Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Molinaargh]

This session is now over. Demosthenes's second proposal passes out of this messenger's respect for him, while the first one doesn't due to democracy.


@Molinaargh I just wanted to stop by and say that I'll most likely not make a "proposal collection" thing this in-game year, got some timeconsuming RL stuff to deal with atm.
No problem! This one was pretty easy.

[diomede]

I also AGREE with Greenlizards second proposal, that we build and improve the defences at Pergamon. I DISAGREE with building a Klerouchy there and would PROPOSE instead that it be an allied and autonomous province (level IV) - especially given the circumstances of our taking of the city.

I am very heartened by this proposal. On behalf of Sparte I would like to support this motion.

[Molinaargh]

256 BC


Athenian motions:
-Maintain the siege of Dalminion. (Yes)
-Strengthen the Alliance Army, preferably by recruiting from the nearby cities. (Yes)
-Scout and report on the strength of the poleis in the Asian border. (Not yet)
-Build a hellenic klerouchy in Pergamon. (Yes)
-Improve the walls of Pergamon. (Not yet)

Spartan motions:
-Send Polemarchos Akrotatos to crush the rebellion in Makedonia. (Yes)
-Send Damasos and the now "Spartan Reserve Army" to aid the Alliance Army. (No)
-Begin training of the Spartan Expeditionary Force, 8 units strong. (Yes)
-1st Spartan Army now "Army of Sparte", 2nd Spartan Army now "Sparte Reserve Army". (Okay)
-Strengthen the Spartan navy. (Yes)


Dalmatian Riches





Advised (and financed!) by the Athenian Council, Doros recruited more men to the Alliance Army. Since it was dangerous for reinforcements to travel from Hellas to the barbarian lands of Dalmatia, he hired local spearmen and hellenic settlers in the region.

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1687/001zipb.jpg



https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1563/002fby.jpg

These men would prove to be useful, since the pretenders to the Epeirote throne were unwilling to surrender.

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4408/003xir.jpg



https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8924/004gu.jpg



https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2195/005mzp.jpg



https://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3958/006iy.jpg



https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1256/007qlf.jpg



https://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2115/008knm.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/izpHe.jpg

But they were given no choice. Dalmatia was put under the Koinon's control by the might of the sword and the hoplon, and the few barbarians that were left in Dalminion were allowed to stay and continue their lives under the rule of the Koinon.

https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3072/010cpu.jpg

Doros was becoming quite a Strategos, as he had shown in the siege of Dalminion.

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1422/011xqya.jpg



https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/90/012oh.jpg

In his letter to the Athenian Council, he asked advice on how exactly this barbaric village could be a part of the Alliance of Hellenes.

https://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4658/012bj.jpg

Back in the whereabouts of Pella (another barbaric village, hah!), Akrotatos marched against the rebel forces of Makedonia.

https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1999/013eh.jpg



https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/790/014zcq.jpg



https://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3905/015cw.jpg



https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4935/016pg.jpg



https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6112/017tn.jpg

The Polemarchos was becoming an able commander himself.

https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5093/018br.jpg

He also had his third daughter this year, Polydamna.

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1932/019cd.jpg

In Asian news, Nikanor began to make the arrangements for a new government in the polis of Pergamon.

https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2843/020aj.jpg

The scouts found out that the garrison of Ipsos had been immensely reduced, and reported on men riding scythed chariots in the city.

https://img507.imageshack.us/img507/58/021vl.jpg

https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7623/022ee.jpg

The garrison of Ipsos was eventually found. It was just outside our gates. Nikanor expected the Athenian Council to revere him as a great hero, but they shunned his conquest instead. And now a huge Seleukid army had his conquest under siege. Everything was falling apart.

https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5131/023na.jpg

Akrotatos, who had already performed what was asked of him by the Spartan Council, heard of the siege of Pergamon and embarked to aid the Athenians - and the Alliance.

https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9440/024phj.jpg



https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5979/025qu.jpg

But by the time he got to Pergamon, a new year had arrived, and he knew the Spartan Gerousia would send new orders for him and the Army of Sparte. The council could decide to leave Pergamon (and Nikanor) to their own fate, but abandoning Nikanor would bring much tension between Sparte and Athenai.

https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6215/026wj.jpg

All was well in the northern front, except for the huge garrison of Serdike which could make a move at any moment.

https://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5731/027ijm.jpg

In the West, Doros was awaiting orders in Dalminion from the Athenian Council.

https://img513.imageshack.us/img513/114/028rs.jpg

The conquest of Dalmatia had brought many riches to the Koinon's coffers, and while the Athenians spent their share on mercenaries...

https://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3676/029fw.jpg

...the Spartans recruited the backbone of the Sparte Expeditionary Force, which was already under heavy training, as was Agis in the Agoge. It was expected that skirmishers and cavalry would be recruited next.

https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3910/030q.jpg

The Spartan fleet was also strengthened with more (although not better) ships.

https://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7079/031oz.jpg

Map of the Koinon Hellenon and its neighbours:

https://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3369/032gi.jpg

Even though it was against the Athenian Council's will, the conquest of Pergamon by Nikanor increased tension between the hegemonic poleis. The decision of not installing an Agoge in Thermon decreased this tension on Sparte's side.

https://i.imgur.com/VUj5s.jpg




https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The polis session for 255 BC now open. I'd like to remind you that the Koinon Elections are now every 5 years instead of 4, and so elections will take place only by the end of next year.

[Populus Romanus]

I have proposed for the Army of Sparte to help break the Gazillionth Siege of Pergamon. Are you open to accepting it?

Also, you guys could give your armies names, if you wanted to.

[Greenlizard0.]

I am open to accept it, so I will do an aproposal to the counsel

1 Will we accept Spartan help in Pergamon?

And more:

2 Should we improve our economies with this years income (instead of spending money on troops)?
3 Should we install a type 4 goverment in Dalmonion?

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I AGREE to the proposal that we accept Spartan aid in the relief of Pergamon, and thank Populus Romanus. I PROPOSE, given that and the dropping of Spartan plans for an agoge in Thermon that we cease the building of the Klerouchy there and allow, instead, Pergamon to be an autonomous polis within the Koinon (level IV).

Congratulations to both Doros and Akrotates on their fine victories, our Koinon has fine men leading our armies. As for whether we spend our money on improving our economies or on military imrovements.... we have seen already the Seleucid response to our bordering their territories. As well as that, Serdike remains a threat north of Pella. I PROPOSE that we strengthen the garrison at Pergamon, if we manage to hold the city from Pergamon aggression.

[Enyalio]

Eeuhm OOC:

What happened to the second Athenian Army? The guiding text on the chapter dead king made me believe that the force which now seems to be the Spartan reserve army, was Athenian.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I am open to accept it, so I will do an aproposal to the counsel

1 Will we accept Spartan help in Pergamon?

And more:

2 Should we improve our economies with this years income (instead of spending money on troops)?
3 Should we install a type 4 goverment in Dalmonion?

1. AGREE

2. Neutral.

3. AGREE


I AGREE to the proposal that we accept Spartan aid in the relief of Pergamon, and thank Populus Romanus. I PROPOSE, given that and the dropping of Spartan plans for an agoge in Thermon that we cease the building of the Klerouchy there and allow, instead, Pergamon to be an autonomous polis within the Koinon (level IV).

Congratulations to both Doros and Akrotates on their fine victories, our Koinon has fine men leading our armies. As for whether we spend our money on improving our economies or on military imrovements.... we have seen already the Seleucid response to our bordering their territories. As well as that, Serdike remains a threat north of Pella. I PROPOSE that we strengthen the garrison at Pergamon, if we manage to hold the city from Pergamon aggression.

As much as it pains me I must DISAGREE with your proposal to make Pergamon an Allied Free Kingdom. This is not because I wish to expand Athenian range of influence, but rather the range of our democratic ideas. It was unfortunate that demokratia was brought to these people by ways of the sword, but as of now I believe it to be better to go through with the demokratia process of Pergamon. My love for our Athenian ideals is sometimes greater than my will to do what is best for our Koinon. My apologies. I AGREE with your proposal to strenghten the garrision at Pergamon.

I PROPOSE that all future polies conquered in Mikra Asia to be incorperated as Free Allied Kingdoms (IV), so that we may avoid similar situations in the future.

I PROPOSE that we recruit more troops in Athenai and loan them to the Spartiatai, to be used in the North.

I PROPOSE that we expand the economy of the polis Sparte; expanding the trading port, and/or the Agora, (as we hold the office of Hegemon)

I PROPOSE that we build the best possible barracks at Athenai (if we haven't done so already).

I PROPOSE that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

And when the Seleucid threat is dimished:

I PROPOSE that we expand the port of Pergamon, or if not feasible; that we expand the Agora instead.

[Molinaargh]

Eeuhm OOC:

What happened to the second Athenian Army? The guiding text on the chapter dead king made me believe that the force which now seems to be the Spartan reserve army, was Athenian.
Yes, the Athenian Council let those men go with the Spartan Army. They may be recalled.

In other news, some artwork:

https://i.imgur.com/8lFc3.png
The Siege of Pella (261 B.C.) - sketch.

I'll draw an Athenian one next.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Nice artwork. :2thumbsup:

@Molinaargh Are Free Allied Kingdoms (Type IV) governments still under some minimal influence from the polis that conquered them? And would my first, second and third proposal affect the Civil War Meter (assuming they are agreed upon), and if so perhaps one half of a "Civil War Block"?

[Molinaargh]

Nice artwork. :2thumbsup:

@Molinaargh Are Free Allied Kingdoms (Type IV) governments still under some minimal influence from the polis that conquered them? And would my first, second and third proposal affect the Civil War Meter (assuming they are agreed upon), and if so perhaps one half of a "Civil War Block"?
Free Allied Kingdoms (Type IV) will still be influenced by the polis that conquered them, as they will be an ally of said polis. Such government just means it will be an autonomous ally instead of a puppet tyrannos (Type III) or a puppet council (Type II). If you want a conquered polis to stay neutral, propose so.

And yes, the proposals would decrease tension.

[Biowulf]

I Agree with Arthouros' proposals. We need to enhance our economy throughout the Koinon and make sure all our cities are trading with one another. Also, lending troops between the two cities will help ease tensions which can only benefit everyone.
I Agree with Greenlizard0's first and third proposals, but only partially agree with the second. We should try to enhance both economy and army as best we can so that we aren't in as much danger of either attack or bankruptcy.
I also Agree with Demosthenes's proposals. Pergamon has only eve desired to rule herself, and we shall help her do so by keeping the Seleukid lions at bay and only asking for a nominal tribute.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Greenlizard0:

1. Will we accept Spartan help in relieving Pergamon?

2. Should we focus on economic matters this year, (instead of spending money on troops)?

3. Should we install a type 4 goverment in Dalmonion?

1. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes ,Biowulf

2. PARTIALLY AGREE Biowulf ("We should try to enhance both economy and army as best we can so that we aren't in as much danger of either attack or bankruptcy.")

3. AGREE Arthouros, Biowulf


Demosthenes:

1. "I PROPOSE, that Pergamon is to be an autonomous polis within the Koinon (level IV)."

2. "I PROPOSE that we strengthen the garrison at Pergamon, if we manage to hold the city from Pergamon aggression."

1. AGREE Biowulf DISAGREE Arthouros, Greenlizard0

2. AGREE Biowulf, Arthouros, Greenlizard0



Arthouros:

1. "I PROPOSE that all future polies conquered in Mikra Asia to be incorperated as Free Allied Kingdoms (IV), so that we may avoid similar situations in the future."

2. "I PROPOSE that we recruit more troops in Athenai and loan them to the Spartiatai, to be used in the North."

3. "I PROPOSE that we expand the economy of the polis Sparte; expanding the trading port, and/or the Agora, (as we hold the office of Hegemon)."

4. "I PROPOSE that we build the best possible barracks at Athenai (if we haven't done so already)."

5. "I PROPOSE that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia."

And when the Seleucid threat is dimished:

6. "I PROPOSE that we expand the port of Pergamon, or if not feasible; that we expand the Agora instead."


1. AGREE Biowulf

2. AGREE Biowulf

3. AGREE Biowulf, PARTIALLY AGREE Greenlizard0 ("I think we should ask Sparte first what they want.")

4. AGREE Biowulf, Greenlizard0

5. AGREE Biowulf, Greenlizard0

6. AGREE Biowulf

[Greenlizard0.]

A bit late perhaps, yet I wanted to agree on some things:

Demosthenes:

I agree with the socond one and disagree with the first.

Arthouros:

3. Particially agreed; I think we should ask Sparte first what they want.

4. Agreed

5. Also someting good to do

Being neutral with the rest

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

"You bring up an important point councillor, I will venture to Sparte and ask of their opinion on the matter"

Also I Invite Greenlizard0 to the Hellas Party, as your ideals and the ideals of the Hellas Party seems to be alike.

[Greenlizard0.]

I would like to join the Hellas Party. Yet first I would like to see if my ideas are in line with the party's politics. Here some of my ideals (after having a quick look at page 8):

1: We Hellenic cities must act as one to the outside world, to protect our independency
2: All poleis in the Koinon should be allowed to keep their own culture, traditions and politics. To change important things on goverment and such matters must be on the request or acception of other areas only (or exclusively in their intrest)
3: We must prevent any wars within the Koinon

Edit:

When we want to do anything that have directly to do with the pois of Sparte, we should discuss it with them.

[jirisys]

I would like to join the Hellas Party. Yet first I would like to see if my ideas are in line with the party's politics. Here some of my ideals (after having a quick look at page 8):

1: We Hellenic cities must act as one to the outside world, to protect our independency
2: All poleis in the Koinon should be allowed to keep their own culture, traditions and politics. To change important things on goverment and such matters must be on the request or acception of other areas only (or exclusively in their intrest)
3: We must prevent any wars within the Koinon

In the case of Sparte, I think we should ask anything that directly confronts them.

Yes... All points are agreed upon, you are in (since I'm the founder I can allow people to join even when I'm not the prytaneos right?).

However would you care to elaborate the last sentence, about the case with Sparte? I did not understand it too much.

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

That's our ideals in a nutshell.

[Molinaargh]

It's late now so I must close this polis session. I will be back next year with the official news from around the Alliance.

Please excuse this humble emissary of the Koinon...

[Molinaargh]

255 BC


Athenian motions:
-Accept Spartan help in Pergamon.
-The city of Dalminion (and with it the region of Dalmacia) will maintain its autonomy but remain as an ally of the Koinon (Type IV government). (Yes)
-Garrison of Pergamon to be strengthened. (Yes)
-Recruit more troops in Athenai and loan them to the Spartiatai, to be used in the North. (Troops still at Athenai)
-Expand the economy of the polis Sparte; expanding the trading port, and/or the Agora. (Sparte was already working on new barracks)
-Build the best possible barracks at Athenai. (Yes)
-Build better/stone walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia, also expand the port of Pergamon, or, if not feasible, expand the Agora instead. (Government was being established instead)

Spartan motions:
-Unload the Army of Sparte from the Fleet onto the shores of Mikra Asia to relieve Pergamon from the Seleukid siege. (Yes)
-Do not attack Serdike yet. We are not strong enough to take that fortress yet. (Yes)
-Add more Iphikratous Hoplitai to the Sparte Expeditionary force. (They are not available in Sparte, only in Athenai and Ambrakia)
-Army of Sparte to return to Hellas/Sparte after the battle of Pergamon. (No)



Make Love, Not War



The men were ready for war. Polemarchos Akrotatos had brought the Army of Sparte. Nikanor had the Athenian Army and the garrison of Pergamon. The spartans even hired heavy cavalrymen to help in the upcoming battle.

https://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8413/43674808.jpg

But the battle never came. In fact, it went. The Seleukids lifted the siege of Pergamon, perhaps fearing the Koinon's united force. Their army was last seen marching east...

https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2361/95227699.jpg

https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9370/98815851.jpg

...And apparently said army was useful in ending the Seleukid-Potelamioi war. Whatever happened in the east, we had lost the help of the Ptolemaioi against the Seleukids.

https://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9150/27808046.jpg

But we gained a new trade partner: Pontos.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3382/53021765.jpg

Walls were supposed to be constructed in Pergamon, but since the new government was still being established, they were built in Pella instead.

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/600/86499774.jpg

Doros, Publios and Agis all got married this year.

https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6791/40526147.jpg


https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4980/43886652.jpg


https://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1281/64196101.jpg

Agis got married soon after completing the Agoge, and then was chosen to serve in the Krypteia.

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8106/82479631.jpg


https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5962/87875490.jpg

Doros left Dalmatia to their own business, and marched back to Pella where he believed the Alliance Army could be more useful, and from where he could more easily hand over the Alliance Army to the next Strategos. Elections were coming up.

https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5250/65683286.jpg


https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4582/85658709.jpg

https://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4490/83997060.jpg

Akrotatos had orders to return from Asia, but Nikanor asked him to stay since the Seleukid army could always come back from the east. Akrotatos accepted to stay and defend Pergamon as long as the Army of Sparte was retrained in the polis, which was the purpose of his return to Hellas. The lighter units were replaced with local men of Pergamon, but the heavier hoplites would still have to be retrained in Sparte.

https://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2715/61461388.jpg

Both hegemonic poleis were building up their armies. The Spartan Expeditionary Force was now ready, and the garrison of Pergamon was vast.

https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8564/74797026.jpg

In Athenai the military recruitment complex also underwent improvements. Soon Athenai would be able to equip their men even better.

https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6089/20162169.jpg

This is the current situation of the Koinon's north, where Serdike remains extremely heavily defended, perhaps one of the hardest cities to conquer in the world.

https://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4766/34669467.jpg

And this of the Koinon's east, where the Seleukids left their poleis poorly defended:

https://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1421/52075759.jpg


https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Koinon Elections are coming up!

[Molinaargh]

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9227/electionsa.jpg

State of the Alliance:


https://i.imgur.com/0fnQU.jpg


Offices:

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6361/officesonlyb260.jpg


Candidates:


https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png Spartans:

https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6135/55035266.jpg


https://img573.imageshack.us/img573/4544/26211283.jpg


https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9046/72012163.jpg


https://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3763/12555605.jpg



https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png Athenians:

https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4400/45195918.jpg


https://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3299/35573603.jpg


https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3333/76710738.jpg


https://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3571/99696918.jpg



Nominate a candidate from your polis to the position of Strategos and another to the office of Hegemon. Doros may not run for Strategos for the Athenians this year since he already won for Strategos last elections.

[jirisys]

I NOMINATE Doros Aithalidos for Hegemon (OOC: Most management) and Poublios Karnasios as Strategos (OOC the best we got, most Influence).

~Jirisys ()

[Biowulf]

Sounds good to me, let them be our candidates!

[Greenlizard0.]

I am not sure of Poublios. Wasn't Poublios a peacemonger? That could turn out disastorous. Doros seems a good candidate. That's the reason I disagree with Poublios (for this moment) and agree with Doros.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I AGREE with the nomination of Doros as Hegemon, and with Poublios for Strategos.

[Biowulf]

I am not sure of Poublios. Wasn't Poublios a peacemonger? That could turn out disastorous. Doros seems a good candidate. That's the reason I disagree with Poublios (for this moment) and agree with Doros.
Is there anyone else you would like to put forward as Strategos though?
And Poublious makes sense since the office of Strategos runs off of influence and command. Poublious has the most of either one out of the available candidates. Also, it's not that he's a peacemonger, but that he's a bad commander. But if he commands many battles he will gain confidence and experience, and will learn the ins and outs of battle.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

The Spartiatai seems to be nominating Agis to the office of Strategos. Agis have only one command star and no influence and our candidate Poublios have 7 as his influence stat; Meaning that we have 7/8 (or 87.5%) chance that we get the Strategos office this time as well.

For the office of Hegemon they have nominated Akrotatos, who has 5 influence and 10 Management. While our candidate Doros have 6 as his management stat; which means that our Hegemon-chances are 6/21 (or ≈ 29%).

~Arthur, king of the Britons (Yeah, I had nothing better to do with my time)

[jirisys]

The Spartiatai seems to be nominating Agis to the office of Strategos. Agis have only one command star and no influence and our candidate Poublios have 7 as his influence stat; Meaning that we have 7/8 (or 87.5%) chance that we get the Strategos office this time as well.

For the office of Hegemon they have nominated Akrotatos, who has 5 influence and 10 Management. While our candidate Doros have 6 as his management stat; which means that our Hegemon-chances are 6/21 (or ≈ 29%).

~Arthur, king of the Britons (Yeah, I had nothing better to do with my time)

Actually, Doros has 11/27 chance (he has 5 command and 6 management) or 0.407407407 ad infinitum chances of winning

~Jirisys (Crud!)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Command stars doesn't affect Hegemon election success rate. :P


Strategos Autokrator

The Strategos Autokrator is in charge of the main army of the Alliance. In times of war, this is the most important position in our league of poleis.
The Strategos Autokrator:
-Will have his chances to be elected based on https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1478/statinfluence.png+ https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1146/commandp.png.
-May command a full army (20 units).
-Gains full command of the Alliance Fleet.
-When elected, will be moved instantly to the army location. The former Strategos will be moved back to his city.
-May not be re-elected or attempt re-election. This leadership rotation preserves the alliance of the cities, so that the army is not a personal one.
-May be elected once again after 4 years (Example: Areus is elected Strategos in 260BC, then cannot be re-elected in 256BC, but may attempt election again in 252BC)
-Should the Strategos die, the current Polemarchos will become Strategos.


Hegemon:

The Hegemon will prioritize spending the Alliance's treasure in his own city's interests, with buildings and recruitment. The office of Hegemon:
-Will have his chances to be elected based onhttps://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1478/statinfluence.png + https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5130/statmanagement.png.
-Will make the Hegemon's city the political center of the Alliance (Capital).
-Is likely to get more buildings done for his city.
-Is likely to get more units recruited for his city.
-Is likely to get whatever his city demands more efficiently and quickly.

[jirisys]

Command stars doesn't affect Hegemon election success rate. :P

Bloody Hell :brood:

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

https://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1421/52075759.jpg

Looks like Pontos may have seized Byzantion (from the looks of the Makedonia - Byzantion border)...

@Molinaargh - Btw have I got this right: That if we with our Athenian army takes a polis and turns it into a Free Allied Kingdom, we would get the same amount of influence as we have over Rhodes? Sorry if I'm asking too many government related questions... :sweatdrop:

[Molinaargh]

@Molinaargh - Btw have I got this right: That if we with our Athenian army takes a polis and turns it into a Free Allied Kingdom, we would get the same amount of influence as we have over Rhodes? Sorry if I'm asking too many government related questions... :sweatdrop:
Yes, if not more influence. Rhodes was never conquered militarily and so should be the one under less influence.

Also, are you going to propose that law of dividing the world? This session would be the right time for it.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Yes, I will do that (along with some clarifications).

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I PROPOSE this Law:

The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte.

It goes as following:

Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the expansion Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shalll not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

[Lazy O]

I believe this has been hanging for quite some time. I shall post this in the Spartan forum.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Much obliged. :bow:

[Biowulf]

OOC: The biggest issue I see with it (that may not be an issue at all) is how the alliance army will be used. If Sparte conquers all the way to Massilia and Athenai makes it all the way to Antiochea, how will the Strategos reach it and use it effectively within the 4 years? It would take nearly a year for the Strategos to command the AA if the AA is all the way at either spectrum. How would you propose to work this out?

IC: I think this is a splendid idea! This way neither polis will feel inclined to be offended if a city is taken with the polis army and the government of choice is put into place.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

OOC: Yeah I know what you mean, though this will probably be an issue with or without this new law. Maybe Molinaargh could use the "character_reset" console command when we get to that point of expansion.

