Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
It's about the "tailings", right? The leftover stuff containing heavy metals, that needs intense management to keep it from hurting flora and fawna (the twins I dated in the 70's from Indianapolis; there was this one time... *ahem*).
Screaming: "You have to stop mining!" is about as effective as "You have to stop driving!".
Not gonna happen. Better to direct attention to mitigation or conversion. Left-overs are always useful for something.
Last edited by KukriKhan; 12-02-2009 at 22:41.
Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
I enjoy a certain lightheartedness of tone, with a few teases thrown in for good measure.Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Underneath all that, I am afraid I am quite serious about this subject. I think Canada is undergoing a major ecological disaster. A major social disaster.
Canada is now the country with the highest Co2 emission per capita in the wotld. And the country that most obstructs international pollution agreements.
And what for? For the well-being of all Canadians? No. A few plunder and destroy Canada, like a plague of locusts, while the average Canadian will still be paying for cleaning it all up - if at all possible - for generations to come.
Oil has a logic all of its own. It is a dirty business. It creates a political class that owes its existence to a primitive and destructive industry. The industry will employ that class to trample civilized values: social justice, human rights, environmental protection, the common decencies we owe to other human beings.
It is not far-fetched to describe the current events as a 'Nigeriasation' of Canada. Canada's foundations are a wee bit stronger than Nigeria, so let's say that Canada needs to look a bit more to Norway, and a bit less to Venezuela or Brazil.CANADA: Govt Threatens Tar Sands Activists with Anti-Terror Laws
By Chris Arsenault
VANCOUVER, Oct 20 (IPS) - The provincial government in Alberta, Canada is threatening to unleash its counterterrorism plan if activists continue using civil disobedience to protest the tar sands, Canada's fastest source of greenhouse gas emissions.
In recent weeks, Greenpeace has staged three daring protests inside tar sands mines, temporarily shutting down parts of the world's largest energy project. On Oct. 3 and 4, activists blocked construction of an upgrader needed to refine heavy tar sands oil, belonging to Shell in Ft. Saskatchewan, Alberta.
Civil disobedience from Greenpeace, leading to 37 arrests, has enraged Alberta's conservative government. "We're coddling people who are breaking the law," complained Premier Ed Stelmach during a media scrum in early October.
"Premier Stelmach's public suggestion that he will use the 'force of the law to deal with these people' confirms his lack of knowledge of the limits of his authority and the clear rule that our system of justice cannot be interfered with or manipulated for political reasons," responded Brian Beresh, the defence lawyer representing arrested activists, at a news conference in Edmonton.
Legal scholars, including University of Alberta law professor Sanjiv Anand and Tom Engel of the Criminal Trial Lawyers Association, have criticised the provincial government for attempting to politicise legal proceedings.
"We're going to be working very closely with industry and our solicitor general will be reviewing all of the guidelines we have in place," said a visibly irritated Premier Stelmach in early October.
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48930
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
That's hilarious. Very clever too.
Sorry, should've acknoledged you post earlier.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Fair enough, you probably did mention something before I joined.
Still, a Canadian is more likely to be better informed about the situation than a Brit and a probable German (Unless of course, you are well informed), particularly as Meth will be most aware as to the effects on First Nation peoples.
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009...%80%A6-canada/
Those accursed facts, actually existing and all.
Huh? I don't quite understand, as I can't find any examples of that in the article.Most of his argument amounts to peer pressure and nothing more.
Cool, I'm on the fringeIt is just a leftist enviro pretending his fringe ideas are shared by a significant amount of people.
Regardless, Climate Change denial is much more of a fringe movement than whatever George Monbiot says.
True. But then, I would trust the opinion column in, say, the Daily Telegraph more than I do in the Sun, even though I read neither. There's a correlation between the respectability of the paper and that of the people who comment.Indeed. The Globe and Mail may well be one of the best papers in Canada, and indeed I read it regularly, but that doesn't make their opinion sections and guest pieces any more rational than anyone else's.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
that is all the attention the great moonbat deserves; contempt.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
I didn't see you bowing down to quid's opinion in the switzerland thread :p
The original article posted was terrible. A bunch of hyperbolic statements and things like "chemicals are released into the streams" without mentioning quantity. A good article would put everything into perspective with other industries, have solid numbers meaningful numbers, etc. There is no frame of reference provided for the numbers that he did state, so they are useless.
