The Trouble in Waiting [Concluded]

[Captain Blackadder]

unvote woad&fangs.

vote civplaya

I go with consensous

[civplayah]

I really thought we could win this one, but we can't. That is, if I die. I could argue with Renata, but I'd rather not.

Congrats, whoever the mafia is, you've managed to win the game flawlessly.

[civplayah]

Also, to Death is Yonder,

So civplayah, who do you think is the 2nd mafia then, since you seem convinced of ATPG's innocence. The tone in this post sounds vindictive even, are you going to attempt to lynch woad today and come up with a half-baked story about how therefore so and so must be guilty tomorrow?

I'll like an answer on that

Honestly, I don't have an answer. It's a good argument, and you've caught me. It's too bad I'm a townie.

[seireikhaan]

Round was over a few hours ago, gonna get writeup started.

[seireikhaan]

Ok, maybe panic wasn't the right word for it. “Extreme unease”? Yes, that was a better phrase for what I was feeling. Following a short discussion, I was handed Civplayah. Maybe they were right. But it still felt like a dark cloud was hanging over the whole of us, an ominous aura. Either way, Jannette took up her task as per her usual custom, creating for herself a rapier, which she used to end Civplayah in two short strokes. The rest of us looked about the room at each other, almost expecting two of us to emblazon the rest of us with bullets or magic arrows or holy hand grenades or whatever was being used to make people disappear each night. Yet... nothing.


“Alrighty folks, we're done here for now,” Jannette tweeted. “Now, off to transience again!” She continued, waving us off. “Sleep tight!” I stalked off to my quarters for the night, not sure what to make of what might happen next.





Tally:

Civplayah 4(Everyone but Civplayah)
Woad 1(Civplayah)


Alive: 4


CaptainBlackadder
Death is Yonder
Renata
woad&fang

Lynched: 5

Romanic (D1)
Arepeggiate (D2)
Beskar (D3)
Askthepizzaguy (D4)
Civplayah (D5)


Slain: 8

Frozen in Ice (N1)
Skooma Addict (N1)
Diana Abnoba (N2)
Splitpersonality (N2)
Pinman (N3)
Secura (N3)
God Emperor (N4)
Landlubber (N4)

[civplayah]

Ohhh, we must have lynched a mafia before, because if we didn't the game would have ended.

[seireikhaan]

I was sitting on a marble bench the next morning, impatiently tapping my foot, waiting for news. My nerves were becoming increasingly shot as the seconds ticked by. I was started by a faint pop behind me, only to find Jannette smoothing her jacket out. “Morning, John,” she whistled. “Isn't this exciting? We'll find out if you've helped lead the group to victory!” I just swiveled on the bench away from her, feeling ill. I couldn't believe that, even now, she was still the same appallingly chipper woman.


There it was. The tell tale sounds of footsteps against the marble floor, coming from the privacy quarters. Did we do it? I felt my spirit lift against the shadow of doubt hovering over me. Out from the hallway stepped Renata and woad&fangs, each with a smirk upon their face. “... Have you two seen Captain Blackadder or Death is Yonder?” I asked them. Renata tilted her head to the right in some kind of thoughtful maner.

“Well.... I guess you could say that,” she said. She winked to the man beside her. They both held their right hands aloft, and a jet black dagger materialized in each. “Its all over, Heathen....” They leaned forward to start into a sprint, when....


“CONGRATULATIONS!” A new voice rang out from nowhere. Streams of confetti shot across the room from unknown sources, and the knives disappeared from their hands. Trumpets and trombones could be heard but not seen. A marble platform appeared in the middle of the room, as well as two new workers, who ushered woad&fangs and Renata onto it. Several simultaneous pops clicked at once, and suddenly the room was filled to the brim with everyone from the past week or so, all whole and healthy, if a bit dazed. From behind me, Jannette was clapping excitedly, smiling as always.


“Wha... what? How? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY?” I cried out in near tears. Jannette briskly stepped up to the platform where woad&fangs and Renata stood, looking about as stunned as myself.


