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I'm not saying higher ranked players cannot propose any laws.
On the contrary, Consuls & praetors also had the power to propose laws.
The point is that only people with a current OFFICE, should be able to make laws. Not just any senator with a high rank :) They can motion for a law to be made, but when it comes to actually voting the law at the congressional meeting, it should come from someone in office (thus removing the 'seconding' rule)
This can be reached by making a distinction between ranks and offices :)
Let's say we make the following offices electable:
consuls (alrdy voteable)
Praetors (new)
Tribuni plebis (alrdy voteable)
The amount of offices for the last 2 that can be available should be based on players currently active.
This results in only the above offices being able to propose laws.
The other current ranks do still matter of course, in the way that your rank determines how heavy your vote counts when it comes to elections.
The idea to reach here is that we have: senators in office making laws <=> senators leading armies/provinces only voting.
But I still think being able to have all that power whilst still effectively being in the lowest rank is a bit strange.
well it's historical accurate :)
plus the senate has the access to money.
And with more tribunes of plebs chosen, nobody can run rampage :)
I'm guessing a lot of things in this RP are very unhistorical.
nothing wrong with that. Just trying to improve it a bit, to get a more dynamic system going. if everybody can propose laws, what's the use in lobbying and factioning? ;p
Ok, for getting votes you still need to do it. Would be more fun if there can be a bit of a battle between factions before a law is even put to the vote ;)
Yeah, but with the amount of land that is currently owned there is really no space for different factions so, then, maybe only certain people can propose laws would be better.
u don't need land to have factions in the senate:)
Maybe u can give the tribune the chance to pass 3 laws without havign a vote on it.
Being able to do so because he had it voted by the People in the comitia, where patricians couldn't vote
Also take into account that the next batch of tribunes can easily erase all the laws a previous tribune has made, since the new ones can also make laws without voting then :)
3 veto's. Too much, maybe one. If you want to think about it in that sense then a dozen or more laws were passed in the Senate every week let alone 3 years like we do it. In that sense to scale it down with the amount of laws proposed last session then 1 veto is far more than enough.
BtSH Players:
There has been a recent trend by many people in this particular thread to make remarks which are either hostile or potentially offensive. I understand that these games create friendships amongst the players, and that is a good thing that I want to encourage. However, the Org Rules (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=727646&postcount=1) on posting etiquette need to be followed.
Posts containing any generally objectionable material: knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Posting of copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you or by The Guild, is discouraged. The Guild expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs, or insults -- addressed to either an individual or a group -- is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.
I know that the vast majority of the things that have been said in here were intended as jokes amongst friends, but they have started crossing the line with increasing frequency. This needs to stop. Please keep the public discussions tasteful and free from obscenities. If you'd like to get a bit more 'liberated' with your language, you can always do it via PMs or by creating a private Social Group (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/group.php).
Many thanks! :bow:
Bah! Who did that? :ahh:...Ok...:sweatdrop:. I see your point though, it could be easily taken too far or someone taking a joke the wrong way. Luckily I think everyone involved was indeed not being serious and only jibing, and no one to my knowledge took any real offfence at it. But I agree it shouldn't happen here.
Anyway, it's a shame we've had this Carthie event in a way. We should do one for Mini's reforms; the reforms of Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillus, seeing as Mini's coming up with so many ways to improve this PBM. Anyone think this is a good idea?
except that my chars is Quintus Aemilius Regillus, it's all good :D
i'm open for debate or clarification if anyone needs.
Yes...I know...thats why I put Regillus...:sweatdrop:...Phew, got out of that one:beam:.
I dont know what your talking about...Looks at burely guard. "You, I don't know why your hanging around here, but remove this false stuff spreader."
hehe :)
Well glad atleast someone likes my proposals.
I like what your trying to do, but you have to understand that its a huge upheaval for this game, as it basically throws everything out the window and we have to start from scratch. Promotion no longer means as much. For what your trying to create (more historical accuracy) able to implement into the rules, I'm afraid you would have to do a lot of work, to rewrite many of the rules, create many new posts and ranks/offices, stuff like that, so that Navarro doesnt have to do it. Then present what you have done, and your much more likely to get the pass.
Basically, write it in plain english what you think the new rules should be, what changes you want to make and the effects this would create. People are likely to argue if it means they have to start thinking about it or doing something about it themselves. I'm happy to help, but to be honest its your idea, ideals and so you need to do the work.
i'll summarize the shiznit then, when i'm tired of my english game atm ;)
Potocello
02-26-2009, 21:50
good lord, navarro got 7 votes in the council?! that's a lot of votes
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
02-26-2009, 22:04
The best way to solve this is to propose it as a Charter Ammendment (either when you attain the rank of Dux or when you bribe/convince someone to propose that legislation).
I personally think some reforms wouldn't be all that bad, certainly not "earth shattering" to our way of life here
I agree with your sentiments but if you proposed them in, 'plain English' as Bean said and write exactly what you wish instead of snippets of information I'm sure I'd understand more anyway, as I have learnt these rules off by heart. As always, I'm all for historical accuracy, if you can make it work.
I think if you can make it work it will be fantastic. A real trial and error thing for this PBM, means future PBM's will work better and we will all learn what works and what doesnt work so well. We've already seen that this works with the demise of the Dictators and the introduction of the Tribune of Plebs rank. We should keep trying this stuff out. Good effort Mini
i'm preparing a megapost, dont worry :D
So, here i'll propose a few new rules/mechanics.
Mind you that, to prevent multiposting, I might edit quite a lot ;)
All of this is of course open for discussion and coutns as a suggestion, as I am not the GM.
First of all, I would like to define 'pomerium', as it will return frequently:
pomerium in this game will be: all cities from arretium/ariminum down to Rhegium.
About Ranks: these are player ranks, mostly concerns governement.
Tribunus Militum
Requirements: None (Training Stage)
Influence: 1 if at all
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
Penalties:
(1) The Tribunus is second or third in command of a legion. He is young and therefore must learn how to properly lead and is required to serve in a Legion under a Legatus for at least 2 battles to be promoted or serve as an aid to a Provincial Dictator for 2 years.
(2) May not lead an army nor propose laws.
(3) Cannot Run for Consul
(4) Can only join a Legion that has a legate in it. Otherwise skulks in Rome to gain ancilliaries until he gets elected as Tribunus Plebis OR appointed Quastor by a consul of finance.
Tribune of the Plebs
Speaks for the Plebs in the Comita.
Requirements: Must be elected to position. Atleast 2 tribunes should be in office.
Influence: 1+1
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can propose one edict/charter amendment per congressional council;
(2) Can veto.
(3)The Tribune of the Plebs term is two Consul Terms long. (6 years)
(4) Can issue 3 laws outside the congressional council(representing their lawmaker role in the republic). These laws will take 2 turns before going into effect,giving the other Tribune(s) the chance to veto.
Penalties:
(1) May not lead an army
(2) Cannot Run for Consul
(3) Must remain in Rome.
Quaestor
Requirements: Must have been appointed by the consul of Finance.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict/Charter Amendment per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can control one city in the pomerium, appointed to him by the CoF.
(3) Must be appointed by Consul of Finance
(4) Can act as second in command to a Legate/General/Consul
(5) Can also govern a provincial city in the province of a governor.
Penalties
(1) Cannot command a Legion
Praetor
Requirements:Must have been Quaestor OR Tribunus plebis. Must have 20 'battle points'. Must be elected.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 3
Powers:
(1) Can lead 1 legion
(2) Can propose 3 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(3) Will get to choose province to govern when term as praetor is over, after both consuls have chosen theirs.
(4) Can act as judge when players charge eachother for crimes.
Consul of Finance
Only Consul of Finance will end the “turn”.
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any building in any settlements he wishes and set the tax rate in any settlement unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot recruit military units.
(2) Gains automatically control of the Consular Legio II. This legion will be stationed in a fort outside Capua. It may never enter Latium unless passing through or if there is an enemy near Rome. Legion will be used only to clean up rebels inside the pomerium ONLY.
(3) MUST BE STATIONED IN ROME! The finance consul must always be in Rome to govern. Unless fighting off rebels.
(4) All diplomats (not spies or assassins) are under the command of the Consul of Finance. He can move them and use them as he sees fit.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get first pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(9) Can exclude 1 avatar from participating in the congres. the so called: "lictors, remove this man" move ;) Basically only to be used when people are truely annoying in the Curio, or rebellious.
Consul of the Legion’s
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any military unit in any settlements he wishes unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot construct buildings.
(2) Assumes control of the Consular Legio I (composition, see below).
(3) May choose his theater of war.
(4) All Assassins are under command of the Consul of the Legion’s. He can move them and use them in any way he wishes.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get second pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
Princeps Senatus
The Princeps Senatus is the “primus inter pares”. That indicates that the person so described is technically equal, but looked upon as an authority of special importance by his peers.
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Leader.
Influence: 3 + 2 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 5
Powers:
(1) Can propose 5 Edicts/Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(4) Once during his reign, the Princeps Senatus can automatically assume the post of dictator. The Princeps Senatus must declare he is exercising that right. He will then be appointed Dictator of Rome with no election. This right can only be invoked once. (penalty to influence after)
(5) Has the right to veto 5 propositions from the consuls&praetors, representing his influence on senior senators. However CAN NOT veto any law by the Tribunus Plebis.
Provincial Governor
Requirements: Must be appointed to this rank by the Princeps/Senate OR be an outgoing consul/praetor. Must have been praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can govern the Province(s) they have been given. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(2) Can not propose any of Edicts or Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can Prioritize one building in any build queue in any settlement in his Province(s).
(4) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can destroy one building in any settlement. Buildings in the barracks lines cannot be destroyed with this power.
(5) Can move any units in the borders of his Province(s) in any way he wishes unless they are controlled by another Player, including spies.
(6) Every Provincial Governor will have a Legion to command.
(7) Can appoint a Quaestor to govern any city he choses in his province.
Legatus
Requirements: Must have served in at least 2 battles as a Tribunus Militum. Must be appointed by Senate/provincial governor. Must atleast have 15 battle points.
Influence: 1
Powers: (1) Can command 1 legion in a province which as multiple legions, as the provincial governor can only command 1 legion.
Privatuus
Basically: an avatar without use :p Included it for completeness
The basic idea is that ppl who are 'in office' have a bigger grip on the current events during their office, while after their term, they go govern a province and ergo will have less to say than the peepz currently in charge.
The mechanic of 'office peep' choosing their provinces, will ensure that there will be a change in provinces often enough. Everybody get's the chance (or obligation) to control a different province in the course of the game.
Let me also clarify that 'province' is not the same as (city)
For example: provincia Gallia Cisalpina will be: bononia, mediolanum patavium aquilea. basically everthing above arretium. This will all be in the control of 1 governor, but the governor can choose quaestors to govern the other cities there.
For the defenition of provinces, this will be dynamic. As the empire expands/declines we can make more or bigger provinces and vice versa.
As everyone execpt the consul can only command 1 legion, in later parts of the game there will be provinces that require more than 1 legion to operate. This is were the rank of Legate comes into play.
A provincial governor may request a certain grand strategy in his province from his legates, but basically each one does what he wants with his legion :)
COMPOSITION OF THE LEGIONS:
Camillan era
1 Leves or Accensi
1 Rorarii
1 Hastati
1 principes
1 triari (or two if we're playing with half-sized maniples)
(+family members)
1 skirmisher type (based on area where the legion operates)
2 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry or just any local stuff if the real distant cities
)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 unit local cavalry for a legate, 2 units for the provincial governor.
