Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 180 of 375

Thread: The Geert Wilders trial

  1. #151
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    'The Netherlands for the Dutch! Stop the immigration! Western culture is superior, Islam inferior! Mass deportations of Muslims! A million to be expelled!'

    Oh, and the bleached blond hair is entirely irrelevant when all the above is monomanically shouted by a person of mixed race immigrant ancestry himself. This man suffers in no way whatsoever from any identity complex whatsoever.





    I wonder - who is mad here? Louis? Or taboos in the Netherlands?

    'Okay, but even if you are right, Louis - and I am certainly not convinced you are - why should it be at all relevant?'
    That is a good question. Me, I'd say that this man may soon be the leader of the largest Dutch party. A party without any history and which consist of...this man alone.
    So this man's personality is important. There is no difference between party and person. Nor between person and party - Wilders self-identifies with his 'mission'.
    And if this man does have issues, he may actually make good on his promises. He may actually be the fanatical maniac he appears to be. His quotes may not be mere provocations. He may actually mean what he says. And act on it....
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  2. #152
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    [...]
    You just don't get it, do you? You persist in your belief that you actually know and understand Dutch society and its complexities, as well as modern Dutch history and its complexities, when your entire argument is based on one single study which came as a surprise to the vast majority of Dutchmen, and which, moreover, is the only one of its kind. Unlike in France, there is no air of bitterness or well-known problem between the Indo minority and the ethnic Dutch majority.

    On that note, let me lay bare the crux of my problem with whatever you're arguing here. You see, you don't live here. You don't know this society. You live in France, you know that country from the inside, but you don't know the Netherlands. Again, your entire argument is based wholly on one single isolated study with a clear political bias. Nobody in this country will "get it" if you cite a pied-noir complex when it comes to the Indo's. That is because such a supposed trauma does not exist. Nobody hears "Geert Wilders is half-Indo" and thinks "oh, so that's why he says the things he says!"

    Of course, to counter such a fact, you maintain that Dutch society "ignores" such a phenomenon. What do you base that on, friend? Nothing, except Van Leeuwen. Nothing is weaker than an argument based on a single source.

    You ask me for sources? I'd rather point to the lack of ones. It is simply not an issue here. Van Leeuwen is alone in claiming these things. Every Indo I've spoken to about the matter (and this is not the first time) tells me that she makes wild conclusions grasped out of nowhere. Here, even this rather mild, if not overtly friendly piece already shows you, in the second to last paragraph, that her conclusions are anything but broadly accepted in the Indo community. I might add that Indo's I know have rejected her claims about being put in the same category with Moroccans and Turks in the '60s and '70s, as well.

    Besides Van Leeuwen as your (only) source, you cite some general belief that what flows out of colonial (and even non-colonial) European history is all essentially the same. You're arguing with a history student here, bud, and nothing is as untrue as claiming that the history of different societies is essentially entirely the same. Similar in pattern, perhaps, but not an exact parallel in the least. France is not the Netherlands, or Germany for that matter.

    My Indo friends I cited because I actually know a bunch of Indo people and have experience with the Indo community. You do not. All you have -- again -- is a single, isolated source. The Moluccans I cited because they are the only group in this country to have any bitterness associated with our colonial history. And again, this has been and is in the vast majority of cases not aimed at Muslims, but at the Dutch government. Again, your argument does not match with reality. It only works, apparently, when in France.

    So why do you persist, even though you base yourself entirely on someone who is more or less the only person in this country to make these claims (at least, in the public debate)? Every single Dutchman present has told you that the issue you percieve is news to them. I challenge you to find any other source than Van Leeuwen on the subject.

    In summary, your argument is weak and totters on the argument made by one source which does not find itself in a known scholarly debate on the subject of Indo identity. In other words, friend, the Indo community here does not have a pied-noir complex. And this is not because we shove it all into a dark corner and try and forget about it. You only pulled that out of thin air because it's what's keeping your argument alive.

