Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

[Andres]

Having just watched the video of the boarding i have revised my previous conclusion that israel had probably responded disproportionately:

I now have zero issue with the israeli response to what was extreme resistance to the boarding party.

My sympathies lie almost exclusively with the injured israeli soldiers, with perhaps some tiny spark of sympathy for the useful idiots who may have been caught in the crossfire between the soldiers and the nutcases wielding iron-bars and fire-bombs.

There's still the small matter of boarding ships in international waters, where Israel has no authority whatsoever.

So, if victims of pirates use a crowbar and a screwdriver against their attackers, then you say the victims had it coming, asked for their ships being boarded by pirates and shouldn't complain about being killed? Funny how you try to turn the world upside down in a fruitless attempt to justify this act.

[Subotan]

Ship carrying civilians attempts to run past blockade on the Palestinian coast; thugs board ship and kill innocent people, sparking worldwide sympathy for the civilian cause.

[rory_20_uk]

Ship carrying civilians attempts to run past blockade on the Palestinian coast; thugs board ship and kill innocent people, sparking worldwide sympathy for the civilian cause.

It is "find a borderline related story and then write an inaccurate title about it" day?

Having read the article, it talks about a fight breaking out where people were injured. A british officer said it could have been worse - teargas might have been required! Isralis went in with stun grenades, teargas and live ammo...

[Subotan]

It is "find a borderline related story and then write an inaccurate title about it" day?

Having read the article, it talks about a fight breaking out where people were injured. A british officer said it could have been worse - teargas might have been required! Isralis went in with stun grenades, teargas and live ammo...

Seeing how important a symbol the Exodus remains to this day, you would have thought the Israelis would have thought twice about reprising the role of the British, especially a more violent one.

[rory_20_uk]

The only similarity is that then Jews were thwarted and here they were triumphant.

One might have thought making a large concentration camp would have unsettled the Israeli state, but it appears to be unphased.

Now Israel is saying it was provoked. The cry of the wife-batterer through the ages.

[HoreTore]

The only similarity is that then Jews were thwarted and here they were triumphant.

One might have thought making a large concentration camp would have unsettled the Israeli state, but it appears to be unphased.

Now Israel is saying it was provoked. The cry of the wife-batterer through the ages.

So, if Gaza had the dinner ready when Israel came home from work, none of this would've happened?

[rory_20_uk]

So, if Gaza had the dinner ready when Israel came home from work, none of this would've happened?

I think you're stretching the metaphor here but I'll try:

If Palestinians would just pack up their bags and depart to somewhere else (Egypt, Syria, Mediterranean ocean) there wouldn't be the need for this problem, would there? If Palestine would just cease to exist there would be no need to throttle it to death.

And now there are these people provoking Israel by providing aid. Very unreasonable behaviour.

[PanzerJaeger]

There's still the small matter of boarding ships in international waters, where Israel has no authority whatsoever.

So, if victims of pirates use a crowbar and a screwdriver against their attackers, then you say the victims had it coming, asked for their ships being boarded by pirates and shouldn't complain about being killed? Funny how you try to turn the world upside down in a fruitless attempt to justify this act.

So your theory is that these ships weren't headed for Gaza at all? Maybe they were on their way to Hawaii and got turned around? Because that is the only way your pirate analogy works.

[Andres]

So your theory is that these ships weren't headed for Gaza at all? Maybe they were on their way to Hawaii and got turned around? Because that is the only way your pirate analogy works.

What I'm saying is that Israel handled this as clumsy as possible. They should have boarded the ships in their territorial waters, not in international waters. You may not like it, but by boarding those ships in international waters, using force, they violated international law.

[rory_20_uk]

What I'm saying is that Israel handled this as clumsy as possible. They should have boarded the ships in their territorial waters, not in international waters. You may not like it, but by boarding those ships in international waters, using force, they violated international law.

I think that was intentional.

Israel is just showing everyone what it thinks of the International community. It pays no more than lip service and basically does whatever it wants.

To prevent another Holocaust of Jews and price of Gentile life or suffering is permitted.

[Furunculus]

What I'm saying is that Israel handled this as clumsy as possible. They should have boarded the ships in their territorial waters, not in international waters. You may not like it, but by boarding those ships in international waters, using force, they violated international law.

Exclusive. Economic. Zone.

Article58

3. In exercising their rights and performing their duties under this Convention in the exclusive economic zone, States shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

Article73

1. The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention.

[rory_20_uk]

The waters are not those of Israel - they're Gazan waters.

[LeftEyeNine]

Another detail we come to see thanks to the thread:

Warmonging before your gaming consoles is the new hobby of the gym-pumped rifle-poser softie.

Teach Turks a lesson ! AIIEEEEEEEYAY !

First of all, such a scenario ends up a war of worldwide scale since the "starring" actors are the flag carriers of the silent polarization that inherits cold-war era stances as well as the newly developed religiously-devoted yet actually political-oriented anti-american and anti-zionist movement.

It's no wonder how our luvley unkle gets himself trapped in mud over and over 'cause apparently it somehow maintains an endless stream of warmongers. Intellectuality has nothing to do with level of welfare over there across this continent. Somebody out there is still wishing for his very own citizens to get choked in Middle East just as they did in Vietnam and Iraq.

Sorry to disappoint you but the people this surrounding has raised are so hard-skinned -ridiculously, thanks to G8 meddlings here- that they may be failing at everything else but they fight well. If they can't do it, they can blow themselves up. Bitter fact about ones that ain't got much to lose.

Anyway, even the "I'm-so-neutral"ists were looking for an excuse to turn their pro-in-advance faces on. As soon as we got shots of Israeli troops landing on the civilian ship in international waters, "oh look how they deserve to die" monging popped up.

Is this how your lovely democracies were rubbed in face of us in the very first chance ? Is this the first time on earth some professional and organized security force encounters an angry mob ? Have we re-furnished your understanding of humanism with "go for the kill if they're angry" kind of handling ? If professionals act so, and out of their national waters, what can you expect out of ones in the streets ? Looking out of your window (ref: "what did you expect Israel to do ?"): Seriously, what kind of reaction did you expect to see when those people saw Israeli troopers being offloaded onto their ships ?

Keep it honest please. If you're pro-Israel, you don't have to hide behind the curtain, 'cause your Israel flag slippers can still be seen.

You've lost your sense for value of human life. But I say, screw it, you got your God of War 4 on PS3 coming anyway. We will keep on suffering your neo-connazi-run governments' policies. Bonus: A lot of your citizens included in the suffering.

[Furunculus]

Another detail we come to see thanks to the thread:

Warmonging before your gaming consoles is the new hobby of the gym-pumped rifle-poser softie.

Teach Turks a lesson ! AIIEEEEEEEYAY !

First of all, such a scenario ends up a war of worldwide scale since the "starring" actors are the flag carriers of the silent polarization that inherits cold-war era stances as well as the newly developed religiously-devoted yet actually political-oriented anti-american and anti-zionist movement.

It's no wonder how our luvley unkle gets himself trapped in mud over and over 'cause apparently it somehow maintains an endless stream of warmongers. Intellectuality has nothing to do with level of welfare over there across this continent. Somebody out there is still wishing for his very own citizens to get choked in Middle East just as they did in Vietnam and Iraq.

Sorry to disappoint you but the people this surrounding has raised are so hard-skinned -ridiculously, thanks to G8 meddlings here- that they may be failing at everything else but they fight well. If they can't do it, they can blow themselves up. Bitter fact about ones that ain't got much to lose.

Anyway, even the "I'm-so-neutral"ists were looking for an excuse to turn their pro-in-advance faces on. As soon as we got shots of Israeli troops landing on the civilian ship in international waters, "oh look how they deserve to die" monging popped up.

Is this how your lovely democracies were rubbed in face of us in the very first chance ? Is this the first time on earth some professional and organized security force encounters an angry mob ? Have we re-furnished your understanding of humanism with "go for the kill if they're angry" kind of handling ? If professionals act so, and out of their national waters, what can you expect out of ones in the streets ? Looking out of your window (ref: "what did you expect Israel to do ?"): Seriously, what kind of reaction did you expect to see when those people saw Israeli troopers being offloaded onto their ships ?

Keep it honest please. If you're pro-Israel, you don't have to hide behind the curtain, 'cause your Israel flag slippers can still be seen.

You've lost your sense for value of human life. But I say, screw it, you got your God of War 4 on PS3 coming anyway. We will keep on suffering your neo-connazi-run governments' policies. Bonus: A lot of your citizens included in the suffering.

i am very much pro-turkey, so be careful where you swing your blunt and cumbersome accusations.

[LeftEyeNine]

i am very much pro-turkey, so be careful where you swing your blunt and cumbersome accusations.

This is about being pro-Israel, not pro-Turkey, for which I don't care actually. Respect is earnt, not demanded, if that's your point.

Also whole paragraph was not only about you. But I'm glad the message got delivered, live with it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Another detail we come to see thanks to the thread:

Warmonging before your gaming consoles is the new hobby of the gym-pumped rifle-poser softie.

Teach Turks a lesson ! AIIEEEEEEEYAY !

First of all, such a scenario ends up a war of worldwide scale since the "starring" actors are the flag carriers of the silent polarization that inherits cold-war era stances as well as the newly developed religiously-devoted yet actually political-oriented anti-american and anti-zionist movement.

It's no wonder how our luvley unkle gets himself trapped in mud over and over 'cause apparently it somehow maintains an endless stream of warmongers. Intellectuality has nothing to do with level of welfare over there across this continent. Somebody out there is still wishing for his very own citizens to get choked in Middle East just as they did in Vietnam and Iraq.

Sorry to disappoint you but the people this surrounding has raised are so hard-skinned -ridiculously, thanks to G8 meddlings here- that they may be failing at everything else but they fight well. If they can't do it, they can blow themselves up. Bitter fact about ones that ain't got much to lose.

Anyway, even the "I'm-so-neutral"ists were looking for an excuse to turn their pro-in-advance faces on. As soon as we got shots of Israeli troops landing on the civilian ship in international waters, "oh look how they deserve to die" monging popped up.

Is this how your lovely democracies were rubbed in face of us in the very first chance ? Is this the first time on earth some professional and organized security force encounters an angry mob ? Have we re-furnished your understanding of humanism with "go for the kill if they're angry" kind of handling ? If professionals act so, and out of their national waters, what can you expect out of ones in the streets ? Looking out of your window (ref: "what did you expect Israel to do ?"): Seriously, what kind of reaction did you expect to see when those people saw Israeli troopers being offloaded onto their ships ?

Keep it honest please. If you're pro-Israel, you don't have to hide behind the curtain, 'cause your Israel flag slippers can still be seen.

You've lost your sense for value of human life. But I say, screw it, you got your God of War 4 on PS3 coming anyway. We will keep on suffering your neo-connazi-run governments' policies. Bonus: A lot of your citizens included in the suffering.

Is there any way you can write a longer post that makes less sense?

I mean, seriously, as someone who is pro-Israel, I feel like maybe I should be insulted. It appears that post is laced with personal attacks and insults, especially considering your other posts in this thread. However, it is so nonsensical and so poorly written, I'm just not sure.

Can you explain what you meant more clearly?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is there any way you can write a longer post that makes less sense?

I mean, seriously, as someone who is pro-Israel, I feel like maybe I should be insulted. It appears that post is laced with personal attacks and insults, especially considering your other posts in this thread. However, it is so nonsensical and so poorly written, I'm just not sure.

Can you explain what you meant more clearly?

It rambled a bit, PJ, but the basic thrust was pretty clear. He's suggesting that a lot of the posturings and platitudes are blatantly hypocritical, and goes on to suggest that he'd prefer the comments of out-and-out "I want the Israelis to win" types over people who he believes WANT to say that but are veiling their commentary in nit-picky assessments of international law. LEN's not necessarily correct, but it's not an entirely unfounded critique.

I'd complain more about his use of English if I myself had half as good a command of a second language. Until I do, I'll just read with a discerning eye and look at the spirit of it more than the particulars of parsiflage.

[Andres]

Exclusive. Economic. Zone.

The point being?

Your quote:

The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding,

Pray, tell me, which sovereign rights to "explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources" in the EEZ were being exercised by Israel when they boarded the ship? Are ships carrying humanitarian aid a danger for the species living in Israels (some might argue that it's not Israels EEZ, but Gaza's...) EEZ? Were the humanitarian ships buildling an oil platform? Where the Israeli commando's entering the ships armed an all geared up because they saw the activists fishing?



If you're going to quote, then make sure you read the entire text, not just the part you want to read. Contrary to what you seem to imply, "may take such measures, including boarding" is not what is written there.

[Furunculus]

The point being?

Your quote:



Pray, tell me, which sovereign rights to "explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources" in the EEZ were being exercised by Israel when they boarded the ship? Are ships carrying humanitarian aid a danger for the species living in Israels (some might argue that it's not Israels EEZ, but Gaza's...) EEZ? Were the humanitarian ships buildling an oil platform? Where the Israeli commando's entering the ships armed an all geared up because they saw the activists fishing?



If you're going to quote, then make sure you read the entire text, not just the part you want to read. Contrary to what you seem to imply, "may take such measures, including boarding" is not what is written there.

my point; the situation is not clear cut, as Saemus rightly questioned this is not a cut-n-dried case of international waters.

[Andres]

my point; the situation is not clear cut, as Saemus rightly questioned this is not a cut-n-dried case of international waters.

But it is.

The problem is that if they admit it, Israel (and its' allies) will also have to admit that Israel breached international law. So now, they wringle and twist simple enough facts, claiming that "it needs to be investigated and examined first", to buy time, in the hope the press and the international community gets bored with the story after a week or so and everything can be wiped quickly under the carpet; in the meanwhile doing nothing and giving Israel a free pass.

Meh.

[Furunculus]

There's still the small matter of boarding ships in international waters, where Israel has no authority whatsoever.

So, if victims of pirates use a crowbar and a screwdriver against their attackers, then you say the victims had it coming, asked for their ships being boarded by pirates and shouldn't complain about being killed? Funny how you try to turn the world upside down in a fruitless attempt to justify this act.

no, i just decided to wait out the facts before i decided to get my knickers in a twist:

Q: Is it locked in concrete, dead certain, everyone agrees, that this action took place in "International Waters", and not Israeli Territorial Waters, or its (Israel's) Contiguous Zone, or Exclusive Economic Zone?

All those zones, defined by international Maritime Law, represent various levels (and distances from the shoreline) of rights of sea control to sovereign nations. We should take care in throwing around the term "International Waters", and therefore asserting International judgment rights, when those jurisdictions are not clear in this case.

* is curious too *

[Slyspy]

Of course the fact remains that Israel as alienated its only Muslim ally, all be it one which is becoming increasingly islamist (Ataturk must be spinning in his grave). All for nothing.