Polybian Era
The Roman core of a Polybian Legion is represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
1 units of Hastati
1 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if we're playing with half-sized maniples)
(+family members)
The two socii alae are composed as follows:
1 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
2 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 (legate) or 2 (governor) units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)
Marian
The Roman core of a Marian army is as follows:
1st Legion
1 General
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of antesignani
2nd Legion
1 tribune
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of cohors evocata
Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers
The allied part is as follows:
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry
Optional: 2 units of allied close-order foot
Consular Legion I for the CoL:
Camillian
The Roman core of a Camillian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Leves
1 unit of Accensi
1 unit of Rorarii
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
2 unit of Triarii
familymembers
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)
Polybian
The Roman core of a Polybian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if you're playing with half-sized maniples)
familymembers
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)
Freaky, you might say :D I understand if peepz dont want it all THAT historically.
But the numbers are there, if we want we can always switch all the allied troops into roman troops.
1 legion then container 3 hastati instead of 1 hastati and 2 allied infantry.
But it's just more fun to walk around with a real legion, and it adds diversity :)
The CoF legion will actually be the half of a normal legion (only the roman units: 1 hastati 1 principes 1 triarii 2 skirmish units)
There, ranks and legions redefined. Just read it, ask any question, give feedback
I tried to tidy it up as good as possible.
This was all I could think about right now, atleast concerning the big changes to the game. I'm sure I can think of more stuff after other people have given their opinion.
i'm also available for explaining how or why i chose a specific mechanic.
Actually, I do have to agree that these are some pretty good reforms if we want it to be more historical. I think this is good for the game (directed at Navarro)-maybe we should have an OOC vote on it, but it's your game, so your final decision, and I'll go along with either. But I think this will make our PBM more original and different, and you never know, it might just work better.
Another :balloon2: for mini, I think. Wouldn't you agree?
hehe :D
Well i'll read the feedback tomorrow, due bedtime here :)
Potocello
02-27-2009, 00:01
I think mini's reforms are great, i would love to make it more historical myself.
navarro951
02-27-2009, 00:06
oh noes I have just came back from school and I found out that Cicero's new commander is navarro. I hope he doesn't get my avatar killed (again). :juggle2:
I've a question about Consular legions though, which consul owns them/it? I suppose currently only one consul has control of a consular legion because we've only one.
well at the moment we only have the money for 1. In time yes both Consuls will have one.
Actually, I do have to agree that these are some pretty good reforms if we want it to be more historical. I think this is good for the game (directed at Navarro)-maybe we should have an OOC vote on it, but it's your game, so your final decision, and I'll go along with either. But I think this will make our PBM more original and different, and you never know, it might just work better.
Another :balloon2: for mini, I think. Wouldn't you agree?
Its not that im not open for change in the rules, i am. And some of these ideas are great but you have to consider this is a game of incentives. Whether all of them are historically accurate is not always the point, I also want people to have an incentive to be higher or what have you. Like having multiple Tribune of Plebs seems a bit meh...so to speak. If there were a bunch where would be the fun in that, the ToPs is like THE tribune for his time at the position. Or Consuls HAVING to stay in Rome when some of them, like Caesar and Pompeii were, are military men as well as political machines. I also feel to, regarding legion set up, no one brings into count cost and complication. It is not always as easy to give EVERY legion certain troops as we are not yet the rich Rome to be seen in the future. I will review and consider alot of Mini's idea as I see alot of good work and effort in them. Lemme see what I can come up with...
Oh I never expected new ideas to be implemented without editting and work around. I entirely see your point with the issues surrounding gameplay wise though. For all it's accuracy, we still need to have fun playing this game. With open debate and contribution from different people, I'm sure we can make a fine work around. :beam:
navarro951
02-27-2009, 00:23
indeed, now if you will excuse me I must begin editing the library and history thread....(KILL ME NOW!)
Potocello
02-27-2009, 03:35
indeed, now if you will excuse me I must begin editing the library and history thread....(KILL ME NOW!)
have fun! :smash:
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
02-27-2009, 06:14
Wow, pretty thorough as far as rough drafts go, Mini. I second Bean's idea of a balloon to you.
I think that a lot of these rules will absolutely be impossible unless we were to have roughly 20 players, or so - to implement all of the governing positions as well as keep Tribuni in the legions since most RL players won't like the idea of sitting around Roma waiting for anciliaries.
If and when we decide on any rule changes (I still advocate that they be brought about through Charter Ammendments in the Curia, rather than *poof* they magically appear) we can RP the "neccesity" to bring about the changes has arisen, just like the Script describes how the military reforms were brought about through experience / necessity.
I agree. We would need a strong player structure to be able to carry out these reforms. Especially since so many of your ideas require players to have been Praetor.
Of course i'm open for discussion :)
point is that you have to rise a few ranks before u get to have a say.
Der don't have to be 2 tribunes persé, you can also pick one :) same thing for praetor.
and navarro, yes, caesar was a military man.. but you forget that he DID NOT fight his wars when consul (atleast not before the civil war). Eeven after the civil war, where he was kind of a dictator but not yet officially.. there was his Co-consul, staying in Rome!
There was always one consul in Rome if the other had to fight. Which is why i chose the CoF to stay in Rome :)
But he gets to pick his first province after his term, to give an incentive to play him :) After your term is up, you can go play where you want ;p
I agree with all the changes apart from the battle points and the historical armies bit. The battle points make it an extremely long time of not really doing anything in-game whilst a Tribune if serving in the legion and needing that many BP will be extremely boring and I would opt for a more governer role if they were implemented like that. Also the historical armies are cool, but even then not as historical as we are playing on Large setting and I believe them armies were made for small from some other thread?
The sizing does not matter, as it all stays in perspective.
If you play on small, all other factions are small and vice versa.
Battle points will be hard to collect (that's the point) and you will depend on other,senior players to do you a favour and take you in their stack. As in the old days, where friends and family were favoured, or one favour could be exchanged for another. This would lead do: fractions in the senate! :P
Besides, after you've been a Tribunus Militum, you can get appointed quaestorto some city by either the CoF or a provincial governor. Which gives you somethign to do :)
The Celtic Viking
02-27-2009, 12:32
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... what's going on here? I thought I was going to command the Consular Legion, yes? That's, as I've understood it, why it's talk about a new commander of Legio I anyway. But in the rules for the Consul of Finance, it specifically states that the Consul of Finance cannot lead "an imperial legion" (which, as far as I take it, is a leftover since scrolling down where the different types of armies are listed, "imperial legion" doesn't exist - which makes me suspect it actually refers to consular legions now). Have I gotten things all wrong, has there been a mistake or am I going insane here?
Please help a confused Viking out. ~:)
are you talking about the current rules, or my new proposition rules?
Responding to Mini, I mean them sizes were intented for small because they are the closest approximations you can get in EB, 1 - 100 I believe it is. If unit sizes were increased then there would be no point as the proportions are lost and more units are needed. So really keeping the Infantry, Cavalry and Missile troop restrictions is worthwhile but adding something along the lines, 'In Camillian and Polybian periods then Hastati, Principes and Triarii must be used in a legion with equal number with at least one Equite Romani.'
The Celtic Viking
02-27-2009, 12:56
are you talking about the current rules, or my new proposition rules?
The current rules.
While we're on the subject, there are other things I find strange. For example, why can the Consul of Legions set the tax rates? I mean, since one consul's specific responsibility is finances, it's strange that the other Consul can cut in on that and change the CoF's decisions.
Also, question: does "Cannot recruit military units." mean I cannot even add them to the training queue at the command of the CoL? Conversely, does that mean the CoL adds them to the recruitment queue himself?
If it does, then I don't see how the CoF has much say over the finance at all which I really think he should, since the CoL can just add them and that's it, even if the CoF thinks we can't afford it, or something else should be prioritized, it's still final.
I think this should be changed.
everyone
02-27-2009, 13:02
TCV should be referring to the current rules, and I have to disagree with the part about having the 'praetor' rank for a large number of important ranks; it would be similar to what happened earlier in the game when only 2 people (my character, then Asina, and navarro's) could become consuls so they automatically become consuls; which is why now Legati can run as consuls.
Unless perhaps the requirements for the Praetor rank be made lower, or make another rank (e.g. Dux) between one of the ranks you proposed; or the ability to get 'battle points' for participating in a battle (but only half/a fraction of the points of the commander. It might be possible, makes people have an incentive for their avatars to join legions as 2nd-in commands for reasons other than RP.
Another possible suggestion for the proposed promotion thing (if it would come into effect) would be gaining points over the time served such as governing a city as a quaestor (in mini's rank system).
My opinion now is that some/most ranks you proposed are rather hard to attain (seeing as we only have 4 legions and not the lands to support it). so I don't think we should implement them ingame yet, unless there are more chances for avatars to lead armies/gain ranks through time.
gah! TCV took the save just as I got home!
edit: TCV was faster than me again! I am becoming slow like bean from around 12 pages ago :slomo:
and when the CA of removing the Princeps and Promgistrate rule was proposed, it should have came with details describing the new powers of the consul (because there are some things nobody can do if it's not clarified, like moving garrison troops etc)
edit2: TCV, while you're not ending the turn yet, could you let me take it to do some CoL stuff? unless you already ended it and are currently posting the CoF report
actually the composition is not based on numbers.
Just the structure of an historical army reproduced..
besides, A legion as I described, should definately be big enough to face any challenge.
Also bear in mind, that in unruly, or bigger provinces, the provincial governor will have Legates with their legions to cal lreinforcements from :)
Unless perhaps the requirements for the Praetor rank be made lower, or make another rank (e.g. Dux) between one of the ranks you proposed; or the ability to get 'battle points' for participating in a battle (but only half/a fraction of the points of the commander. It might be possible, makes people have an incentive for their avatars to join legions as 2nd-in commands for reasons other than RP.
Another possible suggestion for the proposed promotion thing (if it would come into effect) would be gaining points over the time served such as governing a city as a quaestor (in mini's rank system).
My opinion now is that some/most ranks you proposed are rather hard to attain (seeing as we only have 4 legions and not the lands to support it). so I don't think we should implement them ingame yet, unless there are more chances for avatars to lead armies/gain ranks through time.
Actually I was already under the impression that you gained points when you participated in a battle, commander or not :D
Let's consider you get 0.5 x pts that the commander himself gets. Praetor is not so unattainable.
Consider that in the repulic, a man had best serve on 6 campains at the least when a military tribune to have a decent record :)
Of course we should reward quaestors when governing a city.
2 points per turn when governing a city as quaestor = 24 pts per consuls term (12 turns, right?)
Which would mean they qualify for praetor by the next election :)
TCV should be referring to the current rules, and I have to disagree with the part about having the 'praetor' rank for a large number of important ranks; it would be similar to what happened earlier in the game when only 2 people (my character, then Asina, and navarro's) could become consuls so they automatically become consuls; which is why now Legati can run as consuls.
In the beginning it might seem hard. But it wont be long until all participants have a high rank :)
To make a distinction between players then, at that point in the game, my system of 'people in office having the power' kicks in again.
The Celtic Viking
02-27-2009, 13:17
Everyone, you've actually already done the CoL stuff that turn (I mean, you uploaded the bloody save :laugh4:), though of course there might be new things to change. So sure, go ahead, I'll upload a new save so my CoF changes stays. Then when you're done I take it back and end the turn (and post the CoF stuff. You were lucky though, I was just about to post the save and almost didn't see your post.
