initiative. He took three, controlled steps forward, bringing his sword over his head with both hands. The intruder raised his sword in response, with one hand. The two swords gave a mighty clang, but both held firm. The intruder moved his right foot forward and dropped his left shoulder. With his left hand free, he delivered a punch to GeneralHankerchief's midsection. GeneralHankerchief wheezed for a second. The man took advantage, shoving forward knocking him to the ground. The man lunged onto him, out of control- the sword, instead of planting in GeneralHankerchief's chest, landed into the left shoulder. GeneralHankerchief bit his tongue attempting to stop the unmanly scream from leaving his mouth. He tried to bring his sword, now in his right hand, back upon this man. However, the man ducked down, burying his face into GeneralHankerchief's chest to avoid it. The man ripped his own sword out, and desperately brought it down upon GeneralHankerchief's bared neck. The long edge of the blade squeezed down on a soft, vulnerable jugular. GeneralHankerchief struggled for a moment, as though he were possessed, but soon lay limp as blood pumped out of the vital artery.




I finally felt a smidgen of pride this morning. I had finally been able to wake myself up at a "proper" time for the savages. I admit, I walked out of the tent with perhaps too much of an air of smugness. For when I departed from my tent to find Shinzei, I was verbally accosted by a small gang of soldiers. They openly declared doubts about my own innocence in the matter of the recent tribe deaths. Naturally, I did my most to dissuade them, but it was not until my guards had arrived that they felt it wise to leave me alone. As I arrive for the council, I was dearly hoping that Shinzei would not allow similar thoughts to wander stray across his mind....



Alive: 20

Askthepizzaguy
A Very Super Market
Beskar
Caius
Chaotix
Death is Yonder
DJGingivtis
Gibsonsg91921
Ichigo
Jolt
Khazaar
Lord Winter
pevergreen
Reenk Roink
Sigurd
Splitpersonality
TinCow
Tratorix
White_eyes:D
YLC

Dead: 3

Yaropolk (N1)
Atheotes (N2)
GeneralHankerchief (N3)

Lynched: 1

FactionHeir (D1)
Beefy (D2)

WoK'd: 0


THIS ROUND WILL LAST 36 HOURS!

[Reenk Roink]

Vote: Beskar obviously

Why kill GH unless the Mafia: 1) is Beskar and wants a guy who keeps voting him off and is not as high profile as me or 2) wants us to think 1.

I still am standing by my Atpg/Beskar theory for now. Of course, I am open to other suggestions as well at this point. I'm kinda getting this second itch that Tratorix might be a guilty one, who probably thinking that Beskar will get the axe soon enough, will try to make me look like a bad guy (as he did last round).

Beskar: 1 (Reenk Roink)

[TinCow]

Stinks of a frame-up to me.

[Beskar]

Stinks of a frame-up to me.

Sorry, I have to agree exactly with TinCow.

If I was going to do what you said, wouldn't have just killed you, Reenk Roink? Far easier and less hassle. Also, being really honest, if I was Mafia, I would have killed you last night and wouldn't have cared if it got me lynched.

It's great that straight away, while I otherwise been at work, you jumped straight away accusing me in the first post, in a big write-up, if anything, you had the whole incident planned out, in order to frame me, then while the town goes off and lynch me, you snigger to yourself going "hehe, so easy to fool the town and lynch Beskar".

Looks like you (or a smart Mafia) obviously set this up to get me killed. But not killing you but some one else close to the mark, the Mafia (or you) hope this draws the town into lynching me, opposed to them (or you).

Vote: Reenk Roink (till something better turns up)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Stinks of a frame-up to me.

Could be a double-bluff. Intentionally kill me off and then scream "Frame!"

Frankly, that and other reasons since Day One all point to Beskar. He has to go, if nothing else to get the town looking elsewhere finally.

[White_eyes:D]

I am tempted to go for Reenk Roink....(I can tell you up to something...)
But it's been a while....and I missed you....

So I Vote:ATPG for killing Beefy the likely Innocent townie

Tally:

1-Askthepizzaguy:(White_eyes:D)
1-Reenk Roink:(Beskar)
1-Beskar:(Reenk Roink)

[TinCow]

Could be a double-bluff. Intentionally kill me off and then scream "Frame!"

Frankly, that and other reasons since Day One all point to Beskar. He has to go, if nothing else to get the town looking elsewhere finally.

Yes, it's very possible. In my original post, I actually laid out an argument against Reenk and cast a vote for him, but then thought better of it and erased it. I'm currently thinking we're focused too much on a very small number of people. The Beskar issue does not seem likely to drop anytime soon, so perhaps its best just to lynch him so that the discussion can move on to other directions. I'll see how the day goes before casting my vote.

