Hell and Christianity

[CountArach]

Another way to tell whether capitalism or Calvinism caused each other is to look at the states which are the exception to the rule. So take Scotland for example - a more backward country than Puritan England or the Netherlands, yet despite becoming fiercely Calvinist, it remained backward and feudal until the 18th century, by which time deism was in all likelihood as prominent amongst the enlightenment figures (Adam Smith, Hume etc) as Calvinism (though they couldn't say it out loud or they got executed). Anyway, if Calvinism really caused the development of capitalism, this should as a rule have happened in Scotland as well, but it didn't.

Weber believed that there were multiple paths to Capitalism, and that Calvinism was just one of them.

edit: before anyone gets confused, marxist means a logical development here not politics.

A marxist view means something different for historians, has nothing to do with economic theory, it's assuming a certain chain of events, a natural progression.

Nah, that's a Modernist historian. Marxist historians are still Marxists (Look at Hobsbawm, etc) in the economic sense and still look for that guiding hand of economic development, but they are by their very nature also Modernist. Modernist historians look for an overarching grand narrative to history and look at the inter-linking developments between two points (a diachronic analysis). This is as opposed to post-modern historians who would rather perform a synchronic analysis of a society, which is just a snapshot of a society at one given moment.

[Fragony]

Marxist historians are still Marxists (Look at Hobsbawm, etc) in the economic sense and still look for that guiding hand of economic development, but they are by their very nature also Modernist.

It's a relatively new approach to include social/economic factors to the greater picture, I would say it emerged at the same time. Ok, there is a difference between a Marxist historian and a marxist approach.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My cliif notes.

-There is an ongoing war between God and Satan for the souls on Earth
-Temptation and leading some of the flock astray is Satans way of waging this war.
-Let me make this clear there is a hell because there is evil but it is not because God is evil
-It is because Satan is, God is merciful and just and all we have to do is accept him and follow the teachings of jesus Christ.

That is what I beilive and I know it's not popular here.

The problem I have with foregrounding Satan and God in this (very Calvinistic) way is that it removes too much responsibility for our own actions, it allows you to move that responsibility to an external power and absolve yourself.

I agree 100% that it's about whether or not you accept Jesus, and not if you're good or evil. But some people say God is evil if such a thing as hell exists.

I am just curious as to what the Christians (or others) on this board say, since there is such a wide range of views. The views could range from anything to saying that hell doesn't exist, or that hell is just symbolic for separation from God, or that people simply deserve to go to hell.

I think that seperating "being evil" from "rejecting God" is strange. It implies there is a seperation between Good and God.

True, but according to most protestants God's salvation is still conditional upon accepting Christ by your death. The idea of hell in which I was speaking of is not so much purgatory as it is another chance to make peace with god. Would God truly allow something as simple as death to come in the way of an eventual reunion with one of his children? Remember the prodigal son, it is not the saved who god reaches out to as much as those who can be brought back into the flock. The existence of a permanent hell contradicts to many things to hold any weight.

You just described Catholic Purgatory. The prodigal Son goes back to his Father, the Father waits but does not drag his son home. What kind of God (Father) beats his children and demands they love him?

Hell is fundamentally a seperation from God, such a seperation must be chosen, not enforced.

[Fragony]

Hell is fundamentally a seperation from God, such a seperation must be chosen, not enforced.

Then I must be in hell already and it's pretty fun really.

[Ironside]

I think that seperating "being evil" from "rejecting God" is strange. It implies there is a seperation between Good and God.

I'll give you a hint: Godfearing is related to fear (the loving kind of fear but still). Mass punishment of a people because you do as He says, because you reject what He says, is good? The Old testament God is not good.

A less personal note, wouldn't Good=God mean that no human can be good without knowing God?

[The Wizard]

A friend of mine once posited an interesting question: is the God of Jesus, all-forgiving as he is, just? Do you want to forgive someone like Stalin, Hitler or Mao? Do they belong in Heaven, do they deserve compassion?

He was of the opinion that such a God was just. I was not. Adonai, "the God of the Old Testament", is a just god. Harsh, but just. There must be consequences for your actions. Truly evil men deserve to burn.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it's good people are discussing the Jewish beliefs, since they could be the key to understanding what exactly Jesus meant when he commented on heaven/hell. Also, I should point out, the Christian view is not as clear cut as people here seem to believe it is (in that they think you either go straight to heaven/hell, and that's you). Both the Orthodox Churches and Calvinists believe in two seperate holding places for the dead, until heaven/hell are created at judgment day. The intermediate place for the saints is usually called 'Abraham's Bosom', whereas heaven is a new perfect earth (not a place of floating spirits in the clouds or anything like that). Other groups like the Seventh-Day Adventists believe in the idea of 'soul sleeping' until the final judgment, and then the saints are resurrected to live on the new earth, while 'hell' is the name for the conditions on earth which the reprobate will live in before being they are completely destroyed (the second death). (and I just pointed out the Adventist example because even though they are a small church, they really emphasise the Jewish roots of the Christian beliefs).

I think that seperating "being evil" from "rejecting God" is strange. It implies there is a seperation between Good and God.

I meant it's not about people being good as if that it's one of their own inherent qualities. I just meant that the order of things is not 'you are good = you follow Jesus', it's a case of 'you follow Jesus = you willl do good'.

Also, do you believe that people must attribute any good they do to God? I would say that, but it's not what I would have guessed you believe given your stance on free will.

[Strike For The South]

The problem I have with foregrounding Satan and God in this (very Calvinistic) way is that it removes too much responsibility for our own actions, it allows you to move that responsibility to an external power and absolve yourself.
.