I learned nothing from the article other than the fact that some people are very upset with the oil extraction in alberta.
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Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Though I've read scary reports from what's happening there, this article doesn't show any fact or number. Not a single one. I know it's an opinion article, but you would expect some numbers or testimony. Here, we have nothing. The guy's simply not doing a very good work.
Then, it's full of average Canadian self-congratulatory myths, such as "Canadians are nice", "Canadians don't pollute", "Everybody loves Canadians", "Canada leads the way of this issue", or the ever worthy of a good laugh "The world cares about Canada".
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Why? Because some enviro's say so? Good grief man.
So what? It's not proven CO2 is the main reason besides the previous temperature increase.Canada is now the country with the highest Co2 emission per capita in the wotld. And the country that most obstructs international pollution agreements.
Bull. Who do you think it getting high paying jobs? How many jobs are created in those communities to support those jobs? Canada will be destroyed because of some mining? What farcical claims.And what for? For the well-being of all Canadians? No. A few plunder and destroy Canada, like a plague of locusts, while the average Canadian will still be paying for cleaning it all up - if at all possible - for generations to come.
It will certainly help all Canadians. The tar sands are a model of forward political thinking - being supported for decades by both ruling parties.
Blah blah blah. Any facts to back up that libel? No, because it's nothing but rhetoric with no basis in reality.Oil has a logic all of its own. It is a dirty business. It creates a political class that owes its existence to a primitive and destructive industry. The industry will employ that class to trample civilized values: social justice, human rights, environmental protection, the common decencies we owe to other human beings.
Facts? Yes, he shows figures that CO2 emissions have increased. That politics have occurred. That it takes water to make oil. That certain companies are investing.Those accursed facts, actually existing and all.
What he has no facts for are his allegations that the tar sands are environmentally hazardous or pollute or anything to back up his fundamental claim that the tar sands are harmful.
Made explicit; most of his argument is that this thing is evil (terribly evil!) and so the decent people of Canada should have no part in it because no one will like them anymore.Huh? I don't quite understand, as I can't find any examples of that in the article.
All this ranting has proven nothing about the "dangers" of tar sands because they are without facts. What pollutants are there, how does that compare to other industries, what's the safe level?Like most of the world's people, I have always held your nation in high regard. Yours is one of the best-loved countries on Earth, renowned for being friendly, peaceful and responsible. Your government is now burning this goodwill.
...Canada will be the only signatory to wildly miss its targets,... developing nations were so dismayed by Canada's wrecking tactics that most of them walked out while your officials were speaking. In Barcelona this month, non-governmental organizations attending the talks presented Canada with their Fossil of the Week award: Yours was the country that had done the most to prevent an agreement from being reached.
Canada's tactics have caused shock and revulsion everywhere. They are dragging your good name through the mud. Stephen Harper and Jim Prentice threaten to do as much damage to your international standing as George W. Bush and Dick Cheney did to that of the United States.
...The full-scale exploitation of the oil patch threatens to turn your beautiful country into the dirtiest country on Earth.
As the Nigerians, the Iraqis, the Russians and the Ecuadoreans can testify, this process brutalizes a nation.
No one who has seen images of the oil-sands operations can quite believe what Canada is doing to its own land. No one can quite believe that this prosperous country is treating its aboriginal peoples like Nigeria treats the Ogoni of the Niger Delta. The oil sands are turning Canada into a harder, crueller place.
... Some people in Canada boast that the oil sands will make you a second Saudi Arabia. This may be true in more than one sense: They could turn you into an oil-dependent state whose politics revolt the rest of the world.
Your government's behaviour in the talks is so destructive and the development of the oil sands is so damaging to global efforts to prevent climate breakdown that I have decided to break my self-imposed ban on flying to travel to Canada.
I hope to add my voice to those pleading with your government to stop wrecking the negotiations. I hope to encourage you to rise up against an industry that is attacking the prospects of all the world's people and wrecking your national image. We know that at heart you are a decent and sensible people. Please don't disappoint us.
