Arverni Campaign

[Commander]

Hi everyone, I'm new around here, as you probably noticed.

First of all, I have to say that I really love this mod. I just donwloaded it like a week days ago and I'm already completley hooked up with it (although I had an exam this last Saturday, so I couldn't play too much), I must congratulate you, because you have done a great job with it.

That being said, I've got some questions for you.

I've just started an Arverni campaign... and I've found myself in a very difficult situation. First of all, the economy. The Arverni start with just 5000 mnai, and with a HUGE debt, and not good possibilites of recover, at least in the beginning.
I can't disband my units because of the Aedui, they're always attacking, with more and more armies. I defeat them all, and always, but I have to keep a good garrison in each of my cities, because if don't do it, they'll fall.
That leaves me no chance of a big army to attack the Aedui, or to just take some Eleutheroi settlements, which BTW, have fine garrisons, that can not be just killed with a FM and 3 or 4 units, you need at least medium size armies.

Now I have -37.000 mnai, and counting. I win victory after victory against the Aedui, but they just keep coming. I've sent diplomatics to every other faction (well, almost every faction), and got the trade rights, still I lose mnai every turn (The first turn was like -11.000 mnai, then less each turn)

I control 4 Settlements. The 3 starter ones, and the one which is just south of the starting location of the Arverni's Faction Leader (don't remember the name of the settlement). I took that settlement from the Eleutheroi, but I don't have a big army, just the starter units, and as I said, I have to distribute them among the settlements.

I really don't know what else to do.
Any thoughts? Advices? Maybe starting all over? It's just 268 BCE, if I remember correctly, or maybe one or two years later, but I just started.

Thanks in advance to everyone

[Knight of Heaven]

Well most factions are like that at the beginning, but in this case, you should use your army since the beginning to conquer another setlements, if you wait to recover you are doomed, just like now. It will take a long time to recuperate, if you dont conquer a setlement and enslave it. i would recomend to start a new campaing. Becouse of the army upkeep, you should atack with your armies, or if you wait, you will be in debt. anyway i think tehre is some guides in this forum.

[anubis88]

Well the Arverni are quite easy to play, if you don't care about leaving the Aedui to survive.
If you want, you can easily destroy the Aedui in Transalpine Gaul. Just attack them the first turn, take Bibracte, and after that Cenabum. Then you can disband most of your army and eventually (very soon) you will be able to have a lot of money.

Also, the cavalry is very expansive, so try to disband them the moment you don't need them

[WinsingtonIII]

I think that taking that settlement from the Eleutheroi was bit of a mistake. At the beginning of either an Aedui or Arverni campaign, your first priority should be to wipe out the opposing Gallic faction, and then only start taking Eleutheroi settlements after that threat is gone. I've personally found that the Aedui have it easier, because the Arverni are centralized and thus easier to destroy. But as the Arverni you can use your greater centralization to your own benefit. Move quickly to take out the Aedui settlements that are nearby yours (in transalpine gaul) and once this is done you can disband some units and start to build up your economy, as the only settlement the Aedui will have left (in cisalpine gaul) is not particularly close to you, and they will have to be dealing with the Romani over there soon anyways.

The key is to move quickly, the more time you take to destroy the Aedui in transalpine gaul, the more debt you will incur, because you cannot really afford to disband any units. In your first turn, when you actually have money, my advice would be to spend it on Bataroas. Some may disagree with me, but in my opinion, since you're going to be debt until you defeat most of the Aedui anyways, you might as well use the money you have to train some of the best infantry available to you at this point. I would probably disband the Leuce Epos light cavalry (but only if it looked like I could raise enough infantry before going broke). They're expensive and I don't find them to be good for much at this point other than acting as a diversion. If you fight defensive battles where the Aedui is forced to attack you, you probably won't need them anyways. Also, if you have a navy (I know the Aedui does but I don't recall if the Arverni do) disband them immediately. There's no need for them now and they cost a bunch.

If you can defeat the Aedui in transalpine gaul, then you can relax and disband units and build up your economy (focusing on farms and roads first), unless, that is, the Aedui have managed to build up a powerful cisapline gallic empire. But I doubt that they will be able to considering the Romani will soon be knocking on their door. It may be advisable to get on good relations with the Romani during this early period of the game. You will have to fight them eventually, but right now they can provide sea trade if you get your ports up and going and they can help you destroy the Aedui in cisalpine gaul.

[lionhard]

Simply as meantioned above, the best defence is a good offence

[seienchin]

Thats kinda sad, that EB forces you with some factions to blitz every enemy in sight. I rarely play those factions, though the gaul campain is still fun, unlike pontos or pahvla.