“Congrats to both of you, you did an excellent job!” Jannette congratulated them. “Its been a while since we've seen such an excellent performance by the mafia!”


“The... the mafia?” myself, woad, and Renata all queried at once. “Oh yes, you two were the mafia. That's what we call 'the intruders' in this exercise,” she explained. “Wait.... exercise?!” we screamed. “This was just an exercise!”


“Oh, yes, of course sillies. People can't actually die up here,” she said with a wink to me.


“But... but... but.... whyyyyyyyyy?” I cried. “Why all this?”


Jannette looked quite puzzled. “Isn't that obvious? It really does get dreadfully boring up here. I mean, there's not even any internet!” she shook her head a bit. “I was to help get this exercise going by telling dear woad and Renata here that everyone was plotting against The Boss, so they naturally took up what was a sacred duty. And quite well, to reiterate. I'm just happy I was able to go back home while you were in transience, otherwise I'd have been a week or more without facebook! Can you imagine? Oh, well... I guess you can, but oh well. Anyways, yes, this was to liven things up in this dull place. It sure beats Bingo, doesn't it?” She winked again.


“Now, for you two, I have a prize, of course! For such an excellent job and winning the exercise, I present you with something you'll be able to use once you're finished here.” Jannette pulled a few slips of paper out of her jacket pocket and handed two slips each to woad and Renata.


Woad read the lettering aloud. “Good for one free entree with the purchase of another of equal or greater value.... to Bennigans. Wait, where are we all heading when we're done with this?” Jannette just winked at him one last time.


“Well, toodles everyone, I'll see you in a week or so for Twister!”


TOTAL MAFIA VICTORY!



ArepeggiateTHIS
Askthepizzaguy
Beskar
CaptainBlackadder
Civplayah
Death is Yonder
Diana Abnoba
God Emperor
Frozen in Ice
Landlubber
Pinman
Renata- MAFIA
Romanic
Secura
Skooma Addict
splitpersonality
woad&fang- MAFIA

[Death is yonder]

I will say this much: The distancing vote between woad and Renata on round one, plus his incorrect vote on me this round, is indicative of their partnership. I would also suggest that it was indeed Renata who killed off Diana and Split, for very smart reasons.

Yes, that just means the kills will drop to one when woad or Renata is lynched.

You could always drop the kill number down to one now, and pretend I was guilty.

I know you're speaking purely for the "benefit" of the people reading the thread other than me, so I won't bother.

Big fat hint: Renata is guilty.

Ahh the shame

Good game mafia

Well played.

And well done to ATPG too, you got it all right, but we didn't listen.

Ahhhhhhh.

Thanks Khaan for hosting this game

Looks like the curse of Khaan is back eh?

[Askthepizzaguy]

And well done to ATPG too, you got it all right, but we didn't listen.

I thought about it too much on that last round. I should have stuck with my original case on Renata and woad&fangs. It's nice to know the scumdar still works... what was it, 5/5 in the last two small games alone?

I was right about Renata due to who got killed, and I was right about woad based on his scum behavior. And then when woad picked me over Renata, it just confirmed everything for me.

Can't win 'em all. I am always looking at things from different angles and wondering what if I were wrong. I gotta stop doing that. My apologies to civplayah... I should have just shut up and let Blackadder, et al, vote for woad, as they might have done if I hadn't just given it a rest and hoped people followed my case from the round prior.

Congrats Woad and Renata. Thank you Khaan for an excellent game.

[Romanic]

It's a good thing that I didn't post during the last day because I had DiY and civplayah as mafia partners

Good job Renata and woad&fangs!!

Not happy at ATPG for lynching me on day 1!

And thanks for the game khaan.

[Diana Abnoba]

Congrats to the mafia. Great game, thanks to Khaan for hosting.

[Pinman]

Congrats Woad and Renata :)

You sure had me fooled.