[Paltmull]

I PROPOSE this Law:

The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte.

It goes as following:

Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the expansion Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shalll not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

I wholeheartedly AGREE. If this is accepted in both councils, then expansion following this agreement will of course not affect the civil war meter, right?

[Molinaargh]

I wholeheartedly AGREE. If this is accepted in both councils, then expansion following this agreement will of course not affect the civil war meter, right?
Wrong. Adding cities to either side's influence will still increase tension.

In the sense that if Sparte becomes more powerful in the West, naturally Athenai will be concerned about the rising power of the rival polis.

[Paltmull]

So it's basically impossible to conquer cities without ending up in a civil war?

[Molinaargh]

So it's basically impossible to conquer cities without ending up in a civil war?
You can propose that the city remains neutral after conquest, or you can make up for it with conciliatory actions that would decrease tension between the poleis.

[Molinaargh]

https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9021/koinonsymbol.png
Koinon Elections of Ambrakia - 255 BC


This time the elections took place in Ambrakia, a recently conquered capital of our enemies. The choice was clearly an insult to the epeirote pretenders of the throne who were still attempting to restore the Epeirote Basileion from the north. Many hellenes wished the elections to take place in Pella, but the allies of Athenai objected, fearing the Spartans could use the fact that the Makedon capital was conquered by the Spartan forces alone - and not by the Alliance - to turn the elections to their favor. Besides, Pella was under threat and the wise men of the Koinon couldn't afford to risk their lives so close to the front.

For the position of Strategos, the Athenians presented Poublios, an influent man who had made many friends during his time in Athenai. For Hegemon the candidate was Doros, the son of Chremonides, known to all but disliked by most despite proving himself as a great commander and administrator.

The Spartans presented Agis, the young prince who had just completed his Agoge training, and Akrotatos, the great King of Sparta.

In the end, the following results were announced:


https://i.imgur.com/D3HMp.jpg
Agis Eurypontidos Lakedaimonios, of Sparte, is now Strategos of the Koinon.
Akrotatos Agiados Lakedaimonios, of Sparte, is now Hegemon.
Poublios Karnasios, of Athenai, is the new Polemarchos.


Everyone was shocked. Agis, who had done well in his Agoge training, defeated the popularity of Poublios with his promising leadership skills. Agis was now the youngest Strategos of the Koinon at the age of 18. But there was a problem: he would have to wait until he was dismissed from his Krypteia service before leading the Alliance Army.

Akrotatos had already proved his competence as Hegemon in two occasions and would now have 5 more years in this position.

It seems the election might as well have been in Pella. The Spartans had snatched the two most important offices of the Koinon.

Numbers for this election:

STRATEGOS:

athens: Poublios (7) (2-7)
sparta: Agis (1) (1)

total: 8

random: 1

Agis wins!



HEGEMON:

athens: Doros (6) (1-6)
sparta: Akrotatos (15) (7-21)

total: 21

random: 15

Akrotatos wins!



POLEMARCHOS: Poublios


In this Koinon session there were not only the elections, but a law proposal. Law proposals are expected in the Koinon Politeia, but so far no laws had been proposed. Arthouros of Athenai, known due this proposal as Arthouros the Divider, proposed the following law:


I PROPOSE this Law:

The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte.

It goes as following:

Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the expansion Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shalll not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Voting has already been under way for a while, but there is still time to either agree or disagree with said proposal. The result should be announced tomorrow.


https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenian Council must now decide what actions will be taken in the next year.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Oh fiddlesticks!

[diomede]

OOC:
I would roleplay, but it's 2am so whatever. Plus the SNP has actually become more moderate recently. Anyway, I would like to bring my post on .net to the attention of those of us that only visit .org.



Ok, a quick summary of my thoughts.

1. I: We should march no further north until our flanks are secure. This means we can capture Serdike and return it to their tribal inhabitants, for a cost (level IV gov). It also means we should not advance further into Illyria, for now.
2. II: I am starting to see the logic in both poleis' desire to annex Bizantium. Hey Moilina: For roleplay purposes would it be possible to bribe this city? Even if you have to do add_money and then subtract the extra.

II, part II: Ehm, where was I? Oh yes. I believe that after the conquest liberation of Serdike, we should march the Alliance army east and install a local tyrant sympathetic to the Koinon. This will secure our flank and act as a local base of operations for protecting Pergamon. This will of course be a neutral action.

3. III:Then, and only then, should we consider invading Syracuse. In fact I would suggest putting it off entirely until we control the whole of the Adriatic coast. Why? Simple. One day, the romans will want it, they'll want us and our land. Would it be better to fight the war there, or in Greece? At present the answer would be Greece, but if we get there a good 20 years before them then we shall have the infrastructure in place to make it a more easily defendable position. Syracuse is already easily defended and consequently should wait.

EDIT

How remiss of me. If I'm going to write up my thoughts I suppose I should form some kind of proposals out of them.

I PROPOSE that we capture Serdike with the Alliance army and army of Sparte, but that it shall remain a neutral poleis, "liberated" from Epeirotes and returned to native rule.
I PROPOSE that after that the Alliance army marches on Bizantion.
I PROPOSE that due to the nature of our desired expansion - Athenians into Anatolia and us into Sicily, that we follow a Thalassocratic policy. This means that:

* Ports (both merchentile and military) should be constructed where ever possible;
* that the navy should be expanded even further, but only after our shipyards are improved.
* Sparta should of course continue with its barracks improvements. Sparta can rely on allies for naval power for the time being.

This, the meat of the matter over at .net, is what I'd like to see for the next two years at least. The Pargamon fiasco has overextended us and brought much unwanted instability to the region, so I feel now is the time to bring Bizantion on side, be it through bribery or show of force. This will make it easier on yourselves to defend it, and in the future expand. It'll also mean Spartan armies won't have to interfere in your own affairs as much.

As you can see I proposed heavy investment in ports and harbours. I would like to PROPOSE them all here too, since Athenians have done so at .net.

[jirisys]

YOU GOT IT WRONG!
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!

Poublios IS the strategos I CAN PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!


Max number = Influence (Athenian) + Command (Athenian) + Inf (Spartan) + Com (Spartan).

Athenian win range = Inf (Ath) + Com (Ath)
Spartan win range = Inf (Ath) + Com (Ath) + Inf (Spa) + Com (Spa).



Agis must have had the range of 8-9 because Inf (Ath)=7 + Inf (Spa)=1 + Man (Spa) =1. Ergo 7+1= 8+1= 9

BUT YOU DID THE OPPOSITE!!!


STRATEGOS:

athens: Poublios (7) (2-7)
sparta: Agis (1) (1)

total: 8

random: 1

Agis wins!



Therefore since the number was one, Poublios MUST BE THE STRATEGOS!!! :shocked:

~Jirisys (Very OOC :laugh4:)

[diomede]

Ok, that aside, my proposals remain unchanged. They are for the benefit of the Koinon, not either poleis.

[jirisys]

I still don't know why in the hell did we have to conquer pergamon... :brood:

~Jirisys (Now we have an undefendable position in Asia, nice going :brood:)

[diomede]

Hence my above proposed course of action for the next two years. :P

(one year to take Serdike, one to march on Bizantium.)

[Molinaargh]

YOU GOT IT WRONG!
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!
Therefore since the number was one, Poublios MUST BE THE STRATEGOS!!! :shocked:

~Jirisys (Very OOC :laugh4:)
I'm not sure if this is a joke, but there's nothing wrong. +Man you say? Management isn't considered in Strategos elections.

The candidates's numbers I assign before sorting the random number. Since Agis had only 1 I assigned him the number 1 and assigned the other numbers for Poublios. Then I sorted the random number and it was 1, meaning Agis won.

One thing I noticed is that I wrote Poublios's range was 2-7, when it should've been 2-8, but that didn't impact anything, it was just a typo in one place. I did random from the correct min 1 to correct max 8, and if 8 had been the random number then I'd have realized I wrote the incorrect range (2-7 instead of 2-8) and would've corrected it, and Poublios would've won. But the random number was 1, which was the only number I (correctly) assigned for Agis.

[jirisys]

I'm not sure if this is a joke, but there's nothing wrong. +Man you say? Management isn't considered in Strategos elections. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the calculations.

Kind of a joke.

But that doesn't matter. The athenians take the first spots, so his range should have been 1-7 and the spartan would have been 8

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

Kind of a joke.

But that doesn't matter. The athenians take the first spots, so his range should have been 1-7 and the spartan would have been 8

~Jirisys ()
The Athenians DO NOT take the first spots. I assign the spots however I want them before I sort the random number.

[jirisys]

Athenian win range = Inf (Ath) + Com (Ath)
Spartan win range = Inf (Ath) + Com (Ath) + Inf (Spa) + Com (Spa).

You beg to differ.

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

You beg to differ.

~Jirisys ()
Will you stop this pointless argument? There was nothing wrong with the elections. Last elections I assigned the first numbers for Hegemon for the spartans. I assign them however I feel like assigning them, because it doesn't make a difference in the end, since I assign them before sorting the random number.

Here, check it out:


HEGEMON:

-Damasos (3)
-Eugenios (3)

Max number = 6

1,2,3 = Damasos
4,5,6 = Eugenios

Random number = 6

Eugenios wins!

[jirisys]

I like to nit-picking on everyone's petty faults.

~Jirisys (You will just have to live with it :laugh4:)

[Molinaargh]

I like to nit-picking on everyone's petty faults.

~Jirisys (You will just have to live with it :laugh4:)
It wasn't a fault.

And I have to say I do not have to live with it. Please behave properly.

[jirisys]

It wasn't a fault.

Lack of consistency is in my book.

~Jirisys (Don't worry, I'll stop bickering right now :laugh4:)

[Molinaargh]

Lack of consistency is in my book.

~Jirisys (Don't worry, I'll stop bickering right now :laugh4:)
Nowhere, I say nowhere in the rules it states that Athens gets the first spots.

You are the one at fault here. The range thing is completely wrong, because the range would mean Sparta gets Sparta's chances and then Athenian chances too. You want that? Yeah, guess what, that part of the rules doesn't make sense, and that part, which is the one you quoted to prove your point that "Athens gets first spots", does not even state that Athens gets the first spots. An example does, but the example also shows me assigning the numbers to either Sparta and Athens according to how I want, and I've been assigning them this way since the beginning.

You didn't complain when Athens won, huh?

I'd just like to state that the elections results were correct and that you were wrong in saying the election results were wrong. This whole dialogue might seem like an overreaction, but I would've been fine if jirisys said to me "hey, I think you might've made a mistake in the elections and Poublios should've won, can you check that?", to which I would have replied "no mistake there, because...", and to which he should have replied "alright then, thanks!". Instead of that, he started by saying "YOU GOT IT WRONG! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!" (original caps) and when I said there was nothing wrong and explained he proceeded to argue with me and even point out my "fault", which didn't exist in the first place. Again, please behave properly, there's no reason to yell at me and insult me, even if I do something wrong.

[jirisys]

Nowhere, I say nowhere in the rules it states that Athens gets the first spots.

You are the one at fault here. The range thing is completely wrong, because the range would mean Sparta gets Sparta's chances and then Athenian chances too. You want that? Yeah, guess what, that part of the rules doesn't make sense, and that part, which is the one you quoted to prove your point that "Athens gets first spots", does not even state that Athens gets the first spots. An example does, but the example also shows me assigning the numbers to either Sparta and Athens according to how I want, and I've been assigning them this way since the beginning.

You didn't complain when Athens won, huh?

That's cause I didn't notice :grin:

~Jirisys (I'll shut up now)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

OOC:
I would roleplay, but it's 2am so whatever. Plus the SNP has actually become more moderate recently. Anyway, I would like to bring my post on .net to the attention of those of us that only visit .org.




This, the meat of the matter over at .net, is what I'd like to see for the next two years at least. The Pargamon fiasco has overextended us and brought much unwanted instability to the region, so I feel now is the time to bring Bizantion on side, be it through bribery or show of force. This will make it easier on yourselves to defend it, and in the future expand. It'll also mean Spartan armies won't have to interfere in your own affairs as much.

As you can see I proposed heavy investment in ports and harbours. I would like to PROPOSE them all here too, since Athenians have done so at .net.

Ok, a quick summary of my thoughts.

1. I: We should march no further north until our flanks are secure. This means we can capture Serdike and return it to their tribal inhabitants, for a cost (level IV gov). It also means we should not advance further into Illyria, for now.
2. II: I am starting to see the logic in both poleis' desire to annex Bizantium. Hey Moilina: For roleplay purposes would it be possible to bribe this city? Even if you have to do add_money and then subtract the extra.

II, part II: Ehm, where was I? Oh yes. I believe that after the conquest liberation of Serdike, we should march the Alliance army east and install a local tyrant sympathetic to the Koinon. This will secure our flank and act as a local base of operations for protecting Pergamon. This will of course be a neutral action.

3. III:Then, and only then, should we consider invading Syracuse. In fact I would suggest putting it off entirely until we control the whole of the Adriatic coast. Why? Simple. One day, the romans will want it, they'll want us and our land. Would it be better to fight the war there, or in Greece? At present the answer would be Greece, but if we get there a good 20 years before them then we shall have the infrastructure in place to make it a more easily defendable position. Syracuse is already easily defended and consequently should wait.

EDIT

How remiss of me. If I'm going to write up my thoughts I suppose I should form some kind of proposals out of them.

I Poublios Karnasios that we capture Serdike with the Alliance army and army of Sparte, but that it shall remain a neutral poleis, "liberated" from Epeirotes and returned to native rule.
I PROPOSE that after that the Alliance army marches on Bizantion.
I PROPOSE that due to the nature of our desired expansion - Athenians into Anatolia and us into Sicily, that we follow a Thalassocratic policy. This means that:

* Ports (both merchentile and military) should be constructed where ever possible;
* that the navy should be expanded even further, but only after our shipyards are improved.
* Sparta should of course continue with its barracks improvements. Sparta can rely on allies for naval power for the time being.

Seems reasonable, I AGREE, even though our Athenian agreements or disagreements do not affect the outcome of these proposals. As such I'll most likely not include these in the "proposal collection" thingy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance Army with troops recruited in Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we build better barracks at Kydonia and Chalkis, which would allow us to raise armies faster.

I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Port of Rhodes.

I PROPOSE that Polemarchos Poublios Karnasios is reassigned to Mikra Asia and replace Nikanor as the head commander there. This because Nikanor has proven unreliable to obey the Athenai assembly's wishes.

I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Athenai Army in Mikra Asia with professional troops.

I PROPOSE that for now we take a defensive stance in Mikra Asia.

I PROPOSE Nikanor to return to Athenai and resumes his studies.

I PROPOSE that Doros is made Governor of Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we send a spy to Byzantion to update us on the situation there.

I PROPOSE that when the government of Pergamon has been properly established that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I agree with all of Arthouros' proposals (OOC, a very quick response as I have a son who wishes for me to play football with him right now....)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Arthouros:

1. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance Army with troops recruited in Athenai.

2. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks at Kydonia and Chalkis, which would allow us to raise armies faster.

3. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Port of Rhodes.

4. I PROPOSE that Polemarchos Poublios Karnasios is reassigned to Mikra Asia and replace Nikanor as the head commander there. This because Nikanor has proven unreliable to obey the Athenai assembly's wishes.

5. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Athenai Army in Mikra Asia with professional troops.

6. I PROPOSE that for now we take a defensive stance in Mikra Asia.

7. I PROPOSE Nikanor to return to Athenai and resumes his studies.

8. I PROPOSE that Doros is made Governor of Athenai.

9. I PROPOSE that we send a spy to Byzantion to update us on the situation there.

10. I PROPOSE that when the government of Pergamon has been properly established that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

1. AGREE Demosthenes

2. AGREE Demosthenes

3. AGREE Demosthenes

4. AGREE Demosthenes

5. AGREE Demosthenes

6. AGREE Demosthenes

7. AGREE Demosthenes

8. AGREE Demosthenes

9. AGREE Demosthenes

10. AGREE Demosthenes

[Biowulf]

I AGREE with all of Arthouros' proposals.
I also Propose that we disband our levy troops of the Athenian armies in favor of the more professional troops (i.e. Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai). They will do better against the more professional troops of the Arche Seleukia and Pontos.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I AGREE with your proposal Biowulf.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Arthouros:

1. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance Army with troops recruited in Athenai.

2. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks at Kydonia and Chalkis, which would allow us to raise armies faster.

3. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Port of Rhodes.

4. I PROPOSE that Polemarchos Poublios Karnasios is reassigned to Mikra Asia and replace Nikanor as the head commander there. This because Nikanor has proven unreliable to obey the Athenai assembly's wishes.

5. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Athenai Army in Mikra Asia with professional troops.

6. I PROPOSE that for now we take a defensive stance in Mikra Asia.

7. I PROPOSE Nikanor to return to Athenai and resumes his studies.

8. I PROPOSE that Doros is made Governor of Athenai.

9. I PROPOSE that we send a spy to Byzantion to update us on the situation there.

10. I PROPOSE that when the government of Pergamon has been properly established that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

1. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

2. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

3. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

4. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

5. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

6. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

7. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

8. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

9. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf

10. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf


Biowulf:

1. We should disband our levy troops in the Athenian Armies. We should recruit professional troops like Epilektoi Hoplitai and Thorakitai to take their place.

1. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes


Diomede:

1. I PROPOSE that Ports (both merchentile and military) should be constructed where ever possible;

2. I PROPOSE that the navy should be expanded even further, but only after our shipyards are improved.

1. Result: Pending

2. Result: Pending

[diomede]

Seems reasonable, I AGREE, even though our Athenian agreements or disagreements do not affect the outcome of these proposals. As such I'll most likely not include these in the "proposal collection" thingy.
Feel free to propose much the same yourself, so that it may be included. :P

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I AGREE with all of Arthouros' proposals.
I also Propose that we disband our levy troops of the Athenian armies in favor of the more professional troops (i.e. Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai). They will do better against the more professional troops of the Arche Seleukia and Pontos.

I AGREE with this proposal. We face a series of hard wars, I feel.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Sorry, I only saw the "Alliance Army march against Serdike and then look into annexing Byzantion" proposal. Since it is the Spartiatai who controls the Alliance Army, this proposal only meant that you informed us of the next steps of action for the Alliance Army, which is appreciated, nonetheless.

So the proposals you've made that will count/work as Proposals here are these:


* Ports (both merchentile and military) should be constructed where ever possible;
* that the navy should be expanded even further, but only after our shipyards are improved.

I shall add them with due haste. :bow:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Arthouros:

1. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance Army with troops recruited in Athenai.

2. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks at Kydonia and Chalkis, which would allow us to raise armies faster.

3. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Port of Rhodes.

4. I PROPOSE that Polemarchos Poublios Karnasios is reassigned to Mikra Asia and replace Nikanor as the head commander there. This because Nikanor has proven unreliable to obey the Athenai assembly's wishes.

5. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Athenai Army in Mikra Asia with professional troops.

6. I PROPOSE that for now we take a defensive stance in Mikra Asia.

7. I PROPOSE Nikanor to return to Athenai and resumes his studies.

8. I PROPOSE that Doros is made Governor of Athenai.

9. I PROPOSE that we send a spy to Byzantion to update us on the situation there.

10. I PROPOSE that when the government of Pergamon has been properly established that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

1. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

2. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

3. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

4. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

5. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

6. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

7. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

8. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

9. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl

10. AGREE Demosthenes, Biowulf, Rahl


Biowulf:

1. We should disband our levy troops in the Athenian Armies. We should recruit professional troops like Epilektoi Hoplitai and Thorakitai to take their place.

1. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes, Rahl


Diomede:

1. I PROPOSE that Ports (both merchentile and military) should be constructed where ever possible;

2. I PROPOSE that the navy should be expanded even further, but only after our shipyards are improved.

1. Result: Pending

2. Result: Pending


Rahl:

1. I PROPOSE that we help the people of Dalmatia to appoint a new ruler of their own (Vollorix) who will manage the great potential wealth of the silver and gold mines and the trade of the region and who can protect it from the attacks of the other barbarians.

1. AGREE Arthouros

[Rahl]

As Rahl came back from his journeys to the east where he had established new trade arrangements he recognised the newest changes in Athenai and ordered his slave to find his first informant. After this man had been brought to him Rahl felt again well informed enough to go to the boule again.
There he quickly made the decession to AGREE on all of Arthouros and Biowolfs proposals and made one of his own:
"I PROPOSE that we help the people of Dalmatia to appoint a new ruler of their own (Vollorix) who will manage the great potential wealth of the silver and gold mines and the trade of the region and who can protect it from the attacks of the other barbarians.
They must not forget that we freed them from the Epeirotes and so we should help them, but also take some of the wealth that our technology and culture will bring there for us, to make up for the effords to defend them in future."

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I AGREE.

[Molinaargh]

This session is now over. Thanks to all who participated!

[Molinaargh]

254 BC


Athenian motions:
-Reinforce the Alliance Army with troops recruited in Athenai. (Yes)
-Build better barracks at Kydonia and Chalkis, which would allow us to raise armies faster. (Yes)
-Expand the Military Port of Rhodes. (Yes)
-Polemarchos Poublios Karnasios is reassigned to Mikra Asia and replace Nikanor as the head commander there. This because Nikanor has proven unreliable to obey the Athenai assembly's wishes. (Yes)
-Reinforce the Athenai Army in Mikra Asia with professional troops. (Yes)
-Take a defensive stance in Mikra Asia. (Yes)
-Nikanor to return to Athenai and resumes his studies. (Yes)
-Doros is made Governor of Athenai. (Yes)
-Send a spy to Byzantion to update us on the situation there. (Yes)
-when the government of Pergamon has been properly established that we build stone walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

-Disband our levy troops in the Athenian Armies. Recruit professional troops like Epilektoi Hoplitai and Thorakitai to take their place. (Under recruitment in Athenai)
-Help the people of Dalmatia to appoint a new ruler of their own (Vollorix) who will manage the great potential wealth of the silver and gold mines and the trade of the region and who can protect it from the attacks of the other barbarians. (Not yet, doesn't it require the last level of local barracks to recruit a client ruler? Should I cheat to get those?)

Spartan motions:
-Build a new barracks at Sparte. (Not enough mnai, but the previous barracks improvement finished)
-Capture Serdike with the Alliance army and army of Sparte, but that it shall remain a neutral poleis, "liberated" from Epeirotes and returned to native rule. (Serdike under siege)
-After that the Alliance army marches on Bizantion. (Not yet)

The following law has passed: "The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte". It has been included in the Koinon Politeia.



The Battle of Serdike



254 BC would be remembered for the Battle of Serdike, but that was not the only event of this year.

Doros passed command of the Koinon Stratia (Alliance Army) to the new Strategos, Agis, and returned to Athenai as the Eponymous Archon (governor) of the polis, as appointed by the Athenian assembly.

