Larger territory with it being impractical to build a large train network and more extreme climates come to mind. Therefore on heating, cooling, and transport alone those groups need to spend more.Originally Posted by Meneldil
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Larger territory with it being impractical to build a large train network and more extreme climates come to mind. Therefore on heating, cooling, and transport alone those groups need to spend more.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Canada, Oz and the US emit triple the amount of CO2 of Sweden, which is fairly cold and large too. Triple the amount of very environmentally conscious New Zealand too.
Double that of icy and empty Norway too, where oil flows free of charge from the tap.
Political will is the overriding reason.
Edit: My oh my, look at this list of Co2 emission per capita by US state:
Texas 28.38
California 11.07
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions
Not size, climate or transport are decisive. The political will is decisive. Blue states are on a European / New Zealand level. The more red a state, the more greenhouse gases. Reaching a level of emissions resembling erm...well nothing comparable to anything on this planet actually. Maybe Venus. Where it is 600 degrees owing to runaway greenhouse effects.
Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-09-2009 at 21:59.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
And the amount of CO2 compared by GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions
The US and Australia are somewhere down below in between Malawi and the People's Democratic Republic of Laos.
Considering the effects of pollution are felt globally, with financial consequences too, in effect the world is subsidising American products.
Note where Japan, Germany, Britain and all the other economical powerhouses of this world are. Somewhere near the top, together with the rest of the industrialised world. So there is no economical penalty for being energy efficient. It will not ruin your economy.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
More BS. Idaho has a lower per capita than California. And venus is hot BECAUSE ITS CLOSER TO THE SUN.
I don't want to pay more for anything to reduce CO2 emissions. The US has more emissions because it's larger, has more people spread out over a much bigger area, and we're not about to idiotically cripple our industry to stop CO2 from being emitted.
I guess that shows who the smart ones are.Considering the effects of pollution are felt globally, with financial consequences too, in effect the world is subsidising American products.
CR
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Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Venus is hotter than Mercury.And venus is hot BECAUSE ITS CLOSER TO THE SUN.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Azatoth is right. This is due to the immense amounts of CO2 in its atmosphere.And venus is hot BECAUSE ITS CLOSER TO THE SUN.
This space intentionally left blank.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
while an amusing little aside, that overly simplifies the issue, as venus lacks the single largest carbon control mechanism available to a planet; plate tectonics.
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Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
The clincher as to why that is the case, is amusing in this discussion.Venus is hotter than Mercury.
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Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Really? Because mercury has no atmosphere, the direct opposite of venus?
Also, Louis said a "runaway greenhouse effect" - could any of you point out where the runaway part is? Is venus' temperature increasing? Or is it at equilibrium now?
Yes, lots of CO2 - and other gases.This is due to the immense amounts of CO2 in its atmosphere.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
If it is at equilibrium, it's probably because massive cloud of gas blocks out the sunlight.
I don't think venus is a telling example for either side of the argument, and louis didn't really intend it as such.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Sure. See links below.
Only greenhouse effects on planet earth are controversial. All of the other planets lack an oil industry so the study of their greenhouse effects can be studied objectively.
NASA would be a good place to start. There are such scientific endeavors as planetology and astrobiology, where it is commonly understood that greenhouse effects are an important constituency of a planet's climate. These greenhouse effects are studied and commonly accepted. No 'lack of complete models', no fake or bought science, no vested interests trying to create 'controversy'.
http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/new...ws.cfm?id=1386
Or Wikipedia:
It is currently thought that the atmosphere of Venus up to around 4 billion years ago was more like that of the Earth with liquid water on the surface. The runaway greenhouse effect may have been caused by the evaporation of the surface water and subsequent rise of the levels of other greenhouse gases.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
Now that is an interesting chart, and you're quite right, the per capita emissions are the correct way to read it. Totals are much less instructuve. For instance, what the heck is wrong with Indiana at 36.43? Wyoming and Montana I'm willing to give a pass, and West Virginia makes sense, what with them being the coal capitol of the world. But what the heck is Indiana's excuse?
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
I think indiana has coal. And lots of manufacturing.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
CO2 emission by State reflects the distribution of energy sources available, the existence of energy production, and manufacturing activities. So I'll give Louisiana and Alaska a pass. Oil refinery and oil exploitation create a lot of CO2 emission.
But the story does not stop there. Compare for example:
New Mexico 29.81
Arizona 15.98
The leftist West Coast is simply at European / Japanese levels:
Washington State 12.80
Oregon 12.35
California 11.07
Half that of their neighbours in the Rockies. Yet these three states are not economically ruined by clamping down on pollution. Far from it. Neither is Sweden or Denmark or Japan. Wastefulness is not a succesful business model. Except for those who exploit and sell the resource.
Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
In the case of Cali, the economic effects of low-C02 usage may be lost in the general collapse.
In the case of states in the Rockies, you have mining, agriculture, lower population density, higher heating costs, and a dearth of 4WD vehicles that are actually being used for their intended purpose.
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Re: Do as we say, but don't do as we do.
I think you mean "plethora," not "dearth," but yeah. I never mind seeing AWD vehicles in the country, but a Hummer in Manhattan is deeply offensive. Best bumper-sticker I ever saw on a civilian Humvee: "I'm changing the environment; ask me how!" Obviously not put there by the owner.
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