[woad&fangs]

Thanks for hosting, khaan

ATPG, if I may offer some advice...Try to focus on quality of evidence rather than quantity. I think the sheer amount of arguments you had against me worked in my favor because your weak/nonexistent cases against me made your good cases seem petty as well.

Congrats to my partner, Renata.

This is the first time I've survived a game as the mafia! Woohoo!

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would like to post my endgame perspective, sort of a tradition these days. I would also like to preface this with: I have plenty of flaws and I am clearly not always right, especially when it counted this game. But I still feel there's something relevant in the following analysis and commentary.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No no nononononono..... you misunderstand. If you want my head, it will cost yours. I'll just keep repeating the call until I get what I want.

If you accept those conditions, I'll vote for myself. I won't leave it up to random.org.

If you accept, it is a 100% chance of your death and mine. Are you ready to die?

Comment:

When I make challenges like this on the first round, it means I'm dead serious and I'm ready to die, because I'm a vanilla townie and I don't care if I die round one. Then, I am not a distraction on the final rounds of the game where people almost instinctively want me dead "just in case". I'm not usually murdered right away because I am the definition of lynch bait.

If I did this challenge tactic as mafia I could easily die, and leave my one partner helpless. Bad bad move as mafia, too high-risk, and no real gain. It didn't help me survive a couple rounds later from the lynch, you see. It doesn't impress anyone.

Here, it was a dumb move because Romanic wasn't mafia. But if he was, it ramps up the pressure to an extreme level, and that's what you tend to have to do as townie... pressure the mafia. A miss on my part, but I kept it but because Romanic is as stubborn as me. A compliment, but we can see where that stubbornness can cause issues.

Lynching you was way too easy. IMO you were innocent, unless Khaan says otherwise.

Comment:

Good to say, bad to believe. However, I want active participation from the dead, and this encourages that. If Romanic were mafia, I'd still want to hear his lies and see if I couldn't detect subtle variations. Every bit of information, even lies, are things I can comb for anomalies. That's why I make comments like this; it's useful to me if Rom was town or mafia, and thus it seems a good move, to me.

vote: Pinman

Romanic wasn't interested in responding to Pizza's request for a vote on Pinman, but Pinman did respond, in reverse.

Comment:

A blip on my radar. I notice when people try to use my arguments or my name as added weight for their own cases. Mafia do that more often than town, but it was also possible Renata just agreed with me. But I note that for later... just in case there are additional blips.

vote: Beskar
Admit your guilt!

I already noted why this sounded strange. For more on woad&fangs, just re-read this post.

vote: Pizza

I've just got a nagging feeling about him.

Comment:

Falsely triggers my scumdar. Who votes for me round 1 and round 2, based on nothing?

This was a false reading for me, because ultimately Secura wasn't mafia, obviously.... but also, mafia seem to know better than to do that, because then it results in:

No you don't.

You voted for me right off the bat, on the first round. There was nothing to "have a feeling" about.

This doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Why lie in a vanilla game unless you're mafia.

unvote, vote: Secura

However, I follow up.

To be quite honest, there's no point in me trying to argue the toss about this, as I don't have neither the time (this is my only day off work for the next nine days) nor even half the capability as a player to out-argue Pizza; if y'all wish to waste a lynch on a vanilla townie, I'm not going to stop you.

Comment:

This, plus speaking with her in private, lead me to believe she was innocent based on her pulse being exactly what I remember as baseline and typical for Secura. There was no deviation from standard. Which means I did this:

Okay.

Too apologetic for me. Strange shift in tone between this and the post before it.

unvote, vote: ArpeggiateTHIS

I'm systematically looking for odd behavior... and missing all my targets so far. But, this behavior generates discussion and reactions from townies and mafia alike, for later analysis. That's why I do this stuff.

Vote: Renata

Reason: Diana and Split just died, plus I am still alive, plus some of her posts so far. Ignoring woad's R1 vote on her, the previous "blip" on the radar, plus given the list of players remaining, I didn't figure those specific two would be DIY, Blackadder, landlubber, or civplayah's kill choices. It just reeked Renata.