[Commander]

Well guys, I've followed your advices.

First of all, I restarted the campaign, I had really no hope. I started as you suggested, and I attacked the Aedui in the second turn (the movement restrictions didn't let me attack in the first one) with almost all I had.
With the main army I obliterated an Aedui army with a Heroic Victory, very near their capital (Gallic for Alesia maybe?), so I took it some turns after that.
There were some reinforcements who were suposed to meet the main army, but got attacked in the way, and I kept retiring until I got very near the second transalpine Aedui settlement. I obtained a Heroic Victory against an army of them once again (thanks to the Gallic Light Cavalry... I really like that guys, although as you say, are very expensive to mantain), and then I took that settlement.

BTW, I didn't assaulted the walls... I just let them come out for me... I usually do that... is that completely wrong? I know I lose a lot of time, but it assures me the victory.

I left the Cisalpine Aedui Settlement, so they're still alive, and I don't plan to attack them anytime soon. But even though they have just one settlement, they just don't want to become my protectorate , maybe I'll have to put an army outside their doors.

Now I have a doubt, about the Reforms of the Celts... is the Lv 4 Market the one that costs like 6000 mnai, or one even larger? And will the other Celtic factions help me with that? I mean, I know they build up their cities and everything, but I'm not counting on them

And, what are the units you get in the first reform? Neitos and Arjos?

Thanks a lot again guys

[athanaric]

Now I have a doubt, about the Reforms of the Celts... is the Lv 4 Market the one that costs like 6000 mnai, or one even larger? And will the other Celtic factions help me with that? I mean, I know they build up their cities and everything, but I'm not counting on them

You don't have bigger markets than lvl 3 (6130 mnai). At least I have never seen bigger ones around among Gallic factions. Better try to accelerate the reforms yourself - although in my Casse campaign, they were triggered by the other factions and I was mightily surprised.

And, what are the units you get in the first reform? Neitos and Arjos?

First reform (Time of Bondsmen):

You gain Gaelaiche (decent light spearmen), and Sotaroas (Gallic archer-spearmen). Gaelaiche are a slightly tougher unit than Gaeroas, and, unlike the latter, recruitable in all of Gaul. You should start replacing your Lugoae with Gaelaiche, because these guys are twice as good as Lugoae.

Second reform (Time of Soldiers):

You gain Neitos () and Arjos IIRC. You lose Lugoae and Cidainh (chariots). (not that you needed chariots in the first place)

[WinsingtonIII]

Well guys, I've followed your advices.

First of all, I restarted the campaign, I had really no hope. I started as you suggested, and I attacked the Aedui in the second turn (the movement restrictions didn't let me attack in the first one) with almost all I had.
With the main army I obliterated an Aedui army with a Heroic Victory, very near their capital (Gallic for Alesia maybe?), so I took it some turns after that.
There were some reinforcements who were suposed to meet the main army, but got attacked in the way, and I kept retiring until I got very near the second transalpine Aedui settlement. I obtained a Heroic Victory against an army of them once again (thanks to the Gallic Light Cavalry... I really like that guys, although as you say, are very expensive to mantain), and then I took that settlement.

BTW, I didn't assaulted the walls... I just let them come out for me... I usually do that... is that completely wrong? I know I lose a lot of time, but it assures me the victory.

I left the Cisalpine Aedui Settlement, so they're still alive, and I don't plan to attack them anytime soon. But even though they have just one settlement, they just don't want to become my protectorate , maybe I'll have to put an army outside their doors.

Now I have a doubt, about the Reforms of the Celts... is the Lv 4 Market the one that costs like 6000 mnai, or one even larger? And will the other Celtic factions help me with that? I mean, I know they build up their cities and everything, but I'm not counting on them

And, what are the units you get in the first reform? Neitos and Arjos?

Thanks a lot again guys

Awesome! I'm glad it worked out for you. Yeah I just personally don't like the Gallic Light Cavalry because I find skirmisher cavalry in general to be a bit underwhelming in EB. But that's just my personal opinion, and if they work for you then great!

I don't think there's anything wrong with starving out the enemy and letting them sally out to you. Some people like to attack because it is harder then defending, but personally, I think in the situation you were in, starving them out and ensuring victory instead of risking it all with an attack was the smart thing to do. Keep in mind, though, that the longer your troops are in enemy territory, the lower their morale in battle will be, as they start to ration and starve.

I'm glad we could help you out! But I'll leave the reforms to someone more qualified to explain them than me, plus, I think Athanaric may have already answered your question.