    The thing is, we don't even disagree on the fact that Wilders is a detestable little cretin who hates Islam for no proper reason whtsoever and that he's best off not having any power anywhere. It's just that you completely misplace the origin of this sentiment of his, which is much better placed amongst the ethnic Dutch majority which forms 80% of Holland and at which Wilders's populism is aimed.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  3. #153
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Wink Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    I challenge you to find any other source than Van Leeuwen on the subject.
    I'm the daughter of a Dutch 'pied-noir'. My mother (her family lived for generations in the Dutch- Indies) escaped Indonesia when it became independent after a bloody war in 1949. The story is incredibly similar: the 'cold welcome' after 'repatriation', discrimination, the diaspora, social inferiority, accusations of colonialism. The Dutch pieds-noirs are called Indos. Same place in colonial society as pieds-noir.
    Except that the majority of the Dutch pieds-noir were/are of mixed-blood descent. That made them the more visible in Holland.
    I am interested in comparative history because the huge and growing extremist anti-Muslem movement in Holland is led by an Indo. Some Indos feel that 'the Muslims' kicked them out of their country.

    I wonder if there are indeed millions of us in Europe, postcolonial children
    http://www.topix.com/forum/world/fra...BEA5B4B205A/p2


    I am a Canadian Citizen, and I have held that honour since I was eight years old. As a soldier, I have raised arms to defend Canada, and suffered injury in her service. However, I am still required to provide a list of documents that prove my right to live here, just to get a drivers licence. In this land of ice and snow, I am not white enough to be considered white but still dark enough to be asked where I come from or what my back ground is. I have come to realize that I will never be completely in the “Canadian club”. The reason for that is that I just don’t fit. The only other INDO’s I know, are my two sisters.

    I think that part of this INDO identity issue has its roots in learned behaviour. Over the last generation or two, starting with Dutch Colonial rule, Japanese Occupation, The Bersiap Period and assimilation into different cultures, has made the concept of “eyes open and mouth shut” the rules instead of the exception.

    The time for silence is over.
    http://dutcheastindies.web.id/my-heritage-is-my-right
    And this is not because we shove it all into a dark corner and try and forget about it. You only pulled that out of thin air because it's what's keeping your argument alive.
    In a letter published in NRC Handelsblad last week, 22 prominent writers, historians and lawyers asked the Dutch government to finally recognise the proclamation in 1945 was a legitimate act. "The Indonesian people themselves decided on their independence," they wrote.

    The Dutch foreign ministry, however, immediately responded by saying the independence only became official after sovereignty was handed over. "The actual transfer of sovereignty took place on December 27, 1949 (...). This is an established historical fact that can not be changed 60 years later," a statement issued by the ministry read.

    Not only do the authors of the letter want the Dutch government to retroactively recognise Indonesia’s independence, they say it needs to render account of its armed and political actions between 1945 and 1949. "The lack of full political recognition by the Netherlands is a historic failure we consider unjust towards the people of Indonesia."
    http://www.nrc.nl/international/arti...dependence_day




    Between 1946 and 1949 two military campaigns, euphemistically called `police actions', resulted in the deaths of over 100,000 Indonesians and, according to one Financial Times Service report, 6,000 Dutch soldiers. However, the colonial power found itself politically isolated as well as economically near bankruptcy, and independence was reluctantly conceded in December 1949; a fact that even today causes controversy.