This is a great inconvenience to me though, so please don't miss the 24 hours again. :sweatdrop:
everyone
02-27-2009, 13:24
oh, ok sorry for the inconvenience, and more if you've already ended the turn...:sweatdrop:
edit:
Actually I was already under the impression that you gained points when you participated in a battle, commander or not.
I wasn't...but, all those ranks sound rather attainable/reasonable since you stated that
If you wanted historical compostition then it would be better to have 5 Hastati, 5 Principes and Triarii and modify the Triarii unit number to half that of the Hastati and the Principes. Then have 1 Equites,1 each of the Roman reserves and 1 family member. Then the senior Tribunus would gain command of an allied Legion which would consist of no Roman troops but Allies and Mercenaries recruited from Type 4 governments or ones with good Local Support barracks.
Seriously, that would make 1 legion almost afull stack....
insane and expensive.
Basically, and simplifying speaking: only the consul of the legions gets a full stack, all the others get half a stack, and the consul of finances gets a quarter stack to clean up rebels
SwissBarbar
02-27-2009, 15:16
Caivs Avrelivs Cotta (bean) has been attacked by two Epeirote armies, and there's a battle for him.
Please send the save to me through a PM when you're done instead of uploading it here, and don't close any scrolls.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=199&id=4656
:cheerleader: :cheerleader: Battle, Battle :cheerleader: :cheerleader:
Exactly my point mini. To keep it historical would mean spending a ridiculous amount of time and resources recruiting legions but keeping it the way it is now would be much more simpler and to be honest, from what I can see in the save game it looks perfectly fine.
well i'm not saying we have to do it like that.
Just suggested it, for I myself like to command a legion which I know is the real thing, you know :)
It doesn't have to be exactly what I said, but I do feel the necessity for:
1) uniform legions, with exact composition. Just like in ancient Rome
2) 1 legion can only be a half a stack. It was said throughout the world that Rome could beat anything with 4 good legions :) expressing the fact they were good without using numbers. Therefore we should always fight outnumbered.
3) if we use smaller legions, we actually stimulate the cooperation between players, as the provincial governor has to request aide if he feels he cannot beat the enemy alone, and many more possibilities like that.
4) representation of Rome's allies. Rome always fielded legions which had allies supporting them. (Usually these had to do the hard work aswel, eg: die :p)
Yeah, I totally agree with those points but I think to make it work it would be better if we made it so there has to be an equal number of Hastati, Principes and Triarii in a stack with at least 5 allied units.
i fight in the original quincux formations (chequerboard) and i've foudn it easier when you have an uneven amount of troops :)
Besides, the legion composition I gave above, is actually from a manual 'how to play Romans historically' and the part about the legions is being used by a lot of players i know.
Yes I know that, but it is obviously through the use of force diplomacy and this would require everyone to play historically which I know many would not want to do. Like I said, perhaps restrictions are better than actually a consice army make up. Like we already have but a bit more refined perhaps?
like i said: It doesnt need to be the exact historical setup.
But legions should be 9-10 units max, the consular legion 15-18 units.
Legions should also be nearly the same composition
not one legion with 2 hastati, 5 principes and 1 triarii while another legion has 1 hastati, 3 principes and 4 triarii and yet another has 3 principes and 6 cavalry units, you know?
Uniformity! Rome's legions always had the exact same composition, or nearly so.
I do not demand that the composition has to be historical accurate, iI just want each legion to look exactly the same (as far as roman core troops go, the allied part varies from where the legion operates) and that legion size should be kept small (half stack)
SwissBarbar
02-27-2009, 16:50
I second that. As a roman-liking historical-accuracy freak I would like to see that too. It would be boring to operate with fullstacks and just conquer the world. That I can do in a singleplayer campaign too
Exactly :)
Besides, when legions are same composition, players can swap legions more easily, as senators should not govern the same part of the world the whole game :)
Now we could switch every 12 turns :)
And as for legion size: you can conquer half the world with a roman full stack.
Therefore, for challenge's sake: predetermine the composition and units and size :)
This way, everybody has to fight with the same tools, and difference in competence of the player comes to light (which will add much flavour to the RP game :D)
I'd love to see someone with less generalling skills pull his political strings to get command of a legion, only to stuff it up :D for the sake of RP! :D
And I agree with you there. I mean it would be better if there were more restrictions so you can have more variaty yet still keep the historical ssense. Such as, there must be 2 of each core Roman heavy infantry or whatever but there can be more but no more than 4 of each unit or something similar to that.
I still think we should use italian ally troops.
navarro951
02-28-2009, 00:37
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... what's going on here? I thought I was going to command the Consular Legion, yes? That's, as I've understood it, why it's talk about a new commander of Legio I anyway. But in the rules for the Consul of Finance, it specifically states that the Consul of Finance cannot lead "an imperial legion" (which, as far as I take it, is a leftover since scrolling down where the different types of armies are listed, "imperial legion" doesn't exist - which makes me suspect it actually refers to consular legions now). Have I gotten things all wrong, has there been a mistake or am I going insane here?
Please help a confused Viking out. ~:)
sorry that rule was meant to be taken out well...a long time ago. Ignore that.
The Celtic Viking
02-28-2009, 01:17
Ah, thanks. I thought I had really failed to keep up. :sweatdrop:
navarro951
02-28-2009, 01:26
hehe no my bad. Okay uploading all new library pics now...that was some work actually hehe. Our avatars are more spread out now its hard to findem all.
I'm in Epirus :2thumbsup:
navarro951
02-28-2009, 01:35
haha i noticed, also TCV recruit some new RGBs for our newcomers as well as desert. And kill off desert's avatar (something Romanii).
The Celtic Viking
02-28-2009, 01:45
To kill him off I'll undoubtedly have to walk him manually somewhere, alternatively send him off on a boat against pirates. I've just had enough of these Roman names; they've given me yet another reason to hate those pesky little Italians we play as. :shame:
The new avatars will be queued up next time I take the save.
navarro951
02-28-2009, 03:43
sure thing, and you tellin me. Taking away an ancillary is hell! ARGH!
everyone
02-28-2009, 07:13
and about edict 5.3, I'm not sure whether would that apply now that Manius Claudius Cicero is Legatus; because he can only command 8 troops, but the edict requires legio I to be expanded by 2 units.
But I suppose that can be overwritten.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
02-28-2009, 09:43
I updated the Phalerium with everyone's new ranks / promotions etc. Bean, could you update the Campus Martius legion assignments / rosters? I want to make sure that I have the correct openings in the Phalerium.
Commanders, remember to PM me with awards/decorations for your units. Also, remember to bring any decorations for Avatars up in the Curia.
Also, since Cotta is now a provincial governor, will he be giving up command of the Second, to stay in Epidamnos and govern?
everyone
02-28-2009, 09:50
it was sort of agreed upon (in the Curia) that Legio II becomes a provincial legion for Caius Aurelius Cotta's term as Governor, because a governorship comes with a provincial legion.
navarro951
02-28-2009, 17:27
library is updated except for family kids, and overall map progression. Also ill be taking my aunt back home this weekend and will be gone two days. If i can find a way to get on iwill. o and Bean ill get tour PM as soon as i can.
Alright no problem, its not desperate. Take your time
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-01-2009, 19:58
it was sort of agreed upon (in the Curia) that Legio II becomes a provincial legion for Caius Aurelius Cotta's term as Governor, because a governorship comes with a provincial legion.
Where was this agreed upon? I saw no such thing and certainly didn't agree to it. A provincial legion should be raised for him. We don't have the manpower to simply give up an entire legion for him when we're at war on two fronts.
I say recruit a provincial legion and leave the Second in control of the Senior Aemili Legatus.
We certainly did mention it, but i can't remember where.
The Celtic Viking
03-01-2009, 21:47
I didn't see it either, and I would've been against it as well. I say let Caivs continue to control Legio II as Legio II until we have a provincial legion raised for him.
Is that me Caivs or him Caivs?
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-01-2009, 22:13
I'm sure TCV means let Cotta control Legio II until we make a provincial legion - which is fine with me, so long as you don't get to do whatever you please with it as you would a provincial legion. In short, postpone your pronvicial governorship - or at least the freedoms you would have with the armies in that capacity.
SwissBarbar
03-01-2009, 22:49
Technical question:
If a new Legatvs would take over command of Legio II, would he have to choose new tribunes or do they just stay where they are.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-01-2009, 22:51
"New" as in wasn't one of the original tribunes (who are Legati themselves) - OR - "new" as in was one of the tribunes; but is now the legion commander?
I would say in both cases leave the remaining/existing tribunes where they are (bump them up to second in command where applicable) and if available/wanted - open the recruiting in the Campus Martius
The Celtic Viking
03-01-2009, 22:52
I'm sure TCV means let Cotta control Legio II until we make a provincial legion - which is fine with me, so long as you don't get to do whatever you please with it as you would a provincial legion. In short, postpone your pronvicial governorship - or at least the freedoms you would have with the armies in that capacity.
Aside from postponing the provincial governorship, this is exactly what I was saying. You (Cotta) would still command Legio II, but not as your provincial legion so it still belonged to the Senate, and when your provincial legion is raised you take control over it and we assign a new commander to Legio II.
Actually, I think I should say something about this IC...
sooooo... any more thoughts about any of my laws? :p
Got no inet in the weekends, my apologies.
of course I understand that my whole reforms of the ranking system are a bit big and detailed.
And understand that for it to be implemented might take a bigger player base than we have atm.
Yet, there are small things in those rank reforms that can be implemented, which should pose no problem, should a number of peepz want it.
I do want to push some laws through, as my character is a draughtsman, and I want to leave my mark on the game by doing so :)
As for the moment, a tribunus blebis can only make one law, which is ridiculous considering his lawmaking role in ancient role.
So instead of the whole ranks to reform, we might discuss a few ranks at a time?
I still think a trib.plebs should be able to make a few laws in congres, and even a few outside (the latter being laws which may not influence the game mechanics in a heavy way).
I do have a few things in mind :)
If anything, I will be pushing my army reforms through ;)
Laws should be given names to the one draufted them.
Should I get the law of the reforms, it would be something like Lex Amiliae xxxx
The xxx part is open fordiscussion:
a real latin translation of the point of the law (in this case, latin for army reforms)
comic latin for the point of law (rg: reformus Legionis)
Mentioning the lawmaker in the library would be nice aswel :)
Few of my 'laws' which will be posted in the curia soon. This OOC discussion i'll cultivate as 'active lobbying in the forum' :D
Hmz
Maybe I should start spitting my laws :)
I will evoke my right as tribunus of the plebs to make laws in the comita for a few (meaning: no congressional voting) although i do agree that these rules will not affect the core rules/mechanics of this game. (so no rank reforms or anything)
And I'd like to play out the lawmaker card to propose more than 1 law.
Should the GM/general opinion stick to the fact that the tribunus plebis rank be confined to the 1 law on the rules as it is now, i'll leave it at there. Yet my 'revolt' against this rule (and maybe even a few others later on considering i've proposed even bigger reforms) can be seen as the historical emergence of the tribunus plebis in its known form :)
I'll do it IC in the curia one of these hours, and see how far I get ;)
everyone
03-02-2009, 12:43
perhaps you might want to propose it OOC (as in further refining it, and making it more clear), and ask to make those changes OOC without any IC reason.
and the "laws" you refer to are the rank changes thingum you said a page or so ago right? if not, ignore what I said in above
Well, i dropped the rank reform in its being a big chunk :) i will try to reform them in smaller parts :)
but in my current IC post, there are no rank reforms :)
I suggest that everyone reads again my rank reforms a few pages back, so that the discussion can take a 2nd breath.
