The misunderstanding of religion

[Marshal Murat]

"I can see it now, a French Catholic returns home, excited because the local priest said that a wife is to be obedient to her husband, and that the husband should feel free to punish her as he sees fit."

It sounds more like a man who enjoys domestic abuse and only looking for an excuse to do so. How about in the Ming Dynasty when the parents could bind the feet of their daughters with impunity? That sounds like domestic violence to me, sanctioned but not influenced by Christianity at all.

[Centurion1]

Your examples sounds alot like what would happen if a Muslim woman showed her face in public in the middle ages Horetore. That of course is ok, right.

[HoreTore]

Also, I'd like to see you cite teaching that says the husband can, "punish her as he sees fit", generally the clergy were more interested in limiting domestic violence; even if you don't think those limitations went far enough.

1. Where did I say that there was any kind of justification in the religion itself? Where in the rules of Football does it say that having your team lose means you get to beat your wife?
2. Football is heavily involved in reducing violence, crime, hatred, racism, etc. Anywhere, at anytime. That's part of what you learn when you play football; you learn that you have to interact with others to reach a goal. You learn to do your part to reach it. You experience a sense of belonging to something greater than yourself, something most of those who turn to crime doesn't have.

It sounds more like a man who enjoys domestic abuse and only looking for an excuse to do so. How about in the Ming Dynasty when the parents could bind the feet of their daughters with impunity? That sounds like domestic violence to me, sanctioned but not influenced by Christianity at all.

1. Like someone who beats his wife because his footy team lost isn't a man who enjoys beating his wife.
2. Since when did I claim domestic violence was caused by christianity, or had anything to do with christianity? Try reading my reply again, it was a response to the, in my opinion, ridiculous claim that football causes domestic violence. If you accept that football causes domestic violence, then by god, you'd better accept that christianity causes domestic violence. I don't accept either, though.

Your examples sounds alot like what would happen if a Muslim woman showed her face in public in the middle ages Horetore. That of course is ok, right.

By the heavens, is this "Christian Sensitivity Day", or what?

While it's usually acceptable to read between the lines, reading outside the page usually isn't a good idea.

[Marshal Murat]

Oh, and Rhyfelwyr, perhaps you should keep christianity's track record on domestic violence in mind when making such statements

How else is one supposed to interpret this statement?

[HoreTore]

How else is one supposed to interpret this statement?

Uhm....

How 'bout "the correct way"? Or even better, why not try simply reading it, instead of trying to interpret it to death?

It certainly should not be interpreted as "Christianity (alone) is the cause of all domestic violence". How you people managed to get that from it is beyond me, really.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uhm....

How 'bout "the correct way"? Or even better, why not try simply reading it, instead of trying to interpret it to death?

It certainly should not be interpreted as "Christianity (alone) is the cause of all domestic violence". How you people managed to get that from it is beyond me, really.

It's pretty clearly aimed at insinuating Christianity causes violence, given that Rhy and I were explicitely saying Football does. As to crime, racism etc. Football worsens those, especially when national teams are involved.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't take my word for it, here are some figures, an 88% rise is pretty significant.

[HoreTore]

It's pretty clearly aimed at insinuating Christianity causes violence, given that Rhy and I were explicitely saying Football does.

Pure nonsense.

It was aimed at ridiculing your claim that football causes domestic violence. I was reminding Rhy that the case against christianity would be as good as the case against football - but then again, I don't believe that football causes violence. And I don't believe that christianity itself causes violence. Idiots watching football? Sure, they can get violent. Idiots preaching at a church? Sure, they can encourage violence. None of them represent the mainstream of either.

As to crime, racism etc. Football worsens those, especially when national teams are involved.

Nonsense again. Football is more than the elites. Football is about the millions of children who play the game. Those you see on the telly is just a tiny bit of what football is about. Football worsens racism and causes violence? No. Some supporters show obvious racism and get violent when watching football. But those are people who already are racist and violent, they would've caused the same trouble with or without football. They use a football match as their excuse to get violent - if not for football, they would've found another excuse.