    The period 1945-49 in Dutch colonial history, however, is still highly sensitive. Indeed, this chapter is conspicuous among colonial studies by its absence. Unlike Vietnam, which Hollywood has transformed into an icon of contemporary culture, post-Second World War Indonesia constitutes something of a collective blind-spot in the Dutch psyche. The case of one of the Netherlands' leading historians, the late Jan Romein, is enlightening. His wife, Annie Romein-Verschoor, had grown up in colonial Dutch East Indies. They were both self-confessed Communists. progressive idealists and committed to Indonesian independence. Yet when Jan Romein published his major study of decolonisation, De Eeuw van Azie (The Asian Century) in 1956, Indonesia earned only a superficial mention. Of the 300 pages, twenty-five were on Indonesia, while the bibliography of 267 titles contained only ten relating to it. In 1980 a leading Indonesian historian, Taufik Abdullah, referring to the loud Dutch silence, remarked that international historiography was the monopoly of the conquerors.
    http://www.questia.com/googleScholar...cId=5000418748



    You ask me for sources?
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 01-27-2010 at 02:54.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  4. #154
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    The thing is, we don't even disagree on the fact that Wilders is a detestable little cretin who hates Islam for no proper reason whtsoever and that he's best off not having any power anywhere. It's just that you completely misplace the origin of this sentiment of his, which is much better placed amongst the ethnic Dutch majority which forms 80% of Holland and at which Wilders's populism is aimed.
    Wilders is best kept out of power. (Unless to 'defuse' him by giving him actual responsibilities). Wilders is a fanatic - 'somebody who won't shut up and won't change the subject'.

    I do not necessarily disagree with Wilders' take on Islam. Which I consider a backward, totalitarian ideology, and of which I wish there was none of in Europe.
    I do think there must be a limit to what one says about Muslims. It is simply not true that they are possesed fundamentalist zombies. There are too many hardworking, kind, civilized Muslims /people from Muslim background.

    I do not trace all of Wilders' political ideas, or his meteoric rise, on his personal background alone. Norway has no colonial past (disregarding giving local polar bears a fright), yet it has a vast anti-immigration, anti-Islamic sentiment.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 01-27-2010 at 13:36.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  5. #155
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,407

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    It is simply not true that they are possesed fundamentalist zombies. There are too many hardworking, kind, civilized Muslims /people from Muslim background.
    In fairness, Wilders does not disagree with that statement.

  6. #156
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    9,286

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Did you really need to drag the Dutch Master into this mess?
    Last edited by drone; 01-27-2010 at 04:19.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  7. #157
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,454

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    So far, our respective duelists are keeping within the bounds and targeting the opinions and not the poster. THANKS! I hope and trust this will continue.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  8. #158
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Unlike in France, there is no air of bitterness or well-known problem between the Indo minority and the ethnic Dutch majority.”
    Wasn’t it a Moluccan Commando that took a train in hostage some 35 years ago (1977, and the storming an Embassy), for unresolved problems?
    You are right. I do not rememnber Harkis commando attacking French trains.
    Even if they had good resons to do so.

    Hoops, sorry, all is for the better in Holland...
    Last edited by Brenus; 01-27-2010 at 08:21.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  9. #159
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Red face Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    They were promised a homeland if the fought at our side, but they were betrayed by the crown, deported and put in camps. It isn't really something we want to forget, it is something aren't supposed to know, the queen will never allow it to enter the schoolbooks we need to keep waving flags at queens-day.

    'somebody who won't shut up and won't change the subject'


    Not his fault that is the only thing they want to talk about.

    @Louis ;)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Ah, Harry 'antifada now' van Bommel (socialist party) and Gretta '6 million autographs' Duisenberg (labour party member) are not prosecuted, that puts the prosecution in an even more dire position. Saying that the radical Islam has no place in Europe isn't the same thing as leading a procession with muslims and leftists shouting 'Hamas Hamas all jews on the gas'.

    Last edited by Fragony; 01-27-2010 at 10:22.

  10. #160
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    You accuse me of having a weak argument because I cite my Indo friends and yet you're citing random people on the Internet now?

    Basically that's "my Indo's" against "your Indo's". Who'll win? I asked you for scholarly sources. Van Leeuwen is completely alone in her assertion that Wilders draws from a pied-noir sentiment amonst the Indo community. That doesn't mean she's a pioneer, it means she's just plain wrong.