As for the current laws, dont forget to read my scroll in the curia :-) (spoiler at the end of the post = scroll, for the blind ppl)
everyone
03-02-2009, 13:29
I like the idea of proposing laws, and thread where the commanders update status about the legions they command.
but I don't really agree with the legion reform thing; I think it should only apply for consular legions; since standard legions can be formed anywhere as long as there are 5 infantry, 1 cavalry and 2 missile units (remember the Legatus unit command limit) and another problem is that none of our current settlements can recruit pedites extraordinarii, classical hoplites or "local cavalry"; the only cavalry we got are Equites Romani and (I think) Campanian cavalry.
I still prefer your rank reform things though.
and I just thought of something, isn't the SOT post already an optional place to post something about their legions position etc?
and how do I Latinise "everyone"? :juggle2:
We should dispense with the rule 'can only command x numer of units.
you have either command of the allied units
command of a whole legion
or command of a consular legion
Everything else is unnecessary. (especially if we switch to my rank reforms)
It's good that you like my rank reforms, I hope I can implement them!! Of course a few small adjustment might prove necessary to fit our current playerbase. Also there of course ppl who will receive a new rank according to what they had under the current system.
What I like so much about my own idea, is the fact that elected ppl have ascendancy over ppl that are currently not in office :)
I hope more ppl will give feedback so we can fine tune this, including the GM :)
everyone
03-02-2009, 16:03
after looking through your epic suggestion post, I'm suggesting a few modifications (in bold, inside the quote) and additions (outside the quote). I'm not the GM, but I think some stuff could be made more specific/clear.
rule 2.5: (changes in bold)
2.5 Character Points
To get to the next rank (Rule 2.4) every player must get a certain amount of 'Character points'. Character points are gained from participating in IC events and having your character do something in-game
If character fights or particiaptes in a battle:
"Crushing Defeat" -3 points
"Clear Defeat" -2 point
"Average Defeat" -1 point
"Close Defeat" -1/2 point
"Close Victory" 1 point
"Average Victory" 2 point
"Clear Victory" 3 points
"Heroic Victory" 4 points
A character who participated in the same battle would earn half the amount of how much the commander earned; when the number by the former is at a decimal place, its absolute value would be rounded down. (e.g. -1.5 CPs would be -1, 2.5 CPs would be 2)
If a character governs a province or acts an assistant to the governor; CPs would be awarded per in-game year for the level of settlement they govern:
1CP for villages, towns, large towns
2CP for Cities, Large Cities
3CP for Huge Cities
___________________________________________________________________________
4. Armies (added 4.3, so number changes are obvious)
4.1 Consular Legion
Imperial Legions will consist of a minimum of 8 infantry cohorts, 4 ranged cohorts, and 2 cavalry cohorts; and will only be lead by a standing Consul.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments.
The owner of a Consular Legion will determine who commands the units, where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Only Consular Legions can have “Eagles” in them.
4.2 Standard Legions
Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; the Standard legions are to be made up of only Roman units (hastati, principes, triarii, cohortes, leves, etc)
The Consul of the Legions will decide who commands it, but it is up to the senate to decide where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Standard Legions can be created only during a Congressional Session by the Senate using an Edict for that.
All Standard Legions are marked with a number corresponding to how many Legions stand in Rome and where the Legion was created: 'I Legion of Roma, II Legion of Kyrene , III Legion of Bonnonia etc.'
Standard Legions can be disbanded only during the Congressional Session by the Senate through an Edict.
4.3 Allied legions
Allied legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; Allied legions are to consist of regional/allied units, such as Gallic units in Gaul, Italic allies in Italy, Galatian units in Galatia, etc.
(the rest are the same as standard legions so I won't waste words here)
______________________________________________________________________________________________
So, here i'll propose a few new rules/mechanics.
Mind you that, to prevent multiposting, I might edit quite a lot ;)
All of this is of course open for discussion and coutns as a suggestion, as I am not the GM.
First of all, I would like to define 'pomerium', as it will return frequently:
pomerium in this game will be: all cities from arretium/ariminum down to Rhegium.
About Ranks: these are player ranks, mostly concerns governement.
Tribunus Militum
Requirements: None (Training Stage)
Influence: 1 if at all
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
Penalties:
(1) The Tribunus is second or third in command of a legion. He is young and therefore must learn how to properly lead and is required to serve in a Legion under a Legatus for at least 2 battles to be promoted or earn 3 CPs
(2) May not lead an army nor propose laws; but is allowed to vote.
(3) Cannot Run for Consul
(4) Can only join a Legion that has a legate in it or find a governor/quaestor who is willing to accept him as a temporary or permenant aid/assistant governor.
Tribune of the Plebs
Speaks for the Plebs in the Comita.
Requirements: Must be elected to position. Atleast 2 tribunes should be in office.
Influence: 1+1
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can propose one edict/charter amendment per congressional council;
(2) Can veto.
(3)The Tribune of the Plebs term is two Consul Terms long. (6 years)
(4) Can issue 3 laws/edicts outside the congressional council(representing their lawmaker role in the republic). These laws will take 2 turns before going into effect,giving the other Tribune(s) the chance to veto.
Penalties:
(1) May not lead an army
(2) Cannot Run for Consul until term is over
(3) Must remain in Rome.
Privatuus
Requirements: completed the Tribunus Militum training stage but not have been assigned to any other office.
influence: 1
powers:
(1) May be appointed as a Legatus
(2) may be appointed as a second in-command of any legion
(3)
Legatus
Requirements: Must have served in at least 2 battles as a Tribunus Militum. Must be appointed by Senate/Consul/Provincial Governor. This office lasts for a 12-turn congressional session if appointed ONLY by the senate and may be extended via another edict
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Is given command(means if he's assigned, he will have command of a legion, the whole purpose of this offices thing) of a standard or allied legion.
(2) can propose one edict per congressional session
(3) may serve as an aid to a Provincial governor and command one or more of the governor's provincial legions.
Dux
Requirements: Not assigned to any office, but a honorary rank for military achievements; must have commanded and won 5 victories of any sort; a defeat means a -1 to the amount of battles won.
influence: 2
powers:
(1) Can propose 1 edict/charter amendment per Congresssional session
(2) Can have 2 units of their choice as their Bodyguard Army. These Units must be available as mercenaries or recruitable in the region where the general was in the time he got this rank. These units can not be disbanded nor can they be removed from the Player by the Dictator. The units shall be spawned via console by the GameMaster upon confirmation from the player who is the Dux.
Quaestor (edits to become like current 'Aedile' rank)
Requirements: Must have been appointed by the consul of Finance OR voted into position during a congressional session; AND have 12 'character points'.
There may be an unlimited number of Quaetors; voting of Quaetors is on a yes/no/abstain poll, if the candidate has more 'no' than 'yes', he would not be voted in.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose two Edict/Charter Amendment per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can be given a province to govern (which means not all Quaestors govern provinces) govern the Province they have been given by the CoF, provincial governor, or edict.. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(3) May control any unit that begins the 'turn' in the city he governs, unless it is commanded by another player and part of/to be part of a Legion.
(4) Must be appointed by Consul of Finance or edict
Penalties
(1) Cannot command a Standard, Consular or Allied Legion
Praetor
Requirements: Must have been Quaestor OR Tribunus plebis. Must have 20 'character points'. Must also been elected into the position for the 12-turn consul term.
There may be an unlimited number of Praetors; voting of Praetors is on a yes/no/abstain poll, if the candidate has more 'no' than 'yes', he would not be voted in.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 3
Powers:
(1) Can lead 1 legion of any type
(2) Can propose 3 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(3) Will get to choose province to govern when a term as praetor is over, after both consuls have chosen theirs as the congressional session ends. If there are not enough provinces then the characters' governorship would be decided by Character Points.
(4) Can act as the judge during trials (e.g. IC events or something like that).
Consul of Finance
Only Consul of Finance will end the “turn”.
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any building in any settlements he wishes and set the tax rate in any settlement unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot recruit military units.
(2) Gains automatically control of the Consular Legio II. This legion will be stationed in a fort outside Capua. It may never enter Latium unless passing through or if there is an enemy near Rome. Legion will be used only to clean up rebels inside the pomerium ONLY.
(3) Must be stationed in Roma when not commanding Legio II. The finance consul must always be in Rome to govern. Unless fighting off rebels.
(4) All diplomats (not spies or assassins) are under the command of the Consul of Finance. He can move them and use them as he sees fit.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get first pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(9) Can exclude 1 avatar from participating in the congres. the so called: "lictors, remove this man" move ;) Basically only to be used when people are truely annoying in the Curio, or rebellious.
Consul of the Legion’s
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any military unit in any settlements he wishes unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot construct buildings.
(2) Assumes control of the Consular Legio I (composition, see below).
(3) May choose his theater of war.
(4) All Assassins and Spies (unless specified) are under command of the Consul of the Legion’s. He can move them and use them in any way he wishes.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get second pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
Princeps Senatus
The Princeps Senatus is the “primus inter pares”. That indicates that the person so described is technically equal, but looked upon as an authority of special importance by his peers.
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Leader.
Influence: 3 + 2 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 5
Powers:
(1) Can propose 3 Edicts/Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(3) Once during his reign, the Princeps Senatus can automatically assume the post of dictator. The Princeps Senatus must declare he is exercising that right. He will then be appointed Dictator of Rome with no election. This right can only be invoked once. (penalty to influence after)
(4) Has the right to veto 3 propositions from the consuls&praetors, representing his influence on senior senators. However CAN NOT veto any law by the Tribunus Plebis.
(steal retinue power removed)
Provincial Governor
Requirements: Must be appointed to this rank by the Senate OR be a consul/praetor. Must have been Legatus.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 2 (isn't 'Influence' already 'vote weight'? Something I forgot to clarify)
Powers:
(1) Can govern the Province(s) they have been given. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(2) Can not propose any of Edicts or Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can Prioritize one building in any build queue in any settlement in his Province(s).
(4) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can destroy one building in any settlement. Buildings in the barracks lines cannot be destroyed with this power, unless they cannot be used by the Romani.
(5) Can move any units in the borders of his Province(s) in any way he wishes unless they are controlled by another Player, including spies that are recruited from his province(s) and not under the control of the Consul of Legions.
(6) Every Provincial Governor will have an 6 unit Provincial Legion. The provincial legion may consist of any unit the governor wishes. The Provincial legion's upkeep is to be paid via the Forum Trapezai. The amount of Legions per province may increase for every 5 stat points the governor has
(7) Can appoint another Senator to govern any city he choses in his Governorship.
(8) the governorship lasts for as long as the character is alive; unless the character is a Consul, in which it only lasts during the Consul's term.
The basic idea is that ppl who are 'in office' have a bigger grip on the current events during their office, while after their term, they go govern a province and ergo will have less to say than the peepz currently in charge.
The mechanic of 'office peep' choosing their provinces, will ensure that there will be a change in provinces often enough. Everybody get's the chance (or obligation) to control a different province in the course of the game.
