The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

[Louis VI the Fat]

i'm quite happy with the way things are, thank you very much.

In the UK election thread you insist that Labour ruined the UK and that their policies must be reversed.

Yet whenever there is any criticism about some British policy, you insist that Britain is perfectly to your liking as it is.




Is it your position then that Labour has ran a proper economic policy the past thirteen years, ran corporate taxation and regulation policies to your liking?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Tib'

Part of your problem with this whole thing is rooted in the 24-hour news cycle ushered in by Ted Turner and company. There is a CONSTANT -- in the literal, not figurative sense -- pressure on news outlets to provide news that is compelling (and gets butts in the seats so that they can claim larger advertising fees). "Compelling," once you've deconstructed the newsies use of this term, almost always boils down to "centered on conflict." In short, they are ALWAYS looking for villains and heros because it makes good copy.

Public figures -- and Hayward became one only a very few days into this incident -- no longer have any meaningful privacy and must EXPECT any and all actions to be scrutinized and evaluated under the "hermeneutics of suspicion" that so much of the media prides itself upon. Is it reasonable to expect someone to be working on one crisis issue 18 hours a day, 7 days a week to the exclusion of all other activities? Of course not. Such a degree of strain becomes rapidly counter-productive in point of fact. Performance at such a level can be maintained only for a short period of time before the body/brain virtually demands something else. Unfortunately, the newsies work in shifts, get plenty of rest, but ALWAYS have someone on duty to keep after public figures associated with a particular crisis. One US radio host was lambasting Obama for daring to play golf for 4 hours during this crisis -- much less doing a lap of the Isle of Wight. Again, I agree that this is unreasonable and idiotic -- but I assure you that Hayward and BP are being attacked no more and no less vociferously than would a US firm in similar circumstances. I suspect our media is secretly longing for the investigation to prove that it was a Haliburton component that negligently failed -- though if that occurs, the "petit mort" the media collectively undergoes will probably drive up tobacco sales.

In addition, between cell phones, tweets, blogs, scanners and the like, virtually everything a public figure does, says, implies, or can visually be associated with because she happened to stroll in front of the venue in question while heading from point a to point b can and will be added as grist to the mill. The level of intrusiveness ushered in is preposterous by the standards of access considered appropriate 25 years ago.

[Beskar]

We do have the issue of government oversight and regulation though.

But CR is a free market, he thinks Big Oil are perfect and wouldn't willing commit any wrongs, even moral ones. He single targets BP instead of targetting the issue.

[PanzerJaeger]

But CR is a free market, he thinks Big Oil are perfect and wouldn't willing commit any wrongs, even moral ones. He single targets BP instead of targetting the issue.

According to what I've read, BP's 760 safety violations make up 97% of OSHA violations in the oil business. More here: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-...ry?id=10763042

[Crazed Rabbit]

But CR is a free market, he thinks Big Oil are perfect and wouldn't willing commit any wrongs, even moral ones. He single targets BP instead of targetting the issue.

BP is part of big oil. I have criticized BP. Now, how does that work out to me saying Big Oil is perfect?

In regards to Mr. Hayward's yachting - I don't mind, though it certainly is a gaffe. What I find offensive is when he said "I just want my life back" a bit back. Well poor multimillionaire and not exploded in the middle of the ocean you.

What I find amusing, in a cynical way at the hypocritical rhetoric, is how Obama's spokesman attacks Hayward for yachting with his family but then excuses the president for going to golf by saying:

"I think that a little time to himself on Father's Day weekend probably does us all good as American citizens,"

Wow, how very kind of Obama to do good for America by playing golf. What a kind soul and generous spirit to put the people first and help them by playing golf.

Maybe its time we prevented companies from evading taxes and safety regulations through the use of offshore havens.

Yeah! We could forbid foreign vessels from even entering international waters near our shores. Of course, we'll have to inspect them to make sure they're in compliance. Maybe even land some officers on with helicopters.

Or, we could stop this foolish protectionism and realize we live in a global economy and the best way to not drive away companies is to lower our very high corporate income tax.

CR

[Beskar]

In regards to Mr. Hayward's yachting - I don't mind, though it certainly is a gaffe. What I find offensive is when he said "I just want my life back" a bit back. Well poor multimillionaire and not exploded in the middle of the ocean you.

Watch out CR, you might turn into your worst nightmare at this rate. Me.

[Idaho]

In the UK election thread you insist that Labour ruined the UK and that their policies must be reversed.

Yet whenever there is any criticism about some British policy, you insist that Britain is perfectly to your liking as it is.

