So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?

[gaelic cowboy]

Men dameaning women, lawless youths, lack of civility

Mon Cher how will you ever deal with these unuiqe problems that no one has ever faced before?

I bet he starts every sentence with "The trouble with this country is <insert X> back in my day blah blah blah"

[Fragony]

Yay numbers, I love them. Been calculated that das experiment has the economic benefit of minus 6.900.000.000 euro a year. Tax revenues included. Leftist people know we need them for the elder but it only looks like there are less grannies if they are too scared to go outside.

economic benefit my arse

edit: Frag get your numbers straight you missed a few hundred million euro, das experiment costs us 7.200.000.000 euro a year. Since welfare dependence and crime rate are about similar in other NE countries apply to national budget. This is just the influx by the way, who's already here was neglected. Voting was never so easy.

[Meneldil]

Men dameaning women, lawless youths, lack of civility

Mon Cher how will you ever deal with these unuiqe problems that no one has ever faced before?

I dunno. How did/would you deal with it? My fear is that people will start dealing with it the harsh way.

I'm perfectly aware that the problems you cited have always existed. Been there done that. For all I know, there probably was just as much violence in Paris in 1910 than there is in 2010 (though I'd say violence was more "classy" back then, for a lack of better word). The new thing is that this violence is now mostly coming from a very caracteristic and noticeable part of the population.
You can't hate white people when you're muggled by a white dude if you're white yourself. But it is all too easy to start hating brown people if you're muggled by brown people.

[Brenus]

“though I'd say violence was more "classy" back then, for a lack of better word”
Not Really, if I remember what I learned in Lyon II/ Lumière University.

In fact, we are living in one of the safest society ever.

The Savate was developed (1845) because the streets of Paris were so unsafe that the Préfet forbade men to carry swords and blade. So men started to carry cane.

[Fragony]

@Menendil, do you have any decent rightwing party in France, not these FN scumbags but more like our Freedom Party. It's kinda unnerving to me that the people on the barricades are growing much harsher then I ever was.

[Skullheadhq]

Ironically it's the Freedom Party which wants to curtail freedom the most for safety. Nothing against the party, but they should have chosen a different name.

[Subotan]

Might I suggest the Bigot Party? Or perhaps the Wilders Lovefest would be more appropriate?

[Fragony]

Might I suggest the Bigot Party? Or perhaps the Wilders Lovefest would be more appropriate?

Keep that stuff at school where that is no doubt the height of wit. You bring nothing to the actual discussion, because you can't, it is normal that the ones that are 100% ok resort to oneliners. Boringly so. People don't burst into applause like they used to, do they. That's because these problems are real, they exist, people have them.

[Subotan]

So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?

[Fragony]

So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?

But what does that have to do with painting elephant purple so they can take tango lessons between 7 and 8 on sundays?

[Furunculus]

So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?

which in itself is a distraction from the fact that you suggested the PVV rename itself the Bigot Party, therefore denying that it exists to fulfill a public need, and that need is a public perception of mass immigration as a problem.

the labour party in Britain made the same stupid mistake, as did the Lib-Dems, which is why C2 voters in the industrial heartlands switched to the Cons in large numbers and partly why the Lib-Dem surge disappeared.

[Skullheadhq]

So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?

Wilders has some VERY GOOD ideas. He wants to keep the state pension age at 65 instead of increasing it to 67.
But he got some ideas that I'm radically against. I'll try to translate the party program for y'all

I. Tax Cuts

* 16 billion tax cuts for citizens and entrepreneurs (lower income tax ,less state officials, less money to the EU, less subsidies, less development aid to third world countries)
* Additional billion for pensioners
* More money to police, teachers and nurses by cutting bureaucracy/
* Lower Oil Prices by cutting some taxes on it.
* Keep the interest on your mortgage reductable from your taxes.
* Less ministries, less officials
* GNo increase of communal taxes.

II. Criminality and Terrorism

* Higher punishment and introduction of minimum penalties
* Life sentence after three major crimes
* Abolishment of reducted punishment in case of attempted crime
* Wettelijke verplichting OM tot voordeelsontneming daders bij misdrijven
* less Task punishment
* Abolishment of aging of violent- and sexual crimes.
* No punishment reduction when the prisoner behaves well
* Introduction 'boot camps
* Frisking anytime a police officer feels like it (That's nice for an officer who sees a good-looking woman!)
* Re-introduction youth- and sexual offences police (dunno what it's called in english)
* Outlaw the Pedophile Party
* More proffesional help for victims.
* End of 'Gedoogbeleid' (legal weed): closure of these weedshops, and detect home-growers and punishment. ( War on Drugs)
* Deport (Morrocan) 'streetterrorists' and criminals who have a double passport
* Introduction administrative detention in case of terrotism (?)
* Ten years no welfare checks in case of fraud.
* Non-Dutchmen who commit a crime here are to be deported.
* Agression against police and ambulance personel: +1/3 higher minimumpunishment en 1/3 higher maximumpunishment
* Squatting ban
* Reorganisation police: from 26 to 4 departments (North, East, South and West?)