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6279/001yyh.jpg

His brother, Nikanor, also returned and was tutored by his older brother. The polis flourished under Doros's governance.

https://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6005/002gxg.jpg

In Pergamon, Poublios became the new commander of the Athenian Army and the garrison of Pergamon. He ordered the construction of stone walls around the polis.


https://i.imgur.com/zszBO.jpg



https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8392/003bzq.jpg

In Sparte the improvements to military recruitment were completed.

https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1694/004or.jpg

While in Chalkis they only begun.

https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3634/005ih.jpg

Akrotatos had a son to continue his dynasty of Spartan Kings. Hippias would eventually succeed his father, as his father had succeeded Areus.

https://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3182/006vq.jpg

Damasos took the Sparte Reserve Army to patrol the Koinon's domain in preparation for the campaign against Serdike. He attacked a small Epeirote scouting party that could have been dangerous to the hellenic peasants in the countryside.

https://i.imgur.com/7vVhn.jpg



https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8382/008rsk.jpg



https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8682/009yg.jpg



https://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2985/010ts.jpg



https://img830.imageshack.us/img830/5967/011ro.jpg



https://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4012/012hi.jpg



https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9269/013ej.jpg



https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/73/014tcn.jpg



https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/629/015lg.jpg

Our spies discovered that Byzantion had been conquered by the Basileion of Pontos. Now if this small polis was to be added to the Koinon, a new war would have to be started.

https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1043/016ebv.jpg

And yet another war was possible. The Getai tribes were moving towards the south, to Tylis, just east of Serdike. They are our allies for now, but barbarians can't be trusted.

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8849/017ik.jpg

In Rhodos a military naval bay was finished.

https://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9568/018fkv.jpg

And in both Sparte and Athenai, well equipped and trained men were continuously recruited to support our military.

https://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7629/019vp.jpg

The campaign against Serdike was led by Strategos Agis. Even though members of the Spartan Krypteia usually don't leave Lakonia, an exception was made for him, as it was his responsability to lead the great army of the Koinon. The Army of Sparte, led by the two Kings, marched behind the Alliance Army.

https://img602.imageshack.us/img602/792/020xm.jpg

After a few skirmishes in the mountains, the main field armies eventually faced each other near Serdike. Archiadas Kathraios, pretender of the Epeirote throne, led the barbaric men of Dardonia.

https://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1240/021ru.jpg

This was Agis first battle as a Strategos, but he was a confident and promising Spartan.

https://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6585/022ig.jpg



https://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1672/023vi.jpg

In the front Agis held the line against the barbarian troops. The Army of Sparte was coming from behind the epeirotes to flank them.

https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2967/024sg.jpg

Akrotatos led the spartans, but it took some time to reach the main forces of Epeiros. The barbarians did everything to distract and delay our reinforcements.

https://img546.imageshack.us/img546/1315/025ug.jpg



https://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7154/026ur.jpg



https://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4893/027ak.jpg



https://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1374/028ap.jpg

With the arrival of the spartans, the barbarians were completely flanked and their line broke.

https://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5674/029zm.jpg

Archiadas retreated to Serdike with only a few of his once vast army.

https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3149/030ye.jpg



https://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3272/031pw.jpg

A great hero became part of the Strategos's guard for his valour in the battle.

https://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2708/032wf.jpg

Serdike was besieged and would likely fall during the winter.

https://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2738/033nl.jpg

But one of our own poleis was sieged as well!

https://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5193/034ll.jpg

A numerous Seleukid army besieged Pergamon. Poublios requested orders from the Athenian assembly on how to deal with this situation.

https://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8003/035dh.jpg

Serdike, in the beginning of the winter, was still under siege and could fall at any time.

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5202/036fbd.jpg

Such is the situation of our holdings in Hellas and Asia. Kydonia and Rhodos are excluded in this map:
https://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4461/037bwp.jpg


https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The polis session for 253 BC is now open.

[Paltmull]

-Help the people of Dalmatia to appoint a new ruler of their own (Vollorix) who will manage the great potential wealth of the silver and gold mines and the trade of the region and who can protect it from the attacks of the other barbarians. (Not yet, doesn't it require the last level of local barracks to recruit a client ruler? Should I cheat to get those?)

Not at all. It only requires a lvl 4 gov. :)

[Molinaargh]

Not at all. It only requires a lvl 4 gov. :)
I'll check that next time.

Small update to the Athenian parties:


https://i.imgur.com/igIZR.jpg

I've kept Arthouros as Epistates because he's been so helpful. Let me know if there were any other additions/changes that I missed, I haven't updated these in a long time.


https://i.imgur.com/1Trsp.jpg

[diomede]

What did Athens do to lose a civil war square? NOT that I'm complaining.

Athenians, let me know if you want to start a war with Pontos. Currently I would rather we didn't and expect that to be the sentiment of the rest of our council.

[Molinaargh]

As you guys can see I made myself a new sig (and avatar too!). I made samples if anyone wants to fill it with their own character info. You don't have to, of course. Here:


https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1706/characterathenian2.jpg

I'll probably be assigning influence points to everyone's characters so we can have some more interesting intra-koinon mechanics, we'll see.

The font I use is Charlemagne, by the way, if anyone wants to try to match it. It shouldn't be necessary though, and you can even add your text/portrait in Paint and it should work fine!

What did Athens do to lose a civil war square? NOT that I'm complaining.
Arthouros's proposals for 255 BC, I believe.

[Biowulf]

What did Athens do to lose a civil war square? NOT that I'm complaining.

Athenians, let me know if you want to start a war with Pontos. Currently I would rather we didn't and expect that to be the sentiment of the rest of our council.

I would think that a third war would be a very bad thing for us right now. Let's finish off Epeiros and see what the Getai do. As such:
I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.
I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.
I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.

[jirisys]

https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8476/traits.png

Done :grin:

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

https://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8476/traits.png

Done :grin:

~Jirisys ()
Done as well. Unfortunately, I cannot view it myself because Norton blocks imageshack. What a shame.:furious3::wall::skull:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Behold your Epistates! :

https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/ArthourosofAthenai-2.png


Athenians, let me know if you want to start a war with Pontos. Currently I would rather we didn't and expect that to be the sentiment of the rest of our council.

Yes we shall refrain from going to war against Pontos. For now... :sneaky:


I would think that a third war would be a very bad thing for us right now. Let's finish off Epeiros and see what the Getai do. As such:
I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.
I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.
I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.

1. DISAGREE - (See my Proposal below)

2. Neutral

3. AGREE


I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.


@Molinaargh, How many turns are left till the barracks in Athenai are completed?

Oh and could you edit the my law thingy in the OP (here and at TWC) I made a few typos I think:

-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the expansion Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shalll not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Change into this:

-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.


Without the bolded text of course, :smiley: Thanks in advance. :bow:

[Molinaargh]

@Molinaargh, How many turns are left till the barracks in Athenai are completed?

Oh and could you edit the my law thingy in the OP (here an at TWC) I made a few typos I think
Done. The barracks will take another 4 seasons.

[jirisys]

Behold your Epistates! :

https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/ArthourosofAthenai-1.png

Arthouros Attkos? lol, I will change mine to Leumenes!

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Done. The barracks will take another 4 seasons.

:bow:


Arthouros Attkos? lol, I will change mine to Leumenes!

~Jirisys ()

And I willl change mine to Attikos... https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/649d1254790901-2009-nlds-rockies-phillies-facepalm.gif

[Populus Romanus]

:bow:



And I willl change mine to Attikos... https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/649d1254790901-2009-nlds-rockies-phillies-facepalm.gif How did you get that smilie? It is only on TWCenter. Arthuoros is adopting Spartan Culture!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Well it's also on my photobucket (http://s760.photobucket.com/home/KingoftheBritons) account. :smartass2:

Found it here first though: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/members/vertigo+paris/albums/smilies-162/facepalm-smiley-1166.gif

[Tyrfingr]

I find it quite amusing that so many are young, supersmart, superbrave and awesome. If I would be part of this AAR, I would have that "gynaconomos-bla-bla" (supervisor of female gymnastics)-trait, along with the fat and bored trait :D

[Molinaargh]

https://i.imgur.com/fPYW4.jpg
Marble bust of Arthouros the Divider, first man to pass a Koinon Law since the foundation of the Alliance.
(digital painting I just made based on a bust of Attalus I)




I find it quite amusing that so many are young, supersmart, superbrave and awesome. If I would be part of this AAR, I would have that "gynaconomos-bla-bla" (supervisor of female gymnastics)-trait, along with the fat and bored trait :D
Do become a part of it! All you gotta do is get posting, it couldn't be any easier! :yes:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I find it quite amusing that so many are young, supersmart, superbrave and awesome. If I would be part of this AAR, I would have that "gynaconomos-bla-bla" (supervisor of female gymnastics)-trait, along with the fat and bored trait :D

Well the Age part is; how old we were in 272 BC, so for example I am 35 as of 254 BC. But yeah I agree we went a bit overboard with the ideal citizen part, me and Leumenes... Please do join the AAR, it is all great fun. :yes:

https://i.imgur.com/fPYW4.jpg
Marble bust of Arthouros the Divider, first man to pass a Koinon Law since the foundation of the Alliance.
(digital painting I just made based on a bust of Attalus I)


Hey I look slightly more handsome than usual, thanks Molinaargh. :yes:

[jirisys]

Well the Age part is; how old we were in 272 BC, so for example I am 35 as of 254 BC. But yeah I agree we went a bit overboard with the ideal citizen part, me and Leumenes... Please do join the AAR, it is all great fun. :yes:

https://i.imgur.com/fPYW4.jpg

Hey I look slightly more handsome than usual, good work on that Molinaargh. :yes:

Well, that's kinda how I am in real life :laugh4:

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Never mind.

[Molinaargh]

Never mind.
There was no reason to edit that :tongue:

There will be no update today because lots of proposals haven't been addressed yet, and not many have been made. Sunday isn't the best day to update since a lot of people spend the day away from the computer.

It would be nice if someone could make one of those awesome proposals lists tomorrow! :2thumbsup:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I realized too late that he referred to the traits and no the statue, so, yeah...

Will make a proposal list tomorrow. :yes:

[Populus Romanus]

Arthouros the Divider looks so souless and evil with no pupils. However, as always Molinaargh is highly accurate, for I have seen Arthuoros in person myself and can testify to the accuracy of that feature.


Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:





Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.





Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)



Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.







Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.



In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.




The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!



Sparte Nationalist Party sponsors: Appius



Lacedaemonian Unionist sponsors: Demothenes



Please do not say "I agree" or "I disagree" yet. This Act is a work in progress, and I will be continuously refining it for the next four years. Please instead explain what you like about this Act and what you dislike about it, so that your voice may be heard.

[Molinaargh]

Laws can only be proposed during a Koinon Session. Next one will be 4 years (4 updates) from now, it's when elections happen. It's more organized this way.

You can try to gain support for your law now, but it's not under official voting and it will have to wait.

[huth]

Copied from twc:
Hey, I recently discovered this AAR, and I must say it's great - idea and Molina's rendition is awesome. I've noticed that some of you have a sig with info of own character, so I though, that I could do something like that, for training my art-skillz and because idea hit on me that this sig could be something similar to greek epitaph, I now that it's for dead person, but I don't care :P
So, you can see two sigs in spoiler below, they have a place for portrait/avatar on the left, same text categories and specific emblem on the hoplon. If anyone of you want one with other emblem on the shield, different text composition, have problems with edition or want me to add/change something in it - go on, that's no problem to make :)

https://img808.imageshack.us/img808/432/atheniensis2.png
https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/341/lacedaemonis2.png

[Greenlizard0.]

Behold your Epistates! :

1. DISAGREE - (See my Proposal below)

2. Neutral

3. AGREE


I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.


:bow:

I agree with the proposal of Arthourous.

Edit:

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:





Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.





Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)



Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.







Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.



In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.




The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!



Sparte Nationalist Party sponsors: Appius



Lacedaemonian Unionist sponsors: Demothenes



Please do not say "I agree" or "I disagree" yet. This Act is a work in progress, and I will be continuously refining it for the next four years. Please instead explain what you like about this Act and what you dislike about it, so that your voice may be heard.

Arthouros who now held the high honour of serving his second term as Epistates ton Athenai arrived at the assembly early. Early enough to hear the Spartiatai law proposal that was actually rather extensive. When the Spartiates - or was he a Rhômaioi, Arthouros couldn't quite tell, had left the podium, Arthouros began addressing his law proposal:

"How marvellous, another law proposal I wholeheartedly... Wait what is this: :inquisitive:



Arthouros the Divider looks so souless and evil with no pupils. However, as always Molinaargh Zeus Pater is highly accurate, for I have seen Arthuoros in person myself and can testify to the accuracy of that feature.

:furious3:

Spartan! How dare you insult my handsomeness and the vigour of my soul!? Just for that I shall DISAGREE with your puny law proposal, and as I Arthouros Attikos The Divider am Epistates my DISAGREE counts as two. Try getting this to pass now! Hah!


OOC
:clown: Okay, real reason to why I disagree is that I don't see how this is necessary, and I believe that restriction over our finances is un-constitutional. Plus I just don't like the idea of restricting our spendings.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Biowulf:

1. I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.

2. I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.

3. I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.


1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

2. Result: Pending

3. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Arthouros:

1. I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

2. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

3. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

4. I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.

1. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull

2. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull

3. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull

4. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull




Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act:


Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:





Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.





Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)



Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.






Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.



In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.




The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!


DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

[Molinaargh]

Spartan! How dare you insult my handsomeness and the vigour of my soul!? Just for that I shall DISAGREE with your puny law proposal, and as I Arthouros Attikos The Divider am Epistates my DISAGREE counts as two. Try getting this to pass now! Hah!
I know this is a joke, but the position of Epistates is an Athenian one, not a Koinon one. So the "counts as two" only works for polis sessions, not the Koinon session. Just figured I'd clear that up. And it's a shady rule anyway! :laugh4:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Okay.




~Arthouros

[Populus Romanus]

Arthouros the Pupil-less, you can't disagree yet, because this isn't a Koinon Session, so the law cannot even be voted on. If you do not the law, instead tell me what you don't like about it, so that it can be improved. For instance, you say you do not like the overregulation you percieve in this law. Then you can just add an amendment limiting the power of the law. Your voice can be heard, you only need to speak.
Muwahhahahaah!
@Molinaarg: In the Gerousia, do Ephoroi votes count as two, then?

[Paltmull]

Hey Populus...
https://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss154/paltmull/arthuros.jpg

Now shut up!


(Sorry about desecrating your work Molinaargh :sweatdrop:)

EDIT: Btw, I agree with the proposals Arthuros agreed with and disagree with those he disagreed with. I also agree with all the proposals that Arthuros made.

[Molinaargh]

@Molinaarg: In the Gerousia, do Ephoroi votes count as two, then?
No, there is no equivalent to the Epistates in Sparte. The position of Ephor (Sparte) is equivalent to the position of Prytanis (Athens), who are the Party Leaders.


https://i.imgur.com/WbLwo.jpg
Marble bust of Appius, the Spartan-Roman Ephor of the Sparte Nationalist Party and loyal councilor of the Spartan Gerousia.
(digital painting based on a bust of Agrippa)

I'll be making more of these of other Spartans and Athenians when I have time. It's good to have a purpose for drawing something.

I have added a "Koinon Pantheion" (Hall of Fame) section to the end of the first post, where I'll be putting these. Great contributors will enter the hall of fame!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Nice one, though of course I as an Athenian is by default prettier, more effeminate handsomer and more manly.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Biowulf:

1. I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.

2. I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.

3. I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.


1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Demosthenes

2. DISAGREE Demosthenes

3. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Demosthenes


Arthouros:

1. I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

2. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

3. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

4. I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.

1. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes PARTIALLY AGREE Rhobrios Pergamios (Jaertecken) (See his proposal for details)

2. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes

3. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes

4. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes



Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act:


Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:





Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.





Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)



Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.






Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.



In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.






The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!


DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Rhobrios Pergamios/Jaertecken:

1. I PROPOSE that as soon as the siege of Pergamon is lifted, that the athenian host under the command of General Doros lay siege and sack Sardis in retaliation.

1. Result: Pending.

[jirisys]

I want my own! I was the man who broke and then unified this alliance in the first years!

Mommy? Why is the mean man not making a marble statue out of me?

~Jirisys (:laugh4:)

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"Arthouros, how glad I am that a man of such standing has been blessed by the Gods once more and represents this council as Epistates for another term. I feel that, by this, we have all been blessed. Fitting, too, that your name be given to the first statute of our great Koinon, and it is a fine tribute to your tireless work for Athens and for Hellas is that that momentous occasion cannot be taken from you. As for the bust in your honour...well, I suppose flattery is appreciated for such a long-lived record, there are certainly fewer lines upon that face than upon your own. Not that I have any room to talk, it has been a rough and at times desperate time for our generation.

I DISAGREE with the proposal that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army (Biowulf 1) as I prefer and AGREE with your own suggestion; that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there (Arthouros 1). I AGREE that we should send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai (Biowulf 3). I DISAGREE with the proposal that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. Whether or not it be only a few hundred, they are our mnai, earned by our people, by Hellenes. I do not wish to get carried away with the Koinon's success but... I believe that we are strong enough that we need not buy peace with barbarian neighbours. If they choose war then that shall be their end. We defeated the Makedonians. We did not cower behind gifts of gold in the face of their threat, why should we, then, cower before illiterate hordes whom could not dent Makedonian suzerainty?

I AGREE with Arthouros' other proposals.

As for Appius Claudius' proposed law... I think it has merit, and I am glad that it has been raised so early as we have time to fine-tune it's details. We must have fairness and accountability throughout the Koinon, and such must be seen as such. Forward Hellenes. Let us make the world a better place, let us civilise it......as only we Hellenes can"

[Tyrfingr]

http://image.bayimg.com/iadmjaadp.jpg

Rhobrios Pergamios, a rich athenian citizen of pergamese birth, takes the stand. (consider this me joining the AAR)

I strongly agree with the first part Arthouros' first proposal of sending a relief force, led by Doros, to Pergamon. However, I disagree with the second part, shipping our beloved general Doros across the Aegaeum Mare every time the foul seleukid dogs reaches for the riches of Pergamon. The Seleukids must pay for their outrageous attack on Pergamon, and thus:

I propose that as soon as the siege of Pergamon is lifted, that the athenian host under the command of General Doros lay siege and sack Sardis in retaliation.

[Molinaargh]

This session is now closed.

[jirisys]

Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act:

I DISAGREE.

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

I DISAGREE.

~Jirisys ()Which one?Better not be mine...:angry:

[jirisys]

Wiseguy :laugh4:

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

253 BC


Athenian motions:
-Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. He is then to leave reinforecements in the polis and return to Athenai. (Yes)
-Send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help. (Yes)
-Expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further. (Yes)
-Build better barracks in Kydonia. (Yes)
-In Athenai, recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited. (Not all of them were recruited, priority was given to Spartan spendings as they hold the office of Hegemon).

Spartan motions:
-Immediatly assault Serdike. (Yes)
-Leave Naissos untouched. We could use a buffer between ourselves and our allies, the Getai. (Yes)
-Launch the Sikilian Expedition. (Yes)
-Gradually replace levy troops with more professional troops. (Yes, I guess)
-Further advancement to Byzantion to be halted. (Yes)
-Request help from the Athenian Fleet to from a Koinon Fleet. (Yes)
-Improve barracks at Sparte. (Yes)
-More Agents be recruited and sent to the cities of the Getai establishing an intelligence network. (Yes)



The Defence of Pergamon



Agis officially finished his Agoge training when he was dismissed from the Krypteia. He then focused fully on the challenge of leading the Koinon military is its Strategos. It was time to finish what he started at the Battle of Serdike and finally conquer the city.

https://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5676/001jlo.jpg



https://img541.imageshack.us/img541/157/002lic.jpg



https://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2310/003gxr.jpg



https://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8813/004gue.jpg



https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8295/005omf.jpg



https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7840/006xmo.jpg



https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7573/007ixx.jpg



https://img194.imageshack.us/img194/225/008dzv.jpg



https://img408.imageshack.us/img408/549/009hz.jpg

The government to be established in the city was undecided, so word was sent to the Spartan Gerousia asking for their advice on this matter. The settlement was not a hellenic one - these were barbaric people - but they could either adopt some hellenic ways or be left alone.

https://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6154/009bw.jpg

Some of the population were recruited as guards to maintain order.

https://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8866/010kw.jpg

While the Koinon Stratia remained close to the city. Agis thought an attack could be made from Naissos, but it never came. He wondered if building a couple of fortifications north of the settlement could guarantee a strong position so that the Koinon Army could move on to other lands, other battles.

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3306/010bc.jpg

A series of spies were recruited in Hellas and sent to scout the North, the East and the West.

https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4207/011ie.jpg

In Rhodos the military port went through reforms only a few seasons after it was built.

https://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5773/011bcm.jpg

In Sparte the military complex was being optimized. It was a heavy investment, but after this there would be no better equipment or training available. Sparte was reaching the pinnacle of military. Never stronger weapons would be forged...

https://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5739/012qx.jpg



https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2020/012awc.jpg

In Kydonia some military improvements were being made as well.

https://img834.imageshack.us/img834/166/012bo.jpg

While in Athenai the maximum potential had already been reached. Powerful elite training and equipment are now available in the polis.

https://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3466/013ni.jpg



https://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2489/014zgf.jpg



https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9374/015dmw.jpg



https://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8498/016mb.jpg



https://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7613/017hm.jpg

Doros sailed from Athenai to Pergamon to aid in the defence of Pergamon. He took a small Athenian force freshly trained with him, but the huge garrison of Pergamon would be the backbone of the defence.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8175/018rd.jpg



https://img703.imageshack.us/img703/4941/019vm.jpg

The fearsome Seleukid chariots would play a decisive role in the battle, but not the role they wished.

https://img844.imageshack.us/img844/2629/020at.jpg

The troops from Pergamon quickly arrived under Poublios and were placed under the command of Doros.

https://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2111/021tt.jpg



https://img594.imageshack.us/img594/3585/022bvq.jpg



https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3672/023lo.jpg

The Seleukid army tried to ambush the Athenians and their allies in the forest, but the hellenes held ground.

https://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4443/024nk.jpg

The chariots were able to do some damage to Doros's forces, but were too reckless.

https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4784/025nmx.jpg

Scared, the horses retreated back to the Seleukid lines and couldn't be controlled.

https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2134/026vs.jpg

The chariots ended up breaking the Seleukid formation and killing many of their own men.

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3310/027wnc.jpg

Doros ordered the hellenes to charge, and from there it was an easy victory.

https://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4422/028dr.jpg



https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9/029il.jpg



https://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7718/030yp.jpg

Afraid that Halikarnassos could join the Koinon due to our recent successes in Anatolia, the Seleukids besieged that polis, attempting to strike first and gain more power before we did.

https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1516/031eg.jpg

Such is the situation of Asia.

https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2452/032ol.jpg

In the West, our recently trained spies found that the Romands have been sending small forces to Illyria, but haven't managed to gain a foothold yet.

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2396/034qr.jpg

But in the north of what they call "Italia" they had.

https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7208/035scp.jpg

The situation in our northern borders is chaotic. Marching armies of the barbarian Getai tribes threaten the stability of our alliance, armies of the Basileos of Pontos come from Byzantion with unknown intentions and even the men from Naissos roam this uncertain frontier.

https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1871/036otj.jpg

Regardless, the Spartans began their move to a new frontier. The Spartan armies met in the port of Ambrakia so that a strong force could be gathered to go in an expedition.

https://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9125/037is.jpg

The two kings decided to lead this expedition themselves, taking as many men as they could in a mostly Spartan fleet reinforced by a few Athenian ships. Upon their arrival, the kings would each control half of the forces.

https://img196.imageshack.us/img196/530/038kp.jpg

The destination? Sikilia.

https://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9436/039zl.jpg




https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The polis session is now open.