Is it your position then that Labour has ran a proper economic policy the past thirteen years, ran corporate taxation and regulation policies to your liking?

He's a Tory. He has a list of knee-jerks. Top of which is foreigners telling us what to do, second is the rabble getting upperty. He would defend the upperty rabble against foreigners every day of the week

[rory_20_uk]

Thank God the Left has so many sane balanced persons - dear Harriet anyone?

[Sigurd]

According to what I've read, BP's 760 safety violations make up 97% of OSHA violations in the oil business. More here: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-...ry?id=10763042

To be fair... 97% of violations concerns refineries, which is quite different from violations in the oil business.
BP was a quality sentric company prior to fusioning with Amoco. BP is operating in the North Sea both on British and Norwegian shelf on 45 fields and I can't find any serious incidents besides the capsizing in 1965.
However, the incidents started in other parts of the world after the merger with Amoco.

[Vladimir]

To be fair... 97% of violations concerns refineries, which is quite different from violations in the oil business.
BP was a quality sentric company prior to fusioning with Amoco. BP is operating in the North Sea both on British and Norwegian shelf on 45 fields and I can't find any serious incidents besides the capsizing in 1965.
However, the incidents started in other parts of the world after the merger with Amoco.

Whoops. So I guess it's our fault.

[Lemur]

Damn you Amoco! Wait, Amoco was British, right?

[Vladimir]

Damn you Amoco! Wait, Amoco was British, right?

Am=American

Wait one...

Never mind. Sarcasm detector low on fluid.

[Furunculus]

In the UK election thread you insist that Labour ruined the UK and that their policies must be reversed.

Yet whenever there is any criticism about some British policy, you insist that Britain is perfectly to your liking as it is.




Is it your position then that Labour has ran a proper economic policy the past thirteen years, ran corporate taxation and regulation policies to your liking?

maybe its just that i distrust the EU opinion of what is a properly taxed and regulated financial services industry, i have after all heard enough diatribes from you against the piratical ways of free-wheeling anglo-saxon capitalism.

[Furunculus]

He's a Tory. He has a list of knee-jerks.

Top of which is foreigners telling us what to do,

second is the rabble getting upperty.

He would defend the upperty rabble against foreigners every day of the week

whoa, partisan!

yes, and I'll defend that attitude against anyone who doesn't understand what representative democracy means.

wherever did you get that idea?

what does that mean, are you branding me a xenophobe?

[Lemur]

Never mind. Sarcasm detector low on fluid.

Happens to the best of us, never fear. I was hoping to tweak a Brit into responding, but no such luck.

[Slyspy]

The British invented the sarcasm detector, but as with so many old fashioned technologies it is proving difficult to modify so as to be fit for today's digital world.

[jabarto]

foolish protectionism

You don't actually believe this do you?

[Beskar]

To be fair... 97% of violations concerns refineries, which is quite different from violations in the oil business.
BP was a quality sentric company prior to fusioning with Amoco. BP is operating in the North Sea both on British and Norwegian shelf on 45 fields and I can't find any serious incidents besides the capsizing in 1965.
However, the incidents started in other parts of the world after the merger with Amoco.

I actually said this point earlier in the thread. The problems came after the privatisation which the merger with Amoco came soon after.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You don't actually believe this do you?

Why shouldn't I? It's protectionism*, and it's foolish**. A bit redundant, though.

*From wiki:

The purpose of the law is to support the U.S. merchant marine industry

** When countries retaliate, the final situation is worse for US exports and companies than before the tarrifs.

In reference to the Jones Act specifically (wiki again):

A 2001 U.S. Department of Commerce study indicates that U.S. shipyards built only 1 percent of the world's large commercial ships. Ships are virtually never ordered in U.S. shipyards unless they are for use in U.S. Shipping. The report concluded that the lack of United States competitiveness stemmed from foreign subsidies, unfair trade practices, and lack of U.S. productivity.

In other news, a federal judge has blocked the deepwater drilling ban, pointing out that the government outright lied about what the experts consulted supported:

A federal judge in New Orleans halted President Obama's deepwater drilling moratorium on Tuesday, saying the government never justified the ban and appeared to mislead the public in the wake of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill.

Judge Martin L.C. Feldman issued an injunction, saying that the moratorium will hurt drilling-rig operators and suppliers and that the government has not proved an outright ban is needed, rather than a more limited moratorium.

He also said the Interior Department also misstated the opinion of the experts it consulted. Those experts from the National Academy of Engineering have said they don't support the blanket ban.