III. Education and Family

* Meer aandacht voor onderwijs, gezin en opvoeding kinderen: veilige scholen, kwaliteitsverbetering lerarenopleiding, normen en waarden terug in gezin en onderwijs, ouders meer verantwoordelijk voor crimineel gedrag van hun minderjarige kinderen (waar van toepassing ook als het gaat om hun eigen verblijfsstatus)
* National bias in history (WTF! You can't change history to your liking! Let's lynch Wilders! Argh!)
* Smaller Schools
* Abolishment VMBO (School for dumb people), reintroduction ambachts(schools where you learn to bake if you want to become a baker, where you learn to build a wall if you want to be a construction worker etc.)- and 'punishmentschools'
* Social service for people in High School (3 months visiting old people etc.)
* Freedom of education, but no more Islamitic schools for 5 years.
* No more waiting list for youth care

IV. Immigrationstop / Integration

* Immigrationstop for non-western foreigners (Morrocans and Turcs) for 5 years.
* Maximum of 5.000 asylumseekers per region.
* New article one of the constitution: Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture must stay dominant in the Netherlands (What exactly is Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture)
* No new mosques and Islamitic schools for 5 years
* Closing of radical mosques, deport radical imams.
* Ban foreign financing of mosques
* Forbid foreign imams from preaching here, make Dutch obligatory in 'Houses of Worship' (You here it Catholics, no more latin in churches! :D)
* no voting for non-Dutchmen in communal elections.
* Texts distributed by the government should be Dutch-only.
* Abolish Double-Nationality
* No medical aid for illegals except when their life is threatened/
* Naturalisation after 10 years of no crime and must have worked the entire 10 year.
* No welfare checks for people that are here for less then 10 years.
* No immigrants allowed that have commited a crime in another country.
* No welfare checks will be send outside of the EU
* No burqa in public areas
* Outlaw scarfs for state officials
* Hell people who want to get back to their own country.

V. Direct democracy: more power to the citizens.

* Referenda for: (1) Turkish membership EU, (2) Do we want the Euro currency? (3) Antillen in the Kingdom, jay or nay?
* Elected mayor and minister-president.
* Abolishment House of Lords
* Reduce members of parliament from 150 to 100
* Abolish 'wachtgeldregeling'.(Former ministers recieving money) and they should immediatly get another job.
* No salary-raise for members of parliament
* No financial help to political parties from the Government. ( We had this to keep political parties independant from foreign influences, primarily the American Right)

VI. Healthcare / Social Services

* More money to hospitals; less bureaucracy
* Good treatment of elderly people; they are not prisoners!
* No income tax for people who work after they're 65 years old.
* Keep the borders closed for people from Eastern Europe. (THEY'RE TAKING OUR JERBS!)
* You'll have to work for your welfare check.
* No taxation of the state pension (AOW)

VII. Infrastructure / Energy

* Moar roads, less nature!
* No toll booths, ño pay per km.
* Increase of maximumspead, even further increase when it's late.
* Second National Airport in the Flevopolder or in sea (!)
* Destroy the 'Groene Hart' (much nature) and build houses instead.
* More Nuclear Plants.

VIII. European Union / Military Interventions / Foreign Policy
* No more countries in the EU (they're already taking our jerbs!)
* If Turkey joins the EU, the Netherlands will leave.
*Abolishment Schengen-visa, Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em immigrants.
* No European Constitution, the Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em citizens.
* EU primarily economic, reduce political power.
* Abolishment European Parliament, reduce European Commision and stop paying billions to Brussel.
* Less military interventions, only NATO interventions.
* Prioritise (FOREIGN!) human rights.
* Increase efficiency army.
* Help returning soldiers.
* Fight evil terrorists like Al-Quada, Hamas etc.

IX. Animal Rights
* Include Animal Rights in the constitution
* Prison sentence for people who treat animals badly.
* After convicted over animal abuse, it is forbidden to keep any more pets.
* Introduce Animal Cops
* National alarmnumber for animal related things: 113
* Hunt down people who 'Homeslaughter' (muslims)

[Fragony]

Agree with half of it or so, that's good enough a score for a vote. PVV or VVD. A vote on PVV is a vote on both. His program is solid and he got a good team that are all from trade, lawyers, principles, former head of immigration agency, they are all insiders.