Let me also clarify that 'province' is not the same as (city)
For example: provincia Gallia Cisalpina will be: bononia, mediolanum patavium aquilea. basically everthing above arretium. This will all be in the control of 1 governor, but the governor can choose quaestors to govern the other cities there.
For the defenition of provinces, this will be dynamic. As the empire expands/declines we can make more or bigger provinces and vice versa.
As everyone execpt the consul can only command 1 legion, in later parts of the game there will be provinces that require more than 1 legion to operate. This is were the rank of Legate comes into play.
A provincial governor may request a certain grand strategy in his province from his legates, but basically each one does what he wants with his legion :)
(removed a large part about the legions because I'm not discussing it here)
There, ranks and legions redefined. Just read it, ask any question, give feedback
overall, I like the idea of the "offices" system, it is more "Rome"-ish, and read the part where I editted about the Praetor thing.
And the Legates serving under the Governor thing is also quite nice; like LotR's feudal thing where the Legatus is the Governor's "vassal"
the Privatuus thingy, I changed it for characters who hold no office
and Mini's description is also very convincing.
But I think these reforms should come into place a bit later in the game. like when we have around 25 provinces
The stuff about the forming Houses and provincial government should also be revised accordingly if this rank changes takes place
this is rather disorganised because it's a very long post
4. Armies (added 4.3, so number changes are obvious)
4.1 Consular Legion
Imperial Legions will consist of a minimum of 8 infantry cohorts, 4 ranged cohorts, and 2 cavalry cohorts; and will only be lead by a standing Consul.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments.
The owner of a Consular Legion will determine who commands the units, where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Only Consular Legions can have “Eagles” in them.
4.2 Standard Legions
Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; the Standard legions are to be made up of only Roman units (hastati, principes, triarii, cohortes, leves, etc)
The Consul of the Legions will decide who commands it, but it is up to the senate to decide where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Standard Legions can be created only during a Congressional Session by the Senate using an Edict for that.
All Standard Legions are marked with a number corresponding to how many Legions stand in Rome and where the Legion was created: 'I Legion of Roma, II Legion of Kyrene , III Legion of Bonnonia etc.'
Standard Legions can be disbanded only during the Congressional Session by the Senate through an Edict.
4.3 Allied legions
Allied legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; Allied legions are to consist of regional/allied units, such as Gallic units in Gaul, Italic allies in Italy, Galatian units in Galatia, etc.
(the rest are the same as standard legions so I won't waste words here)
Well i just want to comment that there never were roman legions and allied legions..
1 legion would exist of one roman half and one allied half.
until marius reformed the army and italy was massively enfranchised into the roman citizenship. Then we had fully roman legions (since the former italians were now romans).
So until the marian reforms, i'd like to see the same thing. this is reflected in my army compositions i suggested.
Also the 'UNIFORMIZATION' of the legions is a very important factor.
A composition should be standard. Not just 5 mellee units, 2 ranged etc.
Roman armies were all the same (except for the allied half, which varied a bit, but only by a hair).
Therefore, 1 legion of max 10-12 units, composed as I said, would give the historical feel.
I also think making legions uniform is important when we start electing people.
As I said before, it should be normal that a provincial governor switches provinces every 1 or 2 consul-terms (12turns?) and by giving everyone an exact same legion, there can never be any discussion about: player skills, favoritism, or god knows what.
Standard legions mean swappable legions mean a transparant financial government mean much easier for everybody.
when it comes to your remarks to the rank system, i have no comments since most are clarifications.
I wasn't really sure what the influence stands for in the current rules, so I added my own vote weights :)
I also removed the spies thing for the COL, since it would be easier if the provincial governor would control the spies in his province.
I also would like to point out, that in my system, a province is not necessarily a city. (shouldn't any have read it in the OP) A province is an area to be determined by the senate (meaning we can adjust it by laws) and might contain more than 1 city.
The Celtic Viking
03-02-2009, 17:16
I also removed the spies thing for the COL, since it would be easier if the provincial governor would control the spies in his province.
So what about spies in enemy territory, or in provinces where there is no provincial governor?
Then by rights they go to the nearest provincial governor, as he wants the intel for border patrol.
Would that mean Cotta could never become Quaestor, seeing as thats a lower rank. He'd have to be deomoted to Dux, and since he was never Tribunus Plebis or Quaestor par se, he could never be a Praetor. Which is kinda annoying. Perhaps we can sort something out for the BtSH veterans, who would mostly lose out on this new rank system, and then they can start afresh like everyone else when they choose new characters.
Oh, and should we have provincial governer reports, like the consul reports, seeing as they control tax, building and intelligence of their area?
Like I said, those who have a high rank atm, will be able to go for governor/consul.
Seeing as you have a high rank atm, we could say you've already been praetor or eligiable for becoming one.
Elegiable please. :2thumbsup:
Otherwise I think the reforms are a good idea. Navarro's still away and busy, so we might have to wait for him to reply
The Celtic Viking
03-02-2009, 19:51
Then by rights they go to the nearest provincial governor, as he wants the intel for border patrol.
Personally I would prefer that it would stay centralized to either or both consuls as it is, but they could outsource control, raise spies for others or something like that. It's easier, and I don't really see the point making them completely anyone's. Besides, this would automatically give Cotta possession of all spies at the moment, which isn't quite right.
Edit: I also agree with giving PGs possibility to raise agents like they can with military units. That could be another solution.
I would prefer provincial governers to have the right to recruit a certain number of their own agents. Perhaps an amount tied to their rank or number of provinces, and then their agents names in their SOT.
Elegiable please. :2thumbsup:
Otherwise I think the reforms are a good idea. Navarro's still away and busy, so we might have to wait for him to reply
Well, we have time to implement changes as big as the ranks :)
seeing as everybody should atleast voice an opinion first maybe.
I do like to get one with the laws in the curia though.
SwissBarbar
03-02-2009, 21:03
I'd have no problem with voting for these laws outside a senatorial session.
Actually they look very promising. Standardizing the legions is very according to my taste. And gettig battle points for participation in battle (though not as commander) makes very much sense too, the character did not just watch the struggle from outside but also made his experiences and learned from his commander. Of course he gets less battle points, for the commander has to think about strategy etc. even more than his officers, but as I see also you already thought of that @ everyone
Therefore, 1 legion of max 10-12 units, composed as I said, would give the historical feel.
I say 10, so we could merge legions if required.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-02-2009, 21:51
These new rules are all nice looking; but we have a proper system for bringing them into play in our current game: They must be proposed as Single Charter Amendments by a player of the rank Dux or higher, and then voted on in a Congressional Session.
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. And additionally, the Tribunus Pleibeus can only propose such edicts / charter amendments during the congressional session, not during normal game pla, per our active rules.
Meh, I'm a tribune of the plebs, i can push my laws through the comita ;-)
SwissBarbar
03-02-2009, 22:07
You're right. Then we could make an emergency session. In the name of fun and accuracy I think we should not be bureaucratic.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-02-2009, 22:27
Meh, I'm a tribune of the plebs, i can push my laws through the comita ;-)
Actually, you can't. The rules regarding the rank of Tribunue of the plebs don't give you that authority. Even if it happened like that in real life, you need to adhere to the game rules or else we will have chaos.
I responded IC in the Curia to these ideas - they're good laws, and would make the game different, more interesting in some ways, and more fun; but we must respect the rules that we have. If everyone (I mean every player, not you, 'everyone') did what they wanted we'd have had civil wars by now, which would have destroyed us without ever even conquering Taras!
Actually, you can't. The rules regarding the rank of Tribunue of the plebs don't give you that authority. Even if it happened like that in real life, you need to adhere to the game rules or else we will have chaos.
I responded IC in the Curia to these ideas - they're good laws, and would make the game different, more interesting in some ways, and more fun; but we must respect the rules that we have. If everyone (I mean every player, not you, 'everyone') did what they wanted we'd have had civil wars by now, which would have destroyed us without ever even conquering Taras!
1) chaos is fun
2) playing by the rules is boring. If every politician in history would have played by the rules...
3) as change is pioneered by one politician not playing by the rules, it's nice that I cna act as the replay of the becoming of a tribune of the plebs in its ultimate, best know form. it's nicely RP and it has a link to history
4) have an open mind and see the fun in this bending of the rules. Instead of focussing on a rigid structure which would dull the game rp.
SwissBarbar
03-02-2009, 22:47
Revolution ^^
Mini, I have to agree with TCM. I like your laws to make it more historical, but you can't just decide that the game rules don't apply to you. By signing up for the game you agree to play by our rules. By all means bend IC rules, let your character bend the rules, not you. Otherwise we can't keep control on the game and everyone just does what they want. I could just say I want war in Greece, so I'm going to just take Ambrakia and Pella and then sit back and say, 'Well, I could so I did' in the Curia and ignore everybody. It's not fair. I personally suggest you wait to the next congressional session, then use your CA to propose that Tribunes of the Plebs can act as they did historically. That will give everyone what they want. I dont see why anyone would vote against that. TCM and I arent against these new rules you propose, we're against the way your proposing them. Can you respect that?
meh
by the next voring, i'll be out of office a a tribune, so where doest hat leave me :)
And I did bend the rules IC, as I took the evolution of the tribunus plebis into the game and into IC and acted like it.
I admit there has to be a game structure, but there has to be room for things like this. Especially since you know the rule will be implemented. Why not play ball IC from the start then? You can howl all you want in the curia, and then let me do my thing in the comitia.
then you IC'ed you followed the game rules, but still had to see the laws come standing because i did it through the people.
Don't see why it shouldn't be fun.
The Celtic Viking
03-02-2009, 23:09
No, mini, you don't get to ignore the rules and just do whatever you want to do. It doesn't work that way. The rules are like they are, and you must follow them if you wish to continue playing this game.
Iskander 3.1
03-02-2009, 23:14
Hey everyone, newbie here! I've been reading the last several pages of this and the Curia and I wanted to say that I can't wait to become a part of this! For what it's worth, here's my idea about legion uniformity vs. different general's styles: keep the Roman cohorts the same between legions, but allow the legion commander to have some say in the composition of the alae. (I don't think I read about this anywhere in the rules, if I missed it, forgive me:dizzy2:).
Anyways, I can't wait to start out and work my way up the ladder!
Iskander 3.1
03-02-2009, 23:26
(Obviously something that could be introduced IC! Just thought I'd suggest it here)
Hope there are no bad feelings ;)
I just felt I had to push the limits. Only way to do that is to put pressure IC and OOC ;)
It would have been fun if I had gotten away with it :D
But one more question: Do I have to retract my laws?
I'd like to see my name still on those laws ;)
everyone
03-03-2009, 10:49
perhaps we should have something like LotR's rule change and Charter amendment thing; where Rule Changes can be proposed by any player and voted on by the rest of the players and such, while CA's remain the same; perhaps I'll quote from TinCow to make it easier to understand:
3.4 – Codex Amendments: Amendments require a two-thirds majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect permanently, or until repealed by another Codex Amendment. Codex Amendments can only be enforced by IC means. Codex Amendments cannot contradict the Game Rules.
3.5 – Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. TinCow can veto any proposed Rule Change, but does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as TinCow sees fit.
if we were to use it in BtSH, I think somebody should propose it the next Congressional session and see whether it passes.
That sounds rather good. That way we do not need to be in congres to apply any rule changes.
I would only consider the rank reforms as rule changes. That way we can already vote on these (in their latest form).
