The Logic and Strategy of Suicide Terrorism

[Cute Wolf]

Yes, and I think this clearly shows, as the vast majority of Muslims I have encountered in my life are not the least interested in converting other people. You mentioned fanatics; but you should realise this constitutes only a small part of the Muslim population.

yeah, and in Netherland they are still a minority... imagine a place when they are almost everywhere, and generally had some kind of social grudge against another religion... truth to be told, muslims are pretty docile when they are few, but will demand for more if they are huge...

BTW: well, you should consider my offer to swap our place

EDIT:
if you can't take tropical climate, you could look on my friend's list, take a look at the lists and count how many of them wearing hijab another orgah (romaioktonoi one), once even said that he can't believe that my univ friends are mostly hardliners having seen the evidence (count how many of them are the fan of hardline movements)... and don't forget that one of my friends was allready an ex-muslim, who suffer significant abuse when he was still one of them... yeah, you could always argue that the fanatics doesn't represent the entire religion... but they always influencing them as whole....

[al Roumi]

yeah, and in Netherland they are still a minority... imagine a place when they are almost everywhere, and generally had some kind of social grudge against another religion... truth to be told, muslims are pretty docile when they are few, but will demand for more if they are huge...

BTW: well, you should consider my offer to swap our place

Erm, beyond the slightly sinister undertones in what you say, don't you think that a majority requesting greater attention and rights is natural and indeed truly democratic??

EDIT: Isn't this discussion now rather wildly off topic? This thread is about the logic and strategy of suicide terrorism. Not Muslims, Islam or other religions.

If people feel the need to, they should open a seperate thread where the forumites' angst, ignorance and bigotry on Muslims and Islam can be pooled -lest it be passed off as anything else.

[Viking]

nvm

[Cute Wolf]

Erm, beyond the slightly sinister undertones in what you say, don't you think that a majority requesting greater attention and rights is natural and indeed truly democratic??

EDIT: Isn't this discussion now rather wildly off topic? This thread is about the logic and strategy of suicide terrorism. Not Muslims, Islam or other religions.

If people feel the need to, they should open a seperate thread where the forumites' angst, ignorance and bigotry on Muslims and Islam can be pooled -lest it be passed off as anything else.

Yeah, but they should know that their "rights" also means that they didn't violate other's rights... but apparently, they didn't know about that...

Did try to undermine democracy on the guise of "majority voice", and installing anew system which minority was opressed was a kind of democracy?
If you want some example how... "Irrational" that can be: (all happened here)
-> Try to Changing the constitution with Sharia, and clearly said that another religion will be second rate citizen is democratic? (NOTE : Utterly failed)
-> Try to ban Women run on presidency is democratic? (NOTE : Failed)
-> Try to Made Islamic religion compulsory on all students is democratic? (NOTE : Rejected)
-> Try to close down churches and temples is democratic? (NOTE : Rejected by govt, but this case even ends up with church and temple bombings)
-> Try to limit school acess for non muslims is democratic? (in Aceh, it happened!)
-> Try to force every women to wearing hijab is democratic? (NOTE : they speak about rights in Western worlds, but here, they didn't even considering another faith's rights)
-> Try to ban mixed religion marriage is democratic? (NOTE : Partially granted, but about a year revised and rejected)
-> Try to kill every ex muslim is democratic? (NOTE : Rejected, but in reality, every ex-muslim must be very2 cautious here, I know a lot of them)
-> And the last is personal, attacking my relation with a muslim girl on the ground of religion, and when I out-spoke them in public, start resort to blackmaill threatens... is democratic?

ADD:
-> Try to press Internet cencorship... (failed)
-> Try to relase the bali bombing prisoners (failed)
-> Try to made the gov't declares war on Israel (that was just happened 2 days ago, failed)

[Fragony]

Why don't you proof Cute Wolf wrong, is he lying? Is he making things up? What are you saying exactly? I know it's normal lefties start about angst and bigotry when they can't defend their position, Islam not violent? Islam doesn't call for violence against non-muslims? Read any of the quotes? Can you read them or does your worldview cause mental blockage? Suicide are only a small part of terrorism and as it seems they are not ideologically motivated, but again it's only a minor aspect. Murder plot on cartoonists, not ideologically motivated? Murder on van Gogh, not ideologically motivated? Outrage over a teddybear, not ideologically motivated? Murderplots on Ayaan Hirschi Ali and Salman Rushdie, not ideologically motivated? If you are just looking at suicide attacks you are cherry-picking.