[Subotan]

Wilders has some VERY GOOD ideas. He wants to keep the state pension age at 65 instead of increasing it to 67.

But he got some ideas that I'm radically against. I'll try to translate the party program for y'all

That's actually bad, since the current pension system in Western Europe is unsustainable. If it was up to me, the pension age would be at least 70, since you and me are going to paying for Gramps to have a golden retirement, whilst not being able to enjoy one ourselves. His economics is as loopy as his social policy!

Wilders has some VERY GOOD ideas. He wants to keep the state pension age at 65 instead of increasing it to 67.
But he got some ideas that I'm radically against. I'll try to translate the party program for y'all

I. Tax Cuts

* 16 billion tax cuts for citizens and entrepreneurs (lower income tax ,less state officials, less money to the EU, less subsidies, less development aid to third world countries)
* Additional billion for pensioners
* More money to police, teachers and nurses by cutting bureaucracy/
* Lower Oil Prices by cutting some taxes on it.
* Keep the interest on your mortgage reductable from your taxes.
* Less ministries, less officials
* GNo increase of communal taxes.

Note the lack of stats about who he's going to cut; presumably brown people.

II. Criminality and Terrorism

* Higher punishment and introduction of minimum penalties
* Life sentence after three major crimes
* Abolishment of reducted punishment in case of attempted crime
* Wettelijke verplichting OM tot voordeelsontneming daders bij misdrijven
* less Task punishment
* Abolishment of aging of violent- and sexual crimes.
* No punishment reduction when the prisoner behaves well
* Introduction 'boot camps
* Frisking anytime a police officer feels like it (That's nice for an officer who sees a good-looking woman!)
* Re-introduction youth- and sexual offences police (dunno what it's called in english)
* Outlaw the Pedophile Party
* More proffesional help for victims.
* End of 'Gedoogbeleid' (legal weed): closure of these weedshops, and detect home-growers and punishment. ( War on Drugs)
* Deport (Morrocan) 'streetterrorists' and criminals who have a double passport
* Introduction administrative detention in case of terrotism (?)
* Ten years no welfare checks in case of fraud.
* Non-Dutchmen who commit a crime here are to be deported.
* Agression against police and ambulance personel: +1/3 higher minimumpunishment en 1/3 higher maximumpunishment
* Squatting ban
* Reorganisation police: from 26 to 4 departments (North, East, South and West?)

Government policy on crime shouldn't just be about punishment.

* Meer aandacht voor onderwijs, gezin en opvoeding kinderen: veilige scholen, kwaliteitsverbetering lerarenopleiding, normen en waarden terug in gezin en onderwijs, ouders meer verantwoordelijk voor crimineel gedrag van hun minderjarige kinderen (waar van toepassing ook als het gaat om hun eigen verblijfsstatus)
* National bias in history (WTF! You can't change history to your liking! Let's lynch Wilders! Argh!)
* Smaller Schools
* Abolishment VMBO (School for dumb people), reintroduction ambachts(schools where you learn to bake if you want to become a baker, where you learn to build a wall if you want to be a construction worker etc.)- and 'punishmentschools'
* Social service for people in High School (3 months visiting old people etc.)
* Freedom of education, but no more Islamitic schools for 5 years.
* No more waiting list for youth care

Apart from the national bias thing, these look relatively sensible.

* Immigrationstop for non-western foreigners (Morrocans and Turcs) for 5 years.
* Maximum of 5.000 asylumseekers per region.
* New article one of the constitution: Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture must stay dominant in the Netherlands (What exactly is Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture)
* No new mosques and Islamitic schools for 5 years
* Closing of radical mosques, deport radical imams.
* Ban foreign financing of mosques
* Forbid foreign imams from preaching here, make Dutch obligatory in 'Houses of Worship' (You here it Catholics, no more latin in churches! :D)
* no voting for non-Dutchmen in communal elections.
* Texts distributed by the government should be Dutch-only.
* Abolish Double-Nationality
* No medical aid for illegals except when their life is threatened/
* Naturalisation after 10 years of no crime and must have worked the entire 10 year.
* No welfare checks for people that are here for less then 10 years.
* No immigrants allowed that have commited a crime in another country.
* No welfare checks will be send outside of the EU
* No burqa in public areas
* Outlaw scarfs for state officials
* Hell people who want to get back to their own country.