[White_eyes:D]

Could be a double-bluff. Intentionally kill me off and then scream "Frame!"

Yeah, I recall using that in a few games...Good times (How did I get away with it back then??) I have a bad feeling about Reenk.....but he could be just trying harder...last game he and Khaan blamed me endless from the grave....

[Beskar]

The Very Shortened version of post:
While Reenk Roink's vote suggestion this round was far more decent, abeit, very misguided, please vote for reasons similar or superior. I will honesty say now, voting for me "to let the discussion move on" will annoy me, because it is not my fault some one got hooked voting for me, because I called them out on scummy behaviour.

[Reenk Roink]

Yes, it's very possible. In my original post, I actually laid out an argument against Reenk and cast a vote for him, but then thought better of it and erased it. I'm currently thinking we're focused too much on a very small number of people. The Beskar issue does not seem likely to drop anytime soon, so perhaps its best just to lynch him so that the discussion can move on to other directions. I'll see how the day goes before casting my vote.

Let's see it?

To be honest I'm not sure what to make of you TinCow. Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point? After all, at this point, there is very little to go on, spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets. This is not to say that we should focus on Atpg/Beskar exclusively, no no no. I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake. If anyone has a theory, please speak up.

So if you had made a case against me, I would like to see it. Put your money where your mouth is and give us more targets. I do hope it will be better than your argument against YLC...

Yeah, I recall using that in a few games...Good times (How did I get away with it back then??) I have a bad feeling about Reenk.....but he could be just trying harder...last game he and Khaan blamed me endless from the grave....

I am "trying harder" in the sense that I'm trying to do the basic analytical style of play. Yes, I know I've heavily criticized it before, but I don't think it is completely devoid of worth, far from it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Khazaar

[gibsonsg91921]

Vote: ATPG

He does not bode well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: ATPG

He does not bode well.

Good sir, I can bode with the best of them. You'd actually be impressed by my technique.

[pevergreen]

Good sir, I can bode with the best of them. You'd actually be impressed by my technique.

Nice.

Vote: Beskar

I side with my brother.

[TinCow]

Let's see it?

To be honest I'm not sure what to make of you TinCow. Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point? After all, at this point, there is very little to go on, spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets. This is not to say that we should focus on Atpg/Beskar exclusively, no no no. I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake. If anyone has a theory, please speak up.

Are you kidding me? Let me re-quote you to see if I've got this right...

Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point?... spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets.

Followed by...

I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake.

Nicely done. Way to cover both sides of the argument with the thinnest possible plausible explanation to keep it from being totally absurd. You seem to be claiming there's a great deal of evidence against Beskar, and I call foul on that. What did he do, vote in a manner that saved ATPG? I did the same thing, yet you ignored me. Your evidence against Beskar is wafer thin, yet you keep pumping it every round. GH's death does point the finger at him, but that's the ultimate WIFOM and you know it. You're being incredibly focused on Beskar, and that doesn't seem like you at all from my limited experience. I've never seen you go after someone with this level of tenacity, and you are doing so in a situation with evidence that is equivocal at best.

At this point, it is YOU that is acting abnormally.

So if you had made a case against me, I would like to see it. Put your money where your mouth is and give us more targets.

A bit defensive are we? I originally erased my argument against you because I didn't think it was very strong. Your response is making me reconsider that position.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Perhaps he is just attempting a new style.

Can anyone remember that I used to have a slightly different play style? I was slightly more verbose.

[Tratorix]

I still am standing by my Atpg/Beskar theory for now. Of course, I am open to other suggestions as well at this point. I'm kinda getting this second itch that Tratorix might be a guilty one, who probably thinking that Beskar will get the axe soon enough, will try to make me look like a bad guy (as he did last round).

Why good sir, you must be some sort of prophet!

So, let me get this straight. Your list of suspects includes:

1) Beskar.
2) Anyone who defends Beskar.
3) Anyone who says you might not be entirely trustworthy.

All this comes from what is, basically, a gut feeling on your part. Sorry, but you strike me as mafia trying really hard to rationalize your voting. Vote: ReenkRoink

[Splitpersonality]

Vote: Reenkroink

[Reenk Roink]

Are you kidding me? Let me re-quote you to see if I've got this right...

Followed by...

Nicely done. Way to cover both sides of the argument with the thinnest possible plausible explanation to keep it from being totally absurd.

Things aren't as black or white as you make them out to be.

You may wish to try and portray my statements as self contradictory or close to it to avoid actually addressing them but I won't allow it.

Can you explain why we should focus on a broader target group at this point?

So then, I asked you to explain WHY we should focus on a broader group. This should have been interpreted as a request for an explanation for a stance you proposed. Care to indulge me?

spreading the vote thin will make it easier for the bad guys as their vote can count more and they can also hide behind various targets.

