The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

[Craterus]

So just to get this straight, you can actually die from a Holmgang challange, the higher the score the better and you can challange anyone.

What exactly does it do? (Meaning does it reveal any info or items or anything)

As I understand it, a Holmgang is a duel to the death and one participant is very likely to die. Although I think I read somewhere that there could be a tie and both would survive?

Anyway, I agree with other posters that they're not to be taken lightly but, in the early rounds when there are no obvious suspects, I don't see the problem with having some 'random' challenges. It'll get us all up to speed with what's going on and might even let us know how much we can read into the write-ups.

Silver lining. :nice:

[Husar]

In the last game I was Odin and had a Holmgang stat of 8, I think the Jotun king had the same from the start, those were the highest base scores. Also if Idunna would give someone an apple for protection, the person would get a temporary buff to their holmgang stat by +1 for the following night, IIRC.

[KukriKhan]

Forgot to address those:

Yes, last game the maximum score was 10, with base values of 9. Winning a Holmgang gave a once off improvement of one to your base score. There is a system that Sigurd has created, so just because you have a higher score does not mean you will win for sure.

And yes, you can challange any living player. 6 Challanges are accepted, but only one is conducted, chosen at random by the host. You can't retract a Challange either, so do not make them lightly!

Yeah. Like:


My holmgang score is under half of what I claimed last time, so KK should beat me soundly, I am challanging him as I dont like how he is voting.


after one vote. :laugh4::laugh4: At least you spelt the name right (1 "a", not 2).

[TinCow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there may also be ulterior motives for the numerous Holmgangs. The entire reason that we are gathered here is to settle a dispute between two factions:


The Kings and Jarls of the Norse world with their retinue are gathered at Alþing to settle a dispute between King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. Harald hired an army from Jomsborg to crush Haakon, but the mighty Joms were beaten. The captain of Jomsborg is also at this þing, wanting to regain any lost stature with the Norse Kings.

The way this reads to me, King Harald Bluetooth might well have a secondary victory condition of killing Haakon Jarl, and vice versa. The Captain of Jomsborg might also have a similar motive. This is something to keep in mind when looking at who challenges who, and how they vote for lynching.

[Husar]

The way this reads to me, King Harald Bluetooth might well have a secondary victory condition of killing Haakon Jarl, and vice versa. The Captain of Jomsborg might also have a similar motive. This is something to keep in mind when looking at who challenges who, and how they vote for lynching.

That is what I thought (and then forgot again) when I got challenged, woad seems very eager for some reason and I don't know what reason that could be. :shrug:

[Ferret]

To make it clear then I serve Harald Bluetooth.

[Craterus]

I was talking to Sigurd in the chat and he said not to think about the factions too much, both sides represent the town and it's mainly for write-up purposes.

So I don't think there's any extra objectives for either side.

[Quintus.JC]

I'm suppose to serve the king of Sweden, but isn't the conflict meant to be between Denmark and Norway.

[Privateerkev]

Now that there are Jotun present, it is them vesus the rest of us.

[naut]

WIFOMS!! Oh no! :wink2:

[Privateerkev]

The way this reads to me, King Harald Bluetooth might well have a secondary victory condition of killing Haakon Jarl, and vice versa. The Captain of Jomsborg might also have a similar motive. This is something to keep in mind when looking at who challenges who, and how they vote for lynching.

I found this in round 2 of Midgard 1's writeup:


The discussion this round went along the lines of clan affiliation or no affiliation.
I intentionally left the “townies” in the no affiliation category; only Kings, Champions and War Vets belonged to a faction. This was one of the twists I put in the game. The factions were just for narrating purposes and had no meaning in the game as such. As I hoped some would accuse the none-affiliated of being Jotun as they believed all humans belonged to a faction.

Now this might have changed this game but my hunch is that it is simply "town" versus "Jotun." The factions are probably for flavor and nothing more. I would caution us against fanning any "inter-faction" flames. Infighting among the town will help the Jotun. I've been reading through Midgard 1's thread (I'm on page 19) and the town's infighting really hurt them early in the game. It kept them from uniting. In that game, the Jotun eventually won.

[Tratorix]

Geez, I miss the first days vote, and you guys manage to lynch the all-father god? :no:

[Privateerkev]

Geez, I miss the first days vote, and you guys manage to lynch the all-father god? :no:

I suspect you are Jotun... :brood:

You were missing on Day 1:
Did not vote : 2 (Motep, Tratorix)

There was only one kill on Night 1 and in Midgard 1 there was 2 kill attempts a night.

You have a 12 day hole in your posting.

And Sigurd said this earlier today:
Remember people that it is night time.

Those of you who need to send in your nightly activities must do so before the deadline later today.
It is 20:00 GMT.

I have as yet not received any.

So, I submit that Tratorix is Jotun and has just now received his PM telling him so. He missed his kill on N1 which caused the Jotun to miss a kill last night.

The Jotun most likely have at least 1 absentee member. I believe it is Tratorix. While lurking is normal for mafioso, it seems they are actually failing to get night PM's submitted.

Tomorrow we should lynch Tratorix.

[TinCow]

Now this might have changed this game but my hunch is that it is simply "town" versus "Jotun." The factions are probably for flavor and nothing more. I would caution us against fanning any "inter-faction" flames. Infighting among the town will help the Jotun. I've been reading through Midgard 1's thread (I'm on page 19) and the town's infighting really hurt them early in the game. It kept them from uniting. In that game, the Jotun eventually won.

This begs the question of why anyone would engage in Holmgang in the first place. If attacking a Jotun will likely result in death for the townie due to the Jotun being stronger, and it will not result in the Jotun being IDed (as noted earlier), then there is no legitimate reason for a townie to challenge anyone. Gods might well be different, since they are likely strong enough to defeat a Jotun in a Holmgang. There's also the question of whether there is an advantage for the Jotun themselves to challenge. Can they both challenge a Holmgang AND do night kills? If so, then they could possibly kill an extra person every night if they were lucky. If not, it might be a way of masking their kills as something more 'innocent.'

So, this leaves three plausible reasons for people to challenge for a Holmgang:
1) Townies who are bored or just roleplaying.
2) Gods who are essentially acting like vigilantes.
3) Jotun who are trying to get extra kills or disguise their hits.

This then turns into a Catch-22. We want to discourage #1, since it doesn't really help the town. However, if no one does #1, then anyone who does #2 will instantly become obvious to the Jotun. Since we do want to encourage #2 (when done accurately), that means that #1 is necessary to cover up #2. However, then #1 results in townie deaths, which we want to discourage...

I think it comes down to a balancing act. Will the town's losses due to #1 outweigh the possible advantage of killing a Jotun with #2? My personal opinion is no, simply because the odds of #2 actually resulting in a Jotun death are pretty slim. Without investigation results, such a hit is just random and likely to do more harm than good. With investigation results, a lynch could easily be obtained, making #2 unnecessary.

So, as I see it the only people who have a reason to be challenging are the Jotun, and everyone else who does it is just hurting the town.

[GeneralHankerchief]

IIRC, those who survived a Holmgang were incapacitated for a round last time.

[Privateerkev]

I haven't gone through the whole thread of Midgard 1 but it does seem that Sigurd lets some hints out in Holmgang writeups. So, there is a chance that fighting a Jotun will help even if the townie loses. Enough information might leak out to throw a spotlight on the Jotun and then get him lynched. Now, does the possible reward outweigh the risk? It doesn't seem so. Lynching is much more of a sure thing if we have the right target. Where Holmgang has the chance that you will lose, no matter how powerful you are.

And I think Jotun can fight in Holmgang and then kill the same night. I'll need to read more of the old thread to be sure though. There is a lot to go through... (54 pages!) :dizzy2:

*edit*
Those who survived Holmgang couldn't fight in the next Holmgang. But I don't know if it prevented them from doing night actions. I'll keep reading...

[Privateerkev]

Sorry for the double-post but this is a different topic.

Motep, the other person who didn't vote in Day 1 might be Jotun as well.

He hasn't been on the board since the game started.

The Jotun had 1 kill last night. I bring your attention to this from Round 8 of Midgard 1:


I was a little surprised that no-one made a challenge. If the right player had been challenged and the right player had won that challenge the town might have had a chance to win. If Stig or Alexander had been challenged by Husar, he could have removed one of them from the game. In my rules there would only be one kill attempt a night and Idun would have protected two.

By that point, the Jotun were down to two. So, according to Sigurd, putting them to 1 allows them only 1 kill.

So both Motep and Traitorix could be Jotun if we work off the assumption that there are 3 Jotun.

It is probably at least 1 of them. Might be both.

It now seems clear that at least 1, and maybe even 2, Jotun are played by inactive players. And Motep and Traitorix are two of the most inactive players we have.

[Andres]

We can use the Holmgang to put two suspects against each other.

In think it's in the towns' best interest to decide by majority vote who should challenge who and than have only one challenge, to make sure that it will indeed be the two most suspicious people who have to fight.

This will make sure that it is at least a suspect who will die in the Holmgang.

And whoever refuses to cooperate (i.e. an elected suspect refuses to challenge the other), can be lynched :brood:

To avoid any misunderstandings or any misinterpretation by the host, I suggest we vote for the Holmgang as such:

Suspect 1 : X
Suspect 2 : Y

The suspects with the most votes have to challenge each other. No other challenges are allowed.

Can we all agree on that?

[Tratorix]

I suspect you are Jotun... :brood:

You were missing on Day 1:

There was only one kill on Night 1 and in Midgard 1 there was 2 kill attempts a night.

You have a 12 day hole in your posting.

And Sigurd said this earlier today:

So, I submit that Tratorix is Jotun and has just now received his PM telling him so. He missed his kill on N1 which caused the Jotun to miss a kill last night.

The Jotun most likely have at least 1 absentee member. I believe it is Tratorix. While lurking is normal for mafioso, it seems they are actually failing to get night PM's submitted.

Tomorrow we should lynch Tratorix.

Genius. :laugh4:

Looks like I'm going to keep up my streak of getting killed in the first few days of every game I join.

[Privateerkev]

We can use the Holmgang to put two suspects against each other.

In think it's in the towns' best interest to decide by majority vote who should challenge who and than have only one challenge, to make sure that it will indeed be the two most suspicious people who have to fight.

This will make sure that it is at least a suspect who will die in the Holmgang.

And whoever refuses to cooperate (i.e. an elected suspect refuses to challenge the other), can be lynched :brood:

To avoid any misunderstandings or any misinterpretation by the host, I suggest we vote for the Holmgang as such:

Suspect 1 : X
Suspect 2 : Y

The suspects with the most votes have to challenge each other. No other challenges are allowed.

Can we all agree on that?

Seems complicated. During the day, we vote to lynch. At night, we challenge. Your proposing adding a third mechanic into this. Where does it go? Do we vote for suspects during the day while we are also voting for the lynch candidate? Or do we do it at night? The problem with doing it during the day is that I can see people confusing the multiple kinds of voting they are asked to do. The problem with doing it at night is that a lot of people aren't active enough to get 2 seperate mechanics done in 24 hours. And keep in mind that unlike doing it during the day, doing it at night would require one mechanic to take place before the other. You would have to get everyone to vote on challenge suspects. Then you'd have to get those people to challenge each other. If everyone is not active, it seems like it would be easy for a few people to derail the whole thing.

I like the spirit of what you propose but I am stuck on how to best implement it.

[Privateerkev]

Genius. :laugh4:

Looks like I'm going to keep up my streak of getting killed in the first few days of every game I join.

I notice your not refuting my claim that you are Jotun...

[seireikhaan]

And who is some sort of extinct ugly bird (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaan). "khaan" indeed.:laugh4:

I welcome our enclosure by the höslur and vébond.
:laugh4:

Well played, good sir. :bow:



Kev, I think you're chasing up the wrong tree, myself. For one, this is a whole other game from Midgard I, and we don't know exactly how things will work yet. Furthermore, there's the issue that someone could have missed out on the night phase, and come back in time to vote in the day phase. That's just not a decent reason to lynch someone, to be frank.

[Privateerkev]

But mafia were not active much this night either. Sigurd himself posted earlier that he hadn't gotten night PM's yet.

Fact: There was only 1 kill on N1.

Fact: There were two people missing on D1.

Fact: In Midgard 1, if it was down to 1 Jotun, there would only be 1 kill. Otherwise, there were 2 kills.

Fact: As of 4am US CT today, Sigurd said no one had sent night PM's yet.

Fact: According to post history, Traitorix was missing for approximately 12 days. Or at least not posting.

Fact: Motep has been gone off the board since the game started.

These are all facts and they are verifiable and undeniable.

Now, from this, I string together a theory where I admit I do some guesswork.