    Tell me Louis... what exactly does the fact that the Dutch government did not recognize the self-declared date of independence of Indonesia (1945) in favor of its own version (1949, when we admitted we had lost) for decades have to do with the subject at hand? The same goes for the fact that the extremely bloody nature of our attempt to reconquer our colony, as well as the war crimes we committed while doing so, remain largely unknown and untaught amongst the broader populace.

    Because the subject at hand was the supposed denial of the existence of a pied-noir sentiment in our Indo community. What you linked to has to do with Indonesia, yes. But the relation stops there. It's about the grudges and the traumas of Indonesians, not of Indo's. Please, stay on topic, will you?

    Unless you were trying to say that we keep quiet about certain parts of our history as a society as a general point. I'm inclined to agree with you on that. But then, what country doesn't? I can easily think up a couple examples in France, Germany, and the UK. And the U.S., too, for that matter. Even neutral happy hippie weeniestans like Sweden or Finland!

    And when it comes down to it, we're ignoring parts of our history that have little to do with what you assert exists in this country. Holland prefers to ignore its violence in dealing with its colony. It does not ignore a pied-noir complex in one of its communities, which simply does not exist, and for which you have no sources but two random Internet people, one of which is not even from the Netherlands. Meanwhile, every Dutchman is telling you that what you're saying is total news to them and Van Leeuwen is the only person screaming about Wilders being a pied-noir in clogs. I think that says it all, really.

    P.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    You ask me for sources?
    Read on:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    You ask me for sources? I'd rather point to the lack of ones. It is simply not an issue here. Van Leeuwen is alone in claiming these things. Every Indo I've spoken to about the matter (and this is not the first time) tells me that she makes wild conclusions grasped out of nowhere. Here, even this rather mild, if not overtly friendly piece already shows you, in the second to last paragraph, that her conclusions are anything but broadly accepted in the Indo community. I might add that Indo's I know have rejected her claims about being put in the same category with Moroccans and Turks in the '60s and '70s, as well.
    Latent racism
    But within the East Indies community itself, not everyone agrees. Herman Bussemaker, chairman of the Dutch Indies Platform, says he doesn't know anyone who believes Mr Wilders is a hero. On the contrary, many immigrants from the former colony are alarmed by the politician's meteoric rise.

    "They are afraid because the latent racism that is present in Dutch culture is only being reinforced by the actions of Mr Wilders. And most of them aren't white. So they are afraid that his actions will lead to more discrimination towards them as well."

    That there is a trauma still waiting to be addressed after all this time - a trauma forgotten or ignored by most Dutch people - Dr Bussemaker doesn't deny. But that hasn't resulted in any strong right-wing leanings, he says. Rather, the political expressions of those frustrations "are spread from left to right".
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Unlike in France, there is no air of bitterness or well-known problem between the Indo minority and the ethnic Dutch majority.”
    Wasn’t it a Moluccan Commando that took a train in hostage some 35 years ago (1977, and the storming an Embassy), for unresolved problems?
    You are right. I do not rememnber Harkis commando attacking French trains.
    Even if they had good resons to do so.

    Hoops, sorry, all is for the better in Holland...
    Protip: Moluccans =/= Indo's. You are referring to a different minority with a different identity and a different history.
    Last edited by The Wizard; 01-27-2010 at 18:47.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  11. #161
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Holland prefers to ignore its violence in dealing with its colony. It does not ignore a pied-noir complex in one of its communities, which simply does not exist

    Yes this is true. It's a nice collection of syllables Louis, nothing more. The Netherlands has a pretty complex colonial history and you are to accuse us if being ignorant of our past you get a 'hell yeah' from here, but when it comes to this trial and Wilders there is simply no context. It's just not there.