[The Celtic Viking]

(not that you needed chariots in the first place)

Hey! Cidainh are awesome! They're excellent cavalry-killers and they scare enemy infantry (which made them instrumental in my defeating Jebivjetar in our MP battle - without them I would have suffered a crushing defeat). If you know how to use them, and properly protect them, they'll make life so much easier for your Gallic heroes, just like they have for me.

The Celts knew that intimidation is the strongest weapon an army can wield, and the Cidainh are intimidation put on wheels. Together with Uirodusios and/or Gaesatae, you'll have the enemy run home crying in no time.

[athanaric]

Hey! Cidainh are awesome! They're excellent cavalry-killers and they scare enemy infantry (which made them instrumental in my defeating Jebivjetar in our MP battle - without them I would have suffered a crushing defeat). If you know how to use them, and properly protect them, they'll make life so much easier for your Gallic heroes, just like they have for me.

Yeah I use Cidainh too, as Casse, but I generally find them too much trouble (pathfinding issues). And the Arverni get great cavalry anyway (with Leuce Epos and Brihentin/Remi Mairepos, the only thing you'll be wanting is HAs). But the Cidainh voice is really awesome.


BTW one of you Aedui/Arverni players could try to assemble a "fear army", composed only of Cidainh, Gaesatae, Tindanotae, Worgozez, Uirodosios, and Vojinos, and post pictures of it. I'd really love to see that (alternatively it could be done with Carthage, and elephants instead of chariots).

[Commander]

Thanks once again to everyone.

Well, the thing is that I already have the 4 Lvl 3 Markets, the Dauerdanoch (Great Markets, yes, I was confused, I thought it was 3 Lvl 4 Markets)
But the reform just does not trigger. I know I have to have good MICs to build the new units, but the "building" called Time of Freemen does not change to Time of Bondsmen... am I doing something wrong?

[anubis88]

Thanks once again to everyone.

Well, the thing is that I already have the 4 Lvl 3 Markets, the Dauerdanoch (Great Markets, yes, I was confused, I thought it was 3 Lvl 4 Markets)
But the reform just does not trigger. I know I have to have good MICs to build the new units, but the "building" called Time of Freemen does not change to Time of Bondsmen... am I doing something wrong?

Well first of all, i think the "building" doesn't change, you just get a new reform marker, so you have both IIRC.

Second, it may take some time for the reform to kick in.

Also, out of curiosity, since you are a newbie, did you start the EB script?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Thanks once again to everyone.

Well, the thing is that I already have the 4 Lvl 3 Markets, the Dauerdanoch (Great Markets, yes, I was confused, I thought it was 3 Lvl 4 Markets)
But the reform just does not trigger. I know I have to have good MICs to build the new units, but the "building" called Time of Freemen does not change to Time of Bondsmen... am I doing something wrong?

In my experience it takes somewhere from 1-4 years. In all honesty, Time of Bondsmen is not that exciting. Galaiche are good to have and I recruit them and Sotoroas can be useful to distract enemy forces and fight against cavalry, but the real meat of Celtic reforms is in Time of Soldiers. Neitos

Actually the most useful unit I feel like I got out of Time of Bondsmen are the Gallic Shortswordsmen. Even though they are only recruitable in one province, they do an absolutely amazing job as flankers because they are so fast. Basically the Western version of Galatian Shortswordsmen.

Also as Aedui or Arverni, you lose access to Cidahn in the Time of Bondsmen rather than in Time of Soldiers like the Casse.

[the man with no name]

Second, it may take some time for the reform to kick in.

Also, out of curiosity, since you are a newbie, did you start the EB script?

lol
But yeah, you should make sure you turn the EB script on and if you do that the reforms might trigger. I believe there is a quote for that right? You should also try an Aedui campaign. They are a wonderful faction and IMO have BETTER units.

[Commander]

Hahaha, yes, I always turn the script on, don't worry about that.

Still some years since I built the 4 Lvl 3 Markets and nothing happens , I'm pretty worried about that. I know maybe the first reform isn't that important, but I want it anyway

About the Aedui, IIRC, they were the ones who were on Rome's side, right? At first I was going to chose them, simply because I like the color of their units, but then I heard that Vercingetorix was an Arverni, and that they're the ones who hate Rome, so...
Also I heard that the special characters who are not born by the start of the game, are not triggered. That's a shame, because we can't get Hannibal, Vercingetorix, Caesar, and so many more. But well, I guess it's understandable...

[athanaric]

You should also try an Aedui campaign. They are a wonderful faction and IMO have BETTER units.

