Stainless Steel 6.2 Hotseat - Dogs of War (completed, winner Nightbringer)

[TheFlax]

I think this is a great idea - would we be able to somehow work the college of cardinals into this? Then there would be an in-game incentive to get Priests levelled-up to Cardinal status.

I must confess to a vested interest in that as I have two Cardinals at present, one more than anyone else.

This should be possible, but I'll have to think on it a bit before I have a proposal. On thing I wanted to do was clearly indicate the Pope's relationship with each player controlled catholic factions in each of my posts, so everyone know just about where everybody stands.

[_Tristan_]

Hi, guys... I'll be joining as the Moors as soon as I can get the complete install rolling...

DL'ing now...

I've already read through the Council threads and OOC threads...

It feels strange stepping into Ramses' shoes... Though I'm not worried about the state the Kingdom might be in (knowing his style of play...)

Glad to play with you all, newer and older players...

As soon as I've taken stock of my surroundings, you can expect the Moorish diplomat to make an appearance in the Council

[SilverShield]

Although I am just a no forum prestige having 35 post guy I d like to welcome both of you!
Special “Hola/ سلام“ goes out to TdC – my new neighbour in the south. You will like the state of your empire. (Thanks to Merlox… otherwise the Moors would be in serious trouble now but whatever… spilled milk and such…)

In general the idea of the Papal States being human ruled isnt bad though I am not sure about what the actual consequences should be… just roleplayingwise or will there be definite consequences in the game?

Concerning the boat thing…either way is fine with me.

[The Lemongate]

I'm happy with the idea of a player Rp'ing the Pope but it'd be better in my view to stick to as many of the in-game mechanics as possible.

For example there is a pretty good in-game mechanic for excommunication and Flax could allow that to influence his RP rather than the other way around.

It would be weird if someone were excommunicated by the in-game pope (with all the happiness penalties etc. that go with it) but they were also Flax's best buddy from a RP perspective.

Presumably the usual route of bribing the pope to get into favour would still be an option, and Flax would control his end of the necessary in-game diplomacy, so that would work well I think.

Ditto the College of Cardinals - I would like to see Flax's attitudes towards factions at least partly guided by their success at spreading catholicism, a mechanic which is nicely captured in the game by the college of cardinals. If a player spends big on priests and spends time making sure they convert a lot of heathens he should be rewarded with good papal relations, all other things being equal.

It's different for crusades I think - the in-game crusade mechanic is so overpowered and open to abuse that we have rightly banned its use in-game.

So I would like to see Crusades entirely RP'd - with the proviso that if Flax is RP'ing consistently he wouldn't be backing any crusades initiated by factions with low papal standing.

With regard to attacking ships in-dock - the AI doesn't do it so I don't think we should be allowed to. I'm pretty sure it's a bug not a feature, given the slightly weird way you have to go about it (selecting unit cards instead of the fleet on the campaign-map).

Please see the latest changes to the Dogs of War hotseat. Mainly our new Moorish player - Tristan de Castelreng and the addition of a Papal player, TheFlax.

I also would like to hear everyone's idea on the ability for boats to attack dock boats. Some say it's a cheat, some say it's a feature. Should we allow it?

And I've proposed that TheFlax, playing the Pope, be allowed to, through RP, excommunicate factions and call for crusades, etc. I'd like to hear your opinion on these features.

If anything seem too out of place that you don't recognise the game you joined, if you feel cheated or if there is any concern, please speak out, either in the thread or PM me. I will be glad to try to make everyone happy. We agreed on the game's rules at the start and I won't change them if some players majorly disagree or feel I am being unfair towards them.

Basically, all I want is for more options to RP and more players to participate and for everyone to have FUN!!!


Cheers!


The Lemongate

Just quoting phonics' PM so everyone can read it here.

Basically, we have two choices. One is ignoring in-game papal status/excoms etc (though of course there are effects in game a player has to deal with) and basing such decisions only on RP. This gives the Papal faction a lot of power through RP as he can call down catholic princes to stop fighting each others, etc. Or, as phonics says, Flax roleplays whatever the AI chooses in terms of papal standing, excoms, etc. I sorta prefer it if the Papal player has a stronger impact on the game, but both ways are valid.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I am still here, just have had a lot on my plate lately.

[TheFlax]

I am a bit weary of roleplaying a rationalization of the randomness that is the Total War AI, but I could take it as a challenge. For sure, I wanted to do something with the in game college of cardinals, but the papal favor thing in game sometimes goes high or low for odd reasons. Although, I do not know if that has been fixed or at least is clearer in SS.