I can't see any of the images, I hope you can! :dizzy2:

[Populus Romanus]

A slave walked into the Boule hall, and took Appius' seat. Soon, it came his turn to speak.
Men of Athenai, I bring you news from my master. He is unable to you himself, as he off on campaign with the Kings in the Sikilian Expedition. He would like me to point out to you that the Seleukeis are spread thin. A large part of their surviving forces are besieging Halikarnassos, leaving a petty garrison in Sardis. Appius believes that both the besieging force and Sardis are targets ripe for the picking. Relieving Halikarnassos, however, will do little to benifit the Koinon Hellenon. Taking Sardis would take a large amount of the heat off Pergamon and give the Stratia ton Athenai a more secure position with more offensive possibilities. You have a very ideal situation for some easy expansion, men of Athenai.

[Vaginacles]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

[Molinaargh]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

...
Look who's back!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge.



I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

I DISAGREE. Not out of love for barbarians in general, but rather because it would make us Athenians look as hypocrites, as we opposed the enslavement of the population of Pella.


Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

I DISAGREE

Instead I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) there and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.
I also PROPOSE that we appoint a client ruler in Sardis. WITHDRAWN

I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.



If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?



Oh, and welcome back Vaginacles. :bow:

[Tyrfingr]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

I agree on all of Vaginacles' proposals! The seulukids must pay for the hundreds of dead in the defense of Pergamon!

However, I must raise the question of the spartans, who are now sailing for Silikia - for who's account are they sailing? Sparta, or their own personal glory? Either way, we the Koinon have no interest in the west and the spheres of the Romani and Karkhēdōn, and a Silikia under spartan dominance would surely threathen the balance of our Koinon, maybe to the cause of civil war. The conquering lust of the spartan kings must be satisfied however, and through my contacts among traders and salesmen across the Mediterraneum, I have heard of Kyrenaia. Their king Magas is surpassing me in obesity, which says alot, and the people is screaming for new leadership. Let the spartans set sail for Kyrenaia, if they must sail anywhere.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

My other proposal is of a more religious matter. As we speak, we are constructing barracks and training facilities in Kydonia for the future recruitment of the cretans into the koinons' armies. However, I notice that Kydonia lacks a proper place of worship, and men without spirital guidance is men without hope.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I agree on all of Vaginacles' proposals! The seulukids must pay for the hundreds of dead in the defense of Pergamon!

However, I must raise the question of the spartans, who are now sailing for Silikia - for who's account are they sailing? Sparta, or their own personal glory? Either way, we the Koinon have no interest in the west and the spheres of the Romani and Karkhēdōn, and a Silikia under spartan dominance would surely threathen the balance of our Koinon, maybe to the cause of civil war. The conquering lust of the spartan kings must be satisfied however, and through my contacts among traders and salesmen across the Mediterraneum, I have heard of Kyrenaia. Their king Magas is surpassing me in obesity, which says alot, and the people is screaming for new leadership. Let the spartans set sail for Kyrenaia, if they must sail anywhere.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

"I am of the belief that it is not wise to even try this; the Spartiatai have planned the invasion of Silikia for several years and suggesting them to steer their ships elsewhere would most likely only serve to annoy them and cause tension between our Poleis. It is also not in the Athenian Boule that it is decided where the Spartiatai armies go, but in the Gedrosia of Sparte. *

In other words I DISAGREE with this proposal.


My other proposal is of a more religious matter. As we speak, we are constructing barracks and training facilities in Kydonia for the future recruitment of the cretans into the koinons' armies. However, I notice that Kydonia lacks a proper place of worship, and men without spirital guidance is men without hope.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

To this proposal I AGREE with, though of course the barracks in Kydonia would have to be completed first."

Arthouros was seated.



* Proposals concerning Spartan armies can be made over at TWC, though as I as said I'm quite sure they would not welcome this proposal

[Tyrfingr]

Rhobrios takes the stand once more:

As I said before, Silikia is in the romani and carthaginian spheres of interest, and an spartan invasion of Silikia will effect all of the Koinon. Must I remind you that it's our athenian trading fleets who provides our league with the gold and silver to fund our armies? We cannot interfere in the western Mediterraneum, not yet. Let us build our strength in the east instead!

Arthouros has shown wisedom in supporting my proposal of constructing a shrine for glorious Athena in Kydonia, let that wisedom shine also on political matters!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Paltmull]

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

I AGREE with proposals I, II and IV. I DISAGREE with proposal III. Athens should not establish military dictatorships over other Hellenes.



I DISAGREE. Not out of love for barbarians in general, but rather because it would make us Athenians look as hypocrites, as we opposed the enslavement of the population of Pella.


The Macedonians of Pella are, at least partially, Greek. You have to see the difference between Greeks and barbarians, Arthuros. The prosperity of our polis is heavily dependent on slavery, after all.



Instead I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) there and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.
I also PROPOSE that we appoint a client ruler in Sardis.

I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.


I AGREE with proposals I and III. I DISAGREE with proposal II, unless a client ruler is necessary to maintain public order. (IIRC, client rulers and allied generals occupy FM slots; which means that the chance of new FM:s being born decreases when you recruit client rulers. If this is not true, I WITHDRAW my disagreement and AGREE instead)



Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.


I DISAGREE for the same reasons as Arthuros. Sparta's non-Koinon plans are none of our business.


I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

I AGREE!

And also: who gave our fleet permission to participate in Spartan expeditions?! I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first.

(our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Rhobrios takes the stand once more:

As I said before, Silikia is in the romani and carthaginian spheres of interest, and an spartan invasion of Silikia will effect all of the Koinon. Must I remind you that it's our athenian trading fleets who provides our league with the gold and silver to fund our armies? We cannot interfere in the western Mediterraneum, not yet. Let us build our strength in the east instead!

Arthouros has shown wisedom in supporting my proposal of constructing a shrine for glorious Athena in Kydonia, let that wisedom shine also on political matters!




255 BC: The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (by Arthouros the Divider)
-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Arthouros stood up and spoke:

"I trust that you are familiar with this law? You bring forward an interesting point, that the Spartiatai expansion in Sikilia may bring the Koinon too close to the spheres of the Kart-Hadastei and the Rhômaioi. From what I have gathered by their discussions in the Gedrosia, they plan to block the straits of Messana with their fleet, and as the Rhômaioi do not have much of a fleet available to them they will effectively be blocked from interfering in the Spartiatai expansion there. Of course the Kart-Hadastei who have a presence on Sikilia might be harder to avoid war with. Sikilia, being an island, is also relatively easy to defend, something that Kyrenaia, being located on the mainland and close to the Ptolemaioi, is not.

Moving on:

You wish us to focus on the East instead of the West, correct? But that is exactly what we are doing - as when I say we I mean us Athenians, while "they"; the Spartiatiai focus on the West. If the Spartans would infer on our Eastern sphere of interest, then they would most likely make sure that the Polies they take are either neutral or aligned towards them, meaning that it is desirable for us to make sure that "they" focus on the West and we on the East. And I am certain that the Spartiatai would not just sit idly by and wait until they get thumbs up from us to start expanding, while we take Mikra Asia and gain influence, power and wealth."

Arthouros was seated, after respectfully nodding towards Rhobrios.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OOC:






I AGREE with proposals I and III. I DISAGREE with proposal II, unless a client ruler is necessary to maintain public order. (IIRC, client rulers and allied generals occupy FM slots; which means that the chance of new FM:s being born decreases when you recruit client rulers. If this is not true, I WITHDRAW my disagreement and AGREE instead)

You're right they do take up FM slots, and we do have fewer FMs than the Spartans which wouldn't really be remedied by this- I WITHDRAW my (Proposal II) proposal to recruit a client ruler in Sardis.



And also: who gave our fleet permission to paricipate in Spartan expeditions?! I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resourses for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. I AGREE.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Vaginarcles:

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.


1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull DISAGREE Arthouros

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:


1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?


1. AGREE Paltmull

2. AGREE Paltmull


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!


1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Paltmull:

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Athenai – Strategos = 3 Hegemon = 1

Sparte – Strategos = 3 Hegemon = 4

Hmm... We haven't had much luck when it comes to Hegemon elections...

@Molinaargh Which stats do our Athenian Family members have (management, influence)?

[Greenlizard0.]

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I am in line with this proposal.


I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

As the people has not done a lot wrong, I don't accept this motion.


Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

Disagreed. Instead, I would like to support:





Instead I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) there and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

, as this seems to be a better idea.


I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

For the protection of the polis Halikarnassos against our enemies, I am in favor with this proposition.




Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

We should not decide what the Spartans should do.




I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

Agreed.

I propose we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.

Oh, and Vaginarcles, could you please specify what you mean with 2000 Toxoloi (= 25 units of 80 men) and 4000 Peltast (= 50 units of 80 men) ? (I wasn't sure how many troops there are in each unit, yet Molinarch uses a small setting, so I assumed 80 men/unit).


https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Vaginarcles:

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.


1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull, Greenlizard0 PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull DISAGREE Arthouros Greenlizard0

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros, Greenlizard0

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:


1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?


1. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0

2. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!


1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0


Paltmull:

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros


Greenlizard0:

1. I PROPOSE we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.


1. AGREE Arthouros

[Populus Romanus]

Just to clarify, we will not turn our ships away from Sikilia.
And also, there is no reason to be worried about the Phoinikoi in Sikilia. The very reason we are sailing there is to kick their arses off the island, and spare our Hellenic brothers from their wrath. I must also say that attacking Kyrenaicia is absolutely out of the question. This would bring us into conflict with the Ptolemaioi, who we need in our fight against the Seleukeis.

Signed,
Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Good men of Athens, I AGREE with Vaginacles' first three proposals; that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations, that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants and that we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. This is not out of any sense of revenge upon Sardis, but rather for the reasons that Vaginacles offered in support of his proposals. We need the manpower and the mnai we will gain from such action. By the nature of this agrrement I must therefore DISAGREE with the counter-proposals of Arthouros. I DISAGREE also with the proposal that we establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) at Halikarnassos, though I AGREE that we should take it following on from Sardis. Instead I PROPOSE that we establish Halikarnassos as an allied autonomous polis within the Koinon..., neutral within Koinon affairs. This would offer the same balance sought by Arthouros' proposals.

While I AGREE with Rhobrios' proposal to build a shrine for Athena in Kydonia, I DISAGREE with any proposal which seeks to command Spartan affairs in the West. Not only would such a move be precipitous - in terms of good relations within the Koinon - but it would also be in direct contradiction of Arthouros' law of division. By that law we have no right to interfere with Sparte in their pursuits in the West. Our friend from Sparte, Appius, has also made clear that Sparte's plans are pretty well thought out.

Finally, I AGREE that we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.

I PROPOSE, in addition, that we seek an alliance with Pontos. By such we might better defend our holdings against what will likely be a concerted effort from the Seleukids to regain lost ground in Asia.

[Greenlizard0.]

Instead I PROPOSE that we establish Halikarnassos as an allied autonomous polis within the Koinon..., neutral within Koinon affairs. This would offer the same balance sought by Arthouros' proposals.

Mainly because I agree on Athouros' plan, I must oppose your motion.


I PROPOSE, in addition, that we seek an alliance with Pontos. By such we might better defend our holdings against what will likely be a concerted effort from the Seleukids to regain lost ground in Asia.

While the attack of Pontos on the Polis of Sinope (our onetime ally) may not be forgotten, I partly agree on this (until our common enemy is not dangoures anymore).

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Vaginarcles:

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.


1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull, Greenlizard0, Demosthenes PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull, Demosthenes
DISAGREE Arthouros, Greenlizard0

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Demosthenes
DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros, Greenlizard0

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:


1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?


1. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0, DISAGREE Demosthenes


2. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0DISAGREE Demosthenes (though [AGREE[/B] that Halikarnassos is to be conquered next)


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!


1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0, Demosthenes

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0, Demosthenes


Paltmull:

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros


Greenlizard0:

1. I PROPOSE we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.


1. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes


Demosthenes:


1. I PROPOSE that we establish Halikarnassos as an allied autonomous polis within the Koinon..., neutral within Koinon affairs. This would offer the same balance sought by Arthouros' proposals.

2. I PROPOSE, in addition, that we seek an alliance with Pontos. By such we might better defend our holdings against what will likely be a concerted effort from the Seleukids to regain lost ground in Asia.


1. DISAGREE Greenlizard0, Arthouros

2. PARTIALLY AGREE Greenlizard0: "We surely need to be in agreement with the Spartans. Thus, I make it a requirement (or I retreat my agreement). I do find it a difficult desission. Pontos did attack three hellenic poleis. (Byzantium, Sinope and Nikaia). Perhaps I will reconsider it."

[Greenlizard0.]

We surely need to be in agreement with the Spartans. Thus, I make it a requirement (or I retreat my agreement). I do find it a difficult desission. Pontos did attack three hellenic poleis. (Byzantium, Sinope and Nikaia). Perhaps I will reconsider it.

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

While the attack of Pontos on the Polis of Sinope (our onetime ally) may not be forgotten, I partly agree on this (until our common enemy is not dangoures anymore).

I should, perhaps, have been clearer. It is not with a mind to a long term alliance with Pontos, but rather as a short term necessity, until such time as we have..... neutralised the threat of that Persian-Makedonian abomination, the Arche Seleukeia. Pontos will still, one day, pay for their aggression against our allies in Sinope.

[Molinaargh]

This session is now over. Thanks guys.

[Vaginacles]

It is not a matter of right and wrong, it is a matter of pros and cons. Sardis has a history of supporting Kings and empires that seek to stifle the greek concept of freedom and self determination. Let us not forget that Sardis has been a stronghold for Imperial dominion since before Cyrus the Great and Marathon. The satrapy of Lydia has always been anti-greek autonomy, the non-hellens have no concept of self rule and will revert to a native strongman for leadership unless actions are taken to ensure their loyalty. I am not calling for the culling of the Hellene that makes their home there, as these brothers share our history and culture, and they are more likely to resist the imperial ambitions of the Seleucids. But what about the Persians in the royal court who benefitted from Seleucid status quo? What about the nationalistic Lydians who desire to see themselves carve a new empire in their name? We cannot afford civil unrest in a city like Sardis, that lies in the middle of Mitra Asia. Civil disturbance and the existence of Seleucid Loyalists are factors that would undermine our war and our strategic position in Asia. It is of vital importance that we reinforce Sardis and have it as a bulwark against Seleucid Aggression, and deny them access to the Agaean sea. As long as Sardis is in our hands, the trade with the bosphorous colonies and continue unabated, and grain can freely flow into Athens. If we allow these Lydians and Persians to govern themselves, we could see another Pontus, another Armenia, or another Cyrene, rise from a city that was supposedly pacified.

Furthermore, The Macedonian wars has left thousands of Attikans landless and in desperate need of employment. The devastation wrought on the fields of Attica have obliterated the Yeomanry that we rely on for our hoplites. Let us establish a military settlement, and in time form a colony in Sardis, where all inhabitants eventually become Athenian Citizens. This would allow the Landless in Athens to obtain property, and meet the requirement neccessary to qualify for Hoplite Service, as well as providing a solid recruitment base on a frontier region that will see hard fighting for the years to come. It would also solve the squalor we see daily, no more beggers in the Agora clammering for employment. They would be sent to Sardis, where their numbers will count for something, Rather than stay in Attica, where their numbers burden our Cities and towns.

Therefore, I REITERATE the value of military settlement and enslavement of Non-Hellenes in Sardis

[Molinaargh]

252 BC


Athenian motions:
(Yes)-Attack Sardis.
(Yes)-Train toxotai and peltastai to man the walls of Sardis.
(Yes)-Establish a Free Allied Kingdom in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.
(Not yet)-Upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there.
(Already building barracks)-Build, in Kydonia, a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!
(Yes)-Build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Mikra Asia against the Arche Seleukeia.

Spartan motions:
(Syrakousai under siege)-When the miltary forces reach Sikilia we immediately assault Syrakousai in order the be in a strategic position. We should blockade the area near Messana to prevent Romanoi from invading Sikilia as well.
(Not yet)-After conquering Syrakousoi one of the two armies must go on to Messana after some retraining.
(They ran away)-Send the alliance army to crush the Epirote army east of Serdike and Pella.
(Already done so)-Gain trades rights with Carthage if not already done so.
(Yes)-Spend less on military.
(Yes)-Establish diplomatic relations with Pontos. The fact that they are now a major player in Thraikia worries me, we should try to have them as friends rather than enemies.
(Yes)-Establish a level III government in Serdike.
(Yes)-Train one unit of Thorikitai Hoplitai.
(Didn't work)-Make an "anonymous donation" to the Averni Keltoi on the condition that they attack the Romanoi. That should halt their Illyrioi expansion.
(Yes in Pella)-Build economic buildings in Pella and Corinthos.
(Not yet)-Construct a native barracks (non-factional troops) in Pella.
(One fort built)-Build two forts north of Serdike to slow down any attack from Naissos.
(Yes)-Build the next level of walls in Serdike to fend of any invasion plans our Getic allies might try in future.
(Yes)-Spies in the northern Italy area to be sent south to see the situation in Rhegion and Sicily more clearly.
(Yes)-Begin training assassins, but we leave them in the cities to complete their training.
(Yes, but they rejected)-Offer an Alliance to Pontus in return for the polis of Sinope.
(Barracks are under construction, taxes at lowest)-Lower taxes and construct agriculture in Sparte.



Surpontosrise!






By the end of the winter, Nikanor's son was born in Athenai. His name was Polyktor. During the year, Agis won the Olympic Games. Nikanor himself also "won".

https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1655/000dyi.jpg

Agis recieved orders to build a couple of forts around Serdike, but analyzing the terrain, a single fort between the mountains seemed to be the most efficient way to defend the northern frontier. The Koinon Stratia stayed in the fort during the rest of the winter.

https://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2544/001ek.jpg

In Serdike itself, a local tyrant was established as head of state.

https://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2575/002xge.jpg

Further south, in Pella, the merchant harbors went under reformations.

https://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9366/003nfu.jpg

All the way to Italia, our spies scouted the city of Roma itself as well as Megale Hellas in order not to be surprised by a sudden roman attack.

https://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3174/004qhn.jpg

With that secured, the spartan armies desembarked in the fields of Syrakousai...

https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8668/005zdi.jpg

...and besieged the polis.

https://img541.imageshack.us/img541/1156/006fti.jpg

Syrakousai remained under siege throughout the year. (I tried assaulting Syrakousai, but the reinforcements were placed under the AI despite me checking them not to, and when I left the battle to reload and try again I got a CTD, which turned me off in trying yet again to attack Syrakousai. It shall be done next year if that's the council's will).

https://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3465/006blv.jpg

In the south of Megale Hellas, the romans continued their advance with the conquest of Rhegion.

https://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4063/006cfc.jpg

But there was another military campaign all the way to the other side of the (known!) world. Polemarchos Poublios marched with the Athenian Army to besiege Sardis. In order to do so he had to fight the enemy outside the city first.

https://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2407/007uei.jpg



https://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5503/008uuv.jpg



https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8580/009gzx.jpg



https://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4915/010koo.jpg



https://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3239/011hfl.jpg

The Seleukid reinforcements from Sardis came...

https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9400/012nlv.jpg

...and went.

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8386/013hv.jpg

Without the reinforcements from Sardis, the Seleukids fell quickly.

https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6763/014bf.jpg



https://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7484/015wwa.jpg

And Sardis was besieged.

https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/5843/016rgf.jpg

It didn't last long, though. The Seleukid army that was besieging Halikarnassos came back to defend Sardis, and this battle was much tougher.

https://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2601/017rwk.jpg



https://img191.imageshack.us/img191/684/018uvx.jpg



https://img502.imageshack.us/img502/264/019yo.jpg



https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2871/020qxh.jpg



https://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5369/021cm.jpg

Sardis was taken and occupied, but the battle was costly. Many of the men returned to Pergamon to be retrained, then immedatly back to reinforce Sardis.

https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/223/022bj.jpg

An alliance was proposed to Pontos. In exchange, they were asked for the polis of Sinope. They refused this proposal, and were perhaps quite worried about the Koinon's interest in Sinope.

https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7133/023afm.jpg



https://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4802/025aqv.jpg

Afterall, the Pontic armies marched towards Hellas, ignoring our borders. Agis hastily returned to Makedonia and sent scouts to ask what were the intentions of the Pontic armies.

https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6364/026mtr.jpg

They sent our scouts back. Bodyless. It was a declaration of war.

https://img840.imageshack.us/img840/913/026bm.jpg

Pella was put under siege shortly after. Agis quickly marched with the Alliance Army to save the city.

https://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2515/027mr.jpg



https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7532/028xmi.jpg



https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2474/029hy.jpg



https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/658/030gx.jpg



https://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2199/031mo.jpg



https://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2630/032pq.jpg

With this victory, this is now the situation of our northern frontier, northern Hellas:

https://img836.imageshack.us/img836/916/033me.jpg

In the eastern frontier, Poublios decided to stay garrisoned in Sardis instead of leaving the city undefended while making an assault on Halikarnassos. There are now two enemies in the East, and he couldn't allow the eastern frontier to stay undefended.

https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8449/034rwe.jpg

In the West, the spartans kept Syrakousai under siege.

https://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3312/035xp.jpg

Financial situation of the Koinon by the end of 252 BC:

https://img571.imageshack.us/img571/7329/036zt.jpg

Current map of the Koinon:

https://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8044/037vd.jpg


https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
This polis session is now open.

[Populus Romanus]

Athenians, I come bearing news from the Gerousia. I would like to ask if Athenai would be willing to attack the treacherous Pontiacs in Bithynia. I am fairly certain that the Gerousia will pass a motion to liberate Byzantion, however we will just be bogged down there and unable to defend Hellas' Northern border due to inevitable Poniac attacks on Byzantion. If Nikomedia could be taken and Bithynia wrested from their control, then Byzantion would be much more secure. Now, under normal circumstaces we Spartiate would simply take Nikomedia ourselves, however Arthouros the Divider's law forbids Spartiate entrance to Mikra Asia. Therefore, only Athenai can take Nikomedia. I therefore humbly ask if you would be willing to hold off on your plans to liberate Halikarnassos for a year in order to defeat Pontos in Bithynia.

[jirisys]

(I'm on a blackberry, so don't mind my tardiness and shloppyness)

Leumenes, a man that hadn't been seen either in the gerousia or the boule in years, was now at the doorstep of the entrance. He felt the joy and great sentiments he felt when he first stepped inside the honorable boule. He had troublesome time catching up to both assembly's actions.
His son was growing old (OOC: Arthur, could you please point out how old he is, I mentioned his birth in a post and I can't check it, kthx) and he had moved to Lakedaimonia. The land where he was born, his son was in the agoge, he was treated like a regular spartan, no different than both Leumenes or his father. He was, unlike other spartans however, being thaught athenian philosophy, when he would come to the city to steal food, his father also instructed him about life, and it's nature. Without giving him any assistance in his training.
He had left his wife with the kid, she also was studying philosphy, and like his spartan fellows, she had nore to say than she could in Athens. Chremonides was soon going to make his first step into the assembly.

After he finished reading he sat down to deliberate on his first proposals in years.


~Jirisys ()

[Greenlizard0.]

Things turn out differently then we expected. To react against the new treat I have a few motions:

1: I propose we quicly attack the last Seleucid stronghold in the area, Ipsos. That way we will have more time to handle Pontos.

2: After (1): I propose that we swiftly attack Nikaia .

3a: After (1): I propose we send a enough reënforcements to Ipsos, including most of the troops that now defend Sardis.

(3b: If we don't manage to get hold on Nikaia or Ipsos, I propose we send the reënforcements to Sardis and Pergamon).

4: I propose we build walls in both Nikaia and Ipsos.

Edit: The Koinon exist 20 years!