"Much to the government's discomfort and this Court's uneasiness, the summary also states that 'the recommendations contained in this report have been peer-reviewed by seven experts identified by the National Academy of Engineering.' As the plaintiffs, and the experts themselves, pointedly observe, this statement was misleading," Judge Feldman said in his 22-page ruling.

Good.

CR

[jabarto]

Why shouldn't I? It's protectionism*, and it's foolish**. A bit redundant, though.

Protecting the everloving hell out of manufacturing industries is what gave rise to the Asian Tigers and Japan. Do you really think the fact that Japan kicked Ford out and kept high tariffs until Japanese auto manufacturers were self-sufficient had nothing to do with their rise to prominence?

[Centurion1]

Except jabarto American companies are prominent. Because of the over the top corporate income business growth is fostered and jobs are created which mommy and daddy get to pay for your material goods, the manufactures of whom you disdain but you still want their product.


Your all a bunch of damn Communist foreigners trying to take over the good old us of a

[Husar]

Am=American

Wait one...

Never mind. Sarcasm detector low on fluid.

American oil company?

[jabarto]

Your all a bunch of damn Communist foreigners trying to take over the good old us of a

Only partially correct; I'm not a foreigner.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm not a communist.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Protecting the everloving hell out of manufacturing industries is what gave rise to the Asian Tigers and Japan. Do you really think the fact that Japan kicked Ford out and kept high tariffs until Japanese auto manufacturers were self-sufficient had nothing to do with their rise to prominence?

How exactly has the Jones Act worked out for the ship construction industry? Oh, right, only 1 percent of large commercial ships are built in the US. This was no infant industry protection. It was a handout, a crutch never to be withheld. The shipping construction industry likely doesn't even try to be globally competitive, and they know they'll never have to compete at home.

Also, I very much doubt that ship building was an infant industry in the US when this was passed (1920s).

CR

[Myrddraal]

The number crunching column of private eye has some fascinating stats at times. I quote:

11 People killed in an accident on oil rig leased by British company BP, resulting in four presidential visits, a $1.6 bn clean-up and the establishment of $20bn compensation fund in two months.

15,000+ People killed in accident at Bhopal plant owned by American company Union Carbide, resulting in 0 presidential visits, no clean-up and $470m compensation in 25 years.

Note I realise that BP has a large American ownership and nor am I claiming that two wrongs make a right, like I said, I'm just quoting an interesting statistic.

[drone]

15,000+ People killed in accident at Bhopal plant owned by American company Union Carbide, resulting in 0 presidential visits, no clean-up and $470m compensation in 25 years.

Technically, the Bhopal plant was owned by Union Carbide India Limited, an Indian subsidiary. A vital legality that saved Union Carbide's hide somewhat, even if the then-CEO still has an extradition warrant pending. Union Carbide owned 51% of UCIL, the rest owned by Indian investors and the Indian government. If UC had been smarter, the subsidiary would have been named something completely unrelated to Union Carbide, like maybe Eveready Industries. Maybe BP should have left the Amoco name on US operations.

Regarding cleanup, the Indian government took over the site after the leak, and UCIL worked to clean up the site, both before and after Union Carbide sold off it's interest in UCIL to McLeod-Russell. So there has been at least an appearance of a cleanup, but it will probably be a long time before the area is safe. Three big differences between the disasters: at Bhopal the leak was stopped within 12 hours, and the value of the expelled methyl isocyanate gas pales in comparison to the oil that BP is currently misplacing, and BP will still be able to (and wants to) operate in the spill zone.

The compensation Union Carbide offered was $350 million, the Indian government wanted 10 times that. For some reason, the government settled for the $350 million, plus interest. Why the government agreed, I have no idea, but they clearly failed at haggling class. There are several other instances where the Indian government or courts let Union Carbide and/or UCIL off the hook financially. I suspect we will see much the same with the Gulf spill.

Hopefully we get a song out of the Gulf spill that is the equal of RevCo's Union Carbide (either Bhopal or West Virginia mix).

[Tellos Athenaios]

And perhaps another major difference is that while crude oil is bad, at least it can be cleaned up efficiently and quickly (even if the USA doesn't want it, apparently: I refer to the earlier post of Fragony here); whereas methylisocyanate is rather different kettle of dead and thoroughly decontaminated fish.

[Myrddraal]

Two wrongs make a wrong, two rights make a right, but maybe a wrong and a right makes hypocrisy. I'm not pretending that BP shouldn't pay for it's responsibility, but the US government should be asking quietly, before anyone starts remembering past behaviour.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Happens to the best of us, never fear. I was hoping to tweak a Brit into responding, but no such luck.

So.... you wanted to use sarcasm to snare a Brit.

Severe tactical error there, what?