Low Gaul morale

[Macilrille]

Well, I think it would have been a stalemate between them all three had he noot foolishly attacked me.

[WinsingtonIII]

Well, I think it would have been a stalemate between them all three had he noot foolishly attacked me.

True, but my personal experience has just generally been that even though the Gauls can hold the Romani, Sweboz, Lusos, etc. to a stalemate for quite a while, I rarely see them actively creating an empire larger than Gaul itself and they eventually tend to get absorbed by the surrounding factions. There are obviously exceptions though.

[Macilrille]

In general I agree, I just like nitpicking. Eventually the Lusos and Sweboz would have shared Gaul.

[Cute Wolf]

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead...

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

[Vilkku92]

Hey, you forgot about swordsmen! Gauls get swords earlier than germans, and they come in greater numbers.

Too bad AI doesn't use those swordsmen enough, but focus on Lugoae. I mean, Bataroas are one of the few gaul units that are actually match for Swebos infantry, but now they just rout with the rest of the army. Stupid AI!

[seienchin]

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead...

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

I thought the germanic cavallery and esspecially the celtic german mixed cavallery are far superior to leuce Epos?

[Duguntz]

They are far superios... the Reidonez are better than Leuce Epos and beats them on every field

[Os-Q]

German and Celto-German cavalry are also more of a skirmisher and "anti-cavalry" unit than the more general-use Leuce Epos (Celto-German cavalry can wipe out Roman bodyguards for example) however, they don't do as well charging against infantry
They're also a bit more expensive

[Power2the1]

The cavalry issue will also remedied (forgot to mention that!). The Celts were a culture with a big focus on horses. When I was redoin the units, I could not understand why they had just 2 horse types (under different names) to be found. Maybe its a RTW limitation on the EDU slots, not sure. However in EB2 you'll have a larger selection of horses and these will do the Celts proud for sure.

On a historical cavalry related note that some of y'all might be interested in, I was reading the archeological discoveries at Alesia, in French, but enough was apparent. There are some interesting horses found there, skeletons of course. Apparently the Gaul had some of the larger breeds that were found outside of the Celtic regions, like found in Italy, Scythia, etc...but bones to those horses were few and far between which denote these were valuable perhaps, and not readily offered up. Next came the Gallic ponies, the small Iron Age breeds that are common and much smaller than modern breeds (yet maintain the stamina and energy of the larger ones, and incredibly disease resistant in comparison to them). Also found were even smaller horses that are found east of the Rhine only, which denote trade with the Germanic, or Celto-Germanics living there. I hope the similar sizes can be used in game. We'll have to see...

I think that some of the stats for EB1 might have been focused on the Gallic War, perhaps. In EB2 Arverni and Aedui will not/shouldnot be at war in the beginning of EB2. That would not have happened until sometime after 121 B.C. I was entertaining an idea that perhaps a script can be written for the Gallic Civil Wars or, well, Inter Tribal warfare (for the politically correct out there) to occur under certain situations, say both of them have 'x' number of provinces or something...

[kekailoa]

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead...

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce, while the top-tier armored units like the Carnutes, the Solduri, and the Arverni Arjos are clearly superior to the Sweboz top-tier and line units, not to mention the Gaestae. Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a dsiadvantage to the Gauls obviously. Why the Sweboz are so dominant over the Gauls is that they can produce better-quality cheaper troops, and also obviously produce better spearmen and lower-end units. The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints, but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

[athanaric]

The cavalry issue will also remedied (forgot to mention that!). The Celts were a culture with a big focus on horses. When I was redoin the units, I could not understand why they had just 2 horse types (under different names) to be found. Maybe its a RTW limitation on the EDU slots, not sure. However in EB2 you'll have a larger selection of horses and these will do the Celts proud for sure.

Sounds like the Gauls will change a lot.

On a historical cavalry related note that some of y'all might be interested in, I was reading the archeological discoveries at Alesia, in French, but enough was apparent. There are some interesting horses found there, skeletons of course. Apparently the Gaul had some of the larger breeds that were found outside of the Celtic regions, like found in Italy, Scythia, etc...but bones to those horses were few and far between which denote these were valuable perhaps, and not readily offered up. Next came the Gallic ponies, the small Iron Age breeds that are common and much smaller than modern breeds (yet maintain the stamina and energy of the larger ones, and incredibly disease resistant in comparison to them). Also found were even smaller horses that are found east of the Rhine only, which denote trade with the Germanic, or Celto-Germanics living there. I hope the similar sizes can be used in game. We'll have to see...