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Tyrfingr]

Has Green Lizard been bought by the pontic princes perhaps, or is it genuine cowardice we see on display? The seleukids has been broken with the loss of Sardis, Ipsos is protected by but a small garrison and does not pose a threat to the koinon. However, Pontos does and their clever attack through the Chersonesos Thraikia managed to reach Pella, not far from the heart of our beloved Koinon itself! We laid dormant when both Sinope and Byzantion fell to these persian-imitating bastards, and I'd be damned by Athena herself if I did not propose action. Therefore:

I propose that the army, the veterans who just fought the pontics at Pella, marches eastwards and lay siege to Byzantion.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Greenlizard0.]

Has Green Lizard been bought by the pontic princes perhaps, or is it genuine cowardice we see on display? The seleukids has been broken with the loss of Sardis, Ipsos is protected by but a small garrison and does not pose a threat to the koinon. However, Pontos does and their clever attack through the Chersonesos Thraikia managed to reach Pella, not far from the heart of our beloved Koinon itself! We laid dormant when both Sinope and Byzantion fell to these persian-imitating bastards, and I'd be damned by Athena herself if I did not propose action. Therefore:



I was just trying to be careful, perhaps a little too much. Yet I stil stand for my proposals, so we can concentrate fully on Pontos, without that small stronghold in between.


[I]]

I propose that the army, the veterans who just fought the pontics at Pella, marches eastwards and lay siege to Byzantion.


Isn't that a Spartan army and a aliance army? We can't command them, we have no Strategos. (Although, the Spartans will attack Byzantion, I think). If you meaned that reserve army we lend to them, you should make a motion to get them out of Spartan command.

Besides, Ipsos and Nikaia may mean no treat to our cities, but taking them would not do dammage our position either. And these might be necessary if we want to attack their homelands.

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Athenians, I come bearing news from the Gerousia. I would like to ask if Athenai would be willing to attack the treacherous Pontiacs in Bithynia. I am fairly certain that the Gerousia will pass a motion to liberate Byzantion, however we will just be bogged down there and unable to defend Hellas' Northern border due to inevitable Poniac attacks on Byzantion. If Nikomedia could be taken and Bithynia wrested from their control, then Byzantion would be much more secure. Now, under normal circumstaces we Spartiate would simply take Nikomedia ourselves, however Arthouros the Divider's law forbids Spartiate entrance to Mikra Asia. Therefore, only Athenai can take Nikomedia. I therefore humbly ask if you would be willing to hold off on your plans to liberate Halikarnassos for a year in order to defeat Pontos in Bithynia.

Our Spartan friend speaks sense, much sense. I PROPOSE that we Athenians leave a suitable garrison in Sardis and march upon Nikaia. I PROPOSE also that we send a team of saboteurs and scouts to infiltrate Sinope, destroying Pontic infrastructure therein. I believe that if we may cause enough unrest we may bring about a rebellion among our allies there. The Seleucids are weak upon our borders right now, weaker than I expected, and this latest act of aggression by Pontos cannot be left unanswered.

[Populus Romanus]

Green Lizard is a socialist?! To the Pit of Death with ye!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

What did socialists kill your parents or something?

:rolleyes:

[Populus Romanus]

What did socialists kill your parents or something?

:rolleyes:Yes.
Not really, of course!
All socialists must DIE! Those Phoinikoi are socialists--DEATH! Those Seleukeis are socialists--DEATH! Hellenes are capitalists--LIFE! Romanoi are capitalists--LIFE!
But really, socialism sucks. Just outright sucks.But wait: are you a socialist?:inquisitive:


@Leumenes: You have a blackberry? I'm sooo jealous.

[Molinaargh]

Please do not go that much off-topic in this thread.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Yes. Though do not do the 'oh-so-common' American analogy of Socialism = Communism = Dictatorship; that's very old hat. Personally I am an Anarchist - Freedom under responsibility (responsibility of the individual), which means that I unlike a *cough* 'liberal' or 'conservative' am distrustful to both governments and corporations regarding their reach and power. In regards of party politics I am a Social Democrat, which means that I do not support planned economy.

And yes, let's end this off-topic derailing.


https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/rich2.jpg

[Populus Romanus]

To slightly redeem myself, I will point out this to the Boule: If you are going to go into the business of breaking Pontos, look at the strength of all their garrisons. All three that we can see are very, very weak. Byzantion is weak. Nikaia is weak. And Ankyra is weak. This means that we could potentially cripple Pontos in a similar lightning strike assault to the opening of the Epeirote Wars, where we almost annihlated them in one year. Theoretically, we could render Pontos completely invalid in a year or two. Not that to attack Ankyra, one would first have to take Ipsos. Fortunately for us, the garrison of Ipsos is also a paltry force! The time is right to strike at the heart of Mikra Asia, men of Athenai!

[jirisys]

Yes.
Not really, of course!
All socialists must DIE! Those Phoinikoi are socialists--DEATH! Those Seleukeis are socialists--DEATH! Hellenes are capitalists--LIFE! Romanoi are capitalists--LIFE!
But really, socialism sucks. Just outright sucks.But wait: are you a socialist?:inquisitive:


@Leumenes: You have a blackberry? I'm sooo jealous.

I'm too, I don't like my capitalistic consumeristic life, and agree on some points of Arthourous... And yet you wonder why we made the "party of the united and free men of hellas" :laugh4: :tongue:


Yes. Though do not do the 'oh-so-common' American analogy of Socialism = Communism = Dictatorship; that's very old hat. Personally I am an Anarchist - Freedom under responsibility (responsibility of the individual), which means that I unlike a *cough* 'liberal' or 'conservative' am distrustful to both governments and corporations regarding their reach and power. In regards of party politics I am a Social Democrat, which means that I do not support planned economy.

And yes, let's end this off-topic derailing.


https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/rich2.jpg

Pretty much so...

Chremonides, age 7 will join the boule in only 9 years.

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

I would also like to point out that you (Athenai) may want to check out the political situation of Asia. You have a quite adequate network of spies reporting on the affairs of Mikra Asia, however just beyond that frontier we have no intelligence whatsoever. We must find out the situation in the interior. Who is winning the epic Wars of the Diadochi? Who controls Syria, Our Seleukid enemies or our Ptolemaioi allies? We must know this in order to predict the behavior of the Seleukeis. If they are winning against the Ptolemaioi, then we can expect a lot of trouble if we snatch a few of their Mikra Asian possessions. However, if they are losing then we can expand (relatively) safely in that direction. This is key inteligence we are lacking, men of Athenai!

[Paltmull]

Hey, I don't have time to participate much right now, but remember that The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (RZIEPAS?) states that Byzantion shall be neutral.

[Populus Romanus]

Hey, I don't have time to participate much right now, but remember that The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (RZIEPAS?) states that Byzantion shall be neutral.Yes, however the Stratia ton Sparte can still conquer it as long as A) the Stratia ton Koinon is accompanying it or B) it is decared to be a neutral polis. I believe that is the course of action we will take if the motion to conquer Byzantion is passed.

@Leumenes: Nikolas Classis (aka ArtoriusRex) has requested that I send you greetings on his behalf.

"I have received scrolls from the Athenian Council, and I have heard of Leumenes' return to public life. I was not aware he had moved to Lakedomia, or that his son is in the Agoge,as soon as I return I shall make a point of it to speak to the boy. If you wouldn't mind Apius, as I am in Syracuse, would you please offer my congratulations and greetings to Leumenes in the Boule, and please invite him back to Sparta, it has been a while since we have had him here, and his advice has been, in recent years, just and beneficial to all free Greeks. Also, there is still the small matter that we only have a single envoy from Athens to Sparta, Arthourous, it would please me if we had yet another Athenian, though I suppose we must consider him Spartan now, here in Council. That and Leumenes always makes the situation a little more... interesting.



Nikolas Classis Chief Officer of the King's Bodyguard"

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Our Spartan friend speaks sense, much sense. I PROPOSE that we Athenians leave a suitable garrison in Sardis and march upon Nikaia. I PROPOSE also that we send a team of saboteurs and scouts to infiltrate Sinope, destroying Pontic infrastructure therein. I believe that if we may cause enough unrest we may bring about a rebellion among our allies there. The Seleucids are weak upon our borders right now, weaker than I expected, and this latest act of aggression by Pontos cannot be left unanswered.

I AGREE to these proposals.

I PROPOSE that we make Nikaia a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV), Nikaia is not to be neutral.

I PROPOSE that when/if we take Ipsos, it shall be neutral in inter-koinon politics.

I PROPOSE that we expand the military barracks in Pergamon, so that we do not have to recruit all reinforcements to our Mikra Asia Stratia in Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we recruit two units of the best Pergamon has to offer.

I PROPOSE that we expand the trade docks in Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we expand the trade docks in Rhodes.

I PROPOSE that we raise a fleet of Triereis in Rhodes. This fleet shall stay under our command.

I PROPOSE that we make contact with Hayasdan and begin trading with them.

I PROPOSE that we send a spy to the Levant to update us on the situation there.


@Molinaargh, what is the population of Athenai and Sparte respectively?

also regarding:

https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/1Trsp.jpg

Is the three squares the base tension between Athenai and Sparte or can it go down further?

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I AGREE to these proposals.

I PROPOSE that we make Nikaia a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV), Nikaia is not to be neutral.

I PROPOSE that when/if we take Ipsos, it shall be neutral in inter-koinon politics.

I PROPOSE that we expand the military barracks in Pergamon, so that we do not have to recruit all reinforcements to our Mikra Asia Stratia in Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we recruit two units of the best Pergamon has to offer.

I PROPOSE that we expand the trade docks in Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we I expand the trade docks in Rhodes.

I PROPOSE that we raise a fleet of Triereis in Rhodes. This fleet shall stay under our command.

I PROPOSE that we make contact with Hayasdan and begin trading with them.

I PROPOSE that we send a spy to the Levant to update us on the situation there.


@Molinaargh, what is the population of Athenai and Sparte respectively?

also regarding:

https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/1Trsp.jpg

Is the three squares the base tension between Athenai and Sparte or can it go down further?

I AGREE with all of Arthouros' proposals.

[Molinaargh]

Is the three squares the base tension between Athenai and Sparte or can it go down further?
It can go down further.

This session is now over, thanks everyone.

Imageshack seems to be imploding (frozen frog images), so I have no idea how I'll make the next update.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Try: https://photobucket.com/, works for me. :idea2:

[Molinaargh]

251 BC


Athenian motions:
(Yes)-Attack Ipsos.
(Not yet)-Leave a suitable garrison in Sardis and march upon Nikaia.
(Not yet)-Make Nikaia a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV), Nikaia is not to be neutral.
(Yes)-Expand the military barracks in Pergamon, so that we do not have to recruit all reinforcements to our Mikra Asia Stratia in Athenai.
(Yes)-Recruit two units of the best Pergamon has to offer.
(Impossible)-Expand the trade docks in Athenai and Rhodos.
(Yes)-Raise a fleet of Triereis in Rhodes. This fleet shall stay under our command.
(Yes)-Make contact with Hayasdan and begin trading with them.
(Yes)-Send a spy to the Levant to update us on the situation there.
(On the way)-Send a team of saboteurs and scouts to infiltrate Sinope, destroying Pontic infrastructure therein.

Spartan motions:
(Yes)-Immediately assault Syrokousai.
(Yes)-March the Stratia ton Koinon and the Sparte Reserve Army on Byzantion.
(Already is)-Send the Fleet of the Koinon to blockade the Straight of Messana.
(Yes)-Train two units of Thorakitai Hoplitai and send the lot to reinforce the weakened Sparte Reserve Army.
(Yes)-Call for reinforcements for the Alliance Army, including from Athenai, although not exclusively (as that would make no sense).


The Sieges of Syrakousai and Ipsos




By the beginning of 251 BC, the Spartan Kings immediatly assaulted Syrakousai as advised by their council.

https://i.imgur.com/1w7mp.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/DFbgU.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/7LlFD.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/FhXv6.jpg

Part of the population was dispersed around the Koinon to avoid revolts in Syrakousai.

https://i.imgur.com/tJbW7.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/bx9CW.jpg

The poleis or Rhodos and Athenai benefited the most from the great masses of refugees.

https://i.imgur.com/yqu7R.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/QdGwe.jpg

At this point, our census indicated that these were the top 5 most populous cities of the Koinon:

https://i.imgur.com/BSPsv.jpg

And these were the bottom 5:

https://i.imgur.com/1jqle.jpg

Our scouts reported that the egyptians had made some territorial conquests in the levant during their last war with the Seleukids, including the polis of Antiocheia!

https://i.imgur.com/DmE2L.jpg

In Rhodos a fleet of Triereis was built as per orders of the Athenian assembly.

https://i.imgur.com/WwyMy.jpg

Poublios also had orders. He was to besiege Ipsos, but first he had to fight his way there.

https://i.imgur.com/0lklo.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/cf5SO.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/Fl9hh.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/GINJU.jpg

The polis was besieged and assaulted only 3 months later.

https://i.imgur.com/l1Lpq.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/gQe3X.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/bGpwk.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/nqvvq.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/1FM36.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/D9b9V.jpg

The government of the city was yet to be decided, but Periklymenos Naxios, a local of Ionia, knowledgeable of Mikra Asia, was an enthusiastic candidate for Tyrannos of Ipsos.

https://i.imgur.com/cgB8h.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/GU4r3.jpg

Further East, our scouts reported the location of the Pontic Royal Army, close to the enemy's capital. It has so far taken a defensive stance.

https://i.imgur.com/CjFUi.jpg

It is a formidable force composed of many elite soldiers, and a great Koinon Stratia would be necessary to defeat it.

https://i.imgur.com/vF0cK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KGdKr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TJhUp.jpg

In Pergamon, barracks were built exactly for that purpose.

https://i.imgur.com/usP3p.jpg

The current Koinon Army wasn't much of a giant, but it was good enough to advance towards Byzantion...

https://i.imgur.com/rTH4d.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/ZQVCe.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/BfjuO.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/xeAkO.jpg

...and besiege it.

https://i.imgur.com/nmFut.jpg

The Hai were contacted in the East and trade between us was established.

https://i.imgur.com/Sm0TL.jpg

In the northern frontier, the Getai sent an allied army to protect Serdike while we campaigned in Byzantion. It has so far been loyally defending the settlement and the fort, but barbarians can never be trusted.

https://i.imgur.com/M4Pxi.jpg

The Kart-hadast attempted an attack against the sicilian city of Messana, but were forced to retreat. Their forces are now weakened in Sikilia.

https://i.imgur.com/Nd6GS.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/EkvDU.jpg

In the Eastern front, Byzantion remains under siege while Pontic and Seleukid armies threaten our borders.

https://i.imgur.com/6w8aM.jpg

With the recent conquest of Syrakousai in the West and the conquests of Sardis and Ipsos in the East, the situation between the hegemonic poleis has become more difficult. On paper some of the conquered poleis are supposedly neutral, but it is clear now that the eastern poleis begin to gravitate towards Athenian influence while the western ones group around Sparte.

https://i.imgur.com/QrEPU.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/lJXHI.png
Polis session open!

[diomede]

@ Molinaargh: My respects to you and this great AAR, please do not view me transferring my confusion from one forum to another as a slight on you.

@ Athenians:

High Priest of Zeus, Diomede rides into Athens at a feverish pace, not stopping for food, not rest, not even to pass bodily fluids, instead electing to do so while on the move. Taking advantage of his contacts and the monestary's wealth, he swiftly changes exhausted horse after horse, somehow shaving an entire day off the arduous journey from Sparte.

Exhausted, he appears among his Athenian peers; the speaker takes pity on him and allows him to interrupt the current discussion and flow of events.

"Athenians", he wheazs, " I note a great deal of unrest among the peoples of the Koinon Hellenon. The omens are bleak, the portents of sacrifice forbidding. I see a shameful end to our alliance, embraced in blood of Makedonians, shattered in the embrace of each others. How do we stop this? What is to be done? Moreover, why have we reached such a catastrophic prelude?

It appears that the gods conspire against us. I do not know why, for I pray daily, as do the many among us, but they seem to have forsaken us. The poisonous nature of the Sparte Nationalist Party and the Arche Athenia seems to be taking hold, twisting, bending facts, making friendship appear to be rivalry, making rivalry appear to be false friendship causing yet more anguish and pain in the long run.


Athenians, allow me to propose the following, in preparation for the next Koinon Hellenon Elections.


Following the law of Arthouros the Divider, allow me to propose that:

Any conquest, under this law's proposal, shall not effect civil unrest within either party as it has already been agreed to;
that, to ensure the above remains true, the Alliance Army remains in maindland Hellas to protect and serve, and to act as a vital pivot in which Spartan and Athenian interests can act without worry for the homeland;
that, as an exception to the above, the Alliance Army may act further affeild providing there is an adequate military presence within Greece.

I am aware this law can not be properly voted on until the appropriate time. Please provide supportive comments that improve this law to an extent that you may vote in favour of it. If you refuse to vote in favouur of it at all, regardless of the shape it finally takes... well, I hope you enjoy your death at the hands of a fellow Athenian during civil war.

[Paltmull]

OOC: I'm probably gonna get flamed for this: I know that most people like the way the civil war meter works, but I really don't understand it. Arthuros' dividing law was made to avoid conflicts. Also, as there are still quite a lot of threats towards Greece, such as Pontos and the Getai (?) and as both Athens and Sparta are busy fighting their separate wars, I don't really think it makes sense that a civil war would suddenly break out. Furthermore and most importantly, if no member of either council wants a civil war; why would there be one? Shouldn't a civil war begin when (if) one of the councils decide to declare war? It just seems weird to me that some kind of magic meter should decide our foreign policies.

I hope this didn't sound rude or anything. I really like this AAR, but I just don't understand this particular feature.

[Populus Romanus]

Still no proposals eh? :no:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Still proposals eh? :no:

I believe you missed a 'No' there friend. :P


I PROPOSE that we raise a Second Athenian Stratia, comprised of proffesional troops and place Periklymenos Naxios as its commander.

I PROPOSE that when fully recruited this army is to take Nikaia from Pontos.

I PROPOSE that we expand the theatron in Athenai.

I PROPOSE that we build a theatron in Rhodes, to keep the inhabitants entertained.

I PROPOSE that we make contact with the Pahlava and begin trading with them.

[diomede]

OOC: I'm probably gonna get flamed for this: I know that most people like the way the civil war meter works, but I really don't understand it. Arthuros' dividing law was made to avoid conflicts. Also, as there are still quite a lot of threats towards Greece, such as Pontos and the Getai (?) and as both Athens and Sparta are busy fighting their separate wars, I don't really think it makes sense that a civil war would suddenly break out. Furthermore and most importantly, if no member of either council wants a civil war; why would there be one? Shouldn't a civil war begin when (if) one of the councils decide to declare war? It just seems weird to me that some kind of magic meter should decide our foreign policies.

I hope this didn't sound rude or anything. I really like this AAR, but I just don't understand this particular feature.

I partially agree with this. What I find most disconcerting is that the majority of the increases and decreases take me and (I think, at least) most of the rest of us off guard. I do like the feature, but it is definitely confusing.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

High Priest of Zeus, Diomede rides into Athens at a feverish pace, not stopping for food, not rest, not even to pass bodily fluids, instead electing to do so while on the move. Taking advantage of his contacts and the monestary's wealth, he swiftly changes exhausted horse after horse, somehow shaving an entire day off the arduous journey from Sparte.

Exhausted, he appears among his Athenian peers; the speaker takes pity on him and allows him to interrupt the current discussion and flow of events.

"Athenians", he wheazs, " I note a great deal of unrest among the peoples of the Koinon Hellenon. The omens are bleak, the portents of sacrifice forbidding. I see a shameful end to our alliance, embraced in blood of Makedonians, shattered in the embrace of each others. How do we stop this? What is to be done? Moreover, why have we reached such a catastrophic prelude?

It appears that the gods conspire against us. I do not know why, for I pray daily, as do the many among us, but they seem to have forsaken us. The poisonous nature of the Sparte Nationalist Party and the Arche Athenia seems to be taking hold, twisting, bending facts, making friendship appear to be rivalry, making rivalry appear to be false friendship causing yet more anguish and pain in the long run.


Athenians, allow me to propose the following, in preparation for the next Koinon Hellenon Elections.


Following the law of Arthouros the Divider, allow me to propose that:

Any conquest, under this law's proposal, shall not effect civil unrest within either party as it has already been agreed to;
that, to ensure the above remains true, the Alliance Army remains in maindland Hellas to protect and serve, and to act as a vital pivot in which Spartan and Athenian interests can act without worry for the homeland;
that, as an exception to the above, the Alliance Army may act further affeild providing there is an adequate military presence within Greece.

I am aware this law can not be properly voted on until the appropriate time. Please provide supportive comments that improve this law to an extent that you may vote in favour of it. If you refuse to vote in favouur of it at all, regardless of the shape it finally takes... well, I hope you enjoy your death at the hands of a fellow Athenian during civil war.

"Fellow Athenoi, this proposal is very wise indeed, and something that will surely only be of benefit to us all, both Spartans and Athenians.
Therefore I support this law amendment and advice you all to do the same, for the good of the Koinon Hellenon."

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I PROPOSE that we actively try to piss off the inhabitants of Sardis and Ipsos so that they are no longer aligned towards us, Poublious shall insult them, calling them Barbaroi and claim that they have no honour, so that the Civil War metre goes down. At the same time these poleis shall not align towards Sparte, if they attempt doing so then we will claim that the Spartiatai also view them as weaklings and women in disguise. Which shall force them to become neutral in inter-koinon politics, whether they like it or not.

I PROPOSE that we expand the trading docks in Kydonia

I PROPOSE that we send scouts to search for any large Seleucid force in Mikra Asia.

[The_Blacksmith]

I AGREE with Arthouros Attike's motions

[Molinaargh]

Originally posted at TWC:

I don't really like discussing technical stuff, but it seems necessary right now. I might as well explain myself since you are the authors of this AAR as much as I am.

The reason for the somewhat forced build-up to a civil war (a couple of swords moved in an image! :tongue:) is that the AAR has lost pace. Especially in the Athenai thread.

There isn't enough interest to maintain both threads. If you go through this thread you'll see I added many "features" and so on to keep things fresh: the parties, the polis influences, history, artwork, character info, a hall of fame, the civil war meter and so on. I acknowledge that this AAR relies on gimmicks rather than solid writing. But they're really fun gimmicks.

But now the updates are getting repetitive and the Athenai thread is dying.

How to solve this?

We need a new gimmick. One that will give a respectable ending to the Athenai thread while it's still alive. The most logical one I can think of is the civil war.

Since this AAR has always been as interactive as possible, I haven't decided our future alone. I am leaning towards the civil war, so I only just started the build-up for that.

In short, the Athenian thread can't keep up for long, and I think we should give the "two thread system" the ending it deserves with its climax, a new Peloponnesian War. Soon.

Then we can move on. A civil war wouldn't be the final frontier for this AAR. A sequel could begin after that, depicting the new state of the Koinon Hellenon - or whatever it becomes after the war. Although it seems clear to me that whatever is the outcome, the two threads system should be replaced by a single thread at TWCenter.

Your opinions on this matter are welcome. :smiley:

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Demosthenes approached the floor looking pale, drawn and tired.

"My fellow Athenians, I...I have not slept much these last few days. As you know I have been an ardent proponent of this Koinon of ours. I have been troubled by dreams....visions. Messages from the Gods, I believe. I sense that peace between ourselves and Sparte is.... unsustainable. I have a dark foreboding that Athens is to be made merely an extension of Spartan domination."

Demosthenes stumbles a bit and steadies himself.