Theory: I believe Traitorix and/or Motep got Jotun role PM's but were not around on N1, D1, and part of N2. Therefore, them missing caused the remaining Jotun to only get off one kill on N1. Traitorix himself has not denied being Jotun. He only commented that he dies early all the time.

Now, based off these same facts, I am more than open to other theories. Let's hear them...

*edit*

And khaan, my reason for lynching them is far more valid than most reasons given in the first few days of mafia games. And you know that...

[Andres]

Seems complicated. During the day, we vote to lynch. At night, we challenge. Your proposing adding a third mechanic into this. Where does it go? Do we vote for suspects during the day while we are also voting for the lynch candidate? Or do we do it at night? The problem with doing it during the day is that I can see people confusing the multiple kinds of voting they are asked to do. The problem with doing it at night is that a lot of people aren't active enough to get 2 seperate mechanics done in 24 hours. And keep in mind that unlike doing it during the day, doing it at night would require one mechanic to take place before the other. You would have to get everyone to vote on challenge suspects. Then you'd have to get those people to challenge each other. If everyone is not active, it seems like it would be easy for a few people to derail the whole thing.

I like the spirit of what you propose but I am stuck on how to best implement it.

Vote for lynch during the day, select suspects to fight each other during the night. How is that complicated?

Look at the Holmgang as a sort of lynching. Instead of lynching one suspect, you put two suspects against each other and at least one dies.

[seireikhaan]

But mafia were not active much this night either. Sigurd himself posted earlier that he hadn't gotten night PM's yet.

Fact: There was only 1 kill on N1.

Fact: There were two people missing on D1.

Fact: In Midgard 1, if it was down to 1 Jotun, there would only be 1 kill. Otherwise, there were 2 kills.

Fact: As of 4am US CT today, Sigurd said no one had sent night PM's yet.

Fact: According to post history, Traitorix was missing for approximately 12 days. Or at least not posting.

Fact: Motep has been gone off the board since the game started.

These are all facts and they are verifiable and undeniable.

Now, from this, I string together a theory where I admit I do some guesswork.

Theory: I believe Traitorix and/or Motep got Jotun role PM's but were not around on N1, D1, and part of N2. Therefore, them missing caused the remaining Jotun to only get off one kill on N1. Traitorix himself has not denied being Jotun. He only commented that he dies early all the time.

Now, based off these same facts, I am more than open to other theories. Let's hear them...

*edit*

And khaan, my reason for lynching them is far more valid than most reasons given in the first few days of mafia games. And you know that...
Theories? I like to keep them quiet until night events have been posted.

[Privateerkev]

Vote for lynch during the day, select suspects to fight each other during the night. How is that complicated?

Look at the Holmgang as a sort of lynching. Instead of lynching one suspect, you put two suspects against each other and at least one dies.


Because at night we also challenge. So, we'd have to vote at night. And then at some point before the deadline, we'd have to get the two suspects to challenge each other. What if they are not online? Some of us only have certain windows on when they can be online. We're lucky if we get people here once in a 24 hour period.

Unless you propose maybe 12 hours of voting for suspects, and then leave 12 for the challengers to challenge each other. But 12 hours might not be enough to get everyone's input.

[Andres]

Theories? I like to keep them quiet until night events have been posted.

Fair enough.

How about using the Holmgang system to our advantage? Do you have better suggestions than mine?

There's no harm in discussing that.

[TinCow]

PK is right about the timing issue on the Holmgang vote. There is no way the town would be organized well enough to ensure that such a vote gets pulled off properly. It essentially would mean that the entire debate on who should challenge who should be conducted within the first 12 hours of the evening. I seriously doubt whether enough people will be online often enough to make that a productive or accurate vote. It would be open to serious tampering by the Jotun.

If this is really going to be done, the best option is simply to vote on it alongside the lynch vote. Simply have every person write three things during the 'vote' phase:
Vote: X
Suspect: Y
Suspect: Z

That way when the voting is done, we will have the vote for Holmgang completed and ready to issue. The town can then tell those two people that we expect them to challenge one another. If they do not challenge each other, we can lynch one of them. We can also lynch someone who challenges when they have not been given permission to do so.

There is, however, a bit of a wrench in this: enforcement. Such a system will only work if people really do believe that they have to obey it or be lynched. The first time someone violates such a self-imposed rule and gets away with it, the entire system will collapse. So, unless we're seriously committed to lynching on the basis of complaince with a vote for Holmgang, then we shouldn't bother with this. I'm undecided at the moment on whether lynching on this basis alone is valuable to us.

[Motep]

Im sorry, the guild has been crashing on me all day...

While I am insulted at PrivateerKev's accusations, I can only say that I dont blame him for suspecting me. (I dont exactly have the best track record in so far as being active...just look at my other games...). At least he is getting something done.

I like Andres' method of holmang, pick two suspects and have them duke it out. If you really suspect them, you can always lynch the survivor on the next day. Our current method is notoriously random and dangerous to the town, despite the fact that it is just soo much fun!

To speak on my behalf, I would have particiapated sooner, but for the fact that I went camping with my Father this weekend, proving myself to be an incompetent fisherman.

[seireikhaan]

Fair enough.

How about using the Holmgang system to our advantage? Do you have better suggestions than mine?

There's no harm in discussing that.
I think TinCow's nailed the problem with it. When it comes right down to it, there's simply no way of enforcing this, to be bluntly honest. There's nothing we can do to actually force the people to issue the challenges, unless we back it up with the threat of lynching. And if we do that, we can potentially hamstring ourselves in the event that other suspects arise.

The only real thing that I think the town can realistically do is to put pressure on each other to stave off the urge to immediately put forth a challenge, and to discuss who's someone who needs to be challenged, and who would be best to challenge them.

[Privateerkev]

PK is right about the timing issue on the Holmgang vote. There is no way the town would be organized well enough to ensure that such a vote gets pulled off properly. It essentially would mean that the entire debate on who should challenge who should be conducted within the first 12 hours of the evening. I seriously doubt whether enough people will be online often enough to make that a productive or accurate vote. It would be open to serious tampering by the Jotun.

If this is really going to be done, the best option is simply to vote on it alongside the lynch vote. Simply have every person write three things during the 'vote' phase:
Vote: X
Suspect: Y
Suspect: Z

That way when the voting is done, we will have the vote for Holmgang completed and ready to issue. The town can then tell those two people that we expect them to challenge one another. If they do not challenge each other, we can lynch one of them. We can also lynch someone who challenges when they have not been given permission to do so.

There is, however, a bit of a wrench in this: enforcement. Such a system will only work if people really do believe that they have to obey it or be lynched. The first time someone violates such a self-imposed rule and gets away with it, the entire system will collapse. So, unless we're seriously committed to lynching on the basis of complaince with a vote for Holmgang, then we shouldn't bother with this. I'm undecided at the moment on whether lynching on this basis alone is valuable to us.

I'm also worried that we'll be using up our lynch chances with challenge violations. Every time you lynch someone for violating this new rule we are about to make up, then you are not lynching people for meatballing, abstaining, lurking, acting different, being defensive, ect... We'd have to stop enforcing our new rule for a turn just do lynch for these normal tried and tested mafia game reasons. And once we stop enforcing it, it would be hard to take it back up.

I mean, what would have precedence? Say we have a challenge violation but someone is acting funny. Do we drop the lynch for the challenge violator and go after the person who is acting funny? If we do that, then our enforcement of the challenge rule will fail.

[Craterus]

Talk about catch 22!

Someone's wrongly suspected of being Jotun and they actually have a ridiculously low Holmgang ability. Do they challenge and essentially suicide in the Holmgang or face lynch the next day?

Sorry, I know we're going for organisation and efficiency but I think there are some serious flaws with this. However, if it's what we end up doing (hopefully with some tweaks), I'll be supportive. :nice:

[TinCow]

I mean, what would have precedence? Say we have a challenge violation but someone is acting funny. Do we drop the lynch for the challenge violator and go after the person who is acting funny? If we do that, then our enforcement of the challenge rule will fail.

Exactly the problem. I think about the best we can do is ask everyone to give a detailed explanation for their reason to challenge someone. If we can't stop the challenges, we need to focus on getting viable information out of them. It's pretty much a proven system that the more people talk, the better the town's odds are. So, let's get the challengers talking about why they are challenging in great detail. If people do not explain, let's hammer them until they do.

[Privateerkev]

I think we should just use "peer pressure" on joke-challenges the same that we do with abstains, meatballing, randoming, lurking, bandwagoning, ect...

We don't always enforce the above "rules" but everyone who violates them knows they might draw attention to themselves. I say joke-challenges should be seen the same way. Strongly discouraged but not a lynchable offense unless there are no better lynch targets. The same way that we don't lynch abstainers unless there is no one better to lynch.

*edit*

Was writing this as TC wrote his. I support his idea of grilling challengers.

[Sigurd]

Night ended...

Writeup in process.

[El Diablo]

The only issue I can see with using the Holmgang as a means of ferreting out Jotan is that from what I have heard the Jotun have a very high Holmgang score. Thus in any duel the winner is probably the Jotan?

Thus if we pick (for the sake of argument) two innocent townies (with say both low Holmgang scores) one will win and we will give the other a huge amont of suspicion due to the fact he probably has a high score and hint at being Jotun.

It sounds to me like the old way of finding out if someone was a witch.. toss her in a lake. If she drowns she was not a witch (oops) and if she can swin/float burn her at the stake...

[Privateerkev]

I looked at the end-game write-up for Midgard 1. And Stig (Jotun) fought in Holmgang when there were 2 kills on both round 5 and 6. So, it seems that fighting in Holmgang doesn't stop you from killing.

Also of note, someone who fought in Holmgang was also a kill victim. They lost the Holmgang and the writeup showed a kill attempt that found the potential kill victim not in bed. (because he was already dead from Holmgang.)

Furthermore, when someone protected a kill attempt victim, it showed in a write-up as the killing having failed. So, there only being 1 kill in our game is probably not because of a night action but because of the lack of a night action being submitted.

Another thing, Holmgang writeups did give clues in Midgard 1. Not that they should be taken as gospel but there were hints as to the indentities of the participants. A townie versus a veteran had a write-up that reflected the experience and ability of the two people. Read the Round 3 write-up of the Holmgang between Lord Otep and Orb. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1423340&postcount=614)

PS: Reading the Midgard 1 thread along side both the end-game write-up and the end-game tally is most helpful. :D

[Motep]

I looked at the end-game write-up for Midgard 1. And Stig (Jotun) fought in Holmgang when there were 2 kills on both round 5 and 6. So, it seems that fighting in Holmgang doesn't stop you from killing.

Also of note, someone who fought in Holmgang was also a kill victim. They lost the Holmgang and the writeup showed a kill attempt that found the potential kill victim not in bed. (because he was already dead from Holmgang.)

Furthermore, when someone protected a kill attempt victim, it showed in a write-up as the killing having failed. So, there only being 1 kill in our game is probably not because of a night action but because of the lack of a night action being submitted.


Right. Had we a kill action, we woould have gotten a pretty little write up, even were it stopped. Unless of course, our host is lazy, which I have yet to see signs of.

Then again, they could have all attacked one guy, but that lacks sense and would have likely been evident in the write up.

[Tratorix]

But mafia were not active much this night either. Sigurd himself posted earlier that he hadn't gotten night PM's yet.

Fact: There was only 1 kill on N1.

Fact: There were two people missing on D1.

Fact: In Midgard 1, if it was down to 1 Jotun, there would only be 1 kill. Otherwise, there were 2 kills.

Fact: As of 4am US CT today, Sigurd said no one had sent night PM's yet.

Fact: According to post history, Traitorix was missing for approximately 12 days. Or at least not posting.

Fact: Motep has been gone off the board since the game started.

These are all facts and they are verifiable and undeniable.

Now, from this, I string together a theory where I admit I do some guesswork.

Theory: I believe Traitorix and/or Motep got Jotun role PM's but were not around on N1, D1, and part of N2. Therefore, them missing caused the remaining Jotun to only get off one kill on N1. Traitorix himself has not denied being Jotun. He only commented that he dies early all the time.

Now, based off these same facts, I am more than open to other theories. Let's hear them...

*edit*

And khaan, my reason for lynching them is far more valid than most reasons given in the first few days of mafia games. And you know that...

I didn't deny being Jotun because that goes without saying. If I had stated that I wasn't Jotun, you would probably be asking why I felt the need to say it. While I can't really dispute any of your facts, I do think its a rather weak case. I haven't posted here in a while, but I have checked the fairly regularly. You seem to be very quickly jumping to conclusions. Coincidences do happen, you know.