The only support for tar sands being terrible or bad is rants by enviros. If you strip away the rhetoric, there's nothing there. It's a hollow man, blustering arguments on the outside and underneath no real reason for reasonable people to be upset.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
The extraction of tar sands creates many toxic and hazardous by products.
That is why the - very oil industry friendly - Alberta government has enacted pollution regulation.
Only two out of nine oil companies even intent to meet this very basic Alberta regulation.
The reaction of the Alberta gov't has not been to forbid the operation of corporations that openly refuse to comply with the regulation of the very Albertan gov't.Most of Canada's oil sands miners are unlikely to meet new timelines for cleaning up the vast volumes of toxic effluent they produce, according to a new analysis of corporate regulatory filings. Some projects, including Canadian Natural Resources Ltd.'s Horizon and Imperial Oil Ltd.'s Kearl, which has not yet been built, will be at least a decade late in meeting provincial criteria designed to speed the processing of liquid tailings, a pair of environmental groups found after scrutinizing 900 pages of plans.
The industry has already produced tailings waste ponds the size of downtown Vancouver. Their presence - and growth - have helped generate widespread environmental opposition to the oil sands.
Although companies say they are working hard to diminish their environmental footprint, only two of nine oil sands mines have sketched out a way to meet the new tailings rules, a revelation that is likely to focus more scrutiny upon the industry.
"It's quite astonishing," said Simon Dyer, the oil sands program director at the Pembina Institute, which co-wrote the analysis with Water Matters, and wants many of the plans rejected. "I haven't seen regulatory applications before where companies submit things that apparently aren't compliant with the rules."
Instead, Alberta threatens to use its anti-terror laws against Albertan citizens who demand their gov't enforces its democratically decided laws.
Linky to a Canadian quality paper: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle1385146/
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
No, that's according to environmental groups. And, big surprise, implementing stringent new regulations can't always be done swiftly. And the regulations came about because the tailings ponds look bad, not because of objective pollution dangers.
And they're threatening to use laws to crack down on people who, from what I've gathered, appear to be breaking into dangerous mining areas and interfering with safe work.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
LOL
No, that's according to environmental groups.
I can't believe that you discredit information about the environment just because it comes from an Environmental NGO. Would you believe it if it was released by Shell?
That's not the problem. It's just a "We just don't care" attitude.
Water pollution that comes about as a result of mining and oil refinery (Of which this does both) is notorious for being particularly hazardous to both people and wildlife.. If the tailing ponds are unlined, then it will be seeping into the groundwater.
Note: Not intending to kill people. Not intending to spread terror. Not motivated by financial gain. And they're using anti-terror laws to prosecute them?
And they're threatening to use laws to crack down on people who, from what I've gathered, appear to be breaking into dangerous mining areas and interfering with safe work.The worst that should be meted out is trespassing. And regardless of the laws, good for them. Direct action is sometimes the only to get people to listen.
Last edited by Subotan; 12-02-2009 at 23:48.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
That link doesn't have anything about use of anti-terror laws that I can see. L
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
No. I don't see why partisan sources are the be all and end all.
Ah, that you've studied or are just now making up? Because with all the other 'arguments' put forward by the enviros, I am inclined to think it is the latter.That's not the problem. It's just a "We just don't care" attitude.
So we're judging on notoriety now and not science? Now, I'm not familiar with the science behind tailings ponds, but I'd wager I'm more informed than you (having worked on an engineering project for an oil refinery waste treatment plants).Water pollution that comes about as a result of mining and oil refinery (Of which this does both) is notorious for being particularly hazardous to both people and wildlife.. If the tailing ponds are unlined, then it will be seeping into the groundwater.
They are intending to force political change by breaking the law and placing other people in danger. Not mere trespassing.Note: Not intending to kill people. Not intending to spread terror. Not motivated by financial gain. And they're using anti-terror laws to prosecute them?
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
language warning
He also has some ideas who to tell about such rogue activities.
(I'm not saying you're like him, I was just reminded of it.)