"I am ill with this...dread. I have worked some twenty years for the success of this alliance and what i feel I must now propose....it is like I have offered the life of my own son to the Gods. At the moment, good men of Athens, we hold political and military sway within the Koinon. We must, I feel, shore up our position against impending Spartan aggression. It is coming..., though we try hard to avoid it, the old suspicions persist. Perhaps already I have said too much but....I cannot bring myself to say what I feel I must..."

and with that, Demosthenes slumped into the nearest seat, a spent and dejected figure.

[Tyrfingr]

Rhobrios takes the stand:

Demosthenes speaks the thruth, the balance between Sparta and Athens is slipping out of our favour. Many times have I proposed action in this chambers, only to be hushed by voices of false comfort, fueled by spartan gold! As history has shown us, a greek league dominated by Sparta is doomed to fail and the false spartans will seek foreign assistance as soon as they realise this, syrians, persians and the gods know what foul people will come to their aid. None the less, the spartans are dependent on our ships and sailors to fuel their ambitions in the west and I say no more! Therefore:

I propose that no ship of Athenian origin, constructed in the docks of Athena or an athenian-aligned city, shall transport soldiers or diplomats of Sparta.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Greenlizard0.]

I couldn't get online the last few days, yet it seems that activity is slowing down here.




I PROPOSE that we expand the trading docks in Kydonia

I PROPOSE that we send scouts to search for any large Seleucid force in Mikra Asia.

I PROPOSE that we raise a Second Athenian Stratia, comprised of proffesional troops and place Periklymenos Naxios as its commander.

I PROPOSE that when fully recruited this army is to take Nikaia from Pontos.

I PROPOSE that we build a theatron in Rhodes, to keep the inhabitants entertained.

I PROPOSE that we make contact with the Pahlava and begin trading with them.


Agreed with these proposals.

I would like to propose to build more buildings to expand our population Athens (expanding our city).

I also propose to scout more of the developments of the newly gainned Ptolemaic cities in Syria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please, Molinarch, go on with this AAR. It has been very amusing so far and perhaps we can let the Athenian counsil survive.

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Molinaargh]

This session is now over, thanks everyone.

[Molinaargh]

250 BC


Motions:

Athenian motions:
(Yes)-Raise a Second Athenian Stratia, comprised of proffesional troops and place Periklymenos Naxios as its commander.
(Not yet)-When fully recruited this army is to take Nikaia from Pontos.
(Already maxed, Local Festival built instead)-Expand the theatron in Athenai.
(City expansion under construction)-Build a theatron in Rhodes, to keep the inhabitants entertained.
(Too far)-Make contact with the Pahlava and begin trading with them.
(Impossible, sanitarizaion expanded instead)-Expand the trading docks in Kydonia
(Yes, none found)-Send scouts to search for any large Seleucid force in Mikra Asia.

Spartan motions:
(Yes)-Assault Byzantion immediately, but then do not recall the Stratia ton Koinon to Pella. There are two Poniac half stacks in Bithynia that potentially recapture Byzantion if we leave it unguarded for a moment.
(Yes)-Beseige Lilibeo.
(Yes, Meton is on his way)-Put a governor in Sparte so that we can benefit from the refugees from Syrokousai.
(Barracks not finished yet)-Recruit elite spartan hoplites in Sparte.



Conquest of Byzantion





Agis immediatly assaulted Byzantion as the Spartan Council had ordered.

https://i.imgur.com/myJqG.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/pNmOP.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/9q5aX.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/3Os2y.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/LpD1r.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/OuKej.jpg

During the siege he showed improvement in the art of leading men to their deaths.

https://i.imgur.com/tVZ23.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/0Y5Ht.jpg

A flank commander, Meton of Korinthos, showed great valor in battle and was chosen as the second-in-comand of Agis.

https://i.imgur.com/z0p8i.jpg

Back in Athenai, Doros had a son, Zeuxis. His birth made the former Strategos remember how much he wanted to be in the battlefield rather than stuck in Athenai.

https://i.imgur.com/3CvzV.jpg

In Sikilia, the carthaginians trespassed our borders with potentially hostile intentions.

https://i.imgur.com/0Vyyq.jpg

This was more than enough to cause a war, which had enough support in the Spartan Council.

https://i.imgur.com/2GK66.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/9q8M4.jpg

The Spartans and Syracusans marched and fought together.

https://i.imgur.com/n8Mfm.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/oYxX6.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/0HTxX.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/xLPR0.jpg

After that victory, Eudamidas ordered the city of Lilibeo to be placed under siege. It remains so until this moment.

https://i.imgur.com/qqZu3.jpg

Back home, in Sparte, the first daughter of Akrotatos married Azeus Asiates.

https://i.imgur.com/f0DQi.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/r8WsV.jpg

All remained quiet in the East after the conquest of Byzantion by Agis, as he and the Alliance Army remained there to defend the settlement.

https://i.imgur.com/F9wYX.jpg

In Athenai, a large army gathered during the year, to be commanded, as the Athenian assembly ordered, by Periklymenos Naxios.

https://i.imgur.com/r7YRq.jpg

And, finally, the situation of Sikilia:

https://i.imgur.com/o6mBY.jpg

The Koinon has had many great successes the past 22 years:

https://i.imgur.com/2UCb6.jpg

This is a full list of our Stratoi and their Strategoi:

https://i.imgur.com/InBY1.jpg

The north is pacified, as the former Epeirote generals have given up on the Epeirote throne and decided to rule their northern barbarians. The Getai tribes are our loyal allies.

In Anatolia, the Seleukids have given up on their western asian poleis, prefering to send only scouting parties to make sure the Koinon makes no further advances. Pontos should quickly sign a peace treaty if they lose Nikaia.

It is also believed that the Carthaginians will recognize hellenic rule of Sikilia once Lilibeo is taken.



https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Koinon Elections will begin s-- Doros, what are you doing here?


https://i.imgur.com/TwhBj.jpg

I am here to deliver my demands to this assembly. I apologize if I may sound rude. Actually, wait. I don't.

I have a stratia in this polis that will answer to me, the former Strategos of the Koinon and governor of Athenai, not some no-name ionios you appointed.

Now, listen to me. I must be elected as the rightful Strategos Autokrator in the upcoming elections. You will nominate me, and I will make sure I win the elections. By any means necessary.

[Molinaargh]

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9227/electionsa.jpg

Offices:

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6361/officesonlyb260.jpg


Candidates:


https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png Spartans:



https://i.imgur.com/CtwF8.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/kdyNY.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/XSS9f.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/9F6rj.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/8mHbU.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/RYwfp.jpg



https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png Athenians:



https://i.imgur.com/nQrSe.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/VKcg2.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/Qb8SS.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/CUIJV.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/F7ZK4.jpg



Nominate a candidate from your polis to the position of Strategos and another to the office of Hegemon.

[Biowulf]

I nominate Doros as Strategos and Nikanor for Hegemon! Doros has proved his skill in battle before and is a better commander than Agis. Nikanor is our best governor after Doros.

[Tyrfingr]

I as well nominate Doros as Strategos and Nikanor for Hegemon, these are both honourable men who honours Athena and the greek cause in the east!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I nominate Doros as Strategos and Nikanor for Hegemon! Doros has proved his skill in battle before and is a better commander than Agis. Nikanor is our best governor after Doros.

I support this nomination. In addition I resign as party leader of the Hellas Party and nominate Greenlizard0. for Prytanis and Epistates.

[Greenlizard0.]

I support this nomination. In addition I resign as party leader of the Hellas
Party and nominate Greenlizard0. for Prytanis and Epistates.

Are you going to stop completely? Or do you just resign those titles? It would be a pity if you leave. You've done great in this AAR.

My support also goes to Doros as Strategos and Nikator as Hegemon.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May we already make new propositions?

It seems Doros is getting a bit restless. Therefore I would like to propose to send him to Nikaia to liberate the Greeks there.

I also propose to let that polis neutral in the politics, so that we build a independed kingdom, inside the Koinon.

Another motion I would like to make is to let Ziaelas of Bithynia (the son of the last ruler, that was called Nicomedes) rule the city.

(This, in order to stop the increasing tensions between Sparta and Athenia).

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Are you going to stop completely? Or do you just resign those titles? It would be a pity if you leave. You've done great in this AAR.


No, no, I'll just resign as Pryanis and Epistates. This because I've been Prytanis two "terms" (i.e. ingame 10 years) and Leumenes was Prytanis for two terms before I replaced him. So it's a unspoken rule of sorts that we (in the Hellas Party) only stay as Prytanis for two terms each, before nominating another member. After being replaced for two terms one may nominate oneself (or be nominated by another member/the Prytanis) again.



May we already make new propositions?


Technically yes, but it's best if we wait until after the Koinon Elections, considering we don't know who will be Strategos (or Hegemon).


It seems Doros is getting a bit restless. Therefore I would like to propose to send him to Nikaia to liberate the Greeks there.

I also propose to let that polis neutral in the politics, so that we build a independed kingdom, inside the Koinon.

Another motion I would like to make is to let Ziaelas of Bithynia (the son of the last ruler, that was called Nicomedes) rule the city.

(This, in order to stop the increasing tensions between Sparta and Athenia).

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

I'll wait until the Koinon elections until I place my support behind these proposals.


Also could you please join the Hellas Party usergroup? :bow: : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/group.php?groupid=151

[Greenlizard0.]

Also could you please join the Hellas Party usergroup? :bow: : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/group.php?groupid=151

Will do. Hadn't noticed the usergroup.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I as well nominate Doros as Strategos and Nikanor for Hegemon, these are both honourable men who honours Athena and the greek cause in the east!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

I, too, endorse and support these nominations.

[Antinous]

Are we stand here and just watch in a stuper as the Spartans grab lands for themselves? We are letting the Spartans take over Sikilia and turn it into their own playground friends!! How dare they attack the Carthaginians without consulting us others in the Koinon Hellenon! The Carthaginians were a gracious trading partner and now we are at war with a mighty empire that has more power and resources in that sphere of the world than we can send there in five years! I say we should punish the Spartans however you see fit! We cannot stand here and let the Spartans drag us to war with every neighbor we have!!

[Populus Romanus]

We could say the same of you and Seleukeis. And they are just as powerful even more powerful than the Kart-Hadasteis.

I now officially propose the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act.

I could not think of a more convenient time for Arthouros to step down from power. Plus, Arthouros, I have been watching you.:curtain: No more making under the table personal appeals to people to boycott my proposal! Or I'll have yer arse cruscified.:laugh4:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Are we stand here and just watch in a stuper as the Spartans grab lands for themselves? We are letting the Spartans take over Sikilia and turn it into their own playground friends!! How dare they attack the Carthaginians without consulting us others in the Koinon Hellenon! The Carthaginians were a gracious trading partner and now we are at war with a mighty empire that has more power and resources in that sphere of the world than we can send there in five years! I say we should punish the Spartans however you see fit! We cannot stand here and let the Spartans drag us to war with every neighbor we have!!

Answer (sort of):


255 BC: The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (by Arthouros the Divider)
-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.



We could say the same of you and Seleukeis. And they are just as powerful even more powerful than the Kart-Hadasteis.

Indeed my oligarchical friend. I wonder, will you Spartiatai seek peace with Kardhadast after the conquest of Sikilia? It is perhaps best to stay on good terms with at least one of the western powers. Not that it is something that I would ever even think of telling you to do. :P


I now officially propose the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act.

And I now officially DISAGREE with it, and ask of every Athenian to do the same.


I could not think of a more convenient time for Arthouros to step down from power. Plus, Arthouros, I have been watching you.:curtain: No more making under the table personal appeals to people to boycott my proposal! Or I'll have yer arse cruscified.:laugh4:

We'll just have to see about that... :sneaky:

[Tyrfingr]

The "Zones of Interest and Expansion"-act by Arthouros the Divider is up for constant debate in our sessions, eagerly protected by cowards who regard coin more than honour. The act demands Byzantion, perhaps the most important sphere in controlling both trade and military fleets on the the Pontus Euxinus, be neutral in internal affairs and the spartans has been given free hands to claim Silikia and the strategic advantage it has over the western Mediterreaneum. This is unfair if I ever knew it, and must be adressed.

I propose a change in the "Zones of Interest and Expansion"-act, that Byzantion is to be included into the athenian zone of interest.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Tyrfingr]

I now officially propose the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act.

I disagree

[Greenlizard0.]

I now officially propose the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act.

I disagree with this

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

The "Zones of Interest and Expansion"-act by Arthouros the Divider is up for constant debate in our sessions, eagerly protected by cowards who regard coin more than honour. The act demands Byzantion, perhaps the most important sphere in controlling both trade and military fleets on the the Pontus Euxinus, be neutral in internal affairs and the spartans has been given free hands to claim Silikia and the strategic advantage it has over the western Mediterreaneum. This is unfair if I ever knew it, and must be adressed.

I propose a change in the "Zones of Interest and Expansion"-act, that Byzantion is to be included into the athenian zone of interest.

I DISAGREE. In a similar vein as the Spartans have been given free reins to sieze Silkilia, they have withdrawn their previous claims to Mikra Asia, a region where we Athenians have been given free reins.

[Lazy O]

Mind you that the Athenians have been given the Nile Vallley, All of Asia Minor, Syria and Mesapotamia so you just need to get out of your Boy Loverness and start expanding.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Sparta, a Dorian polis, is thought to be the first city to practice athletic nudity, and one of the first to formalize pederasty.[71] The Spartans believed that the love of an older, accomplished aristocrat for an adolescent was essential to his formation as a free citizen. The agoge, the education of the ruling class, was thus founded on pederastic relationships required of each citizen.

:wink:

[Tyrfingr]

Mind you that the Athenians have been given the Nile Vallley, All of Asia Minor, Syria and Mesapotamia so you just need to get out of your Boy Loverness and start expanding.

Perhaps our friend does not know what gynaikonomos means. It is however clear that the spartans by their acts in the west are threathening the prosperity of our entire league, as carthiginian ports are now closed for our athenian merchants and their goods confiscated, the same merchants that we build our wealth on.

I still propose, or rather, demand that Byzantion will be included in the athenian zone of interest, as compensation for the broken trade treaties with Carthage.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Populus Romanus]

We'll just have to see about that... :sneaky:He's corrupt! KILL HIM!

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"What is at work here? We have welcomed Spartan emissaries into our council with open arms, and now they think themselves owners of it. You have insulted our Epistates and think to castigate us for bringing war upon our state by our actions....as if there is some equality between our actions in Asia and yours in the Mediterannean. Pah!

We were always to be at war with that Persian-Makedon abomination, it was only a matter of time. Our intent, in this council, was to aid our natural allies in the East and to detain by such action the inevitable. Nikanor acted against this council's wishes in taking Pergamon, a free polis. I note that such sentiment is somewhat lacking within Spartan debate, or so it seems from here.

We were never likely to be in conflict with Carthage, a significant and extensive part of our trading network...the source of the wealth that you seem keen to appropriate for Spartan ambition. That ambition is as naked as the boys and, I have heard tell, women who flaunt their wares whilst ...'exercising'. You would besiege and take the free polis of Syrakousi without a second thought, in the name of Spartan glory. How long before you are at our walls? Are our freedoms worth as little as theirs? Or Thermon, who you were so keen to precipitate war with...on the vaguest of pretexts.

Your Treasury Management Act is an act of aggression. You seek our wealth to fuel your empire. An equal share of the wealth our traders bring to us, whilst you undermine the basis of it by your actions? How long will just an equal share suffice?

Many years ago, now, I stood before your council and offered peace between us. I thought as a Hellene, and believed that you would also. Now I grow weary of being lectured on our behaviour by a State that does not concern itself with the freedom of a place, only what it can grab from it. I am angered that a people ruled by Kings think to wag their finger at those of us free men who rule ourselves, even decrying those the Gods and free men of this city have elevated to our highest offices.

We offer and desire peace and alliance, a burgeoning of Hellenic influence. You in your stead offer us insults, demands, conquest and war. Are you, Sparte, Makedon in disguise?"

[Antinous]

The Spartans may have claims over Sikilia, but if your friends had their own Kingdom there would you let them be slaughtered by the Spartans? The worst offense I say is that they never asked us Athenians. Think about it, we made a decent amount of money from trading witht he Carthaginians and now we pay them with the bodies of our young men! What the Spartans should have done is to negotiate first with the Carthaginians and consult us in Athens. We don't need to be dragged into more wars with Pontos, the Selukids, and potentially the Romanioi coming down the coast of Magna Graecia. We need money not war.

[Populus Romanus]

Quite a few idiotic councilors. The Treasury Managment Act as an act of aggression? Really. How the heck is the TMA trying to steal your money?:no:

And why are you complaining about us not asking you to go to war with the Phoinikioi? In case you didn't remember, you attacked the Arche Seleukeia without asking us. And not only that, but you knew full well we were going to go to war with the Phoinikioi. Arthouros spends as much time in Sparte as he does in Athenai. We have been preparing for this war for years, to insenuate that you "didn't know" is complete madness, and most likely your attempting to find a pretext for an unprovoked civil war.

[jirisys]

Leumenes has spoken.

Let us heed his advice

Hahah, nice one

~Jirisys (:laugh4:)

[Populus Romanus]

...

Leumenes has spoken.

Let us heed his advice

[jirisys]

Some music to accompany this lecture, I recommend you listen to it while you read this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elERNFoEf3Y

Leumenes came to the boule. It was years he had not appeared at all, he was in Sparte, supervising his nine year old son's agoge and taking care of his wife there.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/223/502262977_5de3201765_m.jpgThe farmlands were vast, filled with slaves, whom he had friended with, having his time telling them and their sons his tales about the boule and his military adventures on foreign lands.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=528639330864&id=e835803471604598bd694c033a5c9ec8He was 38 now, there were slight hints of white threads on his hair, long and tousled as his beard. He told his wife that he was going to Athenai, to see old friends, that she should take care of his son.

http://www.artistsagainstwindfarms.com/images_for_website/kansas/flint-hills-photos/horses-hillss.jpgThe ride was long, as he was not in a hurry. His horse trotting somewhat slowly because he didn't want to tire him too much. He had joined travels with a small herd of horses that followed him trough the pastures and hills, he had taken some walks besides the horse since he let him walk with the herd. The herd left, while his horse, named Boukephalos, for his black color and large head; stayed with his friend.

http://www.chinaoilpainting.com/upload1/file-admin/images/new2/William%20Wendt-564788.jpgHis journey had been long and relaxing, he had no rush to leave the wild he had learned to appreciate. The hills, wondrous and beautifully indescribable, the fields enourmous and soothing, he had taken his lyre and played in the night with it, and some men wandering in the night shouted in flattery, as they were given such great melodies while herding.

http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/721/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_577595.jpgLeumenes was no longer an athenian or a spartan, he had become a man (άνθρωπος), truly one of the firsts to do so. His particular interests in all things which common men think as necessary was simply a pondering in his mind, he had freed himself from the shackles of common life, and had become one with nature. However this would change soon again.

http://www.crystalinks.com/templehepha.gifHe entered Athenai and proceeded to walk down the streets, seeing the statue of Chremonides and that of Arthouros, who it seems had a great run as epistastes. He arrived at the Bouleuterion, below the plaza of the Efaiesteion. He entered the Bouleuterion and saw what his heart could not support. In his absence there had been so many things that he could not even catch up, he saw spartans and athenians waging words like swords, premises of warring, and mutual discomfort between both cities. Everyone was so insulting and offensive that it was not possible he was in the boule. His hopes were suddenly becoming destroyed, piece by piece.

http://www.fullissue.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/PELOPONNESIAN-WARS.jpgHis mind started imagining what he had been taught about the wars between Sparte and Athenai, thousands of greeks killing their own brothers and friends, because of the petty wishes and lust of a few men. What a bloodshed and misery it brought upon, now the boulse is having talks that would likely lead to the same horrendous fate. Truly his life on the city could be coming down easily and steadily.

http://www.wilton.k12.ct.us/whs/whsnet/gabrielsonm/images/upload/dying_warrior.jpgTears flooded his eyes while the same men who once were friends and very good ones, now spouting insults at each other, threatening of bloodshed those same men who once saved the life of many. He could not withstand it, he had once made this happen, and tried to resolve it because he saw what horror were set upon the men on the streets, that their family was to fight their own. The statue of Arthouros was no more a symbol for unison and independence, but one of seclusion and rivalries.

http://greekarcheology.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/ancient-athens-rhetors-politicians.jpg?Now he had to hold his tears in and think wisely. He had to be certain that what he was going to ask of everyone was for the benefit of uniting all the men of greece, wether they are spartan or athenian, rhodian or kretan, corinthian or thessalian. He had to be careful and thoughtful. For his next proposals that he would utter. Could be his lasts.

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

WOW! Nice job, huge post. That must have taken forever to find all those pictures!:dizzy2:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Arthouros was full of shame for this new hostile tone, both in Athenai and in Sparte. As he removed his hands from his face, now no longer the face of an young man, he saw Leumenes. Arthouros was the first to recognize his friend Leumenes, as he entered the Boule, while those around him were busy with petty quarreling. With a smile on his face, he greeted his old friend, laconically, as he presumed that he was used to laconic speech after living so long amongst the Spartans:

"Leumenes! As you most certainly have seen the general political climate is not the same as when you left. Let us work together to at all costs avoid internal conflict between Athenai and Sparte!"

Arthouros was seated.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

@Molinaargh, will/are we be to able to recruit Toxotai Kretikoi in Kydonia?

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"Appius of Sparte, it seems you cannot but be confrontational. You besmirch the honour of our outgoing Epistates, accusing him in some vague way of surreptitious connivance against your bill. You treat opposition to that bill as an act of treason. That bill has not been passed into statute, and if I would have my way it never shall. Not content with that you then accuse the Athenian council of idiocy. Do not become so attached to this idea of giving orders to Athens. Here we are free men, we seek not a King, nor to be the minions of another's King. Your attack on free Syracousi, long in the planning by your own admission, gives me great cause for concern, as does your beratement of our freedoms here.

You ask how your bill might be an act of aggression? Not only would, by your bill, Sparte gain a greater share of the Koinon's wealth than it produces, but in years when a Spartan is Hegemon you would gain control of the greater part of the wealth of the Koinon. You would gain control of greater wealth than those who produced that wealth. And for what? So that you can subject some more free states to Spartan dominion? Already our navies have been used for this..... barbarism, against fellow Hellenes. You think we Athenians so foolish we cannot see theft for what it is? We should create wealth for Sparte to glorify its own city and its army, while we meekly are allowed to spend some of what is left upon our own needs?

You claimed that you went to Sikilia to protect Hellenes from the aggression of the Phoeni, yet Syracousi was under no obligation, nor even immediate threat from them. This had nothing to do with protecting free Hellenes and everything to do with filling Sparte's coffers, as you would like to do with our mnai.

If you delve your hand into my money bag, should I see that as an act of friendship? Is theft not aggression? Perhaps, though, I am forgetting. You are taught to steal, are you not? It is only getting caught that is shameful. Well, we have caught you Appius."