And again, that's a tiny tiny part of what football is about. For the majority of football players, the millions of children, football represent teamwork, joy, tolerance, a feeling that they're mastering something... I could go on for pages.

Take Norway Cup. I remember my last year in that cup, in the last game we were knocked out by a side from Ghana. We were soundly thrashed, it's the only time I've actually been dizzy after trying to stop a striker... You think anyone on my team thought of africans as sub-humans or whatever after that experience? No, we gained a respect for them. An immense respect.


And if you find a Norwegian who doesn't want Carew on the national side because he's black, or a swede who doesn't want Ibrahimovic because he's muslim.... Well, then you've probably found yourself one of the world's most hardened racists.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think what you say there is generally true HoreTore, but don't you think that the sporting events themselves do provide an outlet for the thugs?

And if you find a Norwegian who doesn't want Carew on the national side because he's black, or a swede who doesn't want Ibrahimovic because he's muslim.... Well, then you've probably found yourself one of the world's most hardened racists.

Kind of off topic, but isn't the whole idea of national football teams racist? IIRC, one of the football bodies defined racism as discrimination based on ethnicity or nationality (after some Old Firm controversy, surprise, surprise). So if only Scots can play for Scotland, Nigerians for Nigeria, Mexicans for Mexico etc...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Clearly, you know nothing about British Football, "A Gentleman's game played by thugs".

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since HoreTore is continuing in his beliefs despite the given statistical data which should lead him to believe otherwise, I can only presume HoreTore's beliefs are founded upon blind faith, why argue with him?

[Centurion1]

^ Ah, and the pure futility of even arguing in the backroom is revelaed. NO ONE changes their minds.

[miotas]

Maybe low scores and no on-field violence are the cause of your trouble, maybe the fans feel the need to make up for there being no action during the game.(sorry couldn't help myself)

Seriously though, I don't know if it's the nature of the sports we predominately play (cricket, NRL, AFL) or if we are just more relaxed here, but the kind of game related violence you guys are describing just doesn't really happen here. Like I mentioned earlier, 2 people following opposing teams can sit down together and have a few drinks while whatching their teams thrash each other, and if your team so happens to lose, it is a given that the other bloke has bragging rights and will give you plenty of about it, but you take it on the chin since you get to do the same next time his team loses. Hitting someone because your team lost just isn't cricket.

[Banquo's Ghost]

^ Ah, and the pure futility of even arguing in the backroom is revelaed. NO ONE changes their minds.

You just haven't been around long enough. Granted, it's rare, but people do adjust their positions and sometimes even admit to it.

The quality of the debate and the experience and wisdom of members is marvellous. One learns something everyday.

[HoreTore]

I think what you say there is generally true HoreTore, but don't you think that the sporting events themselves do provide an outlet for the thugs?

Do you think that certain ministers provide an outlet for the thugs?

Kind of off topic, but isn't the whole idea of national football teams racist? IIRC, one of the football bodies defined racism as discrimination based on ethnicity or nationality (after some Old Firm controversy, surprise, surprise). So if only Scots can play for Scotland, Nigerians for Nigeria, Mexicans for Mexico etc...

Nonsense. As evidence to the contrary, I present the aforementioned Carew and Ibrahimovic.

Also, it's just not true that "only scots can play for scotland". Anyone without international apps for another national side can play for scotland.

Clearly, you know nothing about British Football, "A Gentleman's game played by thugs".

Again you fail miserably to read my post.

Football isn't about the premier league sides. Football is about the 9-year old.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Again you fail miserably to read my post.

Football isn't about the premier league sides. Football is about the 9-year old.

All the nine year-olds want to be Beckham when they grow up, or a Firm Hooligan; depending on Dad. Or, they just grow up with emotional problems because their masculinity is all tied up in a pathetic football team.

So, it's about both because you can't have one without the other.

[HoreTore]

All the nine year-olds want to be Beckham when they grow up, or a Firm Hooligan; depending on Dad. Or, they just grow up with emotional problems because their masculinity is all tied up in a pathetic football team.

Rubbish.