[phonicsmonkey]

I should have also said that, as usual, I will go with the majority opinion.

[SilverShield]

i dont know... whats the deal with a pope that is not acting according to the in game ongoings? feels like an antipope somewhere in Avignon to me… also how should an off game decision be enforced in game? exposing myself as a follower of Morgenthau but as long as the Pope aint got the military power to force me to obey i will not do. so unless the Franks put on their blue helmets and declare them self Papal police…
i understand the desire to reflect the importance of the Pope but the fact is that he always depended on the physical military strength of others to wield power and in fact had no power himself – at least not over kings.
Henry IV. walked to Canossa only once… and just because of domestic politics aka as plotting. the method when being banned a second time is much more supportable…

[The Lemongate]

i dont know... whats the deal with a pope that is not acting according to the in game ongoings? feels like an antipope somewhere in Avignon to me…

Well it's RP. In the same way that we ignore the in-game calls for crusades, but can still wage one through diplomacy/RP.

also how should an off game decision be enforced in game? exposing myself as a follower of Morgenthau but as long as the Pope aint got the military power to force me to obey i will not do. so unless the Franks put on their blue helmets and declare them self Papal police…

Indeed, then again, the English, the Germans, the Spanish or about anyone else can invoke Papal decisions to invade their neigbors or mount a coalition against he heretics. And it would actually make more sense then for exemple the current high quantity of excoms which are pretty random.

But I'm not forcing the decision. If ppl prefer to reflect the in-game pop-o-meter with all its randomness then that's your choice.

[SilverShield]

well a more consistent Papal behaviour wont hurt. and as long as the consequences are simply roleplayingwise like legitimizing this or that action (e.g. fighting against kings that have been excommunicated) im fine with it. im just saying that i wont follow some Papal roleplaying decision unless they are literally enforced… (which will happen pretty soon i guess… aaatteeeeention! blue helmets on!!)

[_Tristan_]

Could someone point me to an alternative link to the SS 6.2 patch ?

The rapidshare servers won't let me Dl it and without it I can't finish my install...

Thanks in advance...

[The Lemongate]

Here it is on filefront.

[The Lemongate]

Sounds good. A few specifics notes/concerns:

-Please let Tristan know that the only reason I am at war with the Moors is because Tripoli rebelled to him. I have tried to contact Ramses before, and have sent an in-game message as well that Tristan should receive, but I want to make sure I don't get attacked due to a player-switch misunderstanding.

-I don't really care either way about the navy/port problem, but my opinion is that it is not a cheat or exploit, as it is realistically possible.

-If TheFlax is going to play the Pope and be able to commission his own excommunications and crusades and such, then there needs to be some sort of balance to keep him from being overpowered. At this stage in the game, he could very easily excommunicate Sicily and I for nothing at all, ask the rest of you to attack me, and then demand that the land be released to him. Is he allowed to expand his territory?

Posting this here so that it enters the general discussion.


Of course Flax is allowed to expand his territory, but the main point of adding the Papal States is role-playing a more "coherent" Pope. We can either have him try to make sense of the game's clueless Papal AI, or let him make the decisions. TheFlax is a longtime player at the .org and very respected for his great RP skills. I would see no reason for him to suddenly excommunicate a player just to grab his lands. It simply is not something he'd do. However, I do see him becoming a pain for a catholic ruler who would have in his mind to persistently bring war to other christian factions, etc.

[phonicsmonkey]

TheFlax is a longtime player at the .org and very respected for his great RP skills. I would see no reason for him to suddenly excommunicate a player just to grab his lands. It simply is not something he'd do.

I second that - this is not something that worries me at all.

Just to expand on the reasoning behind my suggestion that the Pope's attitudes are still framed by the in-game Pope-ometer: One benefit is it would allow some transparency to the other players as to their standing with him. So it shouldn't come as a big surprise if the Pope suddenly excommunicates them.

In short, it acts as both a check on what the Pope can reasonably do, and also as a guide for the other players and a means to gauge their success or otherwise at keeping in his good standing.

[The Lemongate]

Except of course that his Hatness' AI has been know to excom for rather random reasons and that it is very hard to gauge why he suddenly likes you or hates you. Which is what having a player at the helm could help prevent. TheFlax could actually post his own, personal Pop-o-meter in the forums. A rathing from 1 to 10 of each faction whenever he feels there's a change in relationship. That would make it clear to everybody.