[Populus Romanus]

Well, actually Arthouros visited the home of Leumenes (aka he posted a visitor message) in which he demanded that Leumenes veto the bill.
I didn't say it was treason to oppose the bill! No, for that would be treason! I was only rebutting your arguements.
Still, you have the same hypocrisy as before. You antagonize us over our liberation of Syrakousai, but yet you turn a blind eye to your own attack on Pergamon, who was a stout ally of ours against the Arche Seleukeia. Syrakousai, however, has been transforming Megale Hellas into a barren wasteland with their constant attempt to impose their own tyranny upon it. We had to act, before the Phoinikioi attacked and captured all of Sikilia, dooming tens of thousands of free Hellenes to life of slavery under barbaroi. However, even if Pergamon had fallen, they still will have been ruled by Hellenes! Our liberation of Syrakousai was to protect Hellenes from barbaroi, your attack on Pergamon was to "protect" Hellenes from...other Hellenes.
Your argument for why the Act is agression is dreadful, I must say. You still have not given a reason why it is aggression. Funds should be distributed evenly between Athenai and Sparte. We are one nation, after all. If your suggestion, that funds be divvied out based upon how much either polis earns, is followed, than it would be a recognition that in fact, Athenai and Sparte are two seperate nations, which then means that the Koinon Hellenon does not exist, and is a figment of our imaginations. We are one Koinon, with one treasury, which will be split evenly. And your suggestion that the entire Koinon Hellenon's treasury belongs to you is absolutely disgraceful. It brings shame upon all Hellenes to have one of our own utter such idiocy, especially coming from one of the supposedly "educated" Athenians!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Well, actually Arthouros visited the home of Leumenes (aka he posted a visitor message) in which he demanded that Leumenes veto the bill.

I did not demand that he oppose it, rather I pointed out that if he wanted to do so he should do it before a certain session was over. I also explained briefly why I adviced him to oppose it, and obviously he agreed, as he disagreed to your law proposal. So without further ado, please enjoy your random Sparta related lolcat of the evening:

https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/imagesqtbnANd9GcSlMGIwA4mrUpik-9yR3pDdOE4ECwqoynYT302XwFl54eAvGi1OGQ.jpg


~Arthur

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Demosthenes took the floor

"You have come to this council and demanded of our Epistates that he not discuss the bill you have proposed, on pain of some...anal infliction." He swept his gaze around the council, raising his tone a little

"A Spartan demands what an Athenian may do, on pain of physical punishment. Here, in Athens..."

He looked back at Appius.

"You bring up Pergamon, as if this is some new element I had forgotten to mention. I have addressed this already, but I shall remind you again. Perhaps you would do well to have your helot jot it down, as your memory is so...vague. It was the will of this Council that Pergamon be held free, that it was to be taken only if the Seleukids held it. Nikanor acted against the wishes of this council, and his actions were castigated by many, myself included. As for the Seleucids being Hellenes..... they are Macedons, at best. You were quite happy to treat the Macedons as the enemies of Hellenes, what has changed since those days? Of course, they aren't simply Macedons, they have been tainted with the urges and desires of the East...they stink of Persia. Do not try to equate the aberrant act of one Athenian with the pre-planned aggression of Sparte against Syracousi.

As for Athens and Sparte being one nation.....when did that occur? The Koinon has always been an alliance between our free states. Indeed, that is what Arthouros' bill re-established. And you then go on to suggest that I claimed the Koinon's treasury for Athens. Would you care to point out where I stated such? The Athenian treasury is Athenian. The Spartan treasury is Sparte's. Why should the traders, farmers, smiths...and all of our free men be taxed for the benefit of Sparte? Especially to fund Spartan aggression?

When Sparte spends as much time and effort creating wealth, as it does creating war against Hellenes, then you may come to us and request that our funds be split evenly."

[Populus Romanus]

When you said "my money bag", rather than "our money bag", in an analogy about the nature of the Koinon Hellenon Treasury. And now you deny that the Koinon Hellenon is our nation? You assert that we are not bound together at all, that we are two completely different countries? I am sorry, but that is not the case. However, with assertions like that, it may very well change. If we are two completely seperate nations, then what of the neutral poleis? What of the Stratia ton Koinon? What of the constitution? We are two semiautonomous poleis, but we are one nation just as any other nation is one nation. In fact, if your assertion that we are two different nations finds support among the other Athenian councilors, then Athenai and Sparte will be by default placed in a state of civil war.
And I remain quite happy to treat the Seleukeis as enemies as well! The Makedonioi should be considered Hellenic, they have almost the same culture as our own, albeit with some unsightly barbaroi influences. Although the majority of their subjects are barbaroi, the Seleukeis themselves and much of their army remain Hellenic Makedonioi.

https://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/KingoftheBritons/imagesqtbnANd9GcSlMGIwA4mrUpik-9yR3pDdOE4ECwqoynYT302XwFl54eAvGi1OGQ.jpg
Huh? I don't get it. What the Hades is a "car"?:dizzy2:

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"It is that you demand a handful of Athenian mnai by your bill that I object to, not Koinon mnai. And...in joint matters I have little problem with koinon wealth being spent where it is required. BUT.... I have a problem with the legislation of Athenian funds into Spartan control. THAT is what I perceive as aggression.

As for your bizarre urge to inflict war upon us because I will not accept that we are one state....? We are a Koinon of free poleis. Are we to be subject to Spartan Kings, or are you to overthrow them and become a democracy? I would suggest neither is appropriate, and therefore that we are free and separate states, with our own traditions yet tied by a shared culture and nationality. Hellenes we are, a single Hellenic dominion we are not.

I am pleased that you still perceive the Seleucids as enemies. Remember, though, that we were reacting to Seleucid aggression against Pergamon."

[Populus Romanus]

You are not subject to the Spartiate Kings. Sparte is not subject to the Athenai Boule. Athenai and Sparte are both subject to the Koinon Hellenon's leaders: the Strategos Autokrator, the Hegemon, and the Polemarchos. That is why I described us as semiautonomous. We can make some of our own decisions, but in the end we all must bow before the will of the Koinon Hellenon. For instance: say that one of us dominant poleis decided to do something really stupid, say, send the entire Stratia ton Koinon to attack the Pritanoi. If the entire rest of the Koinon Hellenon said "Absolutely not!", then the dominant polis in question would be forced to refrain from doing whatever stupidity they were planning on doing. That is just one example of how we are all part of one nation, and cannot do whatever the Hades we want to.
Similarly, since we are all one nation, there is no such thing as Athanian mnai or Spartiate mnai, only Koinon mnai, which will be distributed in such a manner as the Koinon sees fit. NOT in such a manner that one self gratifying polis sees fit. There is no putting money under "Spartan control" or "Athenian control", all money is under Koinon Hellenon control and is distributed amongst the dominant poleis as the Koinon Hellenon sees fit. If the Koinon Hellenon were to vote that half the money be allocated to the Gerousai to decide how to spend it, and half the money be allocated to the Boule to decide how to spend it, then that is the way it would be. Heck, if the Koinon Hellenon voted that all the money be gifted to our enemies, then that would be the way it would be.(Even though it is not like that would ever happen:laugh4:!)
As for my "urge to to inflict war": I am merely stating a matter of fact. If Athenai declares that it is a seperate nation, then that is Athenai declaring its secession from the Koinon Hellenon, which would start a civil war. At least, that is how the immortal gods would see it. They have been looking for an excuse for civil war recently... *dun-dun-dun*
Yes, of course I know that the reason war was declared against the Arche Seleukeia was that they attacked Hellenic Pergamon. As for the reason for why Pergamon was attacked...well, that is not the point I am trying to make. What I am trying to say is that we too were responding to aggression against Hellenes. The Phoinikioi attacked the neutral Hellenic polis of Messana. This parallels the Seleukid attack on Pergamon on almost every level. Both Pergamon and Messana were neutral, both Pergamon and Messana were Hellenic, both Pergamon and Messana were not officially part of the Koinon Hellenon, both Pergamon and Messana were attacked by foreign powers who were trade partners of ours, and both Pergamon and Messana recieved the assistance of the Koinon Hellenon against their foes.
Now, I must make the point that the ruling class of Messana is a group of scumbag mercenaries called the Mamertinoi who are not even Hellenes, but barbaroi from the area around Campania who siezed control of the town and murdered most of its citizens. However, most of the inhabitants are Hellenes, so it still is a Hellenic polis. And they can rest assured that they will soon be liberated from the tyrannical grasp of the Mamertinoi.
When one compares the intervention in Pergamon and Syrakousai, one finds that they were identical in circumstances, only the city name and location, the foreign oppressors, and the savior polis could be considered any different.

[jirisys]

Leumenes could not bear it anymore. There were no proposals; no acting measures to be taking, only men shouting and barking like dogs. He knew they were idiotes, that their actians were fruitless and without substance, that even a barbarian can spout insults to another man, but not a single barbaroi could stand firm and speak resolutes and measures. He couldn't resist the thought, the bouleuterion was filled with screaming and uncivilized barbaroi.

He had enough time to gather his mind while the dogs were barking like animals, he decided to silence the whole boule with a single shout: BARBAROI!
To which the whole boule stood in confusion to whom he hath said that, was it to the athenians, to the spartans, to the slaves, was there a barbarian amongst them?
Nobody asked it, and he did not clarify, as he usually said to himself "Ο καθένας είναι ένα βάρβαρο σε κάποιον" (O kathenas einai eva barbaro se kapoion).

"I will not bother you with any fancy talk or any enormously long speech, but try to be brief and blunt. This assembly is nothing more than a dog cage, where each dog will bite each other and kill each other because they want a piece of meat. You are not worthy of being called hellenes. You spout and shout and scream and insult as any getae or sauromates would with each other. There is no proposal for action in your speech, but rather words that even a soldier would not dare to say.
It is time I do something, within my absence, quite a few things have happened, I won't even slightly care for those that alter constitutions or attitudes. I will see what they do to the real world, not the one made by man.
I will make my first proposal, it seems there have been few this year, as barbaroi do not propose, but rather coerce.

I PROPOSE that all cities regain neutrality. Whether it's either of our cities, no city shall take part in the election if it is not a candidate from their polis. That if any man from his polis comes and supports either of us, that he will be the only one, not take the whole city on his back. And, most importantly; that it does not matter who conquered it. If it supports that polis; it will be abandonded and left to it's own; as they need to set free from the shackles of either of our wishes, for they are not our children; but our friends. (All polis are to be neutral, it doesn't matter who conquered it, and no polis has a right to support another, only their motions, and it doesn't matter whose motions). However those conquered by the city themselves may receive orders from the city that holds the basileon; for the military actions, and the hegemon; for the economic actions. And also by the other, as long as it is put in motion in the other's boule.

I cannot stress how important is for us to take this measure; as it has been one of the pillars for our confrotations.

I PROPOSE that the act that divides the conquest regions passed by Arthouros be removed from vigency, as this will encourage massive wars and conquest, when there is truly no need for it. Since we cannot cooperate in another's conquest; and also for us to progress with pan-hellenism, we must wage unnecesary and possibly crumbling wars that will stripe us from our conquests. I did not aprove this motion because I did not know what it would wind into. I am certain his intentions were good in heart, but it was a terrible outcome.

I PROPOSE that; instead of dividing the world in two; we instead have many small jurisdictions, under the command of the city that holds the office of basileos or hegemon. We will call them Eparchies (singular Eparchia). And they will have an independent army, and after having delimited each Eparchia and their Kephalaiou (capital), when we capture it, that the army that did will only stand besides the city until it can both, defend itself, and have an independent army. That way we increase our cooperation, as the Eparchies will need each other to fend off attacks from others, and also decrease our tensions.

I PROPOSE that we refrain as most as we can from conquering non-hellenic cities. We should have united the hellenic world before we start hellenizing those others that do not understand the way of the polis. That said; I will go further.

I also PROPOSE that we loot and leave Sardis to it's fate, as the inhabitants do not want us, we should not waste the lives of men in a revolt that could happen soon.

I PROPOSE we do not engage in military action before this issues are resolved. At most, only defensive battles should be fought. As the state of this alliance is not even good enought to lead a taxeis.

I PROPOSE that another office is to be held in place. That of the "Dioiketes" be put in place, he should be the minister of economy and the state. His charges are that of an hegemon but with a smaller power, such is the one of the Polemarchos with the Strategos Autokrator.

I PROPOSE that these proposals do not have the need to wait for a Koinon election to be passed, as we are in a state of complete chaos, we cannot even allow thing running the same for several days, much less months or years.

I please request you to approve the last motion, as I possibly will not be stepping inside this building for another year, so these proposals will not be put in motion again."

He sat down, not looking at anybody, but kept wandering his thoughts, about his son, his farm, his wife, his horses, his friends, his slaves. Not in what war would be brought upon this anthropic construct. He knew he would leave soon, as he could not wait for long.

@Moolinaargh, please hold the Gerousia and the Boule for one or two more days; thank you.

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

Very interesting, too bad I cannot vote here. However, a lot of these will have to be passed as Koinon Law, so I can on a few! I can tell quite a few of these will stir up some good controversy to liven up the scene. Interesting to see old Leumenes trying to save the Koinon Hellenon from the flaming inferno of civil war, against all odds and with the knowledge that everything he does will be in vain, for the immortal gods have proclaimed that civil war is but just around the corner. Very interesting indeed.

[Greenlizard0.]

Leuminus is more than right. We behaved shamefull and we did not search enough for solutions.



I PROPOSE that all cities regain neutrality. Whether it's either of our cities, no city shall take part in the election if it is not a candidate from their polis. That if any man from his polis comes and supports either of us, that he will be the only one, not take the whole city on his back. And, most importantly; that it does not matter who conquered it. If it supports that polis; it will be abandonded and left to it's own; as they need to set free from the shackles of either of our wishes, for they are not our children; but our friends. (All polis are to be neutral, it doesn't matter who conquered it, and no polis has a right to support another, only their motions, and it doesn't matter whose motions). However those conquered by the city themselves may receive orders from the city that holds the basileon; for the military actions, and the hegemon; for the economic actions. And also by the other, as long as it is put in motion in the other's boule.

You make a point here. This is indeed a stress point. At the start it didn't improve tensions. Yet, after a while it did. So I agree with you for the Athenian cities. I would also like to agree with this as an Koinon Law.



I PROPOSE that the act that divides the conquest regions passed by Arthouros be removed from vigency, as this will encourage massive wars and conquest, when there is truly no need for it. Since we cannot cooperate in another's conquest; and also for us to progress with pan-hellenism, we must wage unnecesary and possibly crumbling wars that will stripe us from our conquests. I did not aprove this motion because I did not know what it would wind into. I am certain his intentions were good in heart, but it was a terrible outcome.

I partially agree, the reason is that this will only work with Spartan agreement (it is an violation of the law otherwise). We must change the law on a proper way.


I PROPOSE that; instead of dividing the world in two; we instead have many small jurisdictions, under the command of the city that holds the office of basileos or hegemon. We will call them Eparchies (singular Eparchia). And they will have an independent army, and after having delimited each Eparchia and their Kephalaiou (capital), when we capture it, that the army that did will only stand besides the city until it can both, defend itself, and have an independent army. That way we increase our cooperation, as the Eparchies will need each other to fend off attacks from others, and also decrease our tensions.

Agreed. This motion wil create more equality.


I PROPOSE that we refrain as most as we can from conquering non-hellenic cities. We should have united the hellenic world before we start hellenizing those others that do not understand the way of the polis. That said; I will go further.

My agreement on this Koinon Law proposal is here.


I also PROPOSE that we loot and leave Sardis to it's fate, as the inhabitants do not want us, we should not waste the lives of men in a revolt that could happen soon.

I disagree on this motion, the problem is that the Seulekids may retake it (it was a loyal city of that Arche).


I PROPOSE we do not engage in military action before this issues are resolved. At most, only defensive battles should be fought. As the state of this alliance is not even good enought to lead a taxeis.

I PROPOSE that another office is to be held in place. That of the "Dioiketes" be put in place, he should be the minister of economy and the state. His charges are that of an hegemon but with a smaller power, such is the one of the Polemarchos with the Strategos Autokrator.

I PROPOSE that these proposals do not have the need to wait for a Koinon election to be passed, as we are in a state of complete chaos, we cannot even allow thing running the same for several days, much less months or years.

Agreed on these as wel.

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Tyrfingr]

I agree on all the proposals made by Leumenes. Let's see them done!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Leumenes could not bear it anymore. There were no proposals; no acting measures to be taking, only men shouting and barking like dogs. He knew they were idiotes, that their actians were fruitless and without substance, that even a barbarian can spout insults to another man, but not a single barbaroi could stand firm and speak resolutes and measures. He couldn't resist the thought, the bouleuterion was filled with screaming and uncivilized barbaroi.

He had enough time to gather his mind while the dogs were barking like animals, he decided to silence the whole boule with a single shout: BARBAROI!
To which the whole boule stood in confusion to whom he hath said that, was it to the athenians, to the spartans, to the slaves, was there a barbarian amongst them?
Nobody asked it, and he did not clarify, as he usually said to himself "Ο καθένας είναι ένα βάρβαρο σε κάποιον" (O kathenas einai eva barbaro se kapoion).

"I will not bother you with any fancy talk or any enormously long speech, but try to be brief and blunt. This assembly is nothing more than a dog cage, where each dog will bite each other and kill each other because they want a piece of meat. You are not worthy of being called hellenes. You spout and shout and scream and insult as any getae or sauromates would with each other. There is no proposal for action in your speech, but rather words that even a soldier would not dare to say.
It is time I do something, within my absence, quite a few things have happened, I won't even slightly care for those that alter constitutions or attitudes. I will see what they do to the real world, not the one made by man.
I will make my first proposal, it seems there have been few this year, as barbaroi do not propose, but rather coerce.

I PROPOSE that all cities regain neutrality. Whether it's either of our cities, no city shall take part in the election if it is not a candidate from their polis. That if any man from his polis comes and supports either of us, that he will be the only one, not take the whole city on his back. And, most importantly; that it does not matter who conquered it. If it supports that polis; it will be abandonded and left to it's own; as they need to set free from the shackles of either of our wishes, for they are not our children; but our friends. (All polis are to be neutral, it doesn't matter who conquered it, and no polis has a right to support another, only their motions, and it doesn't matter whose motions). However those conquered by the city themselves may receive orders from the city that holds the basileon; for the military actions, and the hegemon; for the economic actions. And also by the other, as long as it is put in motion in the other's boule.

I cannot stress how important is for us to take this measure; as it has been one of the pillars for our confrotations.

I PROPOSE that the act that divides the conquest regions passed by Arthouros be removed from vigency, as this will encourage massive wars and conquest, when there is truly no need for it. Since we cannot cooperate in another's conquest; and also for us to progress with pan-hellenism, we must wage unnecesary and possibly crumbling wars that will stripe us from our conquests. I did not aprove this motion because I did not know what it would wind into. I am certain his intentions were good in heart, but it was a terrible outcome.

I PROPOSE that; instead of dividing the world in two; we instead have many small jurisdictions, under the command of the city that holds the office of basileos or hegemon. We will call them Eparchies (singular Eparchia). And they will have an independent army, and after having delimited each Eparchia and their Kephalaiou (capital), when we capture it, that the army that did will only stand besides the city until it can both, defend itself, and have an independent army. That way we increase our cooperation, as the Eparchies will need each other to fend off attacks from others, and also decrease our tensions.

I PROPOSE that we refrain as most as we can from conquering non-hellenic cities. We should have united the hellenic world before we start hellenizing those others that do not understand the way of the polis. That said; I will go further.

I also PROPOSE that we loot and leave Sardis to it's fate, as the inhabitants do not want us, we should not waste the lives of men in a revolt that could happen soon.

I PROPOSE we do not engage in military action before this issues are resolved. At most, only defensive battles should be fought. As the state of this alliance is not even good enought to lead a taxeis.

I PROPOSE that another office is to be held in place. That of the "Dioiketes" be put in place, he should be the minister of economy and the state. His charges are that of an hegemon but with a smaller power, such is the one of the Polemarchos with the Strategos Autokrator.

I PROPOSE that these proposals do not have the need to wait for a Koinon election to be passed, as we are in a state of complete chaos, we cannot even allow thing running the same for several days, much less months or years.

I please request you to approve the last motion, as I possibly will not be stepping inside this building for another year, so these proposals will not be put in motion again."

He sat down, not looking at anybody, but kept wandering his thoughts, about his son, his farm, his wife, his horses, his friends, his slaves. Not in what war would be brought upon this anthropic construct. He knew he would leave soon, as he could not wait for long.

@Moolinaargh, please hold the Gerousia and the Boule for one or two more days; thank you.

~Jirisys ()

I AGREE. I will present this to the Spartiatai Gedrosia. I also bring word from Sparte of a Law Proposal:


KOINION LAW PROPOSAL: I propose that according to the Zone of Influence law laid down by Arthouros that we create two new positions in the Koinon to see to our expanding needs, and to follow along with this new law. I Propose that we create a position for Strategos in the West, and Strategos in the East. Spartans would run for the West, Athenians for the East. At the same time we would still have a third Strategos, from either city, who will command the Elite Troops of Hellas and can overrule the orders of the Council for the other two Strategoi. Therefore the political position list would look like this...:
[Arranged by Rank)
Strategos [20 units]
Strategos (Sparta) [16 units] Strategos (Athens) [16 units]
Polemarchos (Sparta) [10 units] Polemarchos [12 units] Polemarchos (Athens) [10 units]
Hegemon [8 units]

Amendment by Arthouros: These minor Strategoi shall be disallowed to enter Hellas with their armies, as to not threaten the military and political balance in our homelands.

[Molinaargh]

https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9021/koinonsymbol.png
Koinon Elections of Rhodos - 250 BC


This year the councilors of the Koinon had to sail in order to reach the polis the elections took place. The island of Rhodos was chosen, a somewhat Athenian-aligned territory.

The Athenian candidate for Strategos was Doros, who had demanded his candidature from the Athenian assembly. For Hegemon the candidate was Nikanor, his brother, the one who conquered Pergamon against the assembly's will and was forced to return and remain in Athenai, losing control of the Athenian army.

The Spartan candidate for Strategos was Akrotatos, the famous Spartan King. For Hegemon, Damasos, the Tyrannos of Makedonia, stepped forward.

Agis, who wanted to be re-elected, was desmayed at the choice of his council for Akrotatos instead of him despite all his pleads. Problem was - and still is - that Agis is commanding the Alliance Army. Will he pass the army to the next Strategos peacefully after this disappointment? Perhaps it's best the Spartan council send him a letter.

Representatives from all free poleis voted and reached these final results:


https://i.imgur.com/Sy7uM.jpg
Doros Aithalidos Attikos, of Athenai, is now Strategos of the Koinon.
Damasos Souniakos, of Sparte, is now Hegemon.
Akrotatos Agiados Lakedaimonios, of Sparte, is the new Polemarchos.


Many accused Doros of rigging the elections in his favor. He claimed he had done nothing, but rumors of his threats to the Athenian assembly had spread and there was much doubt surrounding his election. The oppositors of Athenai vehemently claimed Akrotatos was the rightful winner. Doros's attitude and the suspicion of a fraud caused much turmoil in this Koinon session, but, other than old men screaming at each other, there was no greater consequence to this, and the Koinon remained one.


https://i.imgur.com/8Kwe6.jpg


In legislative news, the law proposal of the Spartan Nikolas (ArtoriusRex) passed between the Spartans and would be voted for by the entire Koinon in the next elections.




https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenian Council session may now continue.

[jirisys]

:brood:

I'll never propose again by the way, thanks for counting my proposals and giving a little more time.

~Jirisys (:brood:)

[Molinaargh]

:brood:

I'll never propose again by the way, thanks for counting my proposals and giving a little more time.

~Jirisys (:brood:)
I have nothing to say to this, so much that you are wrong and being rude. I don't have to explain things to you as if you were a child, try using your brain and figuring it out.

Alas, you should be more understanding to someone who puts quite some time in doing these purely to entertain you guys and gets pretty much nothing out of it.

:knight:

Oh my grief, you take things so seriously, you are so funnily serious.

Alas you should be understanding to someone that tries to revive this thread to entertain people without anything in return, as if it was too hard to wait a little while longer.