[Privateerkev]

I didn't deny being Jotun because that goes without saying. If I had stated that I wasn't Jotun, you would probably be asking why I felt the need to say it. While I can't really dispute any of your facts, I do think its a rather weak case. I haven't posted here in a while, but I have checked the fairly regularly. You seem to be very quickly jumping to conclusions. Coincidences do happen, you know.

Well, no one is putting forth any stronger cases yet. The first couple days of mafia games are usually full of meatballing, randomness, and general distractions.

Now, I have real lynch targets in front of me. I have admitted the holes in my logic. I have stated clearly what the facts are. And I have stated clearly where I am making guesses.

But, it is not even day 2 yet. We don't have much to go on. But what we do know is that for some reason, the Jotun missed a kill last night. That probably wouldn't happen unless Jotun were absent in real life. And the two of you have been absent in real life at the same time that it seems Jotun were absent.

Is my case weak? Yup. But show me a better one. On day 2 we're going to have to lynch someone. It might as well be someone who was absent from the board when it seems that Jotun were absent.

[Sigurd]

Round 2


The crowd were still a little agitated for not knowing which Kingdom CountArach belonged to. They even went as far as accusing each other for lying. “Surely that bastard was a Norwegian”, someone said. “In your dreams flat head, even a nursing child could have seen he was a Dane. The stink was on him”.
Some of the Swea people started chuckling. That was too much for Kukrikhan. “You talk like your mother, that sweet mountain goat I ran into the last time I visited your mountain”. makaikhaan was already worked up. “You speak of goats, valley rat, but do you even have a manhood that reaches that far up? Because your legs must have died trying to get past the first 100 yards on that mountain. We all know you can’t climb worth spit”. *spits*
Kukrikhan answered: “You must have fallen down from that mountain and cracked your head, trying to manoeuvre that wit of yours. It is leaking out your behind leaving a trail were daisies grow”. That was the final straw for makaikhaan. “Show me strength of arm were your mouth is weak”. He was about to draw sword when some of his companions grabbed him and held him down. The law speaker was moving towards the commotion and when he saw makaikhaan with the sword drawn and pinned to the ground, he knew this called for action. “Alright, the law speaks against continuing any blood feuds or the like at Althing. However, broken honour can be settled by Holmgang. If two men enter the Holme with the intent of settling a score, it is settled by the result. Families and kin can’t carry on the feud. Is this understood?” The onlookers agreed. The young law speaker could see that murder was in the eyes of both makaikhaan and Kukrikhan. “I take it these two men would want to fight such a Holmgang?” the two men grunted agreeable sounds. “Ok, since there are no Holme in this area, we will make a circle in the crowd for the men to fight in”. The throng of men formed a circle around makaikhan and Kukrikhan. Two wooden shields were thrown on the ground and makaikhaan and Kukrikhaan each took one. They were both of equal size. Both had their blade in hand and hatred lighted their eyes.
makaikhaan makes the first move and swings a heavy blow towards Kukri’s head. Kukri deflects and catches the full force of the blade on the shield. A loud crack is heard as the shield is visibly weakened. Kukri retaliates with an underhand swing trying to catch makai in the unprotected sword hand armpit. makai are just able to swing the shield round and deflects Kukri’s sword, but the word bounce off and nicks makai’s elbow.
makai is in trouble as he loses some of his arm strength. Kukri sees his opportunity and rams makai with the half broken shield.
makai falls and Kukri in his blood lust follow the falling motion with the tip of his sword and puts his whole weight into it. As makai hits the ground, Kukri’s sword pierces makai’s torso. The fight is as fast over as it started, with makai lying on the ground. But this time it is a sword which is pinning him to the ground. He grasps for breath, but can’t find any and darkness soon envelope him.


The crowd dispersed and left makaikhaan’s body to his Norwegian friends. They all stared after Kukrikhaan and the rest of the Danes leaving the scene with merriments over the spawn of the mountain goat’s misfortune.


Later one of them, Caius, takes a swallow of water from one of the casks that stand in the middle of the Danish camp. He thinks it has a funny aftertaste but thinks naught of it. He never sees the dwarf sitting nearby with a sly smile on his face.
As Caius nears his bedroll, he feels very tired. When he finally closes his eyes, it is if he never will be able to open them again.

***

The following morning the Danish camp is in uproar. One of their men is found sleeping the endless sleep and they immediately suspect the dirty Norwegians for this foul trick of cowardice.
They march to the law speaker and demands justice.
The young law speaker just sighs and as if he hadn’t suspected this from the onset continues: “You will return here later with a name. The person whom the name belongs to, will atone for this deed done to all of you. You must be democratic about it and all the kingdoms must join. Now go.”

The law speaker shook his head in disgust. This is what you get when a gathering of pagans meet together; all superstition and blood feuds. I strongly suspected this was only the beginning of a tragedy.






Killed: (2)

Twilightblade (N1)
Caius (N2)

Killed in Holmgang: (1)

makaikhaan (N2)

Lynched: (1)

CountArach (D1)

Living: (32)
Andres
Craterus
Crazed Rabbit
discovery1
El Diablo
Eliit Tuhkur
FactionHeir
Fenring
Gaius Scribonius Curio
GeneralHankerchief
glyphz
Husar
Ichigo
Kagemusha
Kukrikhan
LittleGrizzly
Motep
Omanes Alexandrapolites
pevergreen
Privateerkev
Proletariat
Quintus.J.Cicero
Rythmic
Sarathos
scottishranger
Seamus Fermanagh
shlin28
TevashSzat
TinCow
Tratorix
Warmaster Horus
woad&fangs

Start voting people. Deadline tomorrow 12th of August at 2000 GMT

[Privateerkev]

still only one kill... :inquisitive:

Well !@#$ that takes the wind out of my sails with Motep and Traitorix. They've been online and could have sent a kill pm before Sigurd closed the window for night pm's. :embarassed:

[Andres]

Sigurd, you still have makaikhaan in the alive list, but he got killed by Kukri in the Holmgang :bow:

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, you still have makaikhaan in the alive list, but he got killed by Kukri in the Holmgang :bow:
You need to be quicker friend... It's all taken care of... 4 minutes before your post. And yes... I did forget. :rolleyes:

[Andres]

You need to be quicker friend... It's all taken care of... 4 minutes before your post. And yes... I did forget. :rolleyes:

Wow, I'm getting slow...

[Privateerkev]

vote: Tratorix

Was missing from board when only 1 kill happened on N1. He was online before the deadline to send in the N2 pm's passed which weakens my case. But he could have just refrained from sending in a PM.

I admit this case is weak. But we need to vote and I quite simply do not have a stronger case on someone else yet. This vote at least has a incremental bit more forethought than the usual D2 votes. Which tend to be tons of random.org, meatballing, revenge votes for past games, votes to get people talking, ect...

If I see a stronger case, I'll move my vote.

Tally:

Tratorix: 1 (Privateerkev)

[FactionHeir]

Kukri seems to have a very high duel score judging from the quick fight...

[Motep]

Kukri seems to have a very high duel score judging from the quick fight...


not necceasrily. My duel in the last game was right quick, but I believe that I had a holmang of 4 or 5. I doubt that the win is from so much as skill as it is from the host's writing preference.

[Privateerkev]

Kukri seems to have a very high duel score judging from the quick fight...

Or he was lucky. If Sigurd is using the same system, this could mean that Kukri won all of his "rolls." (Sigurd explained this in the last game as putting paper in a bowl. Person X having a Y Holmgang score would mean Y number of paper in the bowl in one color. Person Z having a A Holmgang score would mean A number of paper in a bowl in that color. Then one paper in B color would be "draw". Sigured would then pull the paper out one at a time and write up the report based on that sequence.)

I notice neither khaan, nor Caius were greeted by a woman in the afterlife. I'll have to go back over Midgard 1 writeups to see what that could mean.

[Motep]

Or he was lucky. If Sigurd is using the same system, this could mean that Kukri won all of his "rolls." (Sigurd explained this in the last game as putting paper in a bowl. Person X having a Y Holmgang score would mean Y number of paper in the bowl in one color. Person Z having a A Holmgang score would mean A number of paper in a bowl in that color. Then one paper in B color would be "draw". Sigured would then pull the paper out one at a time and write up the report based on that sequence.)

I notice neither khaan, nor Caius were greeted by a woman in the afterlife. I'll have to go back over Midgard 1 writeups to see what that could mean.


Oh. Never mind, then.

[Andres]

Well !@#$ that takes the wind out of my sails with Motep and Traitorix. They've been online and could have sent a kill pm before Sigurd closed the window for night pm's.

Or they didn't send in the pm for a second kill to avoid even more suspicion...

Or the Jotun have other night actions available to them.




While I am insulted at PrivateerKev's accusations, I can only say that I dont blame him for suspecting me. (I dont exactly have the best track record in so far as being active...just look at my other games...). At least he is getting something done.

I like Andres' method of holmang, pick two suspects and have them duke it out. If you really suspect them, you can always lynch the survivor on the next day. Our current method is notoriously random and dangerous to the town, despite the fact that it is just soo much fun!

To speak on my behalf, I would have particiapated sooner, but for the fact that I went camping with my Father this weekend, proving myself to be an incompetent fisherman.


Right. Had we a kill action, we woould have gotten a pretty little write up, even were it stopped. Unless of course, our host is lazy, which I have yet to see signs of.

Then again, they could have all attacked one guy, but that lacks sense and would have likely been evident in the write up.

Hmmm... :inquisitive:

I don't like those posts.

Vote : Motep

[Motep]

Or they didn't send in the pm for a second kill to avoid even more suspicion...

Or the Jotun have other night actions available to them.







Hmmm... :inquisitive:

I don't like those posts.

Vote : Motep


I was just trying to be helpful...

Vote: Andres

[Andres]

I was just trying to be helpful...

Vote: Andres

- You were insulted at PK's accusations, yet you didn't blame him;
- You say it's better to try to do something useful with the holmgang, yet the random method is more fun;
- a kill action would have given us a nice write-up, unless the host is lazy, but you didn't see signs of laziness
- they could have all attacked one guy, but that doesn't make sense.

You are trying to look a bit too helpful for my taste.

And why did you vote me? Just because I voted you or are there other elements?

[Privateerkev]

Ah, just found something from the last game that could help (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1426299&postcount=911) with explaining the write-ups:


The Valhalla quotient just snapped into place for me. Notation at death that they arise to Valhalla indicates their status as being some form of warrior and not Jotun (or possibly a thrall who actually beats the odds and wins a holmgang proving he has the heart of a warrior).

Those who do not arise to Valhalla are either God [no need], Jotun [bad] or thrall [no warrior prowess].

So, lets look at where the victims have gone:

Twilightblade:


He was no longer sleeping on the ground. The ground rushed below him and his face was full of sweet smelling golden hair. He looked up and into the back of a young and apparently beautiful woman. “Ah there you are handsome.” She turned and he looked right into a pair of the most beautiful blue eyes he had ever seen. “I am taking you home, handsome. Please hold me, I am rather cold”. Twilightblade grabbed the lithe body in front of him and wished this ride would never end.


The men of Jorvik were in full panoply when they found one of their warriors with an eternal smile frozen on his face, lying on the ground.

So, a warrior from Jorvik.

CountArach:


The volunteer walked slowly up to CountArach and stood before him. He leaned over and the crowd knew he was about the whisper the ritual words, but instead he said: “I know who you are old man, this time it is me who wins”. CountArach’s eyes widened and before he could react, the volunteer had pierced the mortal guise of CountArach with a sword and the life force quickly drained from him.


The crowd cheered and the law speaker asked which Kingdom CountArach did belong to. The men of the kingdoms all looked at each other and shrugged. “You mean to say that no one here knew this guy?” Again the crowd shrugged.


CountArach found himself walking on a fine path towards a large building. The people he met bowed in reverence and looked to the ground. He barely noticed as he pondered the latest event. That executioner at the Thing, was he the one he suspected? If so, Midgard was in dire trouble.

From a tree next to the building he heard the ‘Kra’ from some birds. CountArach smiled. It was after all good to be home.

As has been discussed before, I think we can safely assume CA was Odin. If he sticks around and posts, I suggest we give weight to what he says.

makaikhaan:


As makai hits the ground, Kukri’s sword pierces makai’s torso. The fight is as fast over as it started, with makai lying on the ground. But this time it is a sword which is pinning him to the ground. He grasps for breath, but can’t find any and darkness soon envelope him.


The crowd dispersed and left makaikhaan’s body to his Norwegian friends. They all stared after Kukrikhaan and the rest of the Danes leaving the scene with merriments over the spawn of the mountain goat’s misfortune.

No Valhalla. But Norse. My guess is townie.