The difference is exactly one unit... Admittedly, the Carnute Cingetos are a little bit better than Arjos, but they come in smaller numbers and are probably worse against cavalry. And besides, the Aedui buggers are usually the ones in EB who ally with Rome, while the other Barbarians put up a fight.

[NeoSpartan]

Simply as meantioned above, the best defence is a good offence

In the real world??????.......

...no


In RTW world???..... hellz yeah

[NeoSpartan]

Awesome! I'm glad it worked out for you. Yeah I just personally don't like the Gallic Light Cavalry because I find skirmisher cavalry in general to be a bit underwhelming in EB. But that's just my personal opinion, and if they work for you then great!

....

Gallic Light Cavalry has a nasty AP spear and pretty good charge.... it is a good deal for $1900+

[king of thracia]

Leuce Epos are excellent cavalry that get more kills than my cataphracts, and I love my cataphracts. Leuce Epos have a nasty charge and are not that expensive for cavalry. Don't leave them in melee

[WinsingtonIII]

Leuce Epos are excellent cavalry that get more kills than my cataphracts, and I love my cataphracts. Leuce Epos have a nasty charge and are not that expensive for cavalry. Don't leave them in melee

I don't leave them in melee. Maybe I just haven't used them enough, but they have never been particularly decisive in my limited experience with the Gallic factions.

[Blxz]

I don't leave them in melee. Maybe I just haven't used them enough, but they have never been particularly decisive in my limited experience with the Gallic factions.

I have to agree with you. I can't find a little niche for them to fill in my armies. They simply melted when I used them online and ended up costing me the battle. Against AI players they may have some uses when heavily micromanaged. I just don't care enough to bother with too much of that.

[anubis88]

Well as much as i'm concerned, the Leuce Epos are the most cost efficient cavalry in the game. Even if they hadn't had javelins, they would still cost less than 500mnai in upkeep, and can have a decent charge and fare pretty well against other mediocre cavalry. If you don't have a lot of money, they can really help you out

[athanaric]

Leuce Epos are vital in campaign because, being superb pursuers, they can catch fleeing enemy generals. They are an absolute must have for Aedui, Arverni, and Swêboz. Also for Casse if they wish to expand on the continent.

[king of thracia]

I have to agree with you. I can't find a little niche for them to fill in my armies. They simply melted when I used them online and ended up costing me the battle. Against AI players they may have some uses when heavily micromanaged. I just don't care enough to bother with too much of that.

Don't know why you'd expect to win MP without micro, lmao. If opponent didn't have massed archers then you simply don't know how to use them.

[WinsingtonIII]

I can understand what you guys are saying about the cost-effectiveness of Leuce Epos, they are quite cheap. I just don't think it's justifiable to claim that they are decisive battle-winners. Cost-effective, maybe even surprisingly good light cavalry? Sure. But not decisive battle-winners in most cases.

Don't know why you'd expect to win MP without micro, lmao. If opponent didn't have massed archers then you simply don't know how to use them.

Please spare us all the personal attacks, it doesn't add anything to the discussion. By the way, there are a huge variety of explanations for losing a multiplayer game when you happen to be using Leuce Epos that do not involve a failure to micromanage your cavalry or massed archers on the part of the enemy.

[king of thracia]

I can understand what you guys are saying about the cost-effectiveness of Leuce Epos, they are quite cheap. I just don't think it's justifiable to claim that they are decisive battle-winners. Cost-effective, maybe even surprisingly good light cavalry? Sure. But not decisive battle-winners in most cases.

They have a real charge, a high lethality charge. There are two types of lance cavalry which are generally identifiable by the way the horseman holds his spear, either overhand or underhand. Although there are exceptions, underhand is better, having about double the lethality. Leuce Epos are of underhand. A useful stat viewer for units can be found at http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net

Such a cavalry charge will cause massive casualties and if done at the right time will cause routing. Naturally, this is helpful in deciding the battle quickly, faster than infantry grind down as well as being much easier and therefore more decisive than barbarian infantry charges. With Leuce Epos alt+click to charge while they still have javelin ammo. You can turn autofire on as desired and they will throw javelins while charging. Leuce Epos do a tremendous amount of killing between javelins, charges, and routers and do not have to close to melee to operate. In this manner they are much like their archer-lancer brethren.

It is good to rout for a quick victory and as well as to severely deplete routed groups so they do not reform and return to the battle.

Please spare us all the personal attacks, it doesn't add anything to the discussion. By the way, there are a huge variety of explanations for losing a multiplayer game when you happen to be using Leuce Epos that do not involve a failure to micromanage your cavalry or massed archers on the part of the enemy.