This here is me pointing out what I see as a major drawback in doing what you propound.

I certainly welcome a broadening of the targets, though not for its own sake.

Here is me offering my opinion on your proposal. I state that I would welcome it (is this not consistent with my previous requests from others to give alternatives?) but it is qualified with a condition that it is not to be done for it's own sake.

For that major problem that it has, broadening the targets does also allow us to progress in some ways.

I understand this is Mafia, and people aren't exactly going to be crafting charitable construals of other people's post, but let's not get carried away and build strawmen TinCow. At least don't make them so blatant to be easily called out...

You seem to be claiming there's a great deal of evidence against Beskar,

Your most blatantly false assertion.

1
2
3

These posts all point out the tentative nature of my argument. I have made it clear that I am driven more by pragmatic concerns (there is nobody better to vote for) than epistemic concerns. I have never tried to obfuscate the epistemic lacking that my case had.

and I call foul on that. What did he do, vote in a manner that saved ATPG? I did the same thing, yet you ignored me.

Already explained. You did not have previous connection with Beskar? The thing that got to me is that after Beskar

Also, in the second round, you stayed aloof from the whole matter with your vote. Atpg jumped on GH for voting Beskar.

Your evidence against Beskar is wafer thin, yet you keep pumping it every round. GH's death does point the finger at him, but that's the ultimate WIFOM and you know it.

I disagree with the assertion that my evidence is wafer thin. Speaking within the context of Mafia games and Mafia cases, I consider it an average case. It points out linked voting and posting and is slightly reinforced by a kill.

If you still disagree, please bring examples of paradigmatic Mafia cases and point out the ways mine is lacking as compared to them.

I consider WIFOM to be a useless construct. It does not add anything to the discussion, as every action can be reinterpreted through its lens.

You're being incredibly focused on Beskar, and that doesn't seem like you at all from my limited experience. I've never seen you go after someone with this level of tenacity, and you are doing so in a situation with evidence that is equivocal at best.

At this point, it is YOU that is acting abnormally.

Of course I am. So?

Now then, are you so entrenched in the dogmatic assumption of "behavior change = scum" that this statement is supposed to imply that I am scummy?

You do know how much I detest the equivocation of behavioral change to scumminess right? Would you wish for me to argue against it (rather I will repost my many tirades)?

A bit defensive are we? I originally erased my argument against you because I didn't think it was very strong. Your response is making me reconsider that position.

First, how can this be interpreted as defensive whatsoever? Second please do.

[Askthepizzaguy]

unvote, vote: splitpersonality

You seem to be intentionally ducking attention.

[Reenk Roink]

Why good sir, you must be some sort of prophet!

So, let me get this straight. Your list of suspects includes:

1) Beskar.
2) Anyone who defends Beskar.
3) Anyone who says you might not be entirely trustworthy.

All this comes from what is, basically, a gut feeling on your part. Sorry, but you strike me as mafia trying really hard to rationalize your voting. Vote: ReenkRoink

I love this.

After not at all responding to this post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How are they suspicious? All I've seen from you on this is the fact that ATPG voted for someone other than Beskar and Micheal Jackson lyrics. Honestly lynching Beskar because there are "no better choices" is unsatisfactory in itself, but wanting to lynch ATPG because he voted to save someone you want to lynch because you can't find anyone better? Strikes me as lazy at best and scummy at worst.

You haven't been looking too hard then. Atpg before saving Beskar this round twice went after GH for voting Beskar. One with some joke post I think, and the other with a vote without any reason. There's clearly a connection between the two. You're simply being reactive to someone trying to be proactive...

These have been pointed out before by me. You're falling into the same scheme of simply saying "Oh Reenk is just posting Michael Jackson lyrics" when that's clearly not true. Lazy at best, scummy at worst... Disagree with the case given. Don't try to pretend there isn't one.

Lastly, I've asked you for any suggestions on whom to lynch. Your vote against Beefy seems to contradict everything you've been saying here, so I'm not sure. Given your involvement in the game, the fact that you are simply OK with criticizing any attempt at Beskar and Atpg while not promoting any other alternative is odd...

You now go ahead and once again try to make ME look like the bad guy. Come on now, at least TRY and explain the disconnect between your posts and your actions. You really are looking like a Mafia who is just trying to get as many lynch baits as possible. You certainly are the one I will be going after should the Atpg/Beskar case be incorrect.

There is a reason why, for example, I am not suspicious at the moment of TinCow or DJgingivitis, who have both said I "might not be entirely trustworthy" but I am suspicious of you.

*obviously your purported list of my suspects is then wrong on 3 (also partly wrong on 2 but I won't emphasize it too much).

YLC, please vote Beskar (we had the two for one deal).