Caius:


Later one of them, Caius, takes a swallow of water from one of the casks that stand in the middle of the Danish camp. He thinks it has a funny aftertaste but thinks naught of it. He never sees the dwarf sitting nearby with a sly smile on his face.
As Caius nears his bedroll, he feels very tired. When he finally closes his eyes, it is if he never will be able to open them again.


The following morning the Danish camp is in uproar. One of their men is found sleeping the endless sleep and they immediately suspect the dirty Norwegians for this foul trick of cowardice.


No Valhalla. But Danish. My guess is townie.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andres has a point. Motep and/or Tratorix could have just withheld their pm(s).

As for multiple Jotun attacking one person, in Midgard 1 it was allowed but it didn't happen. It took two kills to take out a God so Sigurd said in that game he would allow Jotun to double-up. But I saw nothing in Caius's death write-up that showed God-hood like what we saw with CA's.

Here is Sigurd on the subject in the last game:


The Jotun knew they had to attack the Gods twice to remove them from the game. I put in their pm the solution to get rid of a God in one shot by sending two Jotun to do the deed but they never used this feature.

[TinCow]

I don't think a whole lot can be deduced from the most recent kill. It could easily be true that Tratorix or Motep are Jotun and that was why there was only one kill on N1. When they then realized that suspicion would be thrown on them by killing more than one person, they then refrained from other kills to lessen the damage to them. It could also easily be the case that the Jotun have simply chosen to only kill one person per night for their own reasons, as noted by Andres above. I really don't feel like one of these options is stronger than the other, so I'm inclined to give more weight to other factors for the moment.

Vote: Motep exclusively for his retaliatory vote, not for anything to do with the kills. I'll probably change this vote later, but consider this my method of scolding people for being unhelpful.

[Motep]

- You were insulted at PK's accusations, yet you didn't blame him;

No I do not. I know that I appear to be a scummy lurker...it helps to aviod confrontations like this, which tends, for me, to rob these games of their fun.



- You say it's better to try to do something useful with the holmgang, yet the random method is more fun;

Exactly. Randomness is most fun, but not very useful.




- a kill action would have given us a nice write-up, unless the host is lazy, but you didn't see signs of laziness


Thus, there was no other kill action. I know, I have left that stuff out on account as I was busy with something else and just neglected to put it in.


- they could have all attacked one guy, but that doesn't make sense.

Well, it doesnt, unless a protecting person can only block one kill on his ward, whereas the multi attack would be useful.


You are trying to look a bit too helpful for my taste.

And why did you vote me? Just because I voted you or are there other elements?

Retaliation, and I have no one better to vote for right now.

[Privateerkev]

The Jotun could definitely have other night actions.

In Midgard 1, there were 3 Jotun but always 2 kills a night. That always puzzled me. But then I remember that one of the Jotun had the night action of messing with messages that one of the Gods send to other players at night.

(And yes I realize that in that game Loki switched over to Jotun but he didn't last long after that once Heimdall set his sights on him. So they were briefly at 4 but went back to 3.)

But that doesn't work out right. In Round 7 and 8 the Jotun were still doing 2 kills a night, and sending fake messages, when they were down to only 2 people.

So, gah...

So, in the last game, it seemed that 2 or 3 Jotun were allowed 2 kills a night. 1 Jotun left allowed 1 kill a night according to Sigurd but they never got to that point. They were allowed other night actions but that seemed to not impact on their ability to do kills.

[pevergreen]

Vote: KukriKhan

I am going to Challange KK if he lives, from the fight and how he is posting, he is definately triggering my mafia sense, which doesnt get triggered very often.

I am prepared to reveal, as last night I was blessed by the gods...

[seireikhaan]

Well, I guess that makes me the ugly, extinct bird. :embarassed:

Right now, I'm at a loss for ideas. I don't think Motep is particularly scummy, and its quite possible that the Jotun are combining for kills just to be sure. I'll keep a watch and see if there's anything that twigs me.

[Tratorix]

Ok, I just had a thought. The Jotun are only killing one person per night for some reason. They could just be lazy and missing kill orders, but i'm thinking it's something more sinister. The Jotun's goal in this game is different from the average mafia game.



The Jotuns main object is to kill the Lords + the pro-town roles. If they are able to do so they will win.

The Jotun don't have to kill the basic townies. They just need to take out the power town roles and the Lords( a feat we made a lot easier for them by killing Odin). So, maybe the Jotun can investigate at night instead of kill. This would allow them to pinpoint which players they need to knock out, instead of wading through and killing everyone. This might explain why there have only been two night kills so far.

[pevergreen]

As mentioned before, I believe the Jotun are killing one a night to make sure if they get a "God" role, it is killed in one night.

[Tratorix]

As mentioned before, I believe the Jotun are killing one a night to make sure if they get a "God" role, it is killed in one night.

But why? If they hit a God, they could just finish them off the next night. Killing at this speed would make the game go painfully slowly for them. It doesn't seem to be very efficient, especially seeing as they might waste some nights on townies who really aren't much of a threat.

[FactionHeir]

That suggests one of the Jotun has played in the last game.

[Motep]

That suggests one of the Jotun has played in the last game.


Whuch does not significantly narrow the field.

[Tratorix]

Vote: Factionheir

So far your posts have been mainly small and inconsequential. Seems like someone trying to act like they're contributing while keeping their head down to me.

[Tratorix]

Vote: Factionheir

Didn't bold it the first time. :oops:

[glyphz]

Piecing together what's being discussed by everyone, I came up with a grim theory...
If there's supposed to be 2 deaths each night, and a single attack won't kill a pro-town god, it is possible that 1 of the supposed Jotun-target at N1 was actually a god, thus it failed.
If so, a possible explanation to a single death in N2 is that the Jotun attacked the same person again, this time using a double-attacked the same guy to make sure they get rid of him.
Which could mean Caius was a pro-town god, w/c could explain him not going to Valhalla if Privateerkev is telling is indeed true...
Someone prove me wrong please...

[Privateerkev]

I haven't noticed FH acting any differently than he acted in Drunken Lawyer or Mafia VIII.

[pevergreen]

The Gods death's are different from normal warriors, read CA's death.

He walked through, with people bowing in reverance. He was home.

[Tratorix]

I haven't noticed FH acting any differently than he acted in Drunken Lawyer or Mafia VIII.

Kind of a gut feeling, don't read too much into it. :shrug:

But, I can't see any better suspects, so it stays for now.

[Privateerkev]

Piecing together what's being discussed by everyone, I came up with a grim theory...
If there's supposed to be 2 deaths each night, and a single attack won't kill a pro-town god, it is possible that 1 of the supposed Jotun-target at N1 was actually a god, thus it failed.
If so, a possible explanation to a single death in N2 is that the Jotun attacked the same person again, this time using a double-attacked the same guy to make sure they get rid of him.
Which could mean Caius was a pro-town god, w/c could explain him not going to Valhalla if Privateerkev is telling is indeed true...
Oh, how much I wish I am wrong...

1.) In Midgard 1, failed attacks still had write-ups. So, if this game is the same, no write-up means no kill attempt at all.

2.) My bit from Valhalla comes from Midgard 1. It does not require you to believe me, only to read the old game.

I will try to make clear when I dig up information from the first game. And I should add the caveat that Sigurd could have significantly changed this game. So, reading Midgard 1 might not be helpful. (but it is entertaining...)

That being said, it's better than nothing. It seems some of the things in the first game are re-appearing in the second game so I wouldn't ignore the old game completely. Just understand that Sigurd might have changed things for this game.

[Craterus]

OK, it's getting too close to deadline time, and CA probably hasn't yet had his first cup of coffee yet, so vote it must be:

vote: CountArach

This post never made sense to me.

You seem to acknowledge that, due to timezone or whatever, he hadn't been able to log on and defend himself. I mean: you seem to suggest you want to hear more from him and then you put a vote on him. :huh:

Added with your ease in dispatching makaikhaan, I'm tempted to give you a vote. However, let's hear what you've got to say.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: Andres

Motep's always acted like this. I think you're going for the easy lynch.

[GeneralHankerchief]

By the way, I'm going to Holmgang challenge every chance I get, I don't care how suspicious this makes me look. Capo excluded, I haven't been assigned a mafioso role in well over a year and I'm pretty bored stiff of playing the townie role game after game. Holmgang was introduced in this series as a feature and I'm going to take well advantage of it. So you can instruct me who to challenge, rig it so I'm challenging a certain person, whatever. I'll do my usual townie work too. But I'm going to challenge every round, no matter what, because otherwise the game won't be fun for me.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

FoS: Kukrikhan

As Craterus said above, you wanted to hear from CA, but then with very little time remaining you threw a vote on him, without a chance to defend himself. Also from memory he was going to be lynched anyway, all you did was make sure that he wouldn't survive even if he got back and voted Warmaster.

If I'm mistaken I retract all the above, its early morning and I haven't had my usual coffee yet. Will be back later with more.

I'm not so concerned about him dispatching Khann, however. As Tincow mentioned above, it was likely that he was a mere townie. Also as I believe has been mentioned there is a certain amount of luck involved in Sigurd's method of deciding Holmgang

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The way I read things so far, Kev's analysis of the write ups parallels my own.


As to Holmgang results, all the write up of a battle involving a mortal will ever reveal (at least in a limited way) is the relative ability of the two participants. I read M'khaan's demise as "brave thrall bested by trained fighter." A champion/king/god/jotun would have waxed him more quickly. Not a lot to read into it with any surety after that.

IF v2 paralells v1, then Sigurd's Jotun's will have a holmgang of 7 or 8, with only the gods holding equal or better values at the outset. However, success in v1 did improve your ability a pip. This means that the most effective use of holmganging is for the king/jarl/champ to holmgang their scores up so that they can challenge jotuns with a fair chance (as opposed to very little) chance of success. This is most effectively accomplished by taking out weaker fighters and thralls -- without revealing yourself as a k/j/c and getting murdered at night.


Motep:

Your behavior is a bit suspicious, as Andres noted quickly. You have countered his points, but not with anything definitive.


Andres:

GH does have a point. I don't see enough of a clear picture to condemn Motep, even though you raised a good line of inquiry.

I will vote sometime during the morning. Meanwhile, let's hear more from Motep and Andres.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: KukriKhan

I am going to Challange KK if he lives, from the fight and how he is posting, he is definately triggering my mafia sense, which doesnt get triggered very often.

I am prepared to reveal, as last night I was blessed by the gods...

Interesting post.

You can't challenge Kukri because he's recovering from the Holmgang. It'll have to wait a night.

And what does the second part mean?

[woad&fangs]

After skimming over the thread I'm going to vote: tratorix, who seems more talkative than usual.

Whoever mentioned that the Jotun might have an investigation ability, I think that makes sense.

I challenged Husar because I was bored and because it was the first round so I figured a random Holmgang wasn't going to sink the town's chances or anything.

[Csargo]

I am prepared to reveal, as last night I was blessed by the gods...

Someone has some juicy information that he's holding out on....:thumbsdown:

[Privateerkev]

And what does the second part mean?

Pever was protected by Thor. How do I know this? Because I was protected by Thor on N1 and it was described as being a blessing from the Gods. (thank you Thor...)



Night 1

You find an amulet depicting a hammer on your bedroll.
You put it on and feel somehow stronger. It is as if you have gained immortality.

Your Holmgang ability has been temporarily increased to X for this coming round.

How do I know it was Thor? From the end write-up of Midgard 1.


I had to rewrite Prole’s role since I thought it a little inappropriate to place her in the shoes of Thor the manly man. I am sorry Prole if I thought wrong.
Thor was to protect two players every night by giving them a magical hammer amulet that would scare off the Jotun and give extra power in battle.

Basically, Thor was supposed to be in the last game. But Sigurd changed it because of Prole. So, it looks like he put Thor in this game.

I'm saying all of this because I don't want to see pever lynched solely on the basis of being protected by Thor. I saw it was raising questions so we might as well get it out in the open.

And Thor, thank you for the protection but I am merely a pawn in this great play. I humbly ask that you find someone more worthy than me to protect. :bow:

[Proletariat]

Yeah, I had dainty apples to pass out instead of hammers. Still catching up, will vote later

[Caius]

Yeah, I had dainty apples to pass out instead of hammers. Still catching up, will vote later
Thats a lie dirty soviet.

~;)

[Husar]

Hmmm...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Protection from Thor doesn't really mean much though. Thor could protect a Jotun and not know it.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

This is a good point to consider. Although would the protection actually bestow any benefits on said Jotun. I recall PK saying that he received a bonus in the Holmgang the following day...

[LittleGrizzly]

Hmm theres reason to suspect a few people so far....