(Now she will tell me it was all woad's idea, taking some of the wind out of my sails. That's good though, I can handle it; it builds character)

Deflection from what?

I know EXACTLY why AtPG is voting me. Superficially sensible, but wrong, Pizza.

I note that Renata was reading my mind here. She knew why I thought she was guilty.

Oh?

You seem to have developed psychic powers all of a sudden. Please, tell me why I am voting for you.

I call her on it immediately. Plus this.

You know who has ESP, psychic powers, and other mental abilities beyond that of normal men? Renata in general, but mafia specifically.

As you wish.

Unvote, vote: Beskar

However, I still say Renata is scummy for the same reasons.

We had a nice wagon on Renata.... shame.

See the dead might be proven innocent, but that doesn't mean they know who is guilty. I unfortunately had to learn this the hard way this game.... as did everyone else when Pinman later accused me. That's really the moral for this game... the dead don't have special knowledge either.

Hey, look at me... I lost about 100 IQ points when I died. What the heck happened there? I guess the brain is the first thing to decompose.

unvote; vote: Beskar

So mafia don't use me as a lynch target constantly, and I have to battle the hordes of bad arguments which will end up with us losing the game, because they cannot accept I am not guilty.

Comment:

Doesn't make sense in a vanilla game with only a few votes, especially when it caps you for good. Which makes me a total hypocrite of course, but tu quoque isn't grounds for dismissing this point. It is a good point, and I need to take it to heart more. I've been voting myself or threatening my own death too much lately.

If, for example:

Askthepizzaguy- lynch
CaptainBlackadder- murder
Civplayah- murder
Death is Yonder- lynch
God Emperor- murder
Landlubber- murder
Renata
woad&fang


Only 2 lynches remain. I am an incorrect lynch. But I agree on Renata.

Vote: Renata

By now, enough time has passed and enough people have died that full analysis of the game usually reveals the guilty parties. I've done this as a standard procedure on almost every single game I've been townie in the last several dozen games as townie. And I've been here enough times as mafia, that I know what mafia typically do in these situations, if they are good players IMO. The endgame tactical situation is the hardest for the mafia to avoid giving scumtells in. It's pressure, and you must reveal your hand as well by voting the incorrect party.

Townies have a hit/miss ratio of maybe 1:2 or 1:3 in the endgame, but mafia almost always have a miss ratio of 100%. As a result, I will almost reflexively vote anyone who votes me at this point, especially if they haven't shown any indication of thinking I am scummy until now, because mafia play the game round-by-round... doing whatever is best for them that round, and then working on the next round when it comes. Townies generally point to scum and follow up on later rounds... it's not as compartmentalized because they aren't concerned with survival on every round, just the later ones. At least that's my view. Here I really thought it was Renata based on the kill pattern and what I know of her, especially with me still alive. I was meant to be lynched this round. So when dead proven townie Pinman calls for my head, you know who will follow? Every mafioso in the game... it was their plan anyway, so it just got easier.

Vote: Askthepizzaguy

With no reason, and given the tactical situation, this indicated very highly that he was a scum. No pressure on me until now, no case (even now) and following the bad advice of a dead proven townie. That's what mafia do in these situations, almost 100% of the time.

After warning him off, and saying to vote Renata, he refused. I considered this to be the game over mistake if he was townie, so it was time to put pressure on him.

This assumes that you are innocent. If you are mafia, then all you have to do is control the course of the discussion today and you win. I know that you are more than capable of doing this and there is a confirmed innocent claiming that you (or Renata) are likely behind the killings.

But this post cemented it for me. Notice the change in tone from warning him off to accusing him of deadly scummery.

"This assumes that you are innocent." is just the kind of oddball comment a scum makes.

You know why it is bad? It is because this is obviously not directed at me. Woad isn't talking to ME here, he's speaking to everyone else in the game, while addressing me.

