Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Why on earth would that change anything at all? You think this is just some crusade on "the poor christians"...?
Vegans starving their kid, christians killing it by not taking it to a hospital, I don't care. I doesn't matter what your beliefs are, if they caused the death of your kid, then you're a murderer in my opinion.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-09-2009 at 14:38.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
If it was something incurable like some form of cancer, then it would be a different story since we know of nothing that can save them, so try anything in the hopes that it may work, but when we are talking ******* diabetes then it is an entirely different matter.
- Four Horsemen of the Presence
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
This kid would never have died if she was taken to a hospital; diabetes is easily treatable.
Anyway, I don't understand your question. Do you believe that because doctors occasionally makes mistakes and those mistakes result in deaths, that doctors are unimportant and we should throw away modern medicine...?
Find some statistics on life expectancy during the times of "pray the ill away" and compare them with those we have now.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-10-2009 at 00:17.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
- Proud Horseman of the Presence
Stop with the backhanders, if you please.
Anyway, yes, Belmont is a factory that produces little Christian soldiers and their timid little wives. Their chief "elder" gave the "talk" (he refused to call it a sermon) at th3e Ecumunical service at the Cathedral.
It produced angry muttering from everyone else.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Nope. Doctors are the best we've got. Nothing else comes even remotely close in terms of success, and it's certainly better than any make-believe stuff, like "applejuice is all mah baby needs!!". They don't succeed all the time, but it's the most we can do.
I have little time for fables.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
You said "Paradigm". There are about a billion things named "Paradigm" in the world, and yes, it's also another word for "fable".
Anyway, I really don't care. I know you're just trying to be clever, but that's the very thing making me very uninterested.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-11-2009 at 04:56.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Well I'm not trying to be clever, and you obviously do care because you're in the thread.
Look at it this way, modern Medicine is the current Paradigm, 500 years ago the Paradigm was the diametric opposite. So, should they have sent people to gaol for using anasethic back then?
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
That's exactly what they said 500 years ago as well. They executed people for using anasthetic back then, by the way.
My point is this, people should not be punished for holding a belief and then acting upon it, so long as they act in good faith. Clearly, these parents were responsible for the welfare of their child and they failed specacularly. However, punishing them for doing what they believed to be right is pointless, and therefore clruel and vindictive.
They need to be educated and there's precious little education to be had in prison.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Who cares what they said 500 years ago? People were ignored SoB's back then, who gives awhat they were thinking? The bottom line remains the same; doctors save people. Priests bury them.
Viking put it brilliantly.
And yes, I do believe that these people belong in jail, for all the reasons we normally put people in jail for. First off, they killed their child. It didn't "die", it was murdered. Secondly, we as a society needs to give out the message that "No, killing off your child because of your backwater beliefs are NOT ok!". We need to make sure that this will never, ever happen again. Every lunatic parent out there should be forced to realize that they are responsible for any offspring in their care, and that refusal to seek medical care will be met with consequences.
This isn't about these two idiots. This is about the innocent children unlucky enough to be bred by such people. They need protection from parents like these, just like they need protection from parents who beat them every time they come home from the pub.
This is torture of innocent children. And there's simply no excuse for it.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
They were very clever 500 years ago, they made the best decisions based on the available evidence. The point is very imprtant, because in 500 years someone may try to call you a "ingored SoB". Take a moment to consider this.
Maybe you don't have the concept of mens rea in Norway? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea Thankfully we have it in England and the US. Murder requires a very specific mens rea, unless you can demonstrate that it's just manslaughter.Viking put it brilliantly.
And yes, I do believe that these people belong in jail, for all the reasons we normally put people in jail for. First off, they killed their child. It didn't "die", it was murdered. Secondly, we as a society needs to give out the message that "No, killing off your child because of your backwater beliefs are NOT ok!". We need to make sure that this will never, ever happen again. Every lunatic parent out there should be forced to realize that they are responsible for any offspring in their care, and that refusal to seek medical care will be met with consequences.
This isn't about these two idiots. This is about the innocent children unlucky enough to be bred by such people. They need protection from parents like these, just like they need protection from parents who beat them every time they come home from the pub.
This is torture of innocent children. And there's simply no excuse for it.
Stop trying to cloud the issue with emotive language.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
An ignorant SoB? Of course I will be that, why on earth shouldn't I? Unless the world suddenly starts going backwards, people in the future will know a lot more than we do now, and yes, we'll be ignorant SoB's. And no, they weren't basing their decisions based on the best available evidence. They were disregarding a lot of proven science back then because of the ignorant to smart people ratio. But some people were fortunate enough to be able to utilize the discoveries science had given, and guess what? They fared a lot better.
Just like this kid would've survived easily if it wasn't for all the ignorant SoB's that killed her.
But I highly doubt that prayer will ever take the place of science. So I don't really see the relevance here. Sorry.
Since when have I ever cared about silly law concepts? And bah, "manslaughter" is just another way of saying you killed someone, which was my point.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Bah.
My point is very simple; doctors work, praying don't. Children needs to be protected from parents who try to kill them, and when it happens, like in this case, it must be met with real consequences. Like 10 years in prison.
Like we do when you kill someone who isn't your child. That someone believes that you should get a lower sentence because it was your own child you killed is beyond me. Also, we're only having this discussion in the first place because we're talking about christians, not muslims/vegans/whatever, if it was muslims/vegans/whatever then you two would've already brought out the gallows.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-12-2009 at 03:16.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
They should get done with charges of neglect and possible other things, but it isn't murder. They did try to heal their child afterall, however mis-informed it was.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
The parents didn't try to kill them, hence the mens rea being important. This isn't the same as, say, an honour killing. Intent is important in a court of law.
These individuals were following principles which were theologically incorrect, as I believe has been stated already. It isn't that praying doesn't work, it's that God has already provided them with the tools for their child to be healthy and the parents chose to ignore them.
Nope.Also, we're only having this discussion in the first place because we're talking about christians, not muslims/vegans/whatever, if it was muslims/vegans/whatever then you two would've already brought out the gallows.
Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 11-12-2009 at 09:30.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Aren't the people surviving diabetes good enough evidence? Are their survival a mere illusion?
They must have known very well that there was a great possibility that a simple medical treatment was all that would've been needed to make their child healthy. This makes a mind as guilty and irresponsible as you can have it.
When you take completely unnecessary risks with other persons life, it is murder if they die. If they so desperatly needed to, they could have waited with applying their mumbo jumbo after a visit to the doctor, in case it turned out there was no simple cure.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
Indeed it is! If your actions can result in death, it's murder no matter if you intended it or not. For example, you might hit someone just to hit him, but if that person dies because of the punch(which is quite possible), then it's murder, because you must've known that was an extreme consequence of your action.
Same applies here. Murder.
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-12-2009 at 14:15.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
That's not the point, the point is intent.
Voluntary manslaughter at best, not murder. Murder requires the intent to kill. In English Law Lit., "the killing of another with malice of forethought".They must have known very well that there was a great possibility that a simple medical treatment was all that would've been needed to make their child healthy. This makes a mind as guilty and irresponsible as you can have it.
When you take completely unnecessary risks with other persons life, it is murder if they die. If they so desperatly needed to, they could have waited with applying their mumbo jumbo after a visit to the doctor, in case it turned out there was no simple cure.
Here there was no intent to kill, ergo no "murder". That doesn't mean there was no homicide.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
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