PK has made a fairly convincing case on tratorix and motep, though in fairness this happened to me in one game i missed the first few days and was voted off as a lurker, that doesn't absolve them off guilt just makes me more understaning of thier position.. Moteps retalitory vote was just a stupid idea, probably just a townie annoyed at getting voted for but it is quite a scummy move...

KK seemed eager to challenge, and in his post where he voted for CA he seemed to admit he knew CA couldn't defend himself, and he won the holmgang.. which raises slight suspicion, overall probably not guilty but these 3 things make a fairly convincing case together...

I don't want to rush into it so i will consider for a few hours more before casting my vote..

[KukriKhan]

KK seemed eager to challenge

Uhmm.. I didn't challenge. I WAS challenged. Twice. And have been again. Sigurd deviates from ancient Holmgang rules and allows the challenger the first strike, instead of the one whose honor has been besmirched.

He (Sigurd) did ask in his OP for us to role-play as much as possible, so I've been playing along, trading insult for insult. And the Holmgang writeup alludes to such.

But I guess I'll stop now. Players think we're playing a straight mafia game, not a nuanced Norse legend, wrapped around a mafia game. Fine, then. To business.

Tratorix and Motep: explain, in detail, why you failed to vote, after committing to playing this game. Be warned: A weak answer will likely get you hanged forthwith. Your explanation should include how your dog died just as he was saving your family from destruction in the house burning down while it was rolled over by Soviet (er... Russian) tanks, while you went out for cigarettes to the 7-11.

[naut]

Tratorix and Motep: explain, in detail, why you failed to vote, after committing to playing this game. Be warned: A weak answer will likely get you hanged forthwith. Your explanation should include how your dog died just as he was saving your family from destruction in the house burning down while it was rolled over by Soviet (er... Russian) tanks, while you went out for cigarettes to the 7-11.
Perhaps their longboat sprung a leak?

I'm reserving judgement for a few hours.

[Csargo]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1987374&postcount=296

Why Tratorix PK?

[LittleGrizzly]

Fair enough points KK, ill admit i didn't look back to check before i posted that, that does leave the strange post in which you voted for CA but i have seen similar types of posts whilst voting in other games, so overall i would say theres a small amount of suspicion there...

[El Diablo]

Vote Tincow

Simply as he bandwagoned on Motep and then put the "I will probably change this later"

He hasn't (as yet) and thus has gotten in a sly bandwagoner...

(that is if Bandwagoner is an actual word which I doubt).

ED

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

UnFoS: Kukrikhan

Or I retract my Finger of Suspicion. This is what happens when I trust myself to remember and don't go back and reread the thread. My apologies for casting you in that light. :bow:
Still not getting the condemnation of CA, although having said that your condemnation of me in Mafia VIII followed a similar pattern.

Tratorix seems to be more worthy of suspicion than Motep imo. Motep is way too careless. Andres and Tincow don't appear to be particularly worthy targets thus far. But I reserve my vote for now.

[Kagemusha]

Am i right that in this list the first ones were the ones who challenged people to Holmgang?

1. GeneralHankerchief vs. Warmaster Horus
2. woad&fangs vs. Husar
3. makaikhaan vs. Kukrikhaan
4. Caius vs. Andres
5. Eliit Tuhkur vs. Privateerkev
6. pevergreen vs. Kukrikhaan

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

This thread is too long :dizzy2:

The only "evidence" so far I've managed to pick up has been the bandwagon on Warmaster in round one with no particular reason. Random voting is there, from my perspective anyhow, to provide discussion. Although a lynch is inevitable, there really shouldn't be a ganging up of players against one player like that with no evidence. Somehow, due to this, I'm sure one of them is Jotun. Instinct and the "third on the bandwagon" rule says discovery1. He also hasn't said much either, but then again, neither have I, so I probably can't use that against him.

I also didn't like Motep's aggressive action to Andres' point. Mafia always have a level of desperation when they are under a certain level of pressure. Although I didn't see a lot of that in his post, there was a small element of it, which makes me wary of him. I haven't played along side him for a while though, so I probably am not liable to say whether this is normal of him or not.

For now I:

Vote: discovery1

[Andres]

Vote: Andres

Motep's always acted like this. I think you're going for the easy lynch.

Always? I'm sorry, but it has been ages since I've seen Motep being active in a mafia game. And the posts I quoted have that awfull "neutral, trying to look helpfull" tone in them :shrug:

[pevergreen]

Always? I'm sorry, but it has been ages since I've seen Motep being active in a mafia game.

Very good point!

Suspect #2: Motep

[Kagemusha]

I dont agree that we dont have anything so far. The first challenge round of Holmgang gave us bunch of suspects. All the players challenging others + Kukri laying an open challenge to anyone, makes them either malicious = wishing to kill another players in order to kill of townies, without shred of evidence against the people they challenged, or unhelpful townies, trying to kill just for fun. These people are at this moment the most suspicious players in the game and thus should be lynched.
Holmgang should be used to reveal high stats of players and possibly flush out Jotuns. Random challenges or seemingly random challenges just hamper the efforts of the town. With this logic, i start from the list i posted before: Vote: GeneralHankerchief

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Vote: Tratorix

There isn't much to go on, and I refuse to 'waste' a vote. Based on my prior post and the fact that no argument since has convinced me totally otherwise, I'm going to vote as such.

Omanes makes an interesting point/s: Warmaster was the target of a silly bandwagon, I mean its all well and good to vote randomly but a joke bandwagon, that no-one actually jumped off??? It is questionable at least.

Also Motep does seem rather desperate, however I put this down to the fact that he's actually trying to be semi-active and doesn't want to be lynched early. That said he is certainly suspicious.

Finally before I go to training (must keep fit for Holmgang, will take on anyone who attempts to besmirch my honour... well it had to be said), Kage makes a good point regarding the Holmgang. Random challenges for no good reason should not be tolerated. Suspicion should be the only valid reason for engaging in it, however GH did say that he was in this for the role-play and wanted to be involved in the challenging... A front? maybe but I don't think him worthy of a lynch at this early stage. Also as has been discussed there is no way of policing the Holmgang from a townie orientated perspective, it is a feature that encourages randomness. More importantly it adds atmosphere and fun. Consistantly random challenges should be jumped on, but R1 imo, isn't enough of an excuse.

See you tomorrow.

[TinCow]

Vote Tincow

Simply as he bandwagoned on Motep and then put the "I will probably change this later"

He hasn't (as yet) and thus has gotten in a sly bandwagoner...

I was asleep, I live on the east coast of the US.

I am actually pretty disappointed to wake up to essentially nothing more than when I went to bed. Motep has had enough attention on him so far, but I'm just not convinced by the N1 absence theory, and I don't see much else against him. Given the lack of development in this phase...

Unvote: Motep
Vote: Crazed Rabbit
Veteran player who has so far been pretty silent. Speak up, my good fellow.

[naut]

Veteran player [CR] who has so far been pretty silent. Speak up, my good fellow.
Pretty normal from CR I'd say.

The round will probably end while I'm asleep, so I'll have to cast a vote before then, with little to go on.

Vote: scottishranger

Lurker.

[KukriKhan]

...+Kukri laying an open challenge to anyone...

I never did that. I think you may have me confused with that other tall, dark and handsome moderator, Andres, who wrote in #164 on page 6 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1986307&postcount=164):


Ok, which one of you cowards dares to challenge me?

Why did I vote for CountArach's lynch? The multiple vote-changes was the best evidence available at the time; I waited until 40 minutes before vote-closing time, to give him (CA) a chance to respond, then finally, cast my vote. Regrettably, it seems I was wrong, and helped (accidentally) kill a town-helper. Hindsight, that stuff that's always 20/20. Sorry, CA. Really. :bow:

I'd sure like to read a more detailed defense from our 2 N1 vote-laggards. Until something like that appears:

vote: Tratorix

[Proletariat]

Bah, not much to go on still, imo.

I get what you're saying Kage about the willy-nilly first round challenges, but I think it's just as likely these people were trying to have a laugh. I don't think it's likely that the Jotun would make such spectacles of themselves early on.

Vote: Kage mainly due to a random hunch, and I don't really buy his reasoning about people making Holmgang challenges are guilty. They're at least people who were getting a talkative first round going. I would actually vote: abstain this round if it was allowed.

[FactionHeir]

I would actually vote: abstain this round if it was allowed.

Where does it say that it is not?

[Ferret]

scottishranger has been posting elsewhere but I haven't seen him here,

vote:scottishranger

[Warmaster Horus]

I'll vote:Crazed Rabbit too, as a pressure vote for him. And because I've honestly no idea who to vote for.

Can someone do a tally?

[TinCow]

I think this is correct:

Tratorix: 4 (Privateerkev, w&f, Gaius, KukriKhan)
Andres: 2 (Motep, GH)
Crazed Rabbit: 2 (TinCow, Warmaster Horus)
scottishranger: 2 (Rythmic, Eliit Tuhkur)

Motep: 1 (Andres)
KukriKhan: 1 (pevergreen)
Factionheir: 1 (Tratorix)
TinCow: 1 (El Diablo)
discovery1: 1 (Omanes)
GH: 1 (Kagemusha)
Kagemusha: 1 (Proletariat)

Not voting: 15 (Craterus, Crazed Rabbit, discovery1, FactionHeir, Fenring, glyphz, Husar, Ichigo, LittleGrizzly, Quintus.J.Cicero, Sarathos, scottishranger, Seamus Fermanagh, shlin28, TevashSzat)

[Husar]

Vote: Gaius Scribonius Curio

Well, he is being very analytic and he looks danish. ~:pissed:

[Warmaster Horus]

Ah, thanks. I was starting one, and yours looks like what I was going to get.

I'm surprised no one accused Gaius of 3rd on the bandwagon yet. That's what most of Day 1 revolved around...

Edit: what's wrong with being analytic? or Danish for that matter? It seemed to me factions were there just for story purposes.

[TevashSzat]

Okay.....haven't read basically the last 50 posts and don't know if I really want to atm. Anyways, I updated the tally. Will probably read up this afternoon and post any insights I may mor may not get then

Tratorix: 4 (Privateerkev, w&f, Gaius, KukriKhan)
Andres: 2 (Motep, GH)
Crazed Rabbit: 2 (TinCow, Warmaster Horus)
scottishranger: 2 (Rythmic, Eliit Tuhkur)

Motep: 1 (Andres)
KukriKhan: 1 (pevergreen)
Factionheir: 1 (Tratorix)
TinCow: 1 (El Diablo)
discovery1: 1 (Omanes)
GH: 1 (Kagemusha)
Kagemusha: 1 (Proletariat)
Gaius: 1 (Husar)

[shlin28]

Vote: PK

Don't trust the person who made all the long analytical whatsits.

Tratorix: 4 (Privateerkev, w&f, Gaius, KukriKhan)
Andres: 2 (Motep, GH)
Crazed Rabbit: 2 (TinCow, Warmaster Horus)
scottishranger: 2 (Rythmic, Eliit Tuhkur)

Motep: 1 (Andres)
KukriKhan: 1 (pevergreen)
Factionheir: 1 (Tratorix)
TinCow: 1 (El Diablo)
discovery1: 1 (Omanes)
GH: 1 (Kagemusha)
Kagemusha: 1 (Proletariat)
Gaius: 1 (Husar)
Privateerkev: 1 (shlin28)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Always? I'm sorry, but it has been ages since I've seen Motep being active in a mafia game. And the posts I quoted have that awfull "neutral, trying to look helpfull" tone in them :shrug:

When he does post, he always acts in that manner though.

[Andres]

When he does post, he always acts in that manner though.

Well, sorry for having a bad memory. But I still think his post was scummy, being active is not his usual behaviour (hey, that's what you get if you end up WoG'ed in most games you sign up for: being threatened with a lynch when you start to participate all of the sudden :shrug:) and the blatant retaliation vote doesn't help his case either.

I'm not just going for the "easy lynch", I'm going for the guy who behaves different than usual and on top of that casted a blatant retaliation vote and made mafia-like posts.

[Privateerkev]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1987374&postcount=296

Why Tratorix PK?

There was only 1 night kill on N1. Sigurd asked for night PM's to be sent in late in N2. This makes me suspect that Jotun are not sending in their PM's on time. Tratorix and Motep were missing from the board at this time. They appeared right before the N2 deadlines were due. There was still only 1 kill on N2 but they could have just withheld their PM's and skipped a kill in order to look innocent.

Neither Tratorix's or Motep's reactions redeemed them in my eyes. I admit the case against them is thin but in my opinion, it is the best we have at this early stage of the game.

[FactionHeir]

Fair enough. I was hoping to withhold voting until we get some more information, but seeing as the deadline is almost here and PK's reasoning makes good sense:

vote:Tratorix

[Seamus Fermanagh]

tratorix and motep were both of concern based upon kev's analysis. Motep's been spoken for, at least enough to break that tie in my mind.