[phonicsmonkey]

TheFlax could actually post his own, personal Pop-o-meter in the forums. A rathing from 1 to 10 of each faction whenever he feels there's a change in relationship. That would make it clear to everybody.

I like that idea

The only drawback being that it will not be able to prevent you from being excommunicated anyway by the in-game mechanic.

Look, everyone knows that it's possible to exploit and manipulate papal relations with simple monetary gifts and offers of tribute. This can be done in a way which is almost costless - of course it's against the spirit of the rules to do that in a hotseat game but maybe we could use the exploit to make sure that in-game relations are at least no worse than the level required to stay communicated (is that a word?)

And then Flax can RP away to his heart's content without there being an obvious conflict between his actions and the in-game popeometer.

PS Welcome to the game Tristan!

Neighbours of the Moors beware!

[SilverShield]

[M]aybe we could use the exploit to make sure that in-game relations are at least no worse than the level required to stay communicated[...]

that sounds reasonable. if the in game situation is not largely different from what the role play Pope thinks about one faction it would actually make sense.
(though i got no clue how to manipulate the Papal standing as everyone can check on since im still excommunicated even after the death of my king.)

but what about if u got a high in game papal standing but the role play pope just excommunicated u...wouldnt make sense again then. dont think one can manipulate the papal standing in game the other way round...

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Hi guys...... I am going to have to bow out of this.


My life has been getting more and more cluttered these days, and I just don't have time for this any more. I am very sorry for running like this, but I need to cut some of the time I spend on the org down, so I can get back up to speed with my life.


again, I am sorry for any inconvenience I have caused.

[The Lemongate]

that sounds reasonable. if the in game situation is not largely different from what the role play Pope thinks about one faction it would actually make sense.
(though i got no clue how to manipulate the Papal standing as everyone can check on since im still excommunicated even after the death of my king.)

but what about if u got a high in game papal standing but the role play pope just excommunicated u...wouldnt make sense again then. dont think one can manipulate the papal standing in game the other way round...

The point would be to completely ignore the in-game papal standing but try to maintain decent relations so that there are no technical effects (i.e. in-game excom). The entire papal facet of the game would be handled through diplomacy/role-play.

Hi guys...... I am going to have to bow out of this.


My life has been getting more and more cluttered these days, and I just don't have time for this any more. I am very sorry for running like this, but I need to cut some of the time I spend on the org down, so I can get back up to speed with my life.


again, I am sorry for any inconvenience I have caused.

I'm sorry to see you leave. Things were getting pretty interesting in the West and I would've loved to see how it would have turned out! But I'm sure you're making the right decision for yourself and I'm sur everyone here understands and supports you completely. Good luck and I hope to see you on the org now and then, and maybe in some future game!

[Asinus Asini]

Are we going to replace the Normans by a player, or revert it back to AI?

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Hopefully ion the future I can expand back into hot seats. But for now I think I may have to downsize. I am supposed to be helping with WoLT, and I find I don't really have the energy to keep up with this. I am sorry lemon things were just starting to get interesting. I hope I do have a chance to play another game with all of you!

[The Lemongate]

Are we going to replace the Normans by a player, or revert it back to AI?

Someone will have to sub them for now. And I'm hoping we'll be able to find a player soon. They can't be really left to the AI or I would destroy them within the next 3 turns.

[_Tristan_]

Btw, I'm currently having some RL-related problems that keep me away from my PC... I've managed to install SS (all that remains is the SS 6.2 hotseat patch) and play the save...

I'll try to manage to play it this evening (GMT +1) and post it afterwards...

If you don't see a post advertising the new save by tomorrow morning, feel free to skip my first turn or sub it (maybe to Zim...if he's willing...)