Yes. Blaming the Leuce Epos is rather disingenuous. They are not that hard to use although allowances must be made for individual skill level. Blx, you might want to advance beyond the point of just throwing two armies at each other ;)

[athanaric]

The point of Leuce Epos, as I've hinted before, is that they are vital in campaign.

- Two of their units can sandwich a heavy cavalry unit with a double charge. I've destroyed Seleukid Cataphracts with Bedouin cavalry this way.

- They are extremely important for running down the enemy general. Especially if you're playing against a (cowardly) faction with very fast cavalry generals, like Epeiros, SPQR, or Lusotannan. Of course, you shouldn't try to attack a Germanic or KH general with them...

- They make excellent pursuers to mop the field clean of your routing enemies, ensuring that you don't have to fight the same army twice. Pursuing with heavy cav is possible, but it sucks, especially roleplay wise.

- Very useful distraction and general annoyance to lure away enemy troops. In campaign, it may happen that you face a superior army (like a Roman PE+Triarii+Neitos fullstack ). Superior mobility is crucial, not only with Nomad factions.

[WinsingtonIII]

They have a real charge, a high lethality charge. There are two types of lance cavalry which are generally identifiable by the way the horseman holds his spear, either overhand or underhand. Although there are exceptions, underhand is better, having about double the lethality. Leuce Epos are of underhand. A useful stat viewer for units can be found at http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net

Such a cavalry charge will cause massive casualties and if done at the right time will cause routing. Naturally, this is helpful in deciding the battle quickly, faster than infantry grind down as well as being much easier and therefore more decisive than barbarian infantry charges. With Leuce Epos alt+click to charge while they still have javelin ammo. You can turn autofire on as desired and they will throw javelins while charging. Leuce Epos do a tremendous amount of killing between javelins, charges, and routers and do not have to close to melee to operate. In this manner they are much like their archer-lancer brethren.

It is good to rout for a quick victory and as well as to severely deplete routed groups so they do not reform and return to the battle.

Yes. Blaming the Leuce Epos is rather disingenuous. They are not that hard to use although allowances must be made for individual skill level. Blx, you might want to advance beyond the point of just throwing two armies at each other ;)

I'm not that new to EB... I know about the unit viewer, the difference between underhand and overhand lance cavalry, how to alt click, how to turn fire-at-will on and off, how to charge cavalry, how to use cavalry in general, and how to do more than just throw two armies at each other ( throwing two armies at each other is actually pretty difficult considering I only have control over one army...). If you are legitimately trying to help, then thank you, but that little dig at the end makes it seem like you're trying to talk down to me, and I don't appreciate that. I don't understand why you feel the need to insult me in the first place, considering all we are doing is talking about a light cavalry unit.

I think I should revise my earlier statement. I can use skirmisher cavalry fairly effectively (I may not be great with them but I'm certainly not making the rookie mistakes that you are implying). That said, I don't particularly like Leuce Epos. It's a personal opinion, that's all. I don't understand why everyone is jumping all over me about this in first place, all I was doing was expressing a personal opinion, and if I had realized how much trouble it was going to cause, I never would have said anything.

The point of Leuce Epos, as I've hinted before, is that they are vital in campaign.

- Two of their units can sandwich a heavy cavalry unit with a double charge. I've destroyed Seleukid Cataphracts with Bedouin cavalry this way.

- They are extremely important for running down the enemy general. Especially if you're playing against a (cowardly) faction with very fast cavalry generals, like Epeiros, SPQR, or Lusotannan. Of course, you shouldn't try to attack a Germanic or KH general with them...

- They make excellent pursuers to mop the field clean of your routing enemies, ensuring that you don't have to fight the same army twice. Pursuing with heavy cav is possible, but it sucks, especially roleplay wise.

- Very useful distraction and general annoyance to lure away enemy troops. In campaign, it may happen that you face a superior army (like a Roman PE+Triarii+Neitos fullstack ). Superior mobility is crucial, not only with Nomad factions.

Thank you for a response that was not insulting, but as I said, I understand their battlefield role and have used them that way. Since early on they are some of the only cavalry available to you as the Gallic factions, they are certainly important during campaigns, and I understand that. They are just not one of my favorite units, that's all. A personal opinion, nothing more.

[athanaric]

That said, I don't particularly like Leuce Epos. It's a personal opinion, that's all. I don't understand why everyone is jumping all over me about this in first place, all I was doing was expressing a personal opinion, and if I had realized how much trouble it was going to cause, I never would have said anything.

Probably because they are the favourite light cavalry unit of so many players... That said, although I find Leuce Epos very effective, I prefer Dahae Riders.