Vote: Tratorix

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Not sure if anybody else has noticed, but TinCow's immediately renunciation of the vote on Motep the moment he is targeted because of it looks fairly scummy from my perspective. His reasoning is perfectly valid, but I really don't like it.

[Privateerkev]

I don't see TC acting different than normal.

But Motep is not off the hook in my mind yet. To me, he is only marginally less suspicious than Tratorix. I say we watch him close and put pressure on him during the next voting phase. We'll see if anyone keeps defending Motep.

But, lets not focus so hard that we let others slip under the radar. That was a mistake we made in Mafia VIII and Kag basically saved us at the last minute. It was also how the town lost in Midgard 1. There was so much fighting between Sasaki, Ichigo, Redleg, and Reenk, that Stig and Alexander just slipped past everyone.

[Husar]

that Stig and Alexander just slipped past everyone.

No they didn't. I was suspicious of Stig for a while, almost challenged him to a Holmgang as well, the reason I let him off the hook was that he and Alexander said they were King and Champion and my investigations seemed to support that. That he was actually the king of the jotuns I didn't know, I thought of them more as three individuals rather than a king and two goons, the town group we had built seemed to agree with me on that analysis. :shrug:
Oh and Sigurd made my results on them a bit harder because he knew about our big behind the scenes town efforts and didn't want to make it too easy for us. I was mad at him then, but here I am again. :laugh4:
Back then I learned not to trust "evidence" too much, had I gone with my feelings we could've won that game.

[Privateerkev]

No they didn't. I was suspicious of Stig for a while, almost challenged him to a Holmgang as well, the reason I let him off the hook was that he and Alexander said they were King and Champion and my investigations seemed to support that. That he was actually the king of the jotuns I didn't know, I thought of them more as three individuals rather than a king and two goons, the town group we had built seemed to agree with me on that analysis. :shrug:

Sorry, I only have the thread to go by and I'm not done reading it yet. (Only up to page 43. :book:)

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but it seemed that Stig and Alexander were able to get as far as they did because Loki and a few townies spent dozens of pages just arguing with each other. I've always advocated the use of discussion but most of the Midgard 1 thread is evidence that the wrong kind of "discussion" can hurt the town.


Oh and Sigurd made my results on them a bit harder because he knew about our big behind the scenes town efforts and didn't want to make it too easy for us. I was mad at him then, but here I am again. :laugh4:
Back then I learned not to trust "evidence" too much, had I gone with my feelings we could've won that game.

Yeah I noticed. I guess since private reveals are allowed, he wanted to weight things back in the Jotun's favor so the town didn't have it too easy.

[glyphz]

My first readthrough of the last page and a half didn't reveal a whole lot either, and with CA's (aka 'Supposed-more-likely-to-be-Odin') confusing case still fresh... I Vote: Abstain for the time being, or until I find something worth pursuing before the deadline.

6 votes for: Tratorix
2 votes: Crazed Rabbit
scottishranger
1 vote: Motep
KukriKhan
Factionheir
TinCow
discovery1
GH
Kagemusha
Gaius
Privateerkev
Abstain: glyphz

[Quintus.JC]

At this stage in a large mafia game I doubt anyone has a clear idea who's the Joutuns... apart from the Joutuns themselves. So I abstain my vote for now.

[Privateerkev]

abstaining until later in the voting period is one thing. abstaining the entire voting period of a day phase is another.

I hope we will see those abstains turn to votes before the deadline is over. :yes:

[Privateerkev]

Finally got to page 53... :dizzy2:

Here is Stig's role PM (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1439045&postcount=1577) (he was the Jotun King in Midgard 1.)


As long as you are two or three you will be able to attempt murdering 2 players. Once or if your numbers drop to 1 you will only be able to kill one player.
In your Pm to me you will have to name the Jotun players that will do the killings that night. If you believe you are attempting to kill a God you could write the killing as if it were one kill and name two Jotun doing the killing. You have the option of not submitting a kill or attempting only one kill with one Jotun; all a choice of strategy.

So, if this game is the same, then it seems that one Jotun basically sends the orders for the rest.

The cases against Tratorix and Motep weaken but I don't see better lynch choices right now.

[Csargo]

I'm just going to go with my gut and Vote:PK

[Privateerkev]

This might help with the death write-ups. Got this from this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1439355&postcount=1587) in Midgard 1.


Valkyries

The valkyries that greet the warriors of men.
I hadn’t planned to put them in to the stories, but as soon as I did I realized that it would be another unbalanced feature. But as you look closely Warluster was greeted by Hel on his death. No horses or blonds mentioned. I also had to update Dutch_guy’s death. Townies without war experience had not been proved in battle and hence did not qualify for Valhalla. War Vets and Champions had proved themselves worthy before coming to Gulating. Even if they died in their sleep they were collected by the Valkyries.

[Tratorix]

Welp, looks like I'm heading for Valhalla earlier than planned. Sorry about this townies, I shouldn't have missed that first day phase. And now, because of that, the Jotun are one step closer to their goal. My apologies. :bow:

[FactionHeir]

Care to reveal then?

[Tratorix]

Care to reveal then?

Sure thing.




Eirik Bloodaxe, King of Jorvik (York).

You are the ruler of Jorvik, a carved out kingdom north in England. You are Norwegian by birth and a former Varangian guard. Trained and schooled in the skills of war makes you a formidable foe in Holmgang.

You have been summoned to this ting by the rulers of the Norse world to settle a dispute between Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. You are here to give evidence to the dishonorable union of interests between Denmark and Jomsborg. But you still have a strong feeling about who should rule Norway. It should have been you and not that brat Haakon.

Your survival is important. The Jotun is out to get you and your retinue. The Jotun will win if they kill you and the other Lords.

You have a champion in your retinue. This is Ragnar the Anglo-Saxon, one of your most trusted men.
If you are challenged to a Holmgang he can take your place. If the Holmgang you have been challenged to is the one which will be fought I will send you a pm with the question of you wanting a champion in your place. Remember, the Jotun will be looking for you and will discover that someone took your place.

Your champion is: Twilightblade

Holmgang ability: = 7

There. Of course, you might as well lynch me, since i'm dead now anyway.

[FactionHeir]

unvote:Tratorix, vote: Motep

[GeneralHankerchief]

That was the entire PM, was it?

[Tratorix]

That was the entire PM, was it?

I didn't include the Norse(or whatever it is) writing at the top. Wasn't sure if copying and pasting it would be within the rules.

[Warmaster Horus]

It looks genuine to me, what do you need more?

Of course, getting the other 5 who voted Tratorix to unvote in the next hours is going to be hard enough...

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm not talking about the Norse...

[Warmaster Horus]

What were you talking about, then? Something along the lines of:
"And GH is innocent, trust me"?

[Tratorix]

Well, that's all there is to it. I don't know what your looking for, but it isn't in my pm.

[GeneralHankerchief]

If I say it, then the Jotun get an advantage farther down on the road. Right now it's something that separates all non-Jotun from Jotun.

Unvote: Andres
Vote: Tratorix

I would like you to post your entire PM, minus the Norse if you think it's breaking the rules. Otherwise, the vote stays.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Actually, wait a minute. In what position relative to the rest of the text was the Norse? Please be descriptive.

[Tratorix]

Actually, wait a minute. In what position relative to the rest of the text was the Norse? Please be descriptive.

The Norse was just above the Eirik Bloodaxe, King of Jorvik bit. And this is my entire pm.

[FactionHeir]

I'm not sure what you are talking about GH. Even in my PM there is no norse outside of the name my character has.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Bold? Italicized? An uploaded picture?

[Motep]

Unvote: Andres ... You dont appear to be scummy to me, and I am done being annoyed at you.

Vote: Abstain...I am thoroughly confused....:dizzy2:

[Tratorix]

Bold? Italicized? An uploaded picture?

It's an uploaded picture. That's why I was unsure about posting it here. Probably just my characters name or something, but better safe than sorry.

[FactionHeir]

I very much think we should unvote him, even if he ends up as a night kill. At least it slows down the Jotun.

[Privateerkev]

unvote: Tratorix
vote: Motep

Sorry... :embarassed:

[Motep]

Im getting a bad feeling about GH now...

Unvote: Anstain

Vote: General Hankerchief

[Tratorix]

Unvote: Factionheir, Vote: Motep

At least this way I'll get murdered by the Jotun instead of the town.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Can any Jarls/Kings from Midgard I confirm if their role PM was done in the same style as Tratorix describes?

[Privateerkev]

Tratorix: 4 (Privateerkev, w&f, Gaius, KukriKhan, FH, Seamus, GH)
Motep: 4 (Andres, FH, PK, Tratorix)

We need to get votes off of Tratorix now!

Sorry Motep but your the sacrificial lamb this round...

We have to save the King. If we do, Thor can protect him.

[Motep]

We have to save the King.

:brood:


Erik the Victorious, King of Sweden.

You are the ruler of Sweden, and a former Varangian guard. Trained and schooled in the skills of war makes you a formidable foe in Holmgang.

You have been summoned to this ting by the rulers of the Norse world to settle a dispute between Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. You are here to give evidence to the dishonorable union of interests between Denmark and Jomsborg.

Your survival is important. The Jotun is out to get you and your retinue. The Jotun will win if they kill you and the other Lords.

You have a champion in your retinue. This is Þórvaldr Hjaltason of Iceland, one of your most trusted men.
If you are challenged to a Holmgang he can take your place. If the Holmgang you have been challenged to is the one which will be fought I will send you a pm with the question of you wanting a champion in your place. Remember, the Jotun will be looking for you and will discover that someone took your place.

Your champion is: [

[FONT=Verdana]Holmgang ability: = 7

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm if we were to pile our votes on CR we could save Tratorix for sure if GH and the rest aren't unvoting.

[Tratorix]

Tratorix: 4 (Privateerkev, w&f, Gaius, KukriKhan, FH, Seamus, GH)

We need to get votes off of Tratorix now!

Sorry Motep but your the sacrificial lamb this round...

We have to save the King. If we do, Thor can protect him.

I'm not the King, I'm a lord. I'm only King of Jorvik. I'm expendable, although my death does hurt the town somewhat.

[Motep]

Ok, I am dead now. Either vote for me or kill me in the night, Im screwed now anyways.

:shame:

[Privateerkev]

unvote: Motep
vote: CrazedRabbit

Motep could have just made it up off of Tratorix's reveal but we'll see.

[FactionHeir]

unvote: Motep
vote: CR

[Tratorix]

:brood:


Erik the Victorious, King of Sweden.

You are the ruler of Sweden, and a former Varangian guard. Trained and schooled in the skills of war makes you a formidable foe in Holmgang.

You have been summoned to this ting by the rulers of the Norse world to settle a dispute between Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. You are here to give evidence to the dishonorable union of interests between Denmark and Jomsborg.

Your survival is important. The Jotun is out to get you and your retinue. The Jotun will win if they kill you and the other Lords.

You have a champion in your retinue. This is Þórvaldr Hjaltason of Iceland, one of your most trusted men.
If you are challenged to a Holmgang he can take your place. If the Holmgang you have been challenged to is the one which will be fought I will send you a pm with the question of you wanting a champion in your place. Remember, the Jotun will be looking for you and will discover that someone took your place.

Your champion is: [

[FONT=Verdana]Holmgang ability: = 7


I don't believe that your role is almost word for word the same as mine, especially the Varangian guard bit and the dishonorable union of interests bit. Looks like you just poorly copied mine.

[FactionHeir]

unvote: Motep
vote: CrazedRabbit

Motep could have just made it up off of Tratorix's reveal but we'll see.

I was thinking that because of the same typo of "thing" as "ting" and generally the almost identical writing. Still...

[Motep]

I don't believe that your role is almost word for word the same as mine, especially the Varangian guard bit and the dishonorable union of interests bit. Looks like you just poorly copied mine.

You want a screen?

[TinCow]

You have got to be frickin' kidding me. This had sure as hell better be a joke or a Jotun ploy, otherwise not only have we now lynched Odin, but we've also exposed two of the three Lords and one of their Champions. This is a freaking catastrophe.

[Tratorix]

You want a screen?

No, then you'll just get Wogged.

Unvote: Motep, Vote: CR

[Motep]

You have got to be frickin' kidding me. This had sure as hell better be a joke or a Jotun ploy, otherwise not only have we now lynched Odin, but we've also exposed two of the three Lords and one of their Champions. This is a freaking catastrophe.

There is only three?

CRAP

:sweatdrop:...sorry...

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm can someone verify if both Erik the Victorious (Erik VI) and Erik Bloodaxe used to be Varangians historically? We can find out if someone is lying that way...