  12. #162
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,812

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ah, Harry 'antifada now' van Bommel (socialist party) and Gretta '6 million autographs' Duisenberg (labour party member) are not prosecuted, that puts the prosecution in an even more dire position. Saying that the radical Islam has no place in Europe isn't the same thing as leading a procession with muslims and leftists shouting 'Hamas Hamas all jews on the gas'.
    Wim Duisenberg was a labour member. Gretta is member of the SP, I believe.

    I can't be sure, but I don't think either of those should be considered anti-semetic...just too stupid to know wich people to avoid being seen with.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 01-27-2010 at 20:39.

  13. #163
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    and opinions that chimes with me:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/do...ing-the-truth/

    Geert Wilders: on trial for telling the truth

    There is nothing hyperbolic in stating that a trial which has just started in Holland will have unparalleled significance for the future of Europe. It is not just about whether our culture will survive, but whether we are even allowed to state the fact that it is being threatened.

    The trial of Geert Wilders has garnered hardly any attention in the mainstream press here. Fortunately the blogosphere can correct some of this.

    Wilders is a Dutch MP and leader of Holland’s fastest-growing party, the Party for Freedom. Just a few years ago he was the sole MP for his party. The latest polls show that his party could win the biggest number of seats of any party in Holland when the voters next go to the polls.

    His stances have clearly chimed with the Dutch people. They include an end to the era of mass immigration, an end to cultural relativism, and an end to the perceived suborning of European values to Islamic ones. For saying this, and more, he has for many years had to live under round-the-clock security protection. Which you would have thought proves the point to some extent.

    Now the latest attempt of the Dutch ruling class to keep Wilders from office has begun. Last week, apparently because of the number of complaints they have received (trial by vote anyone?) the trial of Wilders began.

    The Dutch courts charge that Wilders ‘on multiple occasions, at least once, (each time) in public, orally, in writing or through images, intentionally offended a group of people, i.e. Muslims, based on their religion’.

    I’m sorry? Whoa there, just a minute. The man’s on trial because he ‘offended a group of people’? I get offended by all sorts of people. I get offended by very fat people. I get offended by very thick people. I get offended by very sensitive people. I get offended by the crazy car-crash of vowels in Dutch verbs. But I don’t try to press charges.

    Yet, crazily, this is exactly what is going on now in a Dutch courtroom. If found guilty of this Alice-in-Wonderland accusation of ‘offending a group of people’, Wilders faces up to two years in prison.

    If anyone doubts the surreal nature of the proceedings now going on they should simply look through the summons which is available in an English translation here. It shows that Wilders is on trial for his film Fitna. And for various things he has said in articles and interviews in the Dutch press.

    Now some people liked Fitna and some people didn’t. That’s a matter of choice. But by any previous interpretation it is not the job of courts in democratic countries to become film-critics. In fact it would create a very bad precedent. I thought the latest Alec Baldwin film stank. But I don’t think (though the temptation lingers) Baldwin should go to prison for it.

    I’ve seen Fitna a number of times. Recently in the House of Lords, at a meeting Wilders couldn’t attend because our then Home Secretary temporarily decided he shouldn’t even come into this country. And I’ve just watched it again. And you can do so, too. It keeps getting pirated on YouTube but I think this is a good link here.

    Parts of Fitna – which is a compilation of documentary footage – are very disturbing. And very offensive indeed. The clips of Muslim clerics calling for the murder of infidels. Very offensive. The clips of Muslims holding banners saying ‘God bless Hitler’. Very offensive. The clip of a three-year-old Muslim girl indoctrinated and brain-washed to describe Jews as ‘Apes and Pigs’. Very offensive. The passage of the Koran, Surah 47, verse 4: ‘Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them.’ Very offensive.

    Just to confirm – I find all these things very offensive. But Wilders didn’t say them. He is being tried for pointing out the fact that some – in some cases many – Muslims do. If there are to be prosecutions they should be of the clerics and leaders who advocate this nightmarish version of Islam. But not of Wilders.