The other proposed things (legion reforms, war intel and law names) should be the normal way, as these aren't exactly game rules changes.
I'd say we implement Everyone's suggestion immediately. Or atleast an emergancy voting.
Otherwise it'll drag on for another week or so.
I'd be up for that, but let Navarro have a say before we change his rules
The Celtic Viking
03-03-2009, 11:53
What everyone said had nothing to do about sessions, so I have no idea why you think that would change at all.
But one more question: Do I have to retract my laws?
I'd like to see my name still on those laws ;)
Well, you haven't actually made any laws, just proposed them out of session which simply means they can't be voted for (which in turn means they can't be taken into effect).
You'll have to wait until the next session begins before you can make one Charter Amendment, and it won't have your name on it even if it succeeds. :shame:
Anyway, I won't call an emergency session for this. It isn't an emergency.
Ooh harsh Consul :laugh4:
Cultured Drizzt fan
03-03-2009, 11:54
I like the Idea, but agree this really isnt a pressing isue, it can wait
which one? we've had a lot of ideas thrown around recently
Cultured Drizzt fan
03-03-2009, 11:56
minis reforms
I don't want an emergancy sessions for the reforms.
I want one to vote for Everyone's proposal concerning changes in rules having a different way of voting (meaning, out of congressional)
The Celtic Viking
03-03-2009, 12:08
I don't want an emergancy sessions for the reforms.
I want one to vote for Everyone's proposal concerning changes in rules having a different way of voting (meaning, out of congressional)
That's not what he said, nor is that enough for an emergency session either.
and as the Event Rules permit, I may move Manius Claudius and Legio I to Massilia as soon as they are done retraining. (but I need somebody, such as the CoF who could open the console to help me move_character Manius and Legio I to Massilia once I state so in my SOT, or in any other place)
I can try, but I cannot promise any success. Roman names have me beaten so far.
everyone
03-03-2009, 12:16
I think you could for Manius Claudius, I've checked for its possibility, so far he's the only guy named "manius" in the game.
and so far there has been nothing in the FAQ and rules which define a Consul's ability to propose CAs and Edicts; which means taking Manius Claudius' rank as Legatus, he can't propose any CA's yet (unless I quickly fight some battles and win.....:idea2:)
meh :(
All I want, is that those laws will bear my name. Can't be hard to understand now is it :)
everyone
03-03-2009, 12:52
and I remember seeing some concern from the previous page about some veteran players afraid of losing their current ranks and reputation. I would refine my comment/suggested improvements on Mini's rank change suggestion on how it would be implemented (if it is) and transit from the current state to the new state.
But I can't now because I'm finishing my homework and am excited to play Empire Total War
oh yes I just bought the game today, a few hours ago just as the shopkeeper has yet to key in its price after placing it on the shelves. :smash::smash::smash:
hehe I have got it on pre-order on amazon.uk
So it wil ltake a few more days for it to get here in Belgium. Not that I am so excited to play it. Demo was aweful, and the whole gunpowder warfare aint my things.
As to the reforms and their transit, as I already told bean: a few of the higher ranking players atm, will receive corresponding ranks, meaning they will be able to get themselves elected praetor/consul right away.
The reason also why I wanted it in emergancy session is the following:
it will take us atleast another week to reach the next normal session.
Then we need to approve the reforms.
then it will take another 2 weeks to reach a next session where we can hold elections?
In one thing this game is historically correct: the inertion of the senate :)
everyone
03-03-2009, 13:18
well, to start by quoting you
I would like to see the brilliant minds who conceived these laws
he has been here, or one of them, I don't know how it started, but you can ask TinCow or one of the previous guys in charge of WotS (and older massive PBM)
the current senate thing meeting is also rather based off WotS, and WotS is "Will of the Senate", which as you can infer from "senate", is a Roman RPG.
and these two weeks can be watiable, and Manius Claudius does not have any IC reason to call an emergency congressional session. (unless by chance, the Carthaginians cross the straits of Messena)
my sentence was: I would like to see these brilliant men rewarded.
Meaning that I want to reward players who make up laws.
I dont want to 'see' them :p
I understand what your saying, but what if someone votes against a law just because of the name? Doesnt want to give the person basically a free advertisement even though its a good law?
everyone
03-03-2009, 14:06
that Lex Aemilia Lexnomen Minius thing is rather crative, I suppose it could be used as an alternative to the proper method of proposing edicts. but it should only be minor, and the current system is in place to keep track of the laws proposed during the session. maybe it could be implemented into something like "edict 13.2: Lex Claudia Thingum Everyonium: all senatores must begin their speeches with the phrase 'I am not wearing my socks'"
I understand what your saying, but what if someone votes against a law just because of the name? Doesnt want to give the person basically a free advertisement even though its a good law?
that's sort of the point, take Publius Atilius who did not want to second Manius Claudius' CA's during a congressional session because Manius Claudius was then "heres/promagistrate" and Publius Atilius does not recognise that rank and therefore did not second the CA's.
(OOC: as my examples: Lex + Gens name + somethign that resembles latin containing the point of the law. Ending with your forum name latinized :p PS: not sure if it is Lex Amilia or Lex Aemiliae. Must consult my sources.
and I'm still not sure how to latinise my laws in this format:
Lex Claudia Thingum Everyonium?
edit: I editted my post
It would be foolish and childlishc to refuse a good law because of the name, now would it :)
Besides, if you would not note on a law which has my name, that would mean you do not like me.
And if you do not like, then you would not vote for my law, whichever name that law has :)
The Celtic Viking
03-03-2009, 15:37
On the point of names and voting for/against because of a name, that's no argument against it. Pvblivs Atilivs have already voted for or against based on who made a proposition, as everyone points out. It's all RP, and there's nothing wrong with that.
and I'm still not sure how to latinise my laws in this format:
Lex Claudia Thingum Everyonium?
What about mine, then?
"Lex Atilia Socializedum Peanutsus The Celtus Vikingus"?
SwissBarbar
03-03-2009, 15:59
No you don't need that, since you're devine. You're name says all:
The Celtic Viking
or in Greek
theós keltikoi vikingai
or in Latin
deus gallus vikingus pater noster deflorus virgii vestalis.......
The Celtic Viking
03-03-2009, 16:45
You have a point there. I think I'll go with the Latin translation, just because we're playing as Romans here. It's more... historically accurate that way. :laugh4:
SwissBarbar
03-03-2009, 16:58
feel free to use it at any time :laugh4: :laugh4:
or in Latin
deus gallus vikingus pater noster deflorus virgii vestalis.......
The Celtic Viking our Father who likes Vestal Virgins?
The Celtic Viking our Father who likes Vestal Virgins?
:laugh4:
The Celtic Viking our Father who likes Vestal Virgins?
deflorus would be deflowered ;p
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-03-2009, 21:53
Wow, lots goes on in one day - Welcome Iskander II! Hope you enjoy playing!
Navarro, I know you're busy with family stuff; but your thoughts would weigh heavily in this discussion since it is your game, afterall.
This next congressional session is going to be a doozy!
He's not got a computer with him, so I doubt hes even checking. He's got a lot of reading to do when he comes back. I hope he's alright
even more I hope his aunt is alright.
Well, to be honest we know shes not alright...
Potocello
03-03-2009, 23:21
Does anyone know what's up with the Legio III? I guess i should know seeing as i'm in control but i don't really know what it's supposed to be doing :oops:
Your still in my goddamn city, eating all my food and shizz. Get out! Go to Massilia and fight some Carthies like your supposed to :2thumbsup:...ikts uncomfortable having TCM so close to me
Potocello
03-03-2009, 23:36
Hahaha Massalia it is! I'll take the save later, stupid SAT prep stuff is really cramping my style.
Afraid of TCM slipping into Cotta's tent with a dagger eh? Any thing's possible...
Yes, a dagger...if thats what you wanna call it...we all have different names i guess
navarro951
03-04-2009, 00:32
im back home guys, im going to be catching up. but i would appreciate it, if at all possible, that all BIG points of interest or questions about all this new idea/rules/ect. be PMd to me so i can respond in a better approach. thank you.
The Celtic Viking
03-04-2009, 00:37
Muhahahaa...owned
"Deflowering" means taking someone's virginity. ~;)
By the way, I completely forgot that I'm supposed to end the turn today, that's why I haven't done it yet. I have to go to bed now too, so I can't do it until tomorrow. I get off early though so I should have it done shortly after noon tomorrow. Sorry guys. :embarassed:
Iskander 3.1
03-04-2009, 04:13
For roleplay purposes, does anybody know what legion my character (Sextvs Cornelivs Scapvla) was fighting with, and whom he was fighting against, when he received his promotion?
Potocello
03-04-2009, 04:34
Yes, a dagger...if thats what you wanna call it...we all have different names i guess
oh you dog, you
Iskander 3.1
03-04-2009, 05:20
I get off early though
This along with deflowering....sorry it's too easy.:laugh4:
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-04-2009, 06:39
Bean, I'm hurt.....truly hurt that you can't stand being close to me? That's not what you told me before ;-)
Scapula, I believe, was MotH for.......Quaestor Caius Aurelius Cotta in the Legio II Latium when he fought 2 Epirote armies in Illyria Hellenike........so, you would be part of that legion - I believe. I may be wrong. But, It looks like his Tribuni are full at the moment. Maybe you can get a spot with them when he takes his own Prov. Legion and a spot opens there - that is, if you want to stay with him. I believe that right now the Legio I Apulia has an opening since Consul, Dux Publius Atilius Regulus assumed his new command.
SwissBarbar
03-04-2009, 07:56
Welcome Iskander II :smash: :smash:
Sure you can join with us at Legio II, if you like, when the spot is open.
No Iskanders guy was from Cicero, Mini's guy was the Legio II one. So I guess you might be in the Legio I already or your in city somewhere...?
@TCM, well I don't like to let my true feelings be shown too often...even though thats a complete lie and everyone knows it :laugh4:...I'd prefer it if you could keep your 'dagger' to yourself, and TCV needs to take more time in his deflowering. It's well worth it :beam:
Oh, and can legion commanders PM me with the details of their legion...I've forgotten to update the Campus Martius in a while and I'm a bit lost of whose where. Ta
everyone
03-04-2009, 12:48
For roleplay purposes, does anybody know what legion my character (Sextvs Cornelivs Scapvla) was fighting with, and whom he was fighting against, when he received his promotion?
well.....he's just from Legio I, or more specifically adopted from the time Manius Claudius was stationed in Segestica. I haven't made an IC background, you can make one for Scapula (when OOC I'll use their cognomens), but if concerns Cicero in any IC way, I think you might want to PM me to see if Cicero agrees with the story you made for Scapula
The Celtic Viking
03-04-2009, 12:53
You both realize you're going straight to Hel when you die, right? No fun in Valhall for you, Blasphemers! You will dread the day when Ragnarök comes. :brood:
Iskander 3.1
03-04-2009, 17:31
He was in the city of Segestica acting as governor but he's moving towards Rome now. It would make sense to keep him in Legio I since that's where he started so I'll go ahead and place an application in the Campvs Martivs.