Besides, I already had stressed the "no post again" even before this.

~Jirisys ()
If you want to play by your own rules, make your own self-centered AAR. Here we don't play by what jirisys demands, but by what is best for everyone.

[jirisys]

I have nothing to say to this, so much that you are wrong and being rude. I don't have to explain things to you as if you were a child, try using your brain and figuring it out.

Alas, you should be more understanding to someone who puts quite some time in doing these purely to entertain you guys and gets pretty much nothing out of it.

:knight:

Oh my grief, you take things so seriously, you are so funnily serious.

Alas you should be understanding to someone that tries to revive this thread to entertain people without anything in return, as if it was too hard to wait a little while longer.

Besides, I already had stressed the "no post again" even before this. It just strikes me that you didn't even said when the session was over anyway.

~Jirisys ()

[Tyrfingr]

Outrageous behaviour on Leumenes part! Good thing that he's leaving by his own accord, less he would be thrown out of our assembly.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[jirisys]

Outrageous behaviour on Leumenes part! Good thing that he's leaving by his own accord, less he would be thrown out of our assembly.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

It was OOC, not by Leumenes, but by jirisys :grin:

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

I know there have been Polis Session proposals already, but I suggest you guys take a look at the last update again (250 B.C. - Conquest of Byzantion (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132898-Koinon-Hellenon-Athens-X-Sparta-(.org-X-TWCenter)-a-participative-AAR-Athenai&p=2053272369&viewfull=1#post2053272369)) and continue to discuss the next moves based on the new offices situation (such as Doros gaining command of the Alliance Army).

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Demosthenes took the floor once more

"Leumenes, much as I have viewed you as a friend through all these years I will not be likened to a dog, barking in fear. I speak truths, and if you have something to say regarding those truths then say it. It is that we, Athenians, are not Idiotes, that we revere our right and privilege to vote, that is at stake here. Perhaps, by the brevity of your speech, you betray your Spartan ancestry, perhaps your true colours.

Perhaps it is acceptable, from a certain perspective, to allow the leader of the Spartan Nationalist Party to appear before our great council and command a fellow Athenian as to their rights here. Perhaps, from a certain point of view, it is acceptable to demand silent acquiescence to the demands of a Spartan Nationalist while he contrives to place Athenian wealth into Spartan hands. That point of view is, I would suggest, that of a true idiote.

Would you have peace between us at any cost? Should an Athenian prostate himself before the demands of Spartan Kings? Idiote, you accuse, without ever considering the implications of your words. This Spartan would twist our actions to seem incongruent with peace, whole all the time shoring up Spartan strength. See you not the mischief in his words? How far would you be willing to run before you turned a sword upon a Spartan usurper?

Cowards, if you think to placate the Spartan threat by meek agreement. Can you not see what is at foot here? A plot to enslave Athenai by foul means, by our own hand. My son shall not be enslaved by my pitiable compliance with Spartan hegemony. See you not what this rascal truly proposes?

Do not, dear Hellenes, the true wearers of that mantle, be fooled by wily and twisted words. See through them to the true aim of a Spartan Nationalist. We are peacable, but not weak. We seek alliance, but not at the cost of our freedoms. If war is what is desired, then war shall you have, and I say let it be now...not when the Spartans have undermined us."

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I have nothing to say to this, so much that you are wrong and being rude. I don't have to explain things to you as if you were a child, try using your brain and figuring it out.

Alas, you should be more understanding to someone who puts quite some time in doing these purely to entertain you guys and gets pretty much nothing out of it.

If you want to play by your own rules, make your own self-centered AAR. Here we don't play by what jirisys demands, but by what is best for everyone.

Molinaargh, I thank you for this AAR. If we Athenians are to bow out, I shall work to make it a spectacular end.... I have thoroughly enjoyed this.... and wish I had more free time to give to it..

[Vaginacles]

I think what really killed my enthusiasm for this AAR was finding out about the inevitability of civil war, despite the obvious resentment towards it at this time. Even though i was a staunch proponent of civil war, There is no fun trying to stir poop up, be ignored, and then have a divine command issued for the civil war. Its funny because originally, i thought the beauty of a Democratic AAR is that people would have conflicting opinions and would enjoy having a fun debate discussing the IC pros and cons of political action.Oddly enough, there seems to be an almost universal agreement in the same Powergaming principles of blitzing, expanding, and avoidance of conflict that makes EB boring and dry after 20 or so turns. I started the Arche Athenaei because i wanted to have fun and annoy the bejesus out of the Spartans, all the while fighting back the pro Koinen party here. But after i found out that everyone want to powergame this AAR, i figured i would bide some time (since i had midterms and assignments anywaus) until people got bored of the stupid Koinen Hegemony angle and started voicing calls for civil war. This never came, instead it was the Creator of the AAR that ultimately got bored of the monotonous battles, and the landgrab, blitzing strategy that his underlings (yes, this IS his AAR and it is a privledge for you to even participate in it) unanimously recommended. I can't blame him, I would HATE playing a Powergame, much less having to write an AAR about it. But by making civil war an inevitability, this AAR has lost whatever spark of spontanity it had during the Koinen majority.

It is ironic that in real life, democracy is so stratified, conflicting, and at times contradictory. While in a game about military warfare, it seems singleminded in it's determination to powergame.

The only people i can really blame for how this AAR has unfolded is really the people who participated, in your zeal to make the Koinen Hellene work and minimize conflict between Athens and Sparta, you destroyed the fun that was the essence of this democractic experiment: the conflict itself.

[Molinaargh]

I think what really killed my enthusiasm for this AAR was finding out about the inevitability of civil war, despite the obvious resentment towards it at this time. Even though i was a staunch proponent of civil war, There is no fun trying to stir poop up, be ignored, and then have a divine command issued for the civil war. Its funny because originally, i thought the beauty of a Democratic AAR is that people would have conflicting opinions and would enjoy having a fun debate discussing the IC pros and cons of political action.Oddly enough, there seems to be an almost universal agreement in the same Powergaming principles of blitzing, expanding, and avoidance of conflict that makes EB boring and dry after 20 or so turns. I started the Arche Athenaei because i wanted to have fun and annoy the bejesus out of the Spartans, all the while fighting back the pro Koinen party here. But after i found out that everyone want to powergame this AAR, i figured i would bide some time (since i had midterms and assignments anywaus) until people got bored of the stupid Koinen Hegemony angle and started voicing calls for civil war. This never came, instead it was the Creator of the AAR that ultimately got bored of the monotonous battles, and the landgrab, blitzing strategy that his underlings (yes, this IS his AAR and it is a privledge for you to even participate in it) unanimously recommended. I can't blame him, I would HATE playing a Powergame, much less having to write an AAR about it. But by making civil war an inevitability, this AAR has lost whatever spark of spontanity it had during the Koinen majority.

It is ironic that in real life, democracy is so stratified, conflicting, and at times contradictory. While in a game about military warfare, it seems singleminded in it's determination to powergame.

The only people i can really blame for how this AAR has unfolded is really the people who participated, in your zeal to make the Koinen Hellene work and minimize conflict between Athens and Sparta, you destroyed the fun that was the essence of this democractic experiment: the conflict itself.
I'm a bit confused by your criticism here, as you are disappointed at having a civil war and also disappointed at not having one, or so I understood from these quotes:


"But by making civil war an inevitability, this AAR has lost whatever spark of spontanity it had during the Koinen majority."
"in your zeal to... minimize conflict between Athens and Sparta, you destroyed the fun that was the essence of this democractic experiment: the conflict itself".

The civil war is not inevitable. In fact, it has been successfully stopped today by the Spartan council when Akrotatos was nominated instead of Agis, a process which included vote changes and a big mess in general.

I don't see the huge crysis you seem to indicate in your post.


Molinaargh, I thank you for this AAR. If we Athenians are to bow out, I shall work to make it a spectacular end.... I have thoroughly enjoyed this.... and wish I had more free time to give to it..
Thank you. :bow:

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I think what really killed my enthusiasm for this AAR was finding out about the inevitability of civil war, despite the obvious resentment towards it at this time. Even though i was a staunch proponent of civil war, There is no fun trying to stir poop up, be ignored, and then have a divine command issued for the civil war. Its funny because originally, i thought the beauty of a Democratic AAR is that people would have conflicting opinions and would enjoy having a fun debate discussing the IC pros and cons of political action.Oddly enough, there seems to be an almost universal agreement in the same Powergaming principles of blitzing, expanding, and avoidance of conflict that makes EB boring and dry after 20 or so turns. I started the Arche Athenaei because i wanted to have fun and annoy the bejesus out of the Spartans, all the while fighting back the pro Koinen party here. But after i found out that everyone want to powergame this AAR, i figured i would bide some time (since i had midterms and assignments anywaus) until people got bored of the stupid Koinen Hegemony angle and started voicing calls for civil war. This never came, instead it was the Creator of the AAR that ultimately got bored of the monotonous battles, and the landgrab, blitzing strategy that his underlings (yes, this IS his AAR and it is a privledge for you to even participate in it) unanimously recommended. I can't blame him, I would HATE playing a Powergame, much less having to write an AAR about it. But by making civil war an inevitability, this AAR has lost whatever spark of spontanity it had during the Koinen majority.

It is ironic that in real life, democracy is so stratified, conflicting, and at times contradictory. While in a game about military warfare, it seems singleminded in it's determination to powergame.

The only people i can really blame for how this AAR has unfolded is really the people who participated, in your zeal to make the Koinen Hellene work and minimize conflict between Athens and Sparta, you destroyed the fun that was the essence of this democractic experiment: the conflict itself.

I understand what you're saying but I think you are wrong. Only inasmuch as the AAR is only twenty years into the game. The greatest threats are just being dealt with. Epiros, Makedonia and now the Seleucids. Once the Koinon had a firm base then civil strife would follow. I know that was always my intention. But, to be reasonable, the Koinon still requires a level of alliance. Once a certain level of peace prevailed then.... I think most of us would desire war on some pretence or other....

I think the dreaded 'real life' has been the greatest enemy of this AAR...

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Molinaargh, sometimes it's easy to forget to be thankful for things one start to take for granted, for the record I have really enjoyed this AAR and I thank you for it.

(will make some proposals later)

[Vaginacles]

I understand what you're saying but I think you are wrong. Only inasmuch as the AAR is only twenty years into the game. The greatest threats are just being dealt with. Epiros, Makedonia and now the Seleucids. Once the Koinon had a firm base then civil strife would follow. I know that was always my intention. But, to be reasonable, the Koinon still requires a level of alliance. Once a certain level of peace prevailed then.... I think most of us would desire war on some pretence or other....

I think the dreaded 'real life' has been the greatest enemy of this AAR...


After the Defeat of Macedonia, KH already has a stable base. The fact is that EVERYONE was on the boat for blitzing Macedonia, then Eperios, then blitzing neutral Polises and Seleucia. That wouldn't have even been an issue if there was a serious anti-spartan sentiment on the Athenian forums here. Instead, everyone tried their damndest to not piss of the spartans less OH NOES Civil war happens. So you have 20+ pages of the same boring pro Koine, pro Sparta, anti civil war wall of text that really set Athens up as a benevolent city sacrificing it's men for "Hellenism". People don't die for people they don't know, no matter how much culture they share with one another.

The greatest enemy of this AAR is unanimous desire, theres no conflict to be had here. Every story, movie, play, game, even song has a conflict, without conflict it would just be boring.

[Molinaargh]

Every story, movie, play, game, even song has a conflict, without conflict it would just be boring.
I agree with that and this is why this AAR is made the way it is.

Honestly I'd rather you prove your point by participating in the AAR and trying to make it better instead of complaining about the others.

Molinaargh, sometimes it's easy to forget to be thankful for things one start to take for granted, for the record I have really enjoyed this AAR and I thank you for it.

(will make some proposals later)
Thank you too! :bow:

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

After the Defeat of Macedonia, KH already has a stable base. The fact is that EVERYONE was on the boat for blitzing Macedonia, then Eperios, then blitzing neutral Polises and Seleucia. That wouldn't have even been an issue if there was a serious anti-spartan sentiment on the Athenian forums here. Instead, everyone tried their damndest to not piss of the spartans less OH NOES Civil war happens. So you have 20+ pages of the same boring pro Koine, pro Sparta, anti civil war wall of text that really set Athens up as a benevolent city sacrificing it's men for "Hellenism". People don't die for people they don't know, no matter how much culture they share with one another.

The greatest enemy of this AAR is unanimous desire, theres no conflict to be had here. Every story, movie, play, game, even song has a conflict, without conflict it would just be boring.


Twenty years is nothing. It has been some...55years since WW2, yet the idea that the US and UK armed forces might not have the same aims is alien to many. Only now are 'allied' projects seriously questioned. After the defeat of Makedonia the Koinon faced the potential threat of Epiros. It should be noted that the Athenian council was particularly upset by Nikanor's taking of Pergamon. Why? Because we Athenians wished to hold the moral high ground. Sparte's attacks of Syrakousi were always going to cause a level of conflict, because we had always attempted to defend and liberate Hellenic states.

Of course there was a level of unanimous desire..the Koinon is in its infancy.

Molinaargh is right...the Athenian aspect of this AAR has died down, not through disinterest but...through real life. I know that I have simply not had the time to give to it that I would have liked.

Work at it.... perhaps we can convince Molinaargh that the Athenians can win a civil war, and that we will offer a btter AAR if we do... :-)

[Vaginacles]

I agree with that and this is why this AAR is made the way it is.

Honestly I'd rather you prove your point by participating in the AAR and trying to make it better instead of complaining about the others.

I have tried to participate, but i realized quickly that no one wanted to be anti spartan. In fact, theres a reason why i was the only member of the Arche Athenaei party when i left. I even made one post recommending a Realistic IC option for controlling Sardis, but i was shot down in favour of an allied state because it would piss off the spartans. Personally, i love what you did with the AAR Molin, you took a great idea and ran with it, wherever it went. But this forum, for some reason, loves boring monotony. They love being altruistic, collectivist, and completely Anti-Athenian. Even in the TWC there was the SNP who barely veil their distain for athens, yet here i am stuck being the only voice for dissent and ironically, their accusations that i was causing the collapse of the Koine hurt my position even more since everyone wanted to please the spartans.

I followed this AAR since the beginning, and i enjoyed your postings and writing even under the Koine monotony. But Civil war is Inevitable now, and i am left with a bad taste in my mouth given how this forum decided to pursue Koine Harmony at ALL cost. Frankly, the Idea of a City, killing it's own citizens to free a city without exerting some form of political power over it to ensure it's loyalty is bonkers. It only works for EB because theres no algorithim for Tyche or humanity.

[Vaginacles]

Twenty years is nothing. It has been some...55years since WW2, yet the idea that the US and UK armed forces might not have the same aims is alien to many. Only now are 'allied' projects seriously questioned. After the defeat of Makedonia the Koinon faced the potential threat of Epiros. It should be noted that the Athenian council was particularly upset by Nikanor's taking of Pergamon. Why? Because we Athenians wished to hold the moral high ground. Sparte's attacks of Syrakousi were always going to cause a level of conflict, because we had always attempted to defend and liberate Hellenic states.

Of course there was a level of unanimous desire..the Koinon is in its infancy.

Molinaargh is right...the Athenian aspect of this AAR has died down, not through disinterest but...through real life. I know that I have simply not had the time to give to it that I would have liked.

Work at it.... perhaps we can convince Molinaargh that the Athenians can win a civil war, and that we will offer a btter AAR if we do... :-)


The US and Britain had a history of co-operation before WW2

Eperios is an AI, while with the incorporation of macedonia KH was as strong as two nations. It was a ridiculous pushover.

When Nikanor returned to Athens, what happened to him? was he exiled? was he killed? no, he was just chilling in Athens.

How many people spoke out against sparta when they invaded Syracuse?

KH in it's infancy should be when its in MOST conflict, because people can still remember the days of the Theban wars and the golden age of Polises.

I'll try to do something then, since Civil war is inevitable. Though now that it's unanimous that civil war is inevitable, there will be no one that will disagree with me and no conflict really.

[Vaginacles]

*Ahem* Athens, War is comming. Even now those in the spartan committee are plotting against us, talking of strengthening the defense of Cornith and our weakness in the mainland. Their prominent citizen, Agis, is reported to be resisting calls for his resignation as strategos of the Allied Army. We must not be left behind and vulnerable lest civil war comes to us.

Therefore, it is with great Urgency that i PROPOSE the following:

1st: Doros must remove Agis from the position of Strategos by any means necessary

2nd: Doros will take the Allied Army towards Bithnyia, capture it, and propose terms to Pontos

3rd: Have Nikanor set up a series of forts dividing Greece in the same manner that is outlined By the Separation of influence Act by Arthuros.

4th: Recruit another Athenian army, and have them Stationed permenantly in Athens.

[Vaginacles]

I'm a bit confused by your criticism here, as you are disappointed at having a civil war and also disappointed at not having one, or so I understood from these quotes:


The civil war is not inevitable. In fact, it has been successfully stopped today by the Spartan council when Akrotatos was nominated instead of Agis, a process which included vote changes and a big mess in general.

I don't see the huge crysis you seem to indicate in your post.


Thank you. :bow:

I am disappointed in having to force the people here into civil war via increasing the civil war bar without any real reason other than the slowness of the Athen's forum. You made it seem in your post in page 23 that you wanted a civil war to happen because there wasn't enough pace in the Athen's forum. I must have misinterpreted as you making up your mind already for a civil war. The civil war is never going to happen because no one will ever go for it, unless you make them.

[Populus Romanus]

It seems Leumenes has resigned from the Boule. I wonder if his son will resign as well.

O Vaginalces, if you do not like the lack of conflict, advocate for conflict. Do something to piss people off. Be an ancient Boule troll (hahahaha, that rhymed:laugh4:!).

[jirisys]

It seems Leumenes has resigned from the Boule. I wonder if his son will resign as well.

O Vaginalces, if you do not like the lack of conflict, advocate for conflict. Do something to piss people off. Be an ancient Boule troll (hahahaha, that rhymed:laugh4:!).

I wanted to create conflict with the same arguments as to create peace, because let's face it, people don't propose anymore here more than they insult, I don't mind the anti-spartan sentiment but at least propose something about it! Not just say and yell things. Remember when this AAR was started? I propose an act to stop the spartans from crossing to our lands and they did it anyway and were defeated, I removed the spartans from this boule and we trashed their oportunities on the offices, this would have become this same thing if I had not reconciliated it and made us stand together, so we may defeat the makedonians. While I didn't encourage much blitzing, I did certainly wanted to make some battles in some island and maybe go conquer remote places... You know why? Because when they would be left, they would be defenseless, and would have to get interesting proposals on how to try to make them stay afloat. Instead we blitzed epeiros so much (I vehemently said not to, we should keep them as a buffer state and try to stop pergamon from getting conquered, therefore not blitzing but not either battless).

Now, we just go around in long ways and lots of useless and pointless battles far away, there's no cooperation or fear, that's why I proposed the act for the dioiketes (more money managment for the loser, therefore more ability to propose. It could also be used as the minister of foreign lands), the one for the abolition of the zones of interest (since that makes very boring battles and wars), the return of sardis to the AS (have a looming threat around), the one to only conquer the hellenized cities (so that we have an opponent that we cannot conquer yet would bring certain fear and discomfort, while true many boring battles may be fought, maybe you could auto resolve, and therefore make the need for quick action more important than tactics) and the Eparchia and allied armies proposal (making far away cities be vulnerable to heavy attacks and not able to receive quick help, therefore making more exciting and important the battles, with much more at stake to lose, because going to conquer those cities again with the athenian or allied army would take years. Also to switch gameplay from the boring and pacified farmlands and hills of hellas, to the warring and deadly fields of elsewhere).

I know I have been a jerk lots of times, but I wish this AAR to continue, I only said that I was leaving for two reasons: College(s) and the fact that Leumenes makes things boring sometimes and we all know who he is, there is no more interest to continue with his character. However put his son, raised in sparta and without much athenian influence without his father, nationalized in athens and with different feelings and thoughts, whilst also his father accompaning him therefore creating an emotionally involving conflict between the two of them, it would wind up to make things more interesting don't you think?

I am truly sorry Moolinaargh, and I hope you forgive me for my childishness, but I love what you brought to us, and maybe you could follow one last advice from me: Lost battles, it might make the grip on our lands tighter and make things more interesting. I hope you put in motion my proposals since they were passed (I think) by both assemblies. Until then I will keep posting, however I doubt it will be Leumenes.

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

I sympathize with you, Jirisys. I too am becoming bored with my character. Also, as war with the Romani is eventually going to happen (all we can ever do is delay it), I think I better change characters quick. After all, it would be a RP catastrophe if we went to war the Romans while I am RPing as a Roman. Only question is, what character would I do?
As for your proposals, they have been almost unanimously accepted here in Athenai, but in Sparte only two have voted as of now (I think quite a few people mistakenly believe the session was closed, for that is the only concievable reason for such inactivity in the Gerousai) and about half your proposals were killed and about half survived.

[jirisys]

I sympathize with you, Jirisys. I too am becoming bored with my character. Also, as war with the Romani is eventually going to happen (all we can ever do is delay it), I think I better change characters quick. After all, it would be a RP catastrophe if we went to war the Romans while I am RPing as a Roman. Only question is, what character would I do?
As for your proposals, they have been almost unanimously accepted here in Athenai, but in Sparte only two have voted as of now (I think quite a few people mistakenly believe the session was closed, for that is the only concievable reason for such inactivity in the Gerousai) and about half your proposals were killed and about half survived.

You mean you killed them?

But really, Nikolas did keep them afloat with 1 vote for all except for the 2 that is dead.
So it's:
I: 1-1
II: 0-2
III: 1-1
IV: 2-0
V: 1-0
VI: 2-0
VII-VIII: 1-1

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

Who all voted for them? I thought it was just me and him, and I vetoed about 2/3 of those proposals.

[jirisys]

Who all voted for them? I thought it was just me and him, and I vetoed about 2/3 of those proposals.

You and Artoriux, none has negative votes but some are draw since he agreed to all u disagreed with and viceversa.

Really, please accept them, it could very well have a good impact in this AAR. :grin:

For the sake of Mars Ultor! We must have battles be meaningful!

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

I might be able to change my vote for them in return for a little something...(insert evil cackle here) However, absolutely nothing could ever change my mind about proposition one. Especially because that one would have a definitive negative affect.

[jirisys]

What do you wish good sir?

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

Your son...
MUWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!:evil:

[jirisys]

Your son...
MUWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!:evil:

lolwut?

VMs :grin:

~Jirisys ()

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

The US and Britain had a history of co-operation before WW2

Eperios is an AI, while with the incorporation of macedonia KH was as strong as two nations. It was a ridiculous pushover.

When Nikanor returned to Athens, what happened to him? was he exiled? was he killed? no, he was just chilling in Athens.

How many people spoke out against sparta when they invaded Syracuse?

KH in it's infancy should be when its in MOST conflict, because people can still remember the days of the Theban wars and the golden age of Polises.

I'll try to do something then, since Civil war is inevitable. Though now that it's unanimous that civil war is inevitable, there will be no one that will disagree with me and no conflict really.

This is a participative AAR, and think many of us have been happy at the roleplay aspect of it. Epiros was a great threat in terms of that, I'm not suggesting that Epiros was an actual threat to the KH but rather it would have been seen as such from a roleplay perspective. You should take note that this Athenian council was pushing for restraint throughout, in our fight against the Macedons and the Epirotes. This council advocated the protection of Pergamon against the Seleucids, not its taking. We have not desired nor voted