Last edited by Husar; 12-03-2009 at 00:06.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Wait, you mean like the individual/organization who detonated a few bombs in the Canadian West? It got a fair bit of press at the time, I believe over the summer.Note: Not intending to kill people. Not intending to spread terror. Not motivated by financial gain. And they're using anti-terror laws to prosecute them?
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
As a Vancouverite (Required by law to be a tree-hugger), I must say that none of this business argued by Germans, Brits, Frenchmen, and Americans make much sense to me. What I can say is that oil sands are indeed a national issue, and not limited to the minds of hippies. Newfies hate them because they supersede their own oil rigs, the Quebecois hate them because they aren't Quebecois, and the usual debates happen along in the rest of the population. Oh, the natives hate them too, because the oil sands are extracted on their land.
Getting back the the Newfies, why aren't their reserves being pumped? Because they voted liberal. Alberta, where only one non-Conservative MP was elected, is the South of the North. The idea that Canada must support Harper (Who runs a minority government, btw) because he was voted in twice is ridiculous beyond description. A rather left-leaning democrat is in power in the US, but I'm certain that he's a bit controversial. I don't even know whether or not to feel insulted by the patronising tone here, or to simply accept that we're a bit like a troublesome growth on America's head. Given the state of our economy, that is debateable.
We live off our natural resources, yet we had been rooted to Britain, and thus the West, since day one. We are a developed nation that makes most of it's money from forestry, mining, extracting, andfurlack any major domestic companies. How exactly does an idiotic half-breed like us survive in this world? The fact that we could hardly manage if we chose not to exploit the land, combined with current enviromental issues means that yes, are as as divided as any other democratic nation on this Earth. Debate for us? Fine, but we are no Monaco, with uniform issues and 10 different last names. We are a dispersed, western, population, in the second largest country in the world.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
- Proud Horseman of the Presence
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present: The Awakening.We live off our natural resources, yet we had been rooted to Britain, and thus the West, since day one. We are a developed nation that makes most of it's money from forestry, mining, extracting, and fur lack any major domestic companies. How exactly does an idiotic half-breed like us survive in this world? The fact that we could hardly manage if we chose not to exploit the land, combined with current enviromental issues means that yes, are as as divided as any other democratic nation on this Earth. Debate for us? Fine, but we are no Monaco, with uniform issues and 10 different last names. We are a dispersed, western, population, in the second largest country in the world.
Be very afraid.
Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
I don't really agree with the tone of the articles posted (I'm not a big fan of angry rants with an us vs. them, anyone who doesn't agree with me is evil attitude), but I feel that the oil sands operations aren't worth the trouble. There is still plenty of oil to be obtained using more conventional methods which in my opinion do less damage to the environment. To see the damage that oil sands mines do to the environment, all you have to do is look at the pictures:
http://legalplanet.files.wordpress.c...-tar-sands.jpg
http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-con...pit_mining.jpg
http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/...taOilSands.jpg
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
This one is kind of pretty
Damaging the environment is a good thing.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Believe me, I'm not trying to attempt anything of the sort.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Come again?
EDIT: Here ya go.
Last edited by Megas Methuselah; 12-03-2009 at 05:14.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
I didn't say that some people didn't have it bad. Not everything revolves around the natives, and hence that statement does nothing to disprove my claim. Alberta is not a bad place to live at all.
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 12-03-2009 at 05:16.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Ok, fixed; we're cool now.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Rather socialist Scandinavia + Iceland are rated as very good places to live as well. That title is meaningless for htis subject.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
There are a fair amount of visible minorities in Alberta, and most of them do well. I understand where the natives are coming from, and to a large extent I sympathize, especially given my family's history of being on the repressed end, but I think that you and I have very different ways of addressing the problem. I don't believe that there is anything stopping a native from going places in Alberta. Yes, some things may hold one back, and it certainly is more difficult for a native, but it is possible. In this manner, you have many natives who succeed and, unfortunately, many who don't.
Regardless, even if natives are automatically at the bottom of the Albertan barrel, which is a complex issue and not entirely true one way or the other, that would still leave 95% of people leading good lives. Now, the oil sands are still relevant. Why? Because that industry gives Alberta a large portion of their cash. If it wasn't there, everybody would be worse off - and yes, I believe the natives would be as well.