You will dread the day when Ragnarök comes. :brood:
That's ok,my very good friend Mr C. Norris will kick his arse, like so:
Ragnarök >> :shame::whip: << Mr C. Norris
SwissBarbar
03-04-2009, 22:52
Ragnarök is not a person, it's kind of Judgment Day :laugh4: :laugh4: i wonder how chuck norris would do against Jörmungandr or Fenrir :smash: :smash:
I mean - compare:
Chuck:
http://www.adiumxtras.com/images/pictures/chuck_norris_random_fact_generator_6_3957_2224_image_2578.jpg
Jörmungandr (and yes...its the nice one on the right..):
http://www.drachenserver.de/dragonimages/data/media/2/drachen725.jpg
Fenrir:
http://home.earthlink.net/~vr2lrose/lnk/fenris.jpg
Cultured Drizzt fan
03-04-2009, 23:11
yes your right, I was leaning towards Ragnarok but after those pictures I put all my money on Chuck Norris. I mean look at his quiet intensity, I almost soiled myself
Potocello
03-04-2009, 23:27
My money is on Chuck, i mean c'mon just watch Delta Force...
Ragnarök is not a person, it's kind of Judgment Day :laugh4: :laugh4: i wonder how chuck norris would do against Jörmungandr or Fenrir :smash: :smash:
He would completely pwn them.
The Celtic Viking
03-04-2009, 23:44
Chuck Norris may have been fun before, but now he is boring. Seriously, done to death. Let him rest in peace, please. :shame:
Swiss is quite right, though. Ragnarök is the final battle - and the events leading up to it - between the gods and heroes of Valhall against the gathered forces of Loke. There is no escape from it: all you can do is pick a side. Since you're going against me, you're going with Loke, and that means you will lose. Loke will be slain by Tyr, the sun devoured by Midgårdsormen, the world will be sunk under water until it re-emerges, fertilized and green once more, with a new sun born by the old right before it was swallowed, and only a few gods and two humans will survive. The future does not look good for you, foolish human.
I shotgun one of the two humans. Beat that! I also give the second place to Swiss. Muahahhaaa! The we shall rule the world!
Anyway, I dont see any Fenrir facts like:
When Fenrir works out, he doesn't push up, he pushes the Earth down,
Or Fenrir is the only man who can slam a revolving door
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 00:05
That's because Fenrisulven is a bloody wolf, and a huge one at that. He has no need for it; his strength is backed up by action, not fairy tales.
Sorry to say it though, you won't be one of the humans. Those places have already been taken. What their names are I do not remember though, for I don't bother much with the business of humans. It bores me; I operate on a much higher level than that.
Cultured Drizzt fan
03-05-2009, 00:45
Just because I looked those names up in my HUGE mythology book, the two humans are Lif (the guy I think), and Lifthrasir (I am gonna assume this is a girl).
Hey TCV you seem to know a lot about this, there is something in this book about Naglfar, a ship made of dead men’s toenails. Is that true? Other than that lot of hardcore stuff, lot of skull splitting and gods being swallowed whole, probably the most gory/awesome Final battle I know about.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-05-2009, 01:42
That's because Fenrisulven is a bloody wolf, and a huge one at that.
I'd wager that Sesshomaru and certainly Inutaisho/Tounga could have an excellent battle with this overgrown lap dog. Perhaps even InuYasha and his entire crew + Tetsusaiga could beat him
Cultured Drizzt fan
03-05-2009, 01:56
well considering Fenrisulven manages to kill the KING of the norse pantheon I would say whoever goes up against him is screwed, utterly.
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 02:17
Just because I looked those names up in my HUGE mythology book, the two humans are Lif (the guy I think), and Lifthrasir (I am gonna assume this is a girl).
Hey TCV you seem to know a lot about this, there is something in this book about Naglfar, a ship made of dead men’s toenails. Is that true? Other than that lot of hardcore stuff, lot of skull splitting and gods being swallowed whole, probably the most gory/awesome Final battle I know about.
Lif (transl. "life") and Lifthrasir (transl. "the one who clings to life"), that's right. Thank you. You're spot on with the genders as well.
As for Naglfar, yup, that's right. It brings in reinforcements for Loke in Ragnarök. What do you need me for? ~;p
well considering Fenrisulven manages to kill the KING of the norse pantheon I would say whoever goes up against him is screwed, utterly.
Well, to be fair Oden's power was more in wisdom, poetry and knowledge than battle, though his skills in the latter still cannot be underestimated. His sons would be the ones to kill Fenrisulven.
I'd wager that Sesshomaru and certainly Inutaisho/Tounga could have an excellent battle with this overgrown lap dog. Perhaps even InuYasha and his entire crew + Tetsusaiga could beat him
"Overgrown lapdog"? Your underestimation of his size is terrifying. He is huge. I doubt very much those people you speak of could beat him. Regardless, it is all a pointless discussion: be they humans they will fight each other, be they something else they will die regardless of who kills them. So it is foretold, so it is to be. :grin:
It's true. Ragnarok is officially the awesomest apocalypse ever!
http://www.cracked.com/article_14977_p5.html
Cultured Drizzt fan
03-05-2009, 03:35
As for Naglfar, yup, that's right. It brings in reinforcements for Loke in Ragnarök. What do you need me for? ~;p
Still though toenails? if this was anyone but a bunch of awesome vikings I would assume it was a joke
SwissBarbar
03-05-2009, 09:06
Maybe we have to post a better pic of Fenrisulven to show how big he is.
http://kaputtmundi.wdfiles.com/local--files/cuccioli-di-fenris/fenrir.jpg http://www.wehype.com/typo3temp/pics/andreas_ando1_2f5d576b84_a3841e8e74.jpg <-- Chuck
Is that it? Chuck Norris would roundhouse his arse back to the stone age!
Also, Swiss has my instant vote for March, hands down.:applause::applause::applause::applause:
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 15:01
Still though toenails? if this was anyone but a bunch of awesome vikings I would assume it was a joke
Yes, toenails. You'd better believe it! :grin:
I've got some bad news, though: my EB comp is in trouble again. I don't know how long it will take to fix it this time, but hopefully it won't be too long. Perhaps Cicero could act as both while I'm gone from actual play?
Whats wrong with it this time?
it seems to be goign rather slow atm or am i wrong?
everyone
03-05-2009, 16:36
yeah, same for WotB; I suppose everybody else is busy now. I-K didn't conclude WotB's council session until today; TCV's EB computer is busted and navarro is occupied with RL stuff so he couldn't move Blasio throughout the past few turns.
anyway even if I take over as temporary CoF, I can't end the turn until around 20 hours later because I am exhausted now and have yet another long day at school; and I have done 6 "angry sighs" since I started typing the post
I can't do anything...I'm waiting for the next turn to end..and I want Legio III out of my damn city already...what's keeping Potocello?
Everyone, seeing as your the only high office guy online atm, would it be possible to make an IC decree that would force Legio III to leave Epidamnos? So that I can roleplay it? Then I'll put it in the stories thread and stuff. Would it be IC legal?
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-05-2009, 18:49
I haven't the foggiest what's going on w/ the Legio III atm......I'll send him a PM
that would NOT be legal Bean if it violates Potocello's SOT post. I personally, can be moved by COF/COL; but not him or his legion.
No no no, I mean can I (using IC mode) use IC law to make you leave. It would all be a story; I wouldnt actually interact with you.
Hmm, maybe I should meet with you TCM, and we can have an argument. Joint story post?
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-05-2009, 18:51
But by making a law - who would then move the legion to adhere to the law? If potocello isn't there to move him, then the law is moot. Unless, of course, you're talking about declaring him inactive and erasing his avatar - which certainly is not the case.
the Legio III may have units retrained after a battle. Send PM or notify me another way after move is done. Dux and/or Consuls may move my character to keep up with a Dux Campain i am apart of.
Sure, we can do a story (PM's the conversation and then we'll paste it together)
What law? I'm talking about ICness. This has nothing to do with laws...I mean can my character attempt to use ICness to IC move your characters out with your legion. Basically all a story. Nothing would physically change unless you moved the legion yourself
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-05-2009, 19:02
I can't do anything...I'm waiting for the next turn to end..and I want Legio III out of my damn city already...what's keeping Potocello?
Everyone, seeing as your the only high office guy online atm, would it be possible to make an IC decree that would force Legio III to leave Epidamnos? So that I can roleplay it? Then I'll put it in the stories thread and stuff. Would it be IC legal?
(Emphasis mine)
That's what I interpreted to mean "law" and since the laws we have are all In Character, I assumed you meant you would make a decree as Provincial governor, etc (in game law) and force the army to be physically moved, which would have been against Potocello's SOT post.
You can, of course, huff and puff all you want In Character, and we'll come up with some excuse as to why the legion is not moving; but I don't believe that it can be moved at all. I look forward to the argument! :)
I might have to make one with you tonight :laugh4:...unfortunately I dont have time right now
Everyone can you end the turn, TCV's comps down.
Potocello
03-05-2009, 21:00
whoa now excuse me for thinking it okay to stay in a city,it's not like i'm keeping you from your dictatorship. But sorry about this, could someone move it out for me? I'm finding it hard to find time to take the save during the week. Maybe TCM could move them out?
I'll put it in the PM TCM. Sorry Bean.
EDIT: Or if you want to have an argument about it as TCM suggested, i'm all for it.
Haha dont worry I'm not really angry :laugh4:. My character is though
Potocello
03-05-2009, 21:06
=) in that case, expect some resistance... maybe
Why? Go away! :2thumbsup:
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 21:20
Whats wrong with it this time?
I wish I knew. I'm a god of sex and intelligence, not computers. :shame:
What happened was that the screen just suddenly said "monitor going to sleep", and no command could "wake it up", so to say. Trying to restart the computer, it freezes while Windows is loading. If you have any idea what this could mean, or how I can fix it...
Iskander 3.1
03-05-2009, 21:29
Did you try starting up in safe mode?
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 21:51
Yeah, that works. Though as I said, I'm not a computer guy, so I don't know what to do while in there.
Iskander 3.1
03-05-2009, 22:08
Hmmm...try a system restore?
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 22:10
Tried that, didn't work. Any other ideas? :shrug:
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-05-2009, 23:34
Sounds like somebody needs a windows re-install! :2thumbsup:
In that case - SAVE YOUR SAVE GAME FILES TO A DISK!!!!!!!!! (CD NOWADAYS) Then put them back into the proper folders after you re-install windows, every single program you have, and necessary updates
If you're really lucky, and I mean really lucky, you may even have bad sectors on your hard drive!
If that's what has happened, you can try to format it; but more than likely is $$$ time.
The Celtic Viking
03-05-2009, 23:48
If you're really lucky, and I mean really lucky, you may even have bad sectors on your hard drive!
So that's the jackpot, eh? I... must... HAVE IT!
Thanks, TCM. Will try that tomorrow.
SwissBarbar
03-06-2009, 00:29
I wish I knew. I'm a god of sex and intelligence, not computers. :shame:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: this just made my day
navarro951
03-06-2009, 04:18
wow...just got ETW and it is just a masterpiece.
Potocello
03-06-2009, 04:44
wow...just got ETW and it is just a masterpiece.
so i hear, too bad my computer won't run it.
navarro951
03-06-2009, 04:50
Well its funny, my naval battles have to be on all low (not that i care they are epic anyway!) and everything else runs fine on medium. Yet to this day EB still lags when i move across the map....grr.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-06-2009, 05:43
EB is so weird like that. I'm not sure why; but it runs completely differently on every computer - even if they're spec'ed the same!
navarro951
03-06-2009, 06:09
ya i have heard that.
also now that im back in the action I would like to let you guys know that yes I will finally have a chance to update the history. please know that i am reviewing and debating the rank and military structure changes you have all discussed. when i have come to a conclusion i will lay them out at the next CC.:2thumbsup:
everyone
03-06-2009, 06:54
what? TCV's computer is still down and I am home early?
huzzah! I am home early and have no homework for the weekend!