[Cute Wolf]

Why don't you proof Cute Wolf wrong, is he lying? Is he making things up? What are you saying exactly? I know it's normal lefties start about angst and bigotry when they can't defend their position, Islam not violent? Islam doesn't call for violence against non-muslims? Read any of the quotes? Can you read them or does your worldview cause mental blockage? Suicide are only a small part of terrorism and as it seems they are not ideologically motivated, but again it's only a minor aspect. Murder plot on cartoonists, not ideologically motivated? Murder on van Gogh, not ideologically motivated? Outrage over a teddybear, not ideologically motivated? Murderplots on Ayaan Hirschi Ali and Salman Rushdie, not ideologically motivated? If you are just looking at suicide attacks you are cherry-picking.

Let me give one minor nitpick in tis... Islam is a religion of peace... when they know the philoshopical meaning written in their quran... and consider philoshopical archievement was more worthy than literal archievement... (who was the majority attitude for now, but the fanatics always try to impose literal meaning over philoshopical meaning, that's why we didn't have the WW3 yet) - I appreciate all of your action to defend them, but in fact, you spur the growth of terrorism in the guise of "tolerance".

CW - NOTE : that was the words of my muslimah ex-girlfriend, that said that so I won't hate her religion as a whole...

[Fragony]

I appreciate all of your action to defend them, but in fact, you spur the growth of terrorism in the guise of "tolerance".

^- that

[Hax]

Yeah, but they should know that their "rights" also means that they didn't violate other's rights... but apparently, they didn't know about that...

I hope you have outgrown this illusionary thought you have about democracy. The "rights" of one person often mean that the "rights" of another are infringed. This is why mutual responsibility is much more important than rights, which are an abstract concept.

Islam is a religion of peace... when they know the philoshopical meaning written in their quran... and consider philoshopical archievement was more worthy than literal archievement...

And I wager that way over ninety percent of the Muslims share your opinion.

The defense of Muslim people does not constitute the growth of terrorism. You should hear yourself talking, it's utterly disgusting; and it's actually the result of the mediacracy that we seem to live in nowadays. You prefer the death or deportation of thousands if not millions of citizens over dialogue with other people just for this illusion of safety. Nationalism has become useless in this era where one can reach the other end of the world within 24 hours. Even if we deport those people, would this stop anything? Your message is one that is completely useless as it immediately refuses to negotiate with anyone.


When a crazy Saudi imam says that the west is Satanic, everybody goes insane, but when King Abdullah subsequently demotes this imam; nobody says a word.

When Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadineajad says idiotic things about the Holocaust, the newspapers are full of them, but when the pragmatic Ali Akbar Rafsanjani or the liberal Mohammed Khatami or even the conservative Mohsen Rezaie go against his statements, nobody says a word.

When an Egyptian imam says that the use of Facebook is haram, everybody shouts "Islam is an intolerant religion", but when Ali al-Sistani calls upon women to vote in Iraq, where is the right wing gone?


Your constant violent attacks on "the left", Fragony, are based solely on the negative information you repeatedly hear in the media. When they want to ban christmas trees in the University of The Hague, how many Muslims do you think support that? Wait no, how many Muslims would actually care about that?

[Cute Wolf]

And the exact opposite is happened here, in the eastern part of the wolrd... when a Mosque was bombed, palestinians was killed, a cartoonist draw a pic of muhammad, veil and hijab was forbidden in western world... everyone here take a lot of outrage and demonstration.... and put the blame on the Christians and Jews...

But when the attack was confirmed from another "muslim factions", Palestinians rocketting Israeli school bus, the cartoonist ask for forgivement, and the western gov't give greater religious degree for a practice that even most muslim from birth hate to use because that was outdated.... they don't said any word....