How so? To truly be one of the flock you must follow these teachings as well. We are still held accountable here on earth and to God all sins are equaled because in the next life they are of no consequnece if you accepted Jesus and lived up to his teachings to the best of your abilities.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'll give you a hint: Godfearing is related to fear (the loving kind of fear but still). Mass punishment of a people because you do as He says, because you reject what He says, is good? The Old testament God is not good.

A less personal note, wouldn't Good=God mean that no human can be good without knowing God?

Two interesting points. The first is dealt with early in Genesis 18 when God promises he will not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if ten righteous men are found within the cities and the plane, the cities and the plane are destroyed.

The second point has two answers, either those without God lack goodness, or no one is truly without God. Anecdotal evidence would point to the latter, that even those who wholly reject God are not wholly apart from him in this life.

A friend of mine once posited an interesting question: is the God of Jesus, all-forgiving as he is, just? Do you want to forgive someone like Stalin, Hitler or Mao? Do they belong in Heaven, do they deserve compassion?

He was of the opinion that such a God was just. I was not. Adonai, "the God of the Old Testament", is a just god. Harsh, but just. There must be consequences for your actions. Truly evil men deserve to burn.

Well, in order to be forgiven you have to be truly penitent, and not merely afraid for your soul. Imagine the amount of penitence appropriate to Hitler's, Stalin's, or Mao's crimes. Imagine the amount of mental suffering that would produce.

How so? To truly be one of the flock you must follow these teachings as well. We are still held accountable here on earth and to God all sins are equaled because in the next life they are of no consequnece if you accepted Jesus and lived up to his teachings to the best of your abilities.

Quite so, but the way you put it the first time makes hummanity sound like a collection of pieces on a draughts board.

[Ironside]

Two interesting points. The first is dealt with early in Genesis 18 when God promises he will not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if ten righteous men are found within the cities and the plane, the cities and the plane are destroyed.

I was refering to the power trip God does in Exodus, when hardening the heart of Pharaoh, to then punish the Egyptians for that Pharaoh refuses to let the Israelis go. God finally culminates this by sending down the destroyer (nice name, a demon?) and kills all first born sons of Egypt, as he previously predicted...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I was refering to the power trip God does in Exodus, when hardening the heart of Pharaoh, to then punish the Egyptians for that Pharaoh refuses to let the Israelis go. God finally culminates this by sending down the destroyer (nice name, a demon?) and kills all first born sons of Egypt, as he previously predicted...

You're in danger of being openly offensive now. I'm sorry, a "demon"? I don't have Exodus here with me, but the point is made in Genesis. God is just, so if he does something it is just even if it doesn't look it. That is the narrative of the Bible.

[Fragony]

"so basically if you're not working as hard as you can and using everything God gave you, then you are being slothful, and that is a sin and a sign of reprobation."

SHame on me for not reading earlier. The early protestants had a mission to reinstall gods kingdom on earth, and not working the fields as hard as you can was a sin because they had to treat the world as best as they could. Weber didn't get that and cherry-picked from some quotes, it's pretty easy to go in with a stretched leg, the harships of labour weren't actually underapreciated.

[Strike For The South]

Quite so, but the way you put it the first time makes hummanity sound like a collection of pieces on a CHECKER board.

It's kinda of like that...

[CountArach]

It's a relatively new approach to include social/economic factors to the greater picture, I would say it emerged at the same time. Ok, there is a difference between a Marxist historian and a marxist approach.

Modernist historiography goes all the way back to von Ranke who wanted to find evidence of the work of God in history and saw something of a guiding hand. Marxists simply look at one approach to this 'guiding hand' (economic determinism) and say that it is the sole driving force of history.

[Fragony]

Sorry but you are wrong, determinism is indeed the better word, it assumes a certain outcome. Can be about anything.

[CountArach]

Sorry but you are wrong, determinism is indeed the better word, it assumes a certain outcome. Can be about anything.

We don't disagree. I'm just saying that Marxism has its own specific language for it.

[Ronin]

George Carlin made some extremely point on this discussion.
Carlin On religion

The most revelant part to this discussion:

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!

[Skullheadhq]

If hell exists, where would it be?

[Aemilius Paulus]

If hell exists, where would it be?

Good Lord, as if religion was not fantasy-like enough, you have to ask this? If the existence of God was to proven, heaven or hell would be a very minor thing to explain. Supposing God plays by the rules, if he is that proverbial 'watchmaker', hell or heaven could be in another dimension. But given all the other irrational evidence, I would say this is the least of our troubles...

[The Wizard]

Your talk of Elohim punishing the Egyptians has made me need to listen to Metallica...

Well, in order to be forgiven you have to be truly penitent, and not merely afraid for your soul. Imagine the amount of penitence appropriate to Hitler's, Stalin's, or Mao's crimes. Imagine the amount of mental suffering that would produce.

My friend posited that the God of Jesus is all-forgiving, regardless of what you've done.

If hell exists, where would it be?

Ohio

[Hax]

I agree with Fragony.





There, it's out.

[Fragony]

I agree with Fragony.





There, it's out.

don't fight it

[drone]

Ohio

Everybody knows it's Detroit.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Everybody knows it's Detroit.

Which calls for the classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSp2KGMQEk8

The first time I saw it, in the movie, I wet myself laughing.

[Strike For The South]

Ohio

a man after my own heart

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's kinda of like that...

Says your religion, but not mine. Two factors mitigate against the view, in my opinion.

1. It does not glorify God, because it reduces him from King and Father to merely Tyrant, making him merely the Devils opposite.

2. It harms hummanity and leads to Sin by removing the feeling of personal responsibility.

Your talk of Elohim punishing the Egyptians has made me need to listen to Metallica...

My friend posited that the God of Jesus is all-forgiving, regardless of what you've done.

I agree with your friend, but in order to benefit from forgiveness you have to accept it; which requires penitence; which provokes anguish in the Soul for Sin.