I shall end the turn. and install ETW and play it after that. damned homework over the past few days preventing me from installing ETW.
I was only going to get ETW to stick it next to all my other TW cases...
everyone
03-06-2009, 10:08
I am now very angry because my computer lacks a 2.4 ghz processor and has a 2.2 ghz processor instead. so I can't run ETW on battle mode because it'll freeze randomly and I can't play campaign mode without having CTD's upon moving the map around.
:furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3:
in fact, I have spat so much from swearing that my screen is stained with saliva. I have to wipe it off after I stop swearing.
Thats too bad; however getting a bigger processor and installing it is relatively easy and can be done yourself, so no where near as bad as the problems I've had in the past. Easy to fix, just opo into town and get a bigger processor. (Make sure your comp can take it.)
Btw, Everyone, can I build the next foreign MIC in Epidamnos please. I want to get Illyrian Thureophoroi and heavy peltasts for my bodyguard and auxiliary infantry. It costs 3000 mnai which is why I'm asking, but if I cancel the racetrack we have 5623 mnai.
Also, Pyrrhos is right next to me basically, so I'm going to try and kill him with a small advance guard rather than the whole legion, makes more sense RP-wise.
everyone
03-06-2009, 10:23
you'll need to update your SOT post for that, and since you're provincial governor for 2 in-game years, I doubt that the next level of MIC would be completed within your term.
anyway, don't forget, as Provincial governor, you can "prioritise" buildings
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can Prioritize one building in any build queue in any settlement in his Province(s).
and as of now, you can't have any auxiliary units because Cotta is still missing 1 command point or 2 influence points.
and the racetrack was TCV's idea.
right I just remembered something; since you did not place anything in the build queue of Epidamnos in your SOT; TCV's action as CoF should not be carried out, since it does not say "at Consul of Finance's discretion".
if you're not sure what are the powers of a provincial governor and how to govern your settlements in BtSH; refer to MerlinusCDXX's SOT post in the WotB forum here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=107460
and I think taking on Pyrrhus with the 'advance guard' is a great chance for RPing; you could challenge Pyrrhos to a duel or something like that!
I prioritised the first foreign MIC, which I guess was the only one I can do till the next CC. Shall I just leave it to you then, and forget about the bodyguard units?
EDIT: Haha Pyrrhus just fled without fighting me, so I've got a free close victory. Pursuit!!!
everyone
03-06-2009, 10:37
bodyguard? oh right. I forgot about that! as quaestor you're entitled to 2 bodyguard units; perhaps you should ask navarro about it. you earned the rank while you were in Epiros; so I suppose you could chose from any unit that was there (which I don't know what is there).
oh and if you prioritised anything, be sure to state it in your SOT.
and I'm still angry that I can't play ETW yet.
There were no units availiable there when I first arrived, so I had to build a MIC. Except I dont really want coastal levies as my bodyguard...seems a bit strange.
Anyway, Pyrrhus got away from me. Somehow he managed to get into Ambrakia. My light forces have pursued but they are outnumbered and outclassed if the Epirite army manages to attack me. I have left the Legio II's heavy infantry in command of Caivs Aemilivs; if he can unite our forces we stand a chance of a decisive battle on good ground. I would join them myself, but I don't think I have the ability.
I also moved Cicero's legion for you.
everyone
03-06-2009, 10:56
thanks.
and because you gained the rank of Quaestor from winning the battles in Epiros, I presume that your bodyguard units could be from the mercenaries there. Cotta's rank was attained while he was in Epiros, not Illyria.
Mercs are expensive, but as your in charge of the treasury I'll let you decide. Would I get some units from say, Ambrakia if we took it in the future, even if I wasn't Quaestor/Prov. Gov. anymore?
everyone
03-06-2009, 11:21
I'm not sure about that. though I suppose what you suggested is ok. since navarro is the magistrate (IC) who is in charge of the game management things; I suppose you should ask him about the quaestor thing
I have left the Legio II's heavy infantry in command of Caivs Aemilivs; if he can unite our forces we stand a chance of a decisive battle on good ground. I would join them myself, but I don't think I have the ability.
I also moved Cicero's legion for you.
Gimme your orders general ;)
I've ordered ETW on amazon.uk for only 35€.
If I buy it here in .be it would cost me near 60€
Only drawback is I have to wait for it to get delivered :)
still worth the 25€ tbh
He still needs to answer my last PM :laugh4:
that's what you get for not leaving my in charge! My nephew is rather slow sometimes (haha *poke poke*)
I thought you'd rather attempt to assassinate the king of Epiros :2thumbsup:
SwissBarbar
03-06-2009, 15:36
Gimme your orders general ;)
:inquisitive: You're Qvintvs Aemilivs not Caivs :inquisitive:
SwissBarbar
03-06-2009, 15:40
From this thread. Mini, I don't want to disappoint you, but I think you misunderstood bean (or I misunderstood you...).
Yeah I didnt get that...your my adoptive son, Mini. Your a different branch of Aemilii from Swiss (Avlvs) and Mjolnir (Caivs) anyway. Your certainly neither of their uncles
SwissBarbar
03-06-2009, 15:46
yeah, he's my cousin ^^
no i knew he wasn't talking to me :)
if he would have been talking to me, i'd have known my orders now wouldnt i :)
Does Mjolnir even play this anymore? I havent seen him active for ages
SwissBarbar
03-06-2009, 17:11
Did you PM him? I never saw him again, AFAIK he did not vote at the elections either.
Yes, I posted in here, the Consul reports thread and I PMed him. Havent heard from him in ages, but I know he does log on to the Org occasionaly so at least he should see my PM
The Celtic Viking
03-06-2009, 18:11
Well, I've reinstalled windows on my other comp, and aside from the strange dots that appeared on the screen still (did I forget to mention those? :embarassed:) it worked fine. However, as soon as I installed the drivers for my graphics card, it all went to Cambodia. I'm now on square -1.
I s'pose this means its my graphics card that's screwing with me, right? :shame:
SwissBarbar
03-06-2009, 18:25
That's possible. But then... since you're a sexgod as you say, it should be no problem to screw with a graphic card
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-06-2009, 22:34
TCV, Your monitor just may be bad; and you could have gotten a bad version of drivers. Have you virus/spyware scanned? I'd hate for you to have a hardware problem; but that may be what we're looking at ---> new computer :(
Oh, and Bean, that's a nasty letter you sent, and all of it's lies lies lies! I sent you the PM I sent Mooks and Potocello to get the legion moving; but we're certainly not pillaging the town! In fact, we're fighting a counterinsurgency because YOU and your men are gallavanting around Illyria Hellenike trying to kill Pyrrhus when you should be governing! This is actually, all your fault! :-P
Im interested in the production of a house. Im not saying im making one...exactly....just who is of rank to sponsor a house or is somebody out there that can make a house by themselves?
In short, who is a praetor?
We no longer need Praetors. Quaestors can do it. I'm just waiting for confirmation from Navarro
We no longer need Praetors. Quaestors can do it. I'm just waiting for confirmation from Navarro
O you are a sly one indeed.
What do houses do anyway?
TCV, Your monitor just may be bad; and you could have gotten a bad version of drivers. Have you virus/spyware scanned? I'd hate for you to have a hardware problem; but that may be what we're looking at ---> new computer :(
Oh, and Bean, that's a nasty letter you sent, and all of it's lies lies lies! I sent you the PM I sent Mooks and Potocello to get the legion moving; but we're certainly not pillaging the town! In fact, we're fighting a counterinsurgency because YOU and your men are gallavanting around Illyria Hellenike trying to kill Pyrrhus when you should be governing! This is actually, all your fault! :-P
Wait, legio I is not doing its job?
Say something in the curia, just please dont mention throwing him off a rock.
Legio I is...its the Legio III thats doing nothing and eating all my food
Iskander 3.1
03-06-2009, 23:41
Legio I knows better than to do that!
navarro951
03-07-2009, 00:35
I haven't got a chance, and I apologize, to welcome our newest members Tolg and Iskander. Welcome!
also: i promise the history will get done today.:embarassed:
navarro951
03-07-2009, 03:50
well as i was going through the legion proposals mini made, I also noted that when i wrote the rule for family/house, or "personal legions", i included an income. What i forgot to include is an upkeep and unit price. For personal legions, just so you know as a house creation may be coming soon, unit prices are 25% off and upkeep is 50% off, so to speak :laugh4:.
ex.
Family owns city A and B.
After two years of wartime profit they now have 6000 denarii.
They want Unit A which costs 1000 with an upkeep of 200, and Unit B which costs 750 and an upkeep of 150 for the war effort..
That means that it is 250 off unit A and 187 (I rounded down) off Unit B.
So unit A cost 750 and Unit B cost 563.
The family now has 4687 left.
Now each season they will have to pay upkeep, like for our standard and consular legions.
This means for unit A's upkeep is 100 and unit B's upkeep is 75 per season.
All this will be monitored by me and me only. This means recruiting and financial handling. Its all console done so it doesn't effect the game at all. So this was just to let you know.
And as a fair game-master, no matter what, I will always always recruit the units for your families/houses as well as give them their seasonal pay and what not. I will never say no, even if you may end up in a civil war with my family in the future as I personally will not be affected :laugh4:
That's all i wanted to share my inquiry's with you.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
03-07-2009, 04:04
Sounds good to me Navarro. We know you would never cheat us in this game. You've done a heck of a job making this game and it's been a blast and honor to be able to play it and play with all of you fine people. It's just the I/C bit where we think you're a tyrant! (Well, I don't think you're one anymore since you stepped down) Glad to have you back.
navarro951
03-07-2009, 04:07
haha well thats good to know and I am very grateful of your appreciation. All blasio was trying to do was what Caesar was trying to do. Get things done quickly and simply on his word without discussion, but advice, and then step down. I suppose at least I am glad to not of been stabbed over 60 times in the middle of the Curia :hide:
Who says we haven't been planning that? :skull:
everyone
03-07-2009, 09:54
yes, and now that Blasio is in Rome, he's got an even higher chance of being stabbed by our representatives over little things like the colour of socks he's wearing.
Legio I is...its the Legio III thats doing nothing and eating all my food
If you and everyone didnt make such a stupid ingame script move this whole thing wouldnt have happened. I dont know why navarro even allowed it. Its obvios it was made for the sole benefit of yourself.
everyone
03-07-2009, 12:55
what script move.
and if it's about the event 2, bean's still not profiting from it. and, if the AI is dumb/smart enough to cross the straits of Messena, something secret that bean doesn't know would happen.
anyway, you should learn to keep IC apart from OOC; what's happening to legio III and II or whatever shouldn't effect your opinion of the players who play the characters that control those legions.
We might as well give ourselves up, Everyone. I think Mooks has figured out that we're planning to rewrite all the scripts to create a super-PBM that only we two will be able to play, where everybody hates everyone else and constantly tries to kill each other while you and I rule over everything...:wall:
everyone
03-07-2009, 13:09
yes, in fact, according to the script, Cicero transforms into a Bartixian death ray-wielding UFO which hovers over Rome, commanding all of its troops.
everyone
03-07-2009, 13:55
fine. Cicero shall transform into 10 robot howitzers then.
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