[Tratorix]

You have got to be frickin' kidding me. This had sure as hell better be a joke or a Jotun ploy, otherwise not only have we now lynched Odin, but we've also exposed two of the three Lords and one of their Champions. This is a freaking catastrophe.

My champion is the only one exposed and he's already dead. And yes, this does suck, but I think Motep is lying.

[Privateerkev]

You have got to be frickin' kidding me. This had sure as hell better be a joke or a Jotun ploy, otherwise not only have we now lynched Odin, but we've also exposed two of the three Lords and one of their Champions. This is a freaking catastrophe.

The Champion is already dead. He was killed on N1. (remember, in TB's death write-up, he went to Valhalla)

But, that does not minimize the fact that this could very well be disaster for the town. I'm not convinced by Motep yet but am willing to let him live a round until we straighten this out.

If Motep is telling the truth, he will have a Champion who can vouch for him.

[TinCow]

There is only three?

CRAP

:sweatdrop:...sorry...

I thought so...


The Kings and Jarls of the Norse world with their retinue are gathered at Alþing to settle a dispute between King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. Harald hired an army from Jomsborg to crush Haakon, but the mighty Joms were beaten. The captain of Jomsborg is also at this þing, wanting to regain any lost stature with the Norse Kings.

Maybe I'm wrong about there being three, but it reads to me like the three are Harald Bluetooth, Haakon Jarl, and the Captain of Jomsborg. Now that I've said this, though, these three roles are different from the two that Motep and Traitorix claimed. So, they're either lying, or we've got several other Kings and Jarls out there.

[FactionHeir]

Motep posted his Champion's name too for a little while.

And I hope Andres won't be using the moderator function to look at old edits :brood:

[Tratorix]

I thought so...



Maybe I'm wrong about there being three, but it reads to me like the three are Harald Bluetooth, Haakon Jarl, and the Captain of Jomsborg. Now that I've said this, though, these three roles are different from the two that Motep and Traitorix claimed. So, they're either lying, or we've got several other Kings and Jarls out there.

There are the two kings, the captain of Jomsborg and several(don't know how many) unaligned lords to help settle the dispute. So, we aren't screwed yet, but we aren't exactly off to a great start.

[Kagemusha]

GH. why i have this odd feeling that you are fishing for information to later cover your Jotun behind? The reveal of a king and a champion is hard strike against the town. People should vote some other player in order for atleast for the Jotun to use their kills on the King and not anyone else. Lynching a king is a worse kind of favour we can do to ourselves.

[Motep]

Motep posted his Champion's name too for a little while.



Hopefully no Jotun saw...If so, i am sorry, My champion.

[FactionHeir]

I think the only who possibly saw it were myself, PK, GH and Tratorix.

[Privateerkev]

No, GH has a point asking for what he is asking for.

There is something that is a part of someone's Role PM.

*edit*

And it would be helpful if TB could come in here and comment within the rules on Tratorix's reveal.

He can simply say "lynch" or "no lynch."

[GeneralHankerchief]

This is messed up. Thor's gonna have some work to do if they're both telling the truth

Actually, I'm more inclined to believe Motep's PM than Tratorix's. It looks more like Sigurd's style (not his writing style, his font style). He does the double indent thing and, IIRC, uses rich text mode to do all his posts/PMs. The weird font=verdana thing in Motep's isn't normally necessary since it's the default post font.

Either way, get those votes off Motep.

-edit- and BTW, I didn't see the name of Motep's champion.

[Motep]

No, GH has a point asking for what he is asking for.

There is something that is a part of someone's Role PM.

I didnt get anything else. Not even any fancy norse writing

[Tratorix]

This is messed up. Thor's gonna have some work to do if they're both telling the truth

Actually, I'm more inclined to believe Motep's PM than Tratorix's. It looks more like Sigurd's style (not his writing style, his font style). He does the double indent thing and, IIRC, uses rich text mode to do all his posts/PMs. The weird font=verdana thing in Motep's isn't normally necessary since it's the default post font.

Either way, get those votes off Motep.

-edit- and BTW, I didn't see the name of Motep's champion.

:laugh4:

I'd say you're a Jotun, but honestly, I don't see one of them sticking their neck out when they can just sit back and watch the show. So, you're just wrong, so I forgive your mistake. :bow:

[Privateerkev]

I didnt get anything else. Not even any fancy norse writing

Jotun! :brood:

unvote: Crazed Rabbit
vote: Motep

[Motep]

...:brood:

Unvote: GH

Vote: PK

I beleve it may be you who are Jotun.

[Kagemusha]

Why are you people bandwagoning CR? Tratorix pm looks authenthic, but Motep could have forged his own after the one Tratorix posted. Meanwhile GH blatantly asks for a Jarl this time to reveal himself. If his actions are not suspicious then i dont know what is.:wall:

[Tratorix]

By the way, GH, if you believe Motep and not me, how come the pms are almost identical when I posted mine first?

[Privateerkev]

I beleve it may be you who are Jotun.

You are sooooo Jotun...

And your going down. One way or the other... :brood:

[glyphz]

(the update, atleast prior to this post.... Crazy last hour...phew)
Tratorix 5 (SF, GH, w&f, GSC, KukriKhan)
CR 4 (TinCow, W. Horus, FH, Tratorix)
Pkev 3 (shlin28, Ichigo, Motep)
scotranger 2 (Rythmic, E. Tuhkur)
Motep 2 (Andres, Pkev)
KukriKhan pevergreen
TinCow El Diablo
discovery1 Omanes A.
Kagemusha Proletariat
GSC Husar
GH Kagemusha
abstain - 2 glyphz, Quintus JC

24 total votes (My fingers lazy to check who didn't vote)

[Motep]

:gah2::gah2::gah2::gah2::gah2:

I do not know waht to do...

I do notfeel right with PK or GH, but I cannot vote both....

Ill stick with what I have.

[TinCow]

I don't suppose we could get an extension on voting? We need more time to discuss this. We're more likely to screw up majorly with a snap judgment.

[Motep]

I don't suppose we could get an extension on voting? We need more time to discuss this. We're more likely to screw up majorly with a snap judgment.


That seems to be a good idea...

[Privateerkev]

Unless Sigurd screwed up with giving PM's Motep is not who he claims to be. There is something he should have in his PM as GH has mentioned.

[FactionHeir]

Hmm since I know the identitiy of Motep's Champion, if his champion were to PM me to confirm, that would help?

[discovery1]

Vote: Tratorix

He's faking.

[Tratorix]

I don't suppose we could get an extension on voting? We need more time to discuss this. We're more likely to screw up majorly with a snap judgment.

Tie the votes between me and Motep. That will get us an extension, and we're the two favourite lynch choices, CR is pretty much just a covenient bandwagon to try and save me.

[Craterus]

I just finished reading the thread and haven't really had a chance to process the information. I'm not convinced by Motep's reveal but I don't even know what the current tally is.

vote: abstain

Sorry. :shame:

An extension would be really nice if Sigurd would allow it. :idea:

[Motep]

yes...what is the tally?

[Warmaster Horus]

Someone put up a tally!
Sigurd, wait just a few minutes, please!

As for my thoughts, Motep's reveal seems wrong to me, for the reason that he's the second reveal, his role is too much like Tratorix and their characters are from different eras. Wiki says:
Erik bloodaxe from 895–954 and Erik VI 1286-1319. I don't know if this is possible, but it stinks to me.

[Tratorix]

Vote: Tratorix

He's faking.

:shame:

How am I faking? Motep posted after I did and his pm is the same. Either we are both lying, or Motep is lying.

[Privateerkev]

lynch Motep...

His "Champion" is not coming through for him...

[Craterus]

If Motep's PM is missing something it apparently should have, then I'm inclined to think he's lying. I don't think Sigurd would forget something like that with one of the main roles.

unvote: abstain, vote: Motep

I have a feeling this may only tie the vote.

[Kagemusha]

The summary of reacent events is that Tratorix revealed his role after FH asked for it. Then Motep revealed with almost identical pm. GH is fishing for information, while defending for Motep, which i cant see the sense behind. It seems in any case this game has started as nightmare for the town.

[Privateerkev]

But GH let us know something about the PM's. He didn't have to do that.

[TinCow]

lynch Motep...

His "Champion" is not coming through for him...

His champion has had only about 30 minutes to respond. If Motep is telling the truth, the guy probably isn't even online. I am really reluctant to lynch either of them at this point and I don't think there's a hell of a lot of harm that can come from leaving them alive for one turn. As such, I'm leaving my vote where it is, though the way this game is going CR is probably Thor. :wall:

[Tratorix]

But GH let us know something about the PM's. He didn't have to do that.

I think he was just fishing to see if he could make me slip up, working under the assumption that I forged the role pm. He didn't reveal anything that I saw.

[El Diablo]

GH is bluffing.

Vote GH

[Motep]

though the way this game is going CR is probably Thor. :wall:

That would be the worst thing...EVER

And once more, I am the fence between GH and PK...

[seireikhaan]

Lynch Tratorix, then Motep. Their reveals reek to me.

[glyphz]

Tratorix 6 (SF, GH, w&f, GSC, KukriKhan, disco1)
CR 4 (TinCow, W. Horus, FH, Tratorix)
Pkev 3 (shlin28, Ichigo, Motep)
scotranger 2 (Rythmic, E. Tuhkur)
Motep 2 (Andres, Pkev)
KukriKhan pevergreen
TinCow El Diablo
discovery1 Omanes A.
Kagemusha Proletariat
GSC Husar
GH Kagemusha
abstain - 3 glyphz, Quintus JC, Craterus

22 total votes (My fingers lazy to check who didn't vote)

by deadline (20:00 GMT, nothing after), someone post an accurate one, if you notice something wrong

[FactionHeir]

What's the tally again`?

:gah2: A few seconds late.

[Kagemusha]

But GH let us know something about the PM's. He didn't have to do that.

The point is not what we know about the pm´s. but what he knows. It doesnt hurt him if we know what he knows, but it hurts the town more what he knows if he is one of the bad guys. Defending Moteps immediate fake looking pm is something enough to cast a shadow of suspicion to GH, Asking for additional characters to reveal themselves, only stregthen that shadow.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm almost certain that Motep is who he says he is.

[Motep]

Recent evidence leads me to also suspect Faction Heir....:inquisitive:

Though I am the most inclined to suspect GH at this point.

[discovery1]

UnVote: Tratorix
Vote:Crazed Rabbit

[Craterus]

unvote: Motep, vote: CR

Sorry, gotta sacrifice CR. New evidence has got me to believe Motep's reveal is genuine. I suggest you all do the same and unvote.

Grill me about this later but as I understand it, time is running out.

[FactionHeir]

What is this "recent" evidence everyone is talking about out of a sudden?

And why is Motep more genuine than Tratorix who posted his reveal first with Motep copying his reveal?

Also, since Motep's alledged champion is online and didn't get back to me, something doesn't seem right.

[Privateerkev]

I think he was just fishing to see if he could make me slip up, working under the assumption that I forged the role pm. He didn't reveal anything that I saw.

Whether he was fishing or not, it still helped me figure something out.

We can always revisit GH later. One lynch at a time...

*edit*

aww crap...

unvote: Motep
vote: crazed rabbit

[Sigurd]

--------- Voting over ----------

Last valid vote was Craterus' abstain.

Give me a moment or two ... or three.
Wifey just called on the phone from England... This could take a while.

You can start challenging

[TinCow]

Can someone figure out the tally at Sigurd's cutoff? Who did we just lynch?

[Privateerkev]

Wow... that was nuts.... :dizzy2:

[Motep]

That was one hell of an hour...or two...

I lost track of time.

Fun as hell, though

[FactionHeir]

That means Tratorix was lynched due to discovery1's vote.

I think we should go after Motep and his "champion" next as I'm thinking that reason his champion isn't responding is because he isn't and thus hasn't got such a role PM. No reason not to reveal privately considering I already know his identity.

[Craterus]

Hmm, so none of that made a difference.

I guess the lynch write-up will indicate the allegiance of Tratorix (assuming glyphz has the correct tally).

Another mistake for the town, I think, but we'll see.

What's the basis for suspecting FH? I can understand why people think GH is scummy, but not him?

[discovery1]

My apologies for voting Tratorix at first. It was a mistake.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Challenge: FH

It's what you guys probably want anyway.

[Privateerkev]

So does anyone else think FactionHeir is being scummy?

need to think...

[Kagemusha]

I think we screwed up big time and lynched Tratorix.

[Motep]

I think we screwed up big time and lynched Tratorix.

That would be most unfortunate for the town...