    There are quotes from Wilders in the summons, though. It states for instance that he has said, and he has (I love the detective-work the court implies when citing op-eds from national newspapers): ‘Those Moroccan boys are really violent. They beat up people because of their sexual orientation. I have never used violence.’ This is true. As a number of gay Dutch men and women can attest, Muslim youths are behind a rise in homophobic attacks in what used to be the most gay-friendly country in the world. Bruce Bawer and others have written about this at length. It is very disturbing. It is also a fact. There is no sanity at all in a court trying a man for saying something true.

    Wilders is also being tried for saying things which some Muslims deem to be rude about the Koran. Another dangerous precedent. Will the Dutch courts now come after Ricky Gervais for the rude things he says about the Bible in his show Animals (on sale in Holland)? Why the special laws for hurt Muslim feelings? Just wait till the others get on the band-wagon! There won’t be room in the courts to prosecute the murderers and muggers. They’ll be too full up with the religious. Dutch Calvinist pastors madly petitioning for the extradition of Billy Connolly.

    The whole thing is so farcical that it would be funny. If it weren’t for the fact that it is real. The most popular elected politician in Holland is on trial for saying things which the Dutch people are clearly, in large part, in agreement with. Things which, even if you don’t agree with them, must be able to be said.

    Whichever way the verdict goes, it can’t do anything but good for Wilders’s poll ratings. But it is a terrible day for democracy. A political class so intent on criminalising the opinions of its own people cannot last very much longer.

    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  14. #164
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Wim Duisenberg was a labour member. Gretta is member of the SP, I believe.

    I can't be sure, but I don't think either of those should be considered anti-semetic...just too stupid to know wich people to avoid being seen with.
    Oh believe me, her dad was my grandma's second husband I know Gretta Duisenberg alright.

  15. #165
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    They include an end to the era of mass immigration, an end to cultural relativism, and an end to the perceived suborning of European values to Islamic ones.


    European values do not coincide with wanting to ban books.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  16. #166
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post


    European values do not coincide with wanting to ban books.
    But that is just sophism

  17. #167
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    5,352

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    And what exactly is wrong with sophism?

    Wilders says he wants to protect "Freedom". You do not protect freedom by banning books.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  18. #168
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Antioch
    Posts
    2,267

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Hax, you don't understand, if you disagree with banning books you're a godless, freedom hating commie. Paradoxal, isn't it?
    "When the candles are out all women are fair."
    -Plutarch, Coniugia Praecepta 46

  19. #169
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Reminds me of the Indiana Jones, Last Crusade.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMeesE4Nlhg
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  20. #170
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    And what exactly is wrong with sophism?
    well sophism is only about winning an argument, whatever that argument might be. Sophists don't care, it's a sport. They were bashed for that in the past, for having a complete lack of morality.
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-28-2010 at 14:59.

  21. #171
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    I agree, reminds me of the PVV
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  22. #172
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    I agree, reminds me of the PVV
    Really, how

  23. #173
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Ah luigi, I got another thing for you to chew on, the PVV isn't really extreme right but new-right radical. A scientific study from of oh who gives a crap. One of many.

  24. #174
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ah luigi, I got another thing for you to chew on, the PVV isn't really extreme right but new-right radical. A scientific study from of oh who gives a crap. One of many.
    Of course the PVV isn't really extreme right. The PVV is a single-issue party, and this issue is 'Islam'. This is, to my knowledge, unique in Europe. Extreme right parties are anti-immigrant, the PVV is not. It is solely anti-Islam. Of course, considering that all the members of this party are mixed-race Indo immigrants, this should come as no surprise.


    And gives us that link! I am already looking forward to it being rubbished by the claim that 'some of my best friends are radical and they don't vote Wilders'.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  25. #175
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Antioch
    Posts
    2,267

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post

    And gives us that link! I am already looking forward to it being rubbished by the claim that 'some of my best friends are radical and they don't vote Wilders'.
    Radical doesn't automatically say Right Wing radical, also, neonazis don't like Wilders either, because Wilders is a zionist, which makes left-right in the Netherlands even more complicated.