Mafia do this all the time, because mafia lie all the time, and mafia vote with malice aforethought and with the intention of causing destruction, death, and despair. That difference leads to different thought patterns and behavior. When they lie, they fall back into time-honored patterns of lying behavior. The lie pattern here is that he's not really talking to me or trying to convince me of anything or even really thinking I am guilty. His post indicates nothing except "if I am mafia" and he's settled on that with a closed mind.

Just as a mafia would.

A townie would have given me a little bit more credit. Even Pinman, my accuser, actually listened to me when I started hammering him in private over his accusation. He promised to look over my case on woad one more time. Even MY ACCUSER gives me more credit than this, because my accuser was a known townie. He actually has in his mind the option that I could be innocent, even if he doesn't believe it at the time.

That is why.... I reach out to townies. They have doubt. Mafia have no doubt. Like an evil cult, they are absolutely convinced of their own position based on supernatural knowledge... the kind of knowledge you only get from being scum. Which is that Askthepizzaguy MUST DIE in order for mafia to win here.

Townies don't know that for certain. Townies accept there is another option. Mafia will not.... they might fake it, rarely, but here on the final rounds, they will 99% of the time close their minds to me and accuse me of being scum or just ignore me entirely. I detected this streak of closed mindedness and false accusation from woad. And then I examined him more closely and saw all the other tells I laid out in my big accusation posts. I was a man enraged by that point....

Yes, so of course you choose incorrectly. But at least the dead guy told you to do it.

I don't buy it, scum.

edit:
Waiting for some dead, confirmed innocent to suggest an incorrect lynch, at this stage of the game, is the most common (and most effective) way of getting another failed lynch and a victory for mafia.

What you just did is hugely scummy. I've been waiting for you to make a mistake, and this is it, woadsy.

QFT.

What are you trying to pull? This isn't my first game of mafia, woad.

I get passionate. Once I am convinced someone is bovine-excrementing me I really do change from open-minded Askthepizzaguy to a man with a bloody hook for some reason.

To all I falsely accuse when I am in such a mode: I am sorry.

• No.... that's obviously and demonstrably false.
• Straw Man argument, to boot.

Those two things are incredibly bad form and townies rarely do these things. Straw man, maybe. But that's when they think someone is scum and are really pressing their lynch.... I find that the straw man tactic is almost universally understood to be a no-no by townies looking casually for leads.

But making known false statements in a vanilla game is almost proof of scum to a very high degree. I should have pressed this more.... I could prove here that it was bogus, and I should have.

Specifically, this line:

O, but you sure tried to imply that you were above suspicion. In fact, the entire crux of your argument so far has been that "I am innocent so obviously that other guy is guilty".

Wasn't even close to reality, and it should have been objectively obvious to everyone that it was dead wrong. This should have been the centerpiece but instead of that tell, I focused on less persuasive and less conclusive tells.

I forget sometimes how to be a prosecutor and I just throw the kitchen sink at people. I overlook the bloody glove/fingerprints and I focus on the plane tickets.

This is total bull.

Why do you play a game of mafia? To catch the bad guys, or BE the bad guy.

I truly believe this.... but I am seeing more and more that not everyone agrees with me.

Why do you play mafia if you only show up to randomly vote, and in the critical rounds not make your own assessment or listen to your own gut or read the thread before voting?

I don't understand this behavior from townies. But mafia "follow the dead" for false added credibility to their own erroneous votes. It should be a tell because town shouldn't do it... but they do....

You were FINE with coming up with your own suspects until now, when you'd be held most accountable for them. You haven't been following the dead's suggestions until this moment. You are trying to act all innocent, "just following suggestions...". Dude, this is the critical moment. You don't blindly follow a dead guy here.

I should have followed my own advice, and just let people decide on the final round. I could have been wrong on either of these two, after all. And if I am wrong and people listen to me, we get.... total mafia victory.

That's not why you voted for me. That's bull.... you just said that you voted me because a dead guy did. Now, it's a "feeler" vote?