All Under Heaven features Steppe "Ponies", maybe you guys can share them?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the cavalry comparison - time for some facts. With all reforms having kicked in, Gauls and Germans in EB I are about equal when it comes to cavalry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;69
type             germanic cavalry ridoharjoz
dictionary       germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz      ; Ridanz
category         cavalry
class            light
voice_type       General_1
soldier          germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz_komataihippeis, 25, 0, 1
officer          ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount            light horse
mount_effect     elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation        1.8, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         8, 27, javelin, 31.5, 4, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         9, 27, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.15
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  4, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental      13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 2745, 686, 60, 80, 2745
ownership        germans, slave, romans_julii, saba, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii

;496
type             germanic cavalry marhathegnoz
dictionary       germanic_cavalry_marhathegnoz      ; Marhathegnoz
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
mount            medium horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, siege, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 11, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental      16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 4034, 1009, 95, 444, 4034
ownership        germans

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;58
type             celtic skirmisher cavalry leuce epos
dictionary       celtic_skirmisher_cavalry_leuce_epos      ; Leuce Epos
category         cavalry
class            missile
voice_type       General_1
soldier          celtic_cavalry_leuceepos_equitesgallovrum, 25, 0, 1
mount            medium horse
mount_effect     elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation        2, 4, 4, 6, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 30, javelin, 55, 8, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         3, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  5, 11, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1983, 496, 40, 60, 1983
ownership        gauls, scythia, slave, britons, germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba

;17
type             celtic cavalry brihentin
dictionary       celtic_cavalry_brihentin      ; Brihentin
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
officer          ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount            heavy horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         9, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 9, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental      13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 3100, 775, 95, 444, 3100
ownership        gauls, scythia, britons, slave, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, spain, seleucid, saba, pontus, armenia

Suebi cavalry units are a little stronger in melee than the standard Gallic ones, but Gauls have acccess to Belgae cavalry.

[Cute Wolf]

Hey, you forgot about swordsmen! Gauls get swords earlier than germans, and they come in greater numbers.

Too bad AI doesn't use those swordsmen enough, but focus on Lugoae. I mean, Bataroas are one of the few gaul units that are actually match for Swebos infantry, but now they just rout with the rest of the army. Stupid AI!

Um.... maybe I forgot about it.... BTW, Germanic heavy infantry also available as mercs, so talking about wider and easier to get....
BTW, Sweboz got bigger swords (marshikoi Lugii), the only celts that outshine them are Kluddargos, and they are only in Brits.... BTW, talking about the hyper insanity Gaesatae.... I think I really forgot to mention it... sorry.... (because most of the time, my Medikikas allready take care the most of them)

German and Celto-German cavalry are also more of a skirmisher and "anti-cavalry" unit than the more general-use Leuce Epos (Celto-German cavalry can wipe out Roman bodyguards for example) however, they don't do as well charging against infantry
They're also a bit more expensive

Talking about cost-effectiveness, not per unit power, Gallic cavalry wins..... Reidonez is good at melee too, but they can't really hurt in a single charge (where the leuce epos can), and don't forget, the Brihentin are quite cheaper than their germanic counterparts... not talking about Remi Mairepos and their Gallic cavalry general...

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce, while the top-tier armored units like the Carnutes, the Solduri, and the Arverni Arjos are clearly superior to the Sweboz top-tier and line units, not to mention the Gaestae. Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a dsiadvantage to the Gauls obviously. Why the Sweboz are so dominant over the Gauls is that they can produce better-quality cheaper troops, and also obviously produce better spearmen and lower-end units. The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints, but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

Yeah.... Sweboz units are really bang for the bucks... if you try to use the Gallic Swordsmen everywhere in early-mid campaign, your economy will simply broke up....

[athanaric]

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce,

The standard Germanic swordsmen are significantly better in terms of quality, they just suffer from smaller unit size and poor javelin range.
Compare:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;66
type             celtic infantry bataroas
dictionary       celtic_infantry_bataroas      ; Bataroas
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          celtic_infantry_bataroas_northerncuroas, 50, 0, 1.1
officer          ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer          ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 8, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         10, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1503, 376, 196, 374, 1503
ownership        gauls, scythia, slave

;73
type             germanic infantry sahsnotoz
dictionary       germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz      ; Herunautoz 
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz_pictones_cherusciiswordsmen, 40, 0, 1.15
officer          ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation        0.85, 1.2, 1.4, 2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         7, 8, javelin, 30, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 13, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental      13, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1646, 412, 50, 70, 1646
ownership        germans, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, dacia, parthia, armenia, pontus, seleucid, saba

The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints,

Gallic economy/infrastructure is way better than Swêboz economy. Paved roads, univerities, better farms, hero tombs, for starters (Gallic economy is almost equal to that of Hayasdan).

but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

That's true.

Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a disadvantage to the Gauls obviously.

No.
See my post above.

and don't forget, the Brihentin are quite cheaper than their germanic counterparts

And weaker, accordingly.

not talking about Remi Mairepos

As expensive and strong as the Germanic guys.

if you try to use the Gallic Swordsmen everywhere in early-mid campaign, your economy will simply broke up....

Besides, it wouldn't be very realistic.

[Duguntz]

not agree. On a 1 to 1 basis, the clubman of sweboz (wich is a medium unit) eat the Solduri for breakfest! not only, on my own experiance, I kill the Mighty Katas with those clubmen. I mean, Sweboz clearly outshine celts on a unit level. you speak about economics? common, celts have ZE best economics of all northen cultures, while the Sweboz struggle and still winn over numericly superior celt opponant. why? because their units are better!

[Macilrille]

Which is the fun and "barbaric" part of playing the Sweboz; your economy sucks, you cannot build proper cities and have no stone building- but lots of wood in your forests. But your hardy, warlike and savage people will flock to their warlord's banner to pour out of the north and plunder the weak Wolhoz and Rumi, carrying home a rich booty of trophies, riches, women and slaves, for you may not be able to build cities, but you can take them...

The Gallic elite units are fine, unfortunately the AI does not build them, while the elite German Ferulharjoz should be very expensive, since they were rare. I could never build them anyway. Perhaps the Solduros and Carnutes should be less expensive.

[Cute Wolf]

*thinking about made a submod that tweak the economy and unit cost somewhat*

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Actually I noticed that the gallic factions do produce a fair amount of Solduros at least. Their main issue is that they recruit too many Lugoae and fight amongst each other and the Romans too much to be competative once the Sweboz arrive. In the games where Carthage attacks Rome early, the Aedui usually maintain a solid hold on most of Gaul.

[Ca Putt]

Gauls may sometimes withstand their neighbors but I've never seen them really powerfull with more than Gaul and maybe the Boii regions or Galatia. whereas I often see them field Bataroas and the better spearmen i've just forgot the name of next to Solduros and Neietos still those lugoae are a weak point that makes it easy to rout the whole army

[athanaric]

whereas I often see them field Bataroas and the better spearmen i've just forgot the name of next to Solduros and Neitos still those Lugoae are a weak point that makes it easy to rout the whole army

You mean Gaelaiche. The good thing is that by the Time of Soldiers reform, they lose Lugoae, forcing them to recruit the much more useful Gaelaiche instead. The bad thing is that by that time they are too weakened from internal strife and the Romans, Lusotannan, and Swêboz eat them alive.

Actually, the main problem with RTW.exe are the Lusotannan. Once they've kicked out Carthage, they rule supreme over a very rich area, with nobody threatening their back. I frequently see them gobble up Gaul and Rome, which is not amusing at all (I'd much rather see the boring old Romans or the Suebi become an empire, because that's more historically accurate (and coupled with a nicer factional colour. On the minimap, the Lusos holding all of Europe looks like a scenario of WW2 where the bad guys won).

[Kival]

In my campaigns Lusotannan are not that strong. Maybe it's because of the -4 attack reduction for light spear units in my EDU.

[Duguntz]

yeah, on my sweboz Campaing, I don't expand before the 220BC (for the fun and challenge to see real roman... if sweboz go toward rome early on... to take Barbaropolis is as hars as picking flowers in a wood walk) but still keep strong frontiers, so as they can't expand eastward, the Aedui went to knock on the door of lusos... they fare pretty well and lusos loose ground... in fact, only once have I seen lusos really strong. usualy, they're strong but Cartage hold fast to her northen border of the empire, and it seems the Lusos can't do sh** about it...

On the minimap, the Lusos holding all of Europe looks like a scenario of WW2 where the bad guys won).

LOL good one! Make me think about the table game axis and allies!

[TancredTheNorman]

My Gauls are great against Sweboz, the combination of slingers, armor, javelins, and deciding to lure them into unwinable sieges can be devastating to Sweboz armies, especially when so many of them are Germanic Archers and unarmored spearmen.