)

He doesn't seem to have any ideas for assimalation of immigrants, other than outlawing everything which is non-Dutch, effectively making second class citizens out of Muslims.

V. Direct democracy: more power to the citizens.

* Referenda for: (1) Turkish membership EU, (2) Do we want the Euro currency? (3) Antillen in the Kingdom, jay or nay?
* Elected mayor and minister-president.
* Abolishment House of Lords
* Reduce members of parliament from 150 to 100
* Abolish 'wachtgeldregeling'.(Former ministers recieving money) and they should immediatly get another job.
* No salary-raise for members of parliament
* No financial help to political parties from the Government. ( We had this to keep political parties independant from foreign influences, primarily the American Right)

)

It's intersting to note the common theme of direct democracy between right-wing populist parties in the UK and the Netherlands. UKIP and the BNP love direct democracy, as it permanently entrenches the knee-jerk mob-ocracy than right wing populism thrives on within the government. Pinochet in Chile was especially fond of referenda.

VI. Healthcare / Social Services

* More money to hospitals; less bureaucracy
* Good treatment of elderly people; they are not prisoners!
* No income tax for people who work after they're 65 years old.
* Keep the borders closed for people from Eastern Europe. (THEY'RE TAKING OUR JERBS!)
* You'll have to work for your welfare check.
* No taxation of the state pension (AOW)

)

He's targeting pensiopners a lot. Is that his core support?

VII. Infrastructure / Energy

* Moar roads, less nature!
* No toll booths, ño pay per km.
* Increase of maximumspead, even further increase when it's late.
* Second National Airport in the Flevopolder or in sea (!)
* Destroy the 'Groene Hart' (much nature) and build houses instead.
* More Nuclear Plants.
)

It's often more cost efficient to spend money repairing roads than building new ones. Although I do like the Nuclear Power Plants.

VIII. European Union / Military Interventions / Foreign Policy
* No more countries in the EU (they're already taking our jerbs!)
* If Turkey joins the EU, the Netherlands will leave.
*Abolishment Schengen-visa, Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em immigrants.
* No European Constitution, the Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em citizens.
* EU primarily economic, reduce political power.
* Abolishment European Parliament, reduce European Commision and stop paying billions to Brussel.
* Less military interventions, only NATO interventions.
* Prioritise (FOREIGN!) human rights.
* Increase efficiency army.
* Help returning soldiers.
* Fight evil terrorists like Al-Quada, Hamas etc.
)

Everyone already knows my position on the EU, so I disagree with most of this. I'm guessing that his ultra-efficient army would have fought back at Srebrenica, eh?

IX. Animal Rights
* Include Animal Rights in the constitution
* Prison sentence for people who treat animals badly.
* After convicted over animal abuse, it is forbidden to keep any more pets.
* Introduce Animal Cops
* National alarmnumber for animal related things: 113
* Hunt down people who 'Homeslaughter' (muslims)

He treats animals better than people!

But what does that have to do with painting elephant purple so they can take tango lessons between 7 and 8 on sundays?

I was talking about the Wilders Lovefest aspect of the party, since as it's obvious that it is a bigoted party, then there was no need for me to elaborate further.

[QUOTE]the labour party in Britain made the same stupid mistake, as did the Lib-Dems, which is why C2 voters in the industrial heartlands switched to the Cons in large numbers and partly why the Lib-Dem surge disappeared. QUOTE]
I trust my political parties to have policies which they believe in, and think will make good policies, rather than ones which will pick up easy votes. The Lib-Dems immigration policy was the most rational by far, but they were on the wrong side of public opinion. I'd also say that the main reason the surge disappeared was that progressives were scared the Tories would get in, so they voted Labour instead.

[Furunculus]

I trust my political parties to have policies which they believe in, and think will make good policies, rather than ones which will pick up easy votes. The Lib-Dems immigration policy was the most rational by far, but they were on the wrong side of public opinion. I'd also say that the main reason the surge disappeared was that progressives were scared the Tories would get in, so they voted Labour instead.

that's fine as long as you don't expect your fine and 'principled' politicians to ever get into power, the public after all tend to take a dim view of public servants that don't serve the public but rather themselves.

[Fragony]

If we limit immigration and the burden it puts on our treassurie money in spades, easy as that. Can't have a wellfarestate and unlimitd immigration. Less money to leftist hobby's more money for the people who pay it all. We don't owe them anything. Political refugees are welcome, even the blacks imagine that.

[Rhyfelwyr]

* Outlaw the Pedophile Party

Um... there's a pedophile party???

[Fragony]

Um... there's a pedophile party???

They tried to start one, didn't work out.