Also more conclusive than the rest of it. I should have focused on his shifting reasons for voting for me, because it was obvious quicksand he couldn't stand on. I let it pass with only one comment... more was needed.

As for potential partners, would you like Lurker #1, Lurker #2, or Lurker #3 because they all seem identical to me.

What a dodge.

This was a dodge. I knew what woad was doing, which was to leave all his options open next round and avoid pissing off a townie. But his response proved that he wasn't even looking for suspects, because he had none.... literally, he had none, and not only that, said everyone else in the game was exactly the same.

No.... you'd have an impression to differentiate them if you were townie. Based on: voting patterns, posting behavior, post content, kill patterns.... something.

Not trying to prove anything, as it is done.... I am just trying to point this out as a subtle difference between mafia and town that is more reliable than usual.

Hand over your fangs, because you're clearly not predatory enough to use them.

Not necessary, at all, but I am still strongly considering sigging this line for emphasis. Woad is totally better than this as townie. When I see someone doing things they are CLEARLY better than as townie, I always point it out. I don't know why... I'm not sure how constructive it is... but at this point I was just hoping someone would see that woad was not being himself.

THE EYEROLL!!! THERE IT IS!!!

Oh how I've missed you mister eyeroll smiley.... I haven't seen you since every mafia I've ever accused.

Hold on, let me go grab it from Star Wars. Where's Subotan's quote?

"And apparently, ATPG is always right. "- Subotan.

Why is it you mafia always roll your eyes at me? Can you tell me this, because I really want to know. Townies don't roll their eyes at me because when I am wrong, they generally just state it. One or two argue with me defiantly, and some of them kick my butt at arguing because they aren't actually scum. Some knock the wind out of my sails with a single line that disproves everything I just said.

But no, the mafia struggle a bit, and when they get frustrated, it's EYEROLL TIME.

I'm not kidding though! This has happened SO MANY TIMES!

I'm genuinely curious, because a scum tell shouldn't be as simple as rolling your eyes at someone. What causes this?

I will say this much: The distancing vote between woad and Renata on round one, plus his incorrect vote on me this round, is indicative of their partnership. I would also suggest that it was indeed Renata who killed off Diana and Split, for very smart reasons.

You will all reverse your votes and place them on woad&fangs, now.

I don't have mind control abilities, but sometimes I like to pretend. Where's my danged "charisma" when I REALLY need it?

That's not the point. The point is, woad is definitely trying to get someone lynched, but he's basing it off of an erroneous dead guy.

COME ON, PEOPLE, you've been mafia before. Picture this.
It's the final round of the game. You're up against a still fairly large town, and it's a vanilla game. You're worried that accusations against people will backfire. You haven't actually been hunting mafia. So you don't have a case.
Your plan? Wait for someone to make a bad case.
Oh look, a dead guy says that pizza is guilty.... and he just voted for Renata.
Gotcha....
Now Renata, good or evil, will vote for Pizza. With the added weight of Pinman's accusation, the lynch cannot possibly fail. All you have to do is vote for this guy, and the game is over.
How could you, as mafia, possibly resist this move?
Think about it. You're not giving me a fair shake, and you're ignoring what is OBVIOUSLY the scummiest move in the game.

I was hoping this would ring true to someone. It does follow, does it not? Or am I crazy? I know people didn't exactly buy/fully understand my "mafia ESP" theory, but this one seems more intuitive.

You have nothing to lose by merely considering my suggestion. Do you guys consider yourselves mafia players, or casual fanboys? This is the big leagues, the vanilla games, where you don't get help. You have to guess based on subtlety, and on psychology, on murder patterns, and on votes. I am even giving you a big hint, this current path loses the game for the town. Consider that I am telling the truth, while you have the time and can afford to, and GO BACK and re-read the thread until you see what I am saying.

Please.

Bold: QFT

This is why I love vanilla games. Pure and simple. I hate detectives, they RUIN the fun and mystery of the game, IMO.

Also: I don't think I plead like this when I am scum... I don't think? Anyone know an instance of me doing this as scum, point it out to me for a free pizza.