That was just a matter of public opinion Hax... rather try to help the one who you think "opressed", but you are not included there... you should think of someone who actually had the "oppresion" and said about that...

[Fragony]

Your constant violent attacks on "the left", Fragony, are based solely on the negative information you repeatedly hear in the media. When they want to ban christmas trees in the University of The Hague, how many Muslims do you think support that? Wait no, how many Muslims would actually care about that?

What negative information, only De Telegraaf calls things by the name, and I don't read De Telegraaf. My constant (violent que?) attacks on the left are because of the unrelenting Islamphilae and pre-emptive clientism of the left. Christmas tree is a good example, see that is where my aversion for the left comes from, that down with us mentality, sooooo eager.

edit, we are deranging Lemur's thread now though, let's leave it at this

[al Roumi]

Let me give one minor nitpick in tis... Islam is a religion of peace... when they know the philoshopical meaning written in their quran... and consider philoshopical archievement was more worthy than literal archievement... (who was the majority attitude for now, but the fanatics always try to impose literal meaning over philoshopical meaning, that's why we didn't have the WW3 yet) - I appreciate all of your action to defend them, but in fact, you spur the growth of terrorism in the guise of "tolerance".

CW - NOTE : that was the words of my muslimah ex-girlfriend, that said that so I won't hate her religion as a whole...

This is the crux of this matter. Not all Muslims stand for the same thing, in the same way as not all Christians, aethiests or whatever else stand for the same thing.

Personaly, I have a big problem with the denial of equality for women and the favorisation of any group (religious or other) over another. So I deplore the instances where such has been attempted as you describe above. Similarly, I abhore the situation in Saudi on this matter.

Not all Muslims stand for these things, and those that do, I would have issue with. The problem is that there is a tendency to label the whole of Islam and all Muslims as intolerant fanatics -which they aren't!

Extremism and militancy are the problems, not a religion.

Labeling the whole of Islam and Muslims as terrorists actually plays into the hands of Al-Qaida -by rejecting and ignoring the non-extremist Muslims. It focuses more attention on Osama as the supposed voice of all Muslims -which is completely wrong. The more polarised views become, the more likely a conflict -intolerance breeds conflict.

[Cute Wolf]

This is the crux of this matter. Not all Muslims stand for the same thing, in the same way as not all Christians, aethiests or whatever else stand for the same thing.

Personaly, I have a big problem with the denial of equality for women and the favorisation of any group (religious or other) over another. So I deplore the instances where such has been attempted as you describe above. Similarly, I abhore the situation in Saudi on this matter.

Not all Muslims stand for these things, and those that do, I would have issue with. The problem is that there is a tendency to label the whole of Islam and all Muslims as intolerant fanatics -which they aren't!

Extremism and militancy are the problems, not a religion.

Labeling the whole of Islam and Muslims as terrorists actually plays into the hands of Al-Qaida -by rejecting and ignoring the non-extremist Muslims. It focuses more attention on Osama as the supposed voice of all Muslims -which is completely wrong. The more polarised views become, the more likely a conflict -intolerance breeds conflict.

But ironically, what Hax have done... will almost spur their growth, because they install some sense of security barrier in the western wolrd, by saying that quran doesn't order killing of kaffirs... and such denial of any harmful ideas...

My Translation From Ulil Abshar Abdalla (the president of Liberal Islamic Network of Indonesia) :

But the truth is just simple, quran did have the killing of infidels... but that was more for philoshopical tought, and you should inspect their "background story", before interpreting them towards today's live... and inspect ourself, what can we do to improve the wellness of others, wellness of our family, and the wellness of ourself?

[al Roumi]

But ironically, what Hax have done... will almost spur their growth, because they install some sense of security barrier in the western wolrd, by saying that quran doesn't order killing of kaffirs... and such denial of any harmful ideas...

Ha! Al-Qaida and other extremists are only too pleased to see people saying that the Qu'ran says it is Muslims' duty to kill non-believers -it's exactly what they go around saying themselves.