[Beskar]

It was a party who wanted the age of consent reduced to 12, in the Netherlands.

[Vladimir]

It was a party who wanted the age of consent reduced to 12, in the Netherlands.

We have a party that says they're going to hell!

[Husar]

Wilders sounds a bit like a National Socialist. And an animal socialist as well, there were a few nice ideas in that program but overall he is probably nuts.

[Megas Methuselah]

Wow. He's actually gettin some support? You people are scary.

[Skullheadhq]

Less money to leftist hobby's

Classical music concerts, museums, work of art, nature, festivals, libraries, public TV channels, developmet aid, charity subsidy and the list goes on and on. In short: everything that doesn't involve working your *** off. That would be nice, go with pension and then... find out there is nothing to do.

He's targeting pensiopners a lot. Is that his core support?

Pensioners are the ones who are most scared. He works with fear. Fear for muslims, fear for criminals, fear for eastern europeans (they might take jerbs) and fear for the EU, fear for almost everything that's not Dutch. So yes, Pensioners are a group he's targeting, and pensioners are a very great group in the Netherlands.

Besides, most pensioners are VERY traditionalistic. Just look at his new article one and his new proposed National History bias.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Wow. He's actually gettin some support? You people are scary.

No, the Dutch are extraordinarily tolerant and magnanimous.


Tiny and densily populated the Netherlands has accepted more non-Western refugees last year than the whole of developed East Asia has done the past half a century. This is because Western countries are the only ones who don't have a 'natives first' policy.

Western countries are also the only ones who meet development aid standards. Japan pays as much as tiny, underdeveloped Portugal.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No, the Dutch are extraordinarily tolerant and magnanimous.


Tiny and densily populated the Netherlands has accepted more non-Western refugees last year than the whole of developed East Asia has done the past half a century. This is because Western countries are the only ones who don't have a 'natives first' policy.

Western countries are also the only ones who meet development aid standards. Japan pays as much as tiny, underdeveloped Portugal.

It's that dratted lingering influence of Christian charity. If we'd put the kibosh on that, we'd be able to be rationally focused on ourselves first and tell the others to go hang unless there was some long-term benefit to us.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's that dratted lingering influence of Christian charity. If we'd put the kibosh on that, we'd be able to be rationally focused on ourselves first and tell the others to go hang unless there was some long-term benefit to us.

Drats! I'm being cornered!


Erm...let's see. How do I wriggle myself out of this perilous position?

Back when we were Christian, we fought colonial wars. Post-Christian Europe is enlightened. Yeah.

[Strike For The South]

I dunno. How did/would you deal with it? My fear is that people will start dealing with it the harsh way.

I'm perfectly aware that the problems you cited have always existed. Been there done that. For all I know, there probably was just as much violence in Paris in 1910 than there is in 2010 (though I'd say violence was more "classy" back then, for a lack of better word). The new thing is that this violence is now mostly coming from a very caracteristic and noticeable part of the population.
You can't hate white people when you're muggled by a white dude if you're white yourself. But it is all too easy to start hating brown people if you're muggled by brown people.

My family has waited it out since we started letting the Germans in I feel we will continue to do so.


Viloence is never classy. Your post reminds of an oft rpeated theme here in the states. People are longing for the days where Irish and Italian gangs ran things instead of the newer Russian and Hispanic ones claiming they were classier. I blame the media for romanticisizing these things in movies like the Godfather. Trust me its not as bad as it seems

[Fragony]

Pensioners are the ones who are most scared. He works with fear. Fear for muslims, fear for criminals, fear for eastern europeans (they might take jerbs) and fear for the EU, fear for almost everything that's not Dutch.

Every time I read the word fear I want to claw eyeballs. Spreading fear is the grand tactic of the left when real issues are brought up. The fear is on the left, the fear of being wrong, and they will do anything to wrap the sum around the outcome. And now they scream 'no solutions' (which is odd as there are no problems) , yes solutions just not dream-proof solutions.

[Furunculus]

fear certainly seems to be the driving force behind the euro.

fear that western liberalism will whither unless everyone corrals behind a big iron curtain.
fear that western social support will go the same way.
fear that western economic strength is ineluctably waning.

Britain has no need of this fear, it is debilitating, and will hinder the continued pursuit of all three of those things.

[Fragony]

Fear certainly is the driving force of the hate-mongering against Wilders. It's even worse then it was with Fortuyn, thanks to the fearmongers the lemmings were running in circles shrieking the exact things as they do now. Even poor little Anne Frank had a day off from chimney. Well several. They see fascism everywhere but don't recognise it when they brush their teeth.