    Wilders is a populist and an opportunist, not left or right.
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 01-28-2010 at 16:31.
    "When the candles are out all women are fair."
    -Plutarch, Coniugia Praecepta 46

  26. #176
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    The PVV is a single-issue party, and this issue is 'Islam'.
    Not really, the PVV is just the only one that isn't.

  27. #177
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Of course the PVV isn't really extreme right. The PVV is a single-issue party, and this issue is 'Islam'. This is, to my knowledge, unique in Europe. Extreme right parties are anti-immigrant, the PVV is not. It is solely anti-Islam. Of course, considering that all the members of this party are mixed-race Indo immigrants, this should come as no surprise.
    Patently untrue, but you seem to be hell-bent on ignoring that. As an aside, the party is generally anti-immigrant. You should hear these clowns talk about Antillians. Skullheadhq has the gist of the matter, really.
    Last edited by The Wizard; 01-28-2010 at 17:05.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  28. #178
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Here's teh link in English.
    Wilders' party is 'new radical right'

    Thursday 28 January 2010
    Geert Wilders' political movement PVV is not an extreme right wing party but contains some radical right wing elements, according to a report into radicalisation in the Netherlands by Tilburg University research group IVA.
    PVV statements on 'islamisation' and non-western immigrants appear to be discriminatory and the party organisation is authoritarian rather than democratic, the researchers say.
    The researchers, who were looking into polarisation and radicalism across the Netherlands, describe the PVV as 'new radical right', a party with a national democratic ideology but without extreme right wing roots. In particular, the party's pro-Israel stance shows it is not neo Nazi, the report states.
    Nevertheless, the PVV has a preference for 'the familiar' and turns against things which are 'foreign' and its political opponents, the report said. This, coupled with an authoritarian tendency show it leans towards a national democratic ideology. And on the internet, for example, the party is a magnet for extreme views, the researchers point out.

    Scandalous

    Wilders told news agency ANP the report is 'scandalous' - in particular the link between defending the national interest and the radical right. And he attacked the decision to publish it now, just as he is on trial for discrimination and inciting hatred.
    An earlier version of the report, leaked to the Volkskrant in November, said Wilders' party is an extreme right wing grouping and a threat to social cohesion and democracy. The paper claimed at the time the researchers were under pressure to water down the conclusions because of their political sensitivity.
    Home affairs minister Guus ter Horst, who commissioned the research, has denied exerting any influence on the report.



    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive..._radical_r.php
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    Patently untrue, but you seem to be hell-bent on ignoring that. As an aside, the party is generally anti-immigrant. You should hear these clowns talk about Antillians. Skullheadhq has the gist of the matter, really.
    No, I am afraid I am exactly right again. All of the members of the PVV are of mixed-race immigrant ancestry.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  29. #179
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    5,352

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    well sophism is only about winning an argument, whatever that argument might be. Sophists don't care, it's a sport. They were bashed for that in the past, for having a complete lack of morality.
    Acknowleding that there is no ultimate truth does not equal immorality.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  30. #180
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,348

    Default Re: The Geert Wilders trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    No, I am afraid I am exactly right again. All of the members of the PVV are of mixed-race immigrant ancestry.
    You are right... considering there's only one member Which, of course, is a technicality and by no means reflects the way the party makes policy. Its MPs may not be members (which, I might add, is very worrying) but I sincerely doubt they don't formulate PVV positions. Besides that, even if Wilders made all policy alone, Saddam-style, then he still doesn't make the least attempt to rein in his lackeys when they bash on other minorities in this country. Which once again brings me back to my point, namely that this party is anti-immigrant in general. And weakens yours, namely that it is strongly informed by Wilders's half-Indo background.
    Last edited by The Wizard; 01-28-2010 at 18:04.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO