AI

[TinCow]

So, what are the odds that there will be a decent AI in this one? I've pretty much given up on the TW series exclusively because of the horrible AI that makes the game boring as dirt. Is there something about the nature of a Shogun sequel that should give me hope?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

According to their announcement statement, there will be less unit types, which might make things easier for the AI.

Of course, they'll try to expand it out with DLC because the TWCenter and .com forums are a bunch of whiners and need lots of useless shiny instead of a working game.

[Intranetusa]

According to their announcement statement, there will be less unit types, which might make things easier for the AI.
Of course, they'll try to expand it out with DLC because the TWCenter and .com forums are a bunch of whiners and need lots of useless shiny instead of a working game.

I don't think it's that hard for the developers to make a decent AI, even for a game with varying units like RTW.

You have your melee infantry, melee cavalry, ranged infantry, ranged cavalry, or a combo...

The developers are just lazy...

[gollum]

And yet - rosters do incredibly affect AI capability. I am perfectly certain that a game like Empire had an AI with more potential on the battlefield. However the original's STW's AI always gives a run for your money if you are on a parity in units available and in relatively flat ground. Rome modded can get more out of the AI simply by rationalise and simplifying teh rosters.

[Myrddraal]

I don't think it's that hard for the developers to make a decent AI, even for a game with varying units like RTW.

You have your melee infantry, melee cavalry, ranged infantry, ranged cavalry, or a combo...

The developers are just lazy...

Hmm... I wouldn't be so sure about it being easy

[Thermal]

Hmm... I wouldn't be so sure about it being easy

Yeah, they have to know what to do in every situation, consider where its opponent is and combat them effectively, a lot of thought processes. Then they must consider terrain, weather, whether to keep units in reserve or not.

[Sp00n]

TBH as Shogun is on a much smaller scale, they should have way more time to concentrate on things like AI and balancing, I dont think the AI is that bad in Empire its certainly improved massively over the last 10 years and Shogun should be the easiest setting to get the AI right in.

[vartan]

I don't think it's that hard for the developers to make a decent AI, even for a game with varying units like RTW.

You have your melee infantry, melee cavalry, ranged infantry, ranged cavalry, or a combo...

The developers are just lazy...

I thought that for a microsecond or two, and then I realized (in 3 to 5 femtoseconds) that I was incorrect in thinking so. How lazy I was to think so instead of doing some homework and research on the field. Schucks.

[TheDuck]

I don't think it's that hard for the developers to make a decent AI, even for a game with varying units like RTW.

You have your melee infantry, melee cavalry, ranged infantry, ranged cavalry, or a combo...

The developers are just lazy...

I'm a programmer.. nothing about AI for games like Total War is 'easy'.. nothing at all.

[Intranetusa]

If CA can't make a decent AI, they should make the AI non-hard coded...

Then some modders/programmers like the EB team will just fix up the AI and port Asia-ton-Barbarorum over ez peazy... :D

I'm a programmer.. nothing about AI for games like Total War is 'easy'.. nothing at all.

=(

[AussieGiant]

Ah yes, the "AI can easily be fixed" topic has raised its attractive but subtly annoying head...again.

Of course the modding community can fix the AI, that's why they are all working for military or banking organisations in their spare time. Replicating the human brain is what you do when you have a few hundred spare hours of free time.

[Aradan]

You can't put the AI in the soft-code any more than you can put the graphics engine. What modders might be able to change is some the various thresholds, yes/no options and modifiers/multipliers the AI uses, but the main structure of the AI code needs to be hardcoded. And programming good AI, finding the perfect balance between performance and quality, is very hard (it's nothing modders can do, it's not like changing 2d or scripting, one would need a degree in informatics at least) and money-intensive. And of course it's a fact that AI is not as cost-effective for game developers as shiny graphics are.

[Crazed Rabbit]

If CA can't make a decent AI, they should make the AI non-hard coded...

Then some modders/programmers like the EB team will just fix up the AI and port Asia-ton-Barbarorum over ez peazy... :D

Soren Johnson (designer and leader coder for Civilization 4) addresses that an essay titled Seven Deadly Sins for Strategy Games.

5. Locked code/data

Protecting your code and data is a very natural instinct – after all, you may have spent years working on the project, developing unique features, pushing the boundaries of the genre. Giving away the innards of your game is a hard step for many developers, especially executives, to take. Nonetheless, we released the game/AI source code for Civ 4 shortly after shipping, and – so far – the results have been fantastic. Three fan-made mods were included in the game’s second expansion pack – Derek Paxton’s Fall from Heaven: Age of Ice, Gabriele Trovato’s Rhye’s and Fall of Civilization, and Dale Kent’s WWII: The Road to War – and so far, these scenarios have been heralded as one of Beyond the Sword’s strongest features. These mods would have been nowhere near as deep or compelling (or even possible) if we had not released our source code. For many PC developers, I’m preaching to the choir, so I’d like to be very clear that the problem is worst amongst strategy games. For whatever reason (perhaps the lack of a pioneering developer like id Software?), strategy developers have been much more closed off to modding than their shooter and RPG brethren. There are exceptions, like Blizzard’s fantastic scenario editor for WarCraft 3, but by and large, strategy modders do not have many places to turn for platforms on which to work, which was one reason we felt compelled to focus on modding for Civ 4. Giving stuff away can feel good. It should also feel smart.

Good AI may not be easy, but it is possible. CA has no excuse for not including it, or not unlocking code.

CR

[Hooahguy]

If CA can't make a decent AI, they should make the AI non-hard coded...

Then some modders/programmers like the EB team will just fix up the AI and port Asia-ton-Barbarorum over ez peazy... :D

=(

no, not the EB team. Darth will do it!

[vartan]

If CA can't make a decent AI, they should make the AI non-hard coded...

Then some modders/programmers like the EB team will just fix up the AI and port Asia-ton-Barbarorum over ez peazy... :D

No offence to the EB dev team, but what makes you think they've any better a shot at making the AI "smarter"? There are plenty of research going on right now at institutions devoted just to this, and you want the AI to be made open source? Appalling.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Just think of a STW campaign without the Hojo Horde and suicide daimyos reducing your competition to rebels.

Two of my biggest pet peeves, especially the suicidal daimyo charge. My foggy memory seems to recall a flanking exploit with cav strung out into a single line that was rather silly & bogus as well. Fix that stuff and it should be as fun as the original.

Actually, the sengoku jidai period is one of the very few that makes sense for CA's Hobbesean all-against-all AI. Everybody wants to become Shogun, or be a close (preferably by marriage) ally of the dude who wins. Hmm, well, I don't know if CA can handle that second part. Allies who stick with you even when you're winning? Unthinkable.

Hehehe, allies who stick it to you, inconsiderate cherry blossoms. Human nature really stinks sometimes.

[Tomisama]

Game AI will absolutely never be as good as facing a human player, even for practice, and especially not when playing with allies.

The ultimate experience to be found in any Total War game; is with other people.

Even as difficult as it may be sometimes to find persons who are as dedicated to honourable combat as you yourself are, it is still worth the effort to seek them out.

[Lemur]

I'm a programmer.. nothing about AI for games like Total War is 'easy'.. nothing at all.

I'll never forget me and my friends stumbling through RoboWar, a 1992 game that asked you to program the AI for simple battle tanks. Brutal stuff, and not a hundredth as complex as TW AI.

I know programming AI is hard. And I seem to recall that there was some business where the dude who created the ETW AI left the company before release, or something like that. I'm under the impression that CA got royally gah-ed in the AI department and has been playing catch-up ever since.

That said, CA has a real budget, can hire real programmers, and has both a fiduciary and aesthetic obligation to get its house in order. That includes releasing its next generation of TW game with something better than Black Knight diplomacy (or omnium contra omnes AI, as I've come to think of it.)

[Gregoshi]

I'll never forget me and my friends stumbling through RoboWar, a 1992 game that asked you to program the AI for simple battle tanks. Brutal stuff, and not a hundredth as complex as TW AI.

I recall playing a game with the same theme but I don't think it was "Robowars". However I came away from that game with a similar appreciation for the complexities of AI. Trying to imagine what the AI programming must look like for any game in the TW series makes my head spin. There are just too many variables to consider.

Anyone who thinks AI is easy, doesn't understand AI. Try this: write down detailed instructions on how to get a drink of water. Everytime and wherever you are and you want a drink of water, follow your instructions TO THE LETTER. Remember, every decision you make in getting a drink of water has to be written down in your instructions. Do your instructions consider what kind of water is available? Sink, bathtub, toilet, bottled, pitcher, lake, ocean, stream/river, drinking fountain? Depending upon the source, do you really want to drink that water? (GAH! what if we have a choice of water sources?!) Let's assume we determine the availabe water is from a sink. Now you need a cup. What kind of cup is available? Is it clean? Is it broken? Where is it? How do you search for a cup? In your search for a cup, did your instructions included opening up the cupboard door if you search there? Which size cup to you get? Which hand do you pick it up with, i.e. is any hand unavailable? You have your cup now and let's assume your instructions including getting to the sink successfully (pathfinding!). Do you get hot water or cold water? What kind of controls are there for the water spigot? I hope your instructions cover every type of spigot you could possibly run into otherwise you will have to make a choice of operation actions which may look rather silly to anyone watching you try to turn it on. Etc, etc, etc. The simple act of getting water isn't so simple after all. We make a lot of decisions we aren't even aware of, but AI has to be aware of them.

No, AI is not easy.

[A Nerd]

Limited scope? Simpler means to an end? The AI will have one objective, to conquer Japan. The AI in latter renditions seemed to be more concerned with alliances and maintaining them (not with the player). I don't know what the new diplomacy model will be, but let's hope it's more a maneurver to maintain stable borders, build coffers and manipulate warring enemies to achive eventual conquest of Japan (or whatever endgame goals are), insted of being Switzerland. The AI in STW seemed capable of this (though the game was much simpler), let's hope the new AI is able as well. THough I speak solely on strap map AI. Melee combat, one would think, would require the AI to make fewer decisions than ranged combat. But I don't really know.

[Kagemusha]

Like the Nerd says.More simple goals for Campaign AI, while lot simpler job for battle map AI as the units are less plenty and more similar.

[Gregoshi]

Just think of a STW campaign without the Hojo Horde and suicide daimyos reducing your competition to rebels.

[Thermal]

Just think of a STW campaign without the Hojo Horde and suicide daimyos reducing your competition to rebels.

Lets not forget Shimazu's horde from the west.

Alexander the pretty good makes a decent point, given that there are less units, the AI should be able to choose sensibly from the ones available.

They claim to be using Sun Tzu's art of war for the AI, doesn't mean much to me.

I think the AI will be at least ok, surely better than that of Empire's, which was a huge game with loads of units and factions, if they mess up AI on this one then they really haven't tried.

[Lemur]

Actually, the sengoku jidai period is one of the very few that makes sense for CA's Hobbesean all-against-all AI. Everybody wants to become Shogun, or be a close (preferably by marriage) ally of the dude who wins. Hmm, well, I don't know if CA can handle that second part. Allies who stick with you even when you're winning? Unthinkable.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So, what are the odds that there will be a decent AI in this one?

They've made plenty of money with terrible AI, so why change?

CR