You're on your own. Re-think the situation, and give pizza a fighting chance.

Be the pizzaguy. It's your turn to solve one.

I honestly thought this would move someone.... emotionally, logically, whatever. Nothing...

I pulled out everything in my playbook and failed. I clearly do not have the persuasive power I thought I had.

What did I do wrong? I obviously need to improve.

All I'll say is: The woad is a lie. The pizza isn't. *Applause in the courtroom*

I loves you Apreg.

Same for Beskar, Pinman (later on), Secura, and especially civplayah. Most of the peeps in my camp were dead though...

You were offline and there was only a little bit of time left; I could have worded it better. I meant that I didn't think you would return.

vote: woad?

Round not over, but nearly over.... I am still trying.

I give myself this much: I don't really roll over and die the way I used to. It's more with the gnashing and clawing and screaming, lately.

No you shouldn't.

You should sig-ify where I accused you of being mafia.

Yes?

ATPG, if I may offer some advice...Try to focus on quality of evidence rather than quantity. I think the sheer amount of arguments you had against me worked in my favor because your weak/nonexistent cases against me made your good cases seem petty as well.

Noted.

Brevity is not something I do very well.

If I might offer you some advice, the tactics were fundamentally sound, but the execution left lots and lots of clues; and the partnership between you and Renata became too obvious to me by the end. That's risky. What if they had listened to me?

The above is my fallible opinion, take it as you will, don't read it if you don't want to.

[seireikhaan]

This is why I love vanilla games. Pure and simple. I hate detectives, they RUIN the fun and mystery of the game, IMO.

Also: I don't think I plead like this when I am scum... I don't think? Anyone know an instance of me doing this as scum, point it out to me for a free pizza.

Yay, I'm not the only one who can't stand detectives. Iirc, I haven't made a proper detective since my first game. Something to bear in mind for the future?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yay, I'm not the only one who can't stand detectives. Iirc, I haven't made a proper detective since my first game. Something to bear in mind for the future?

Not to hijack your thread with a different discussion, but a quick response.

Here are the positives about detectives;

• They can be used to give the town a fighting chance when the mafia are more numerous, or can recruit, or are otherwise overpowered, to even the odds.
• Person who gets detective role probably enjoys themselves even if they only survive a few rounds. Yay, I'm a detective!
• Person who scans the mafia early on feels good about themselves.

Here are the negatives about detectives:

• People trust their judgment, even when they come to the wrong conclusions, and end up just following obediently. Then the game is lost.
• Often times, no one but the detective and the mafia contribute anything of substance. The rest of the players are on auto-pilot.
• Traditional scum finding techniques such as vote pattern analysis, kill analysis, post analysis, and behavioral/tactical analysis goes out the window and those skills get rusty.
• Can find a mafia on N1 or N2 and then the game is pretty much usually over, leading to a short and anticlimactic game. Less fun for all.
• Certain notorious players can't catch a break and are almost always scanned right away. This leads to meta-gaming and less fun for certain player.
• There's no mystery. If I think Sasaki Kojiro is guilty, I have to come up with reasons why and argue him to death, or offer my head in exchange for his, or something. However, with a detective role I can claim detective and there's almost nothing Sasaki Kojiro can do. Therefore, clever and crafty players cannot weasel out of trouble. And so therefore, there's no real challenge, just lucky guesses. Either they've been scanned as guilty or they haven't, and then certain people get scanned, and then certain people get murdered.
• Player who lurks and is not a usual investigation target is more likely to win the game simply by coasting through and accidentally hitting the detective.
• Individual townies have less incentive to try to hunt for mafia, because they are waiting to be led. They are unwilling to lead.
• This breaks down the discussion a bit, and then it's harder to catch the mafia.