Who voted for him even after his reveal? I shall look

[FactionHeir]

From my PM box by the same guy:



So does anyone else think FactionHeir is being scummy?

Edit: My apologies for voting Tratorix at first. It was a mistake.

Since you are now public with my PM and thus the possibility of your role (though still unconfirmed), doesn't it look rather obvious why we would want you to verify that you really are Motep's champion?

I still think you and Motep are likely Jotun unless you can prove otherwise.

Reasons:
1. Motep's role PM was almost an exact copy of Tratorix plus he didn't have anything above his name.
2. You, his champion, don't seem to be able to prove that you are a champion. Maybe because noone posted a champion PM yet you can copy?

[Motep]

I think the Jootun are GH, and PK. Maybe FH, but I doubt it. I believe he may just be trying to help the town, but their is serious potential for an ulterior motive in his words

[Kagemusha]

Hopefully this fiasco revealed possibly two Jotuns, namely Motep and GH. Im not sure about Disco, but would a Jotun try to cover behind an unknown character? possibly, but in any case the main suspects are Motep and GH, no matter how helpful Holmgang opponent GH is trying to be with his Jotun stats.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hopefully this fiasco revealed possibly two Jotuns, namely Motep and GH. Im not sure about Disco, but would a Jotun try to cover behind an unknown character? possibly, but in any case the main suspects are Motep and GH, no matter how helpful Holmgang opponent GH is trying to be with his Jotun stats.

Allow me to channel my inner Tribesman for a moment:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Motep]

With GH challenging FH, and my main suspicions being on GH, I would have to assume that GH is trying to silence the Townie because he is actaull active and unraveling his plans to kill first Tratorix then me.

So, I Challenge GH

with a holmang of 7, I might have a chance

[TinCow]

I think the Jootun are GH, and PK. Maybe FH, but I doubt it. I believe he may just be trying to help the town, but their is serious potential for an ulterior motive in his words

I do not think PK is Jotun. We have been exchanging PMs for the last 30 mins or so about all this ridiculousness, and in the process he revealed to me. His role PM looks legit to me, as much as any role PM can. He would not have had time to make up that role PM while responding to me, and it contains information that he could not have had unless he had access to a real one.

[Kagemusha]

Allow me to channel my inner Tribesman for a moment:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Well then answer why you defended Motep, while accusing Tratorix? If The first pm of Tratorix posted is almost 100% right, while the second you deemed authentic is actually completely authentic, how on earth Tratorix sourcered the first one out from thin air?

[Motep]

I still suspect PK, but that is all it is, a gut feeling. Dont read much into it, considering his scumminess comes after GH's, so he might have just been decieved by GH.

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm why would PK reveal to you TC?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well then answer why you defended Motep, while accusing Tratorix? If The first pm of Tratorix posted is almost 100% right, while the second you deemed authentic is actually completely authentic, how on earth Tratorix sourcered the first one out from thin air?

a) Tratorix has already proven his knowledge of all things Norse by pointing out supposed fallacies in Motep's PM by saying that kings come from different eras. He could have easily come up with a name and reworded his PM.

b) I don't like the whole Norse stuff at the top he was talking about.

c) I think, from the format and not the content of Motep's PM, we can reasonably assume that it was written by Sigurd. Not the case with Tratorix's.

[Privateerkev]

Here is a quick tally:

Tratorix: 6
Motep: 2
KK: 1
TC: 1
Abstain: 2
Disco: 1
GH: 1
CR: 4
SR: 2
Kag: 1
Curio: 1
PK: 3

[GeneralHankerchief]

I think Tratorix didn't want to reveal the Norse because people would translate it and realize that it meant "Jotun" or something familiar.

Also, don't label people scummy just because they disagree with you on who is scummy. That's just silly.

[TinCow]

Hmmm why would PK reveal to you TC?

He was trying to convince me that Motep was Jotun. His reasoning was based on information in his own role PM. He made a vague reference to this, acknowledging that it was risky to give out information. We went back and forth a few more times and I wasn't getting any bad vibes from him, nor have I throughout this game, so I revealed to him my role PM, sans a few important bits such as my Holmgang score, and he responded with his almost immediately. I would post the whole PM chain, but there is no way for me to remove the confidential info without making it unreadable.

[Tratorix]

a) Tratorix has already proven his knowledge of all things Norse by pointing out supposed fallacies in Motep's PM by saying that kings come from different eras. He could have easily come up with a name and reworded his PM.

b) I don't like the whole Norse stuff at the top he was talking about.

c) I think, from the format and not the content of Motep's PM, we can reasonably assume that it was written by Sigurd. Not the case with Tratorix's.

A) I never said the kings come from different eras. I know next to nothing about "all things Norse"

B) It was Runes, like in the first post. Like I told you.

C) I copy and pasted it from the pm into a quote box, which may have changed the formatting somewhat.

[FactionHeir]

a) Tratorix has already proven his knowledge of all things Norse by pointing out supposed fallacies in Motep's PM by saying that kings come from different eras. He could have easily come up with a name and reworded his PM.

b) I don't like the whole Norse stuff at the top he was talking about.

c) I think, from the format and not the content of Motep's PM, we can reasonably assume that it was written by Sigurd. Not the case with Tratorix's.

How do you explain that Tratorix' PM has the same typo as Motep's? Also note Tratorix did not edit his role PM post at all.


He was trying to convince me that Motep was Jotun. His reasoning was based on information in his own role PM. He made a vague reference to this, acknowledging that it was risky to give out information. We went back and forth a few more times and I wasn't getting any bad vibes from him, nor have I throughout this game, so I revealed to him my role PM, sans a few important bits such as my Holmgang score, and he responded with his almost immediately. I would post the whole PM chain, but there is no way for me to remove the confidential info without making it unreadable.

Meh, he didn't reveal to me :cry:

[Andres]

The verdana thingy in Motep's "role pm" is a bit odd. Why not just go to your pm box, hit reply, copy/paste the Sigurd pm and post it here? It is as if you added that in to make it look more genuine.

How exactly did you copy/paste your role pm into the thread, Motep? Explain step by step please.

Tratorix mentioned TwilightBlade, a confirmed innocent, as his champion. I can't believe you guys lynched Tratorix over Motep. All we had to do was wait for TB, a confirmed innocent, to confirm Tratorix' claim ergo Tratorix' claim is very likely to be genuine.

It's very interesting to see how GeneralHankerchief defended Motep and attacked Tratorix, while Tratorix claim was much easier to check on its' correctness by simply waiting for TB to show up...

And why was CR a suspect?

Oh well, it seems like I am about 45 minutes too late...

[Motep]

this game is making me paranoid...:dizzy2:

as to andres, I highlighted the pm, copied it, and pasted it into my post. Then I relised I left my Champion in and hastily deleted his name, and evidently the end of the verdana font code.

seriously, why the hell did you vote on CR? What did he do?

[Tratorix]

He was trying to convince me that Motep was Jotun. His reasoning was based on information in his own role PM. He made a vague reference to this, acknowledging that it was risky to give out information. We went back and forth a few more times and I wasn't getting any bad vibes from him, nor have I throughout this game, so I revealed to him my role PM, sans a few important bits such as my Holmgang score, and he responded with his almost immediately. I would post the whole PM chain, but there is no way for me to remove the confidential info without making it unreadable.

He didn't claim lord did he? Everyone seems to be doing that these days.

edit: CR wasn't really a suspect, he was just closest to me in votes, so some people were trying to save me by voting him.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The verdana thingy in Motep's "role pm" is a bit odd. Why not just go to your pm box, hit reply, copy/paste the Sigurd pm and post it here? It is as if you added that in it.

I'm going to break the beautiful "5,000 posts" thingy under my avatar to respond to this, but there's a simple explanation: Sigurd uses the rich text editor. It doesn't translate too well into the normal forum vBulletin mechanics.

[FactionHeir]

I highlighted the pm, copied it, and pasted it into my post. Then I relised I left my Champion in and hastily deleted his name, and evidently the end of the verdana font code.


Highlighting does not get you the font code in the first place...


I'm going to break the beautiful "5,000 posts" thingy under my avatar to respond to this, but there's a simple explanation: Sigurd uses the rich text editor. It doesn't translate too well into the normal forum vBulletin mechanics.

You did not reply to me. Scummy.

[Privateerkev]

Traitorix revealed something to me that makes me believe him.

The town lynched a king people... :embarassed:

[Kagemusha]

a) Tratorix has already proven his knowledge of all things Norse by pointing out supposed fallacies in Motep's PM by saying that kings come from different eras. He could have easily come up with a name and reworded his PM.

b) I don't like the whole Norse stuff at the top he was talking about.

c) I think, from the format and not the content of Motep's PM, we can reasonably assume that it was written by Sigurd. Not the case with Tratorix's.

This the role pm posted by Tratorix:


Eirik Bloodaxe, King of Jorvik (York).

You are the ruler of Jorvik, a carved out kingdom north in England. You are Norwegian by birth and a former Varangian guard. Trained and schooled in the skills of war makes you a formidable foe in Holmgang.

You have been summoned to this ting by the rulers of the Norse world to settle a dispute between Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. You are here to give evidence to the dishonorable union of interests between Denmark and Jomsborg. But you still have a strong feeling about who should rule Norway. It should have been you and not that brat Haakon.

Your survival is important. The Jotun is out to get you and your retinue. The Jotun will win if they kill you and the other Lords.

You have a champion in your retinue. This is Ragnar the Anglo-Saxon, one of your most trusted men.
If you are challenged to a Holmgang he can take your place. If the Holmgang you have been challenged to is the one which will be fought I will send you a pm with the question of you wanting a champion in your place. Remember, the Jotun will be looking for you and will discover that someone took your place.

Your champion is: Twilightblade

Holmgang ability: = 7


And this one is from Motep:


Erik the Victorious, King of Sweden.

You are the ruler of Sweden, and a former Varangian guard. Trained and schooled in the skills of war makes you a formidable foe in Holmgang.

You have been summoned to this ting by the rulers of the Norse world to settle a dispute between Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. You are here to give evidence to the dishonorable union of interests between Denmark and Jomsborg.

Your survival is important. The Jotun is out to get you and your retinue. The Jotun will win if they kill you and the other Lords.

You have a champion in your retinue. This is Þórvaldr Hjaltason of Iceland, one of your most trusted men.
If you are challenged to a Holmgang he can take your place. If the Holmgang you have been challenged to is the one which will be fought I will send you a pm with the question of you wanting a champion in your place. Remember, the Jotun will be looking for you and will discover that someone took your place.

[font=Verdana]Your champion is: [

Holmgang ability: = 7

GH. Are trying to explain to me with serious face that Tratorix, somehow magically was able to get most of the whole sentences of a pm he did not have right, word from word, with only his knowledge of Norse mythology? Please, if someone should be using tribesy smileys, it should be me, while reading your bollocks excuse for defense as Tribesy might say.:laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

It was determined in Midgard I that Sigurd made typos in PMs that were mass-produced. I don't think it's consequential.

[Tratorix]

It was determined in Midgard I that Sigurd made typos in PMs that were mass-produced. I don't think it's consequential.

So your saying my pm is real, but i'm still guilty... :laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

This the role pm posted by Tratorix:




And this one is from Motep:



GH. Are trying to explain to me with serious face that Tratorix, somehow magically was able to get most of the whole sentences of a pm he did not have right, word from word, with only his knowledge of Norse mythology? Please, if someone should be using tribesy smileys, it should be me, while reading your bollocks excuse for defense as Tribesy might say.:laugh4:

It's bollox :wink:

And he might have been able to snatch one from a true King, too. I just think Motep's is real.

And nobody's still responded to my post at the top of the page.

[Kagemusha]

It was determined in Midgard I that Sigurd made typos in PMs that were mass-produced. I don't think it's consequential.

Im sorry Jotun, but it seems your game is over.:smash:

[Motep]

Highlighting does not get you the font code in the first place...



It does not for you?

[FactionHeir]

I'm definitely convinced of GH's guilt now. And a very major Hand of Suspicion over Motep and disco....

[GeneralHankerchief]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Awesome.

[Privateerkev]

And nobody's still responded to my post at the top of the page.


Tratorix told me what his rune said. Based on what I know about the runes, I believe him. I don't want to post it here because Jotun can then fake it.

Because of various PM's with various people, I also believe TC, disco, and Motep are all innocent.

[TinCow]

And why was CR a suspect?

He wasn't I voted for him first just to get him talking, I had no desire to see him lynched. Then WH voted for him claiming the same reason. Then when this Traitorix and Motep stupidity went down, everyone somehow chose CR as the next closest alternative and piled on. It would be a serious error to think there was ever anything against CR, I was just trying to get him to speak up and then the rest were bandwagons for various reasons, some legit, some less so.