The clubmen used once in awhile are never a match for slingers. The best part about slingers is they are also almost all virtually the same, but they don't all come with the same price tag.

[athanaric]

The best part about slingers is they are also almost all virtually the same, but they don't all come with the same price tag.

Um, no. There are significant differences in range, attack, ammo, and protection. Even knife lethality (Balearics 0.11 > Gauls/Dacians 0.1 > all others 0.04) The Gallic dudes are very efficient, though - their mediocre range notwithstanding.
If you want to truly devastate the enemy, you can hire some Balearic slingers. They have slightly better range and the highest attack of all slingers, as well as the best melee weapon (AP!). Only their protection (1/9/1) and ammo (20) are inferior to those of the Iaosatae (who have 35 pebbles, which is the biggest amount of ammo for any slinger unit).

[NikosMaximilian]

Um, no. There are significant differences in range, attack, ammo, and protection. Even knife lethality (Balearics 0.11 > Gauls/Dacians 0.1 > all others 0.04) The Gallic dudes are very efficient, though - their mediocre range notwithstanding.
If you want to truly devastate the enemy, you can hire some Balearic slingers. They have slightly better range and the highest attack of all slingers, as well as the best melee weapon (AP!). Only their protection (1/9/1) and ammo (20) are inferior to those of the Iaosatae (who have 35 pebbles, which is the biggest amount of ammo for any slinger unit).

What about Rhodian slingers? They are pretty good, specially when heading east to fight armoured infantry/cavalry, and have some armour against missile attacks. The only problem is that they can only be recruited in Rhodes.

[WinsingtonIII]

What about Rhodian slingers? They are pretty good, specially when heading east to fight armoured infantry/cavalry, and have some armour against missile attacks. The only problem is that they can only be recruited in Rhodes.

The main strength of Rhodian Slingers is their range. They can shoot a stone 195 meters, which is almost as much as the range of Skythian Foot Archers. Balearic's do more damage with their stones, but their range is less, about 175 meters. I would argue overall Rhodians are better though, as they also carry 30 stones instead of only 20. Given their range, relatively high stone attack, and ammo amount, Rhodians are probably the best slingers in the game, unless I'm forgetting another elite slinger unit.

[Macilrille]

One slinger (preferably Rhodian) and two Toxotai Kretakoi, two- three cavalry and the rest nice and heavy legionairres + allies; oh yes!

[athanaric]

The main strength of Rhodian Slingers is their range. They can shoot a stone 195 meters, which is almost as much as the range of Skythian Foot Archers. Balearics do more damage with their stones, but their range is less, about 175 meters. I would argue overall Rhodians are better though, as they also carry 30 stones instead of only 20. Given their range, relatively high stone attack, and ammo amount, Rhodians are probably the best slingers in the game, unless I'm forgetting another elite slinger unit.

I agree with you. The only drawback of Rhodians (besides not being available as mercs) is their nigh-useless melee weapon. They fit my personal military doctrine best (high range and armour first).
Balearic Slingers carry a higher price tag, which is justified by higher attack, far better melee capabilities (def skill 9 as opposed to 6; much better lethality; AP attribute), and the best morale of all slingers. Still, their armour and shield (1 each) are piss poor compared to Rhodians. They are an elite equivalent of the Caucasian Archers - an all-out attack unit with decent (but not outstanding) range, but poor protection.

The best run-of-the-mill slingers are the Sphendonetai/Persians (same unit with different names and skins), followed by the Celtic guys.

[Apázlinemjó]

The Gaul factions are pretty much better than Sweboz in MP battles. The cheap Neitos, slingers and naked dudes can easily bash through any German line easily in my experience.

[Unintended BM]

Celtic slingers are great, I always use a few of those. But really, all slingers are useful, unlike some archers. Most regions with crappy archers aren't far from an area where you can get Cretan Archers, so what's the point in even using the crappy ones? All slingers are great though.

[vartan]

Celtic slingers are great, I always use a few of those. But really, all slingers are useful, unlike some archers. Most regions with crappy archers aren't far from an area where you can get Cretan Archers, so what's the point in even using the crappy ones? All slingers are great though.

You can hire many toxotai for the money it takes to hire a few toxotai kretikoi. Take the initiative in the battle; don't let the battle come to you, but rather take the battle to your opposition. In close range, your numerous archers will prove that their blood was worth something.