Ultimately, a detective is an overpowered weapon that can make or break a game based on one lucky scan. But once the scan is lucky, the lynch isn't about luck, or even skill.... it's simple point and click, mafia go squish now. I reveal, I'm detective, mafia dies. There's no real incentive for an individual to try hard. As townie, if you're not the detective, your opinion matters for a few rounds until the detective reveals, and then you don't matter anymore. If you're mafia, you can try hard and just get sweeped by a lucky detective. All your clever plans and tactics and charisma and skill mean nothing.... because someone scanned you.

Lame.

Then you get detectives who privately reveal, and have this other person reveal their scans for them. And then the mafia can't really hit back. This is fine in a game like Capo III when there are 20 scumbags at a given time and investigations aren't very conclusive and there's too many mafia to hit all at once, so they can walk around openly for a while, even work together. But without some kind of massive advantage given to the mafia, detectives are overpowered, unnecessary, and not fun. At least with a vigilante when you guess wrong, an innocent person dies. A double-edged sword.

But yeah, you're not alone. 100% accurate detectives have their place, but they are too commonplace.

[ArpeggiateTHIS]

Thanks for hosting, khaan

ATPG, if I may offer some advice...Try to focus on quality of evidence rather than quantity. I think the sheer amount of arguments you had against me worked in my favor because your weak/nonexistent cases against me made your good cases seem petty as well.

Congrats to my partner, Renata.

This is the first time I've survived a game as the mafia! Woohoo!

I knew it! I knew it! And yet again, nobody listened to Arpeg.

Shame I couldn't really pull up a decent argument against you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Full marks for being all over woad before I was, Arpeg.

What did you see that I didn't see?

[ArpeggiateTHIS]

Full marks for being all over woad before I was, Arpeg.

What did you see that I didn't see?

As in my argument, I saw his panicky, super-stealthy OMGUS vote for me on the day I got lynched. Of course, that's what I made it out to be, but it was a good hunch after all!

[Renata]

Yay! That was fun.

I have no time today, but plenty of comments tomorrow.

[Renata]

Thank you to my scumbuddy woad for the plotting (did you ever think we'd pull it off? I didn't) and to Khaan for the opportunity to play a mafia role in a vanilla game, which is just awesome-sauce.

And to the townies, for allowing it to happen.

I thought about it too much on that last round. I should have stuck with my original case on Renata and woad&fangs. It's nice to know the scumdar still works... what was it, 5/5 in the last two small games alone?

I was right about Renata due to who got killed, and I was right about woad based on his scum behavior. And then when woad picked me over Renata, it just confirmed everything for me.

You did very well (obviously), even if some of your reasons weren't right. Woad picked split, for instance; and I picked Diana largely for the reason I stated in the thread, not directly to weaken you. I was actually thinking to kill you that night, but woad wanted you alive. Speaking only for myself, I wasn't able to put nearly as much thought into the night kills (except the last one) as I wanted to -- one night fell on a weekend, and otherwise I was just really busy.

Also, woad's jumping on you on the day you were lynched actually was a miscalculation -- at the time he thought the same as you argued, that a single mislynch would win it for us. Nothing to do but roll with it once that happened. Like I told him at the time, though, I'm actually glad it worked out that way, and doubly so given the outcome. It's not often you get to openly support your mafia partner like that. That was extremely entertaining in a strange way. I still can't believe it worked. After Blackadder's vote I was all ready to concede.

Can't win 'em all. I am always looking at things from different angles and wondering what if I were wrong. I gotta stop doing that. My apologies to civplayah... I should have just shut up and let Blackadder, et al, vote for woad, as they might have done if I hadn't just given it a rest and hoped people followed my case from the round prior.

Congrats Woad and Renata. Thank you Khaan for an excellent game.

I'm not sure whether you under-estimated us or over-estimated us -- maybe a little of both.

Congrats Woad and Renata :)

You sure had me fooled.

Thanks, Pinman. I suppose my "is he trying to trick me into giving myself away?" reaction is very similar to my "is he trying to trick me into voting for Pizza?" reaction.

[civplayah]

Ah, ha! I knew it!

But you guys had everyone else fooled. :( Good job!