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 12-03-2009 at 05:29.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Ok.
Oh?I understand where the natives are coming from, and to a large extent I sympathize, especially given my family's history of being on the repressed end, but I think that you and I have very different ways of addressing the problem.
I don't disagree with you here, buddy. I just hope my links and knowledge of Aboriginal issues enlightened our dear Orgahs as to why the Canadian Aboriginals are such an impoverished minority. Yes, it's exceedingly difficult to get out of the hell-hole but, given a few special circumstances, it is indeed possible.I don't believe that there is anything stopping a native from going places in Alberta. Yes, some things may hold one back, and it certainly is more difficult for a native, but it is possible. In this manner, you have many natives who succeed and, unfortunately, many who don't.
My dream, as is the call of some political theorists, is to see Canada reform its government to include representation of its minority nations (Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal alike), to re-adress the severely outdated (and, thus, racist/sexist) Indian Act, settle all of the legal disputes with Canada, and to bring the Aboriginal standards of living up to the same level as the average Canadian.
Yeah, sure, though that 95% is a percentage of non-Aboriginal people, and not a percentage reflecting how many people are living well. In spite of this, I would still agree with your point that many people are positively affected from the oil sands.Regardless, even if natives are automatically at the bottom of the Albertan barrel, which is a complex issue and not entirely true one way or the other, that would still leave 95% of people leading good lives.
Many Alberta Aboriginals are living in such squalid conditions right now that it really doesn't matter, man, though I am glad of the fact that some of them can find employment in the situation.Now, the oil sands are still relevant. Why? Because that industry gives Alberta a large portion of their cash. If it wasn't there, everybody would be worse off - and yes, I believe the natives would be as well.
Last edited by Megas Methuselah; 12-03-2009 at 05:46.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
There was once an article on some Canadian newspaper, about a doctor living in Alberta, who got sued by 2 different oils companies because he wrote a report saying that he had been facing more and more cases of cancer in the area in the past few years.
All of a sudden, people (usually who work in the tar sand industry) stoped going to his office, and he moved to Ontario, after it was made clear that he couldn't do his job properly anymore. Then there was this other article which explained how the local natives were being bullied and force-expropriated by the companies, in a pure Brazil-like fashion.
I'll look up for them.
In any case, I don't buy the whole "tar sands are improving the life of the population". Sure, they might increase the wealth of Alberta (and thus, the life of some people living there), and of some companies. But I don't think people who live around the places where tar sand is exploited are better off, white or non white alike. Forests are burned down, water ponds are polluted, natural species disappear, the list goes on.
Clearly a case of nigeriaizaition, as Louis pointed out. These companies work in complete secrecy, hunt down journalists and whoever might oppose them, don't respect national laws and regulations, and bully the local population in order to get rid of any possible issue. EMFM, I'm surprised you refuse to see this, despite claiming to be quite aware of what's going on in Canada: when I was there, it was a big issue, that made the headline quite often on national newspapers. I know you hate environmentalists, but in this case, I'd say you're openly being blind, just because you don't want to agree with any left-wing-fringe-envo's-nutjobs, while it's actually a problem brought up by a lot of people, both from the left and from the right.
I have not much issues with tar sands themselves. We'll need to exploit them at some point anyway, and it's going to be a polluting process. The thing is, from all I've read, it's currently being done by companies who work as if they were in Vietnam, Nigeria or China. Not only that shouldn't be tolerated, but that makes Canada and Canadians look like fools.
Last edited by Meneldil; 12-03-2009 at 13:45.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
I remember this article as well. The Tribes that lived near the Tar Sands were reported as having an abnormally high percentage of it's people either coming in or dying from Thyroid Related Issues (including Cancer). And that was in like 2006, can't believe nothing still has been done.
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
Not all of the oil companies in the area are evil.
Status Emeritus
Re: Evil Americans Still Ruin the World for Petrodollars
For those interested National Geographic got an article about it here.
For size, check out google maps. It's way larger than any open mining pit operation in the world btw.
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
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