[SilverShield]

The point would be to completely ignore the in-game papal standing but try to maintain decent relations so that there are no technical effects (i.e. in-game excom). The entire papal facet of the game would be handled through diplomacy/role-play.

well its kinda impossible to maintain decent relations as this simply would limit options too much.
furthermore…getting excommunicated in game just happens too easily like even when u are just fighting back aggression. thus there is a pretty huge chance of being excommunicated..
so unless the in game pope when human ruled aint got the power to manually excommunicate or reconcile there will always be a kind of inconsistency when not role playing the in game pope as the in game pope mechanism simply is very likely to cause excommunications.

but since there are no crusades allowed even being excommunicated doesnt really effect one in game hence in the end the inconsistency of in game and off game papal ongoing would more or less only be atmospherewise. it just wont feel right if one has good or bad relations with the in game but not the off game pope or one gets excommunicated in game but not off game or vice versa

however… since no pope whether in or off game will prevent me from doing what i think is the best for my kingdom unless his decision is backed up by force. (a view which as i pointed out earlier is absolutely fine with medieval reality… referring to Morgenthau and the meaning of power here again…) it simply wont really matter whether im more or less ignoring the in game or off game popes decisions… and given that the effects lastly only would be atmospheric im fine with whatever u guys decide.


seeing Cultured leave is bad news. humanwise first of all. and secondly i really dont wanna see the Normans going computer ruled. hopefully there is still someone out there who is willing to take over as there really should be a human player to replace Cultured otherwise England will be overrun. so far im sure someone from the east is willing to take over for Cultured… ?

[phonicsmonkey]

well its kinda impossible to maintain decent relations as this simply would limit options too much.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this but what I am suggesting is that we simply each keep a diplomat at Rome and offer tribute deals of 50fl per turn to the Pope for some small number of turns. If you keep doing this over and over, turn by turn, increasing the number of turns the deal stands for, the Pope-o-meter shoots up. There's an inbuilt limit when the Pope is AI because they will not accept overly-generous deals, but if Flax is playing the faction he can simply accept all the deals at the beginning of each turn, thus maintaining good-enough ingame relations to avoid in-game excommunication, at little cost to us and little benefit to him.

…getting excommunicated in game just happens too easily like even when u are just fighting back aggression.

This is not my experience. If you stay in your own lands you can defend yourself easily enough without the Pope getting shirty with you. It's only if you attack other catholic factions in their lands that you suffer a penalty in papal relations, right?

I was at war with Poland in this game and got a cooling-off order from the Pope. In order to avoid excommunication I waited it out before invading again to finish them off, but it did not stop me in the meantime from wiping out any armies they sent across the borders at me.

…being excommunicated doesnt really effect one in game

I haven't allowed myself to be excommunicated in any campaign since way back when, so I'm a bit rusty on this, but doesn't getting excommunicated mean you suffer a happiness penalty across all your settlements, which means lower taxes and bigger garrisons? Could be pretty costly in a hotseat context where you are trying to keep pace with everyone else from an economic perspective..

[SilverShield]

thats the point actually. when talking about limited options im talking about basically not being able/ allowed to strike preemptively and invade the lands of another catholic faction even if they attacked you in order to maintain descent relations.
so i ll always be running the very likely risk of being excommunicated. which as i mentioned is fine with me. i ve been excommunicated for three turns now and its not that bad really.

to be honest i kinda lost track of what we actually overall are talking about…? ...kinda feeling like in debating class back then in second semester… lol professor Townsend are u around here sir?

[Quirl]

Hello everyone! Hopefully, I'll be taking over the position of England Novgorod soon. I'll need to get all the SS files installed (my current version doesn't seem compatible with the saves in this game), but I'll let you know when I do.

I love this human-controlled Pope idea and am definitely behind whatever you guys decide concerning it. Hope to play soon!

EDIT:
Well, that was easy. I just needed to update my Kingdoms.

I'm officially in your game. :D

[Asinus Asini]

Personally, I am used to games where we accept the game mechanics and try to forge our rp around what happens in the game. I don't mind ignoring the excommunication or short-circuit it, but I would enjoy more not to do so.

Maybe we'll brush this aside since I think many people won't like that, but I would like it better if we accept the Pope excommunication as we did it since the start of the game, and to agree from now on to not give very low amounts of gold in tribute to the Pope as this is kind of an exploit (gifts would be accepted but like only those above 1000 florins or those not in tributes).

[_Tristan_]

I'm finally able to play the save... Sorry to have kept you waiting... getting on it right now...

[_Tristan_]

I've noticed some issues with the save... Some of my generals have rather strange retinue (Holy Shroud, Emir of Vilnius or even Patriarch of the Orthodox Church !! on a General to boot !!) and I got a CTD when I tried changing my capital... It must come from my install and particularly the Hotseat 6.2 patch as there was no automatic install...

I've installed SS 6.0 then the 6.1 patch and I've copied the content of the 6.2 patch by copying and pasting it in the mod folder replacing each file that was already in existence in the folder

Did I do it right ?