But hey, I suppose them computers are a healthy activity too... Let's save those kids from sports! Let them sit on their bottoms by themselves all day! Yes, that's so much better than a youth spent on silly things like physical activity and social interaction!

[The Stranger]

All the nine year-olds want to be Beckham when they grow up, or a Firm Hooligan; depending on Dad. Or, they just grow up with emotional problems because their masculinity is all tied up in a pathetic football team.

So, it's about both because you can't have one without the other.

And all the girls want to be britney spears... and all the other guys want to be like 50 cent, so music also corrupts the youth. and children play GTA4 will wanna grow up and become gangbangers... so ban pcgames. And than there is the odd case that wants to grow up and become like bush or clinton or obama... so ban presidents too. this argument is getting old... everything you do affects/corrupts you in some way or another. its entirely up to the person the way he reacts to it.

I've played football all my life, its a great way to meet people and make friends. you are busy being healthy and you learn a lot of valuable skills. my team was fairly "racially" mixed and I also learned cultural differences and similarities and to respect them.

there are always reasons for a child to be unhappy... but i think more children grow up with emotional problems because they were bullied at school than because their masculinity was tied up in football. But to say that school inspires racism and violence?

[Husar]

But hey, I suppose them computers are a healthy activity too... Let's save those kids from sports! Let them sit on their bottoms by themselves all day! Yes, that's so much better than a youth spent on silly things like physical activity and social interaction!

Rubbish.

The only thing I got out of playing football with the other kids was social discrimination, football makes people become bullies and all other sorts of ugly things. How exactly this is healthy by the amount of knee/leg operations some of them go through is a mystery to me.
Oh and since when are computers the only alternative to football?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Do you think that certain ministers provide an outlet for the thugs?

They probably have protected them at times when they knew bad things were going on. What's with the random diversion though, I though we were talking about football?

Nonsense. As evidence to the contrary, I present the aforementioned Carew and Ibrahimovic.

Also, it's just not true that "only scots can play for scotland". Anyone without international apps for another national side can play for scotland.

O RLY? In that case I'll sign for San Marino, I reckon I could make their team and I get to play against the top guys in the world...

Football isn't about the premier league sides. Football is about the 9-year old.

Football is about the premier league sides. It's also about the championship sides, the coca-cola league sides, the conference sides, the amateur sides, the sunday league sides, and the childrens teams.

Anyway, I'm not meaning to argue that football is bad, since I like football, it's my favourite sport and I played it up until I was maybe 15 or so, and I still go to watch my local team every week. But it is silly how this argument is getting so polarised, football can bring good and bad sides, OK?

[HoreTore]

O RLY? In that case I'll sign for San Marino, I reckon I could make their team and I get to play against the top guys in the world...

No problemo. Just gain citizenship, and if you don't have international games for another side, you're free to play for San Marino. Where you're born is irrelevant to which national side you play for. What matters is your citizenship. Hence why Patrick Vieira could play for France, even though he's from Senegal.

Anyway, I'm not meaning to argue that football is bad, since I like football, it's my favourite sport and I played it up until I was maybe 15 or so, and I still go to watch my local team every week. But it is silly how this argument is getting so polarised, football can bring good and bad sides, OK?

YES!

Have I ever said anything else? Like you have argued that religion has positive effects, I have argued that football has positive effects. Because you linked football with domestic violence, I linked christianity with domestic violence. Tit for tat.

[Husar]

Tit for tat.

AKA revenge, and since when is that a good thing?

[HoreTore]

AKA revenge, and since when is that a good thing?

You're German, Husar, I understand why you wouldn't want people to take revenge for what germany has done in the past....

[Viking]

I'm not sure if that something anyone would consider anyway, remembering what happened after Versailles..

[Rhyfelwyr]

No problemo. Just gain citizenship, and if you don't have international games for another side, you're free to play for San Marino. Where you're born is irrelevant to which national side you play for. What matters is your citizenship. Hence why Patrick Vieira could play for France, even though he's from Senegal.

It's not that simple, Viera, Henry etc only got to play for France due to Senegal being a former colony, otherwise they wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Hey, will you be decked in the national colours next Wednesday with a flag on your wall like a good fan/nationalist? We're gonna get revenge after that donkey Iwelumo let you off the hook last time...

YES!

Have I ever said anything else? Like you have argued that religion has positive effects, I have argued that football has positive effects. Because you linked football with domestic violence, I linked christianity with domestic violence. Tit for tat.

Bah! Some people were suggesting that sport is all good and always works to bring people together, I simply said that that is not always the case. And then you brought up Christianity!

[HoreTore]

It's not that simple, Viera, Henry etc only got to play for France due to Senegal being a former colony, otherwise they wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Henry was born outside Paris.

And yes, it is that simple. Get citizenship, and you can play for the national team. The reason it rarely happens, is because good players usually get their national debut before they've played 3-5 years in a foreign league... But we(as in Norway) are always trying to convince the foreign goalies to switch nationality to play for our national team, as our own goalies are.... well, I'm trying to avoid warning points, so.... And we also tried it with Alanzinho before he was sold off to turkey.

For more examples, I give you:
- Mikkel Diskerud, from Oslo, declared for the US
- Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose, from Poland, playing for Germany
- Eduardo da Silva, born in Rio, playing for Croatia

Hey, will you be decked in the national colours next Wednesday with a flag on your wall like a good fan/nationalist? We're gonna get revenge after that donkey Iwelumo let you off the hook last time...

Not in a million years.

My shirt remains brown.

Bah! Some people were suggesting that sport is all good and always works to bring people together, I simply said that that is not always the case. And then you brought up Christianity!

Bah! I never read threads before barging in! All I saw was you accusing football of domestic violence in a thread on religion!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Henry was born outside Paris.

And yes, it is that simple. Get citizenship, and you can play for the national team. The reason it rarely happens, is because good players usually get their national debut before they've played 3-5 years in a foreign league... But we(as in Norway) are always trying to convince the foreign goalies to switch nationality to play for our national team, as our own goalies are.... well, I'm trying to avoid warning points, so.... And we also tried it with Alanzinho before he was sold off to turkey.

For more examples, I give you:
- Mikkel Diskerud, from Oslo, declared for the US
- Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose, from Poland, playing for Germany
- Eduardo da Silva, born in Rio, playing for Croatia

True, but this recent phenomenon is the sort of thing that makes national football teams a bit redundant. If it's just going to turn into another club scene where you can sign who you want, then what's the point?

Bah! I never read threads before barging in! All I saw was you accusing football of domestic violence in a thread on religion!

Maybe we could just compromise and blame everything on the Church of Rome?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[rvg]

Maybe we could just compromise and blame everything on the Church of Rome?

Careful now. Having a sense of humor is strongly discouraged here.

[The Stranger]

It's not that simple, Viera, Henry etc only got to play for France due to Senegal being a former colony, otherwise they wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Hey, will you be decked in the national colours next Wednesday with a flag on your wall like a good fan/nationalist? We're gonna get revenge after that donkey Iwelumo let you off the hook last time...

Bah! Some people were suggesting that sport is all good and always works to bring people together, I simply said that that is not always the case. And then you brought up Christianity!

not exactly becayse Afellay and Aisatti (both of full maroccan decent, however born and raised in holland) can play international apps for holland as long as they havent played any other int. caps for another country's first team. and afaik marocco has never been a dutch colony or anything like it.

[LittleGrizzly]

All that is required to play for a national team is a grandparent who was a citizen or spending three years inside the country...

Move to San Marino and you could be in the national team within a matter of years... aslong as your half decent (I assume there are plenty of San Marinians who also love football and would like to play in the national side)

Militant Athiests are probably one of my biggest hates... i don't even nessecarily disagree with alot of the stuff they say but when will these idiots learn that attacking something usually strengthens people behind it (unless its a fatal blow) take Ryfelwyr's story as an example.. the attacks made his belief stronger...

I think the world would be better off without religion on the whole... but then i also think the world would probably be as equally well off if there were only the more moderate religious left (moderate in terms of views rather than zeal, see fanatical muslim jihadists or fred phelps as examples of what i mean as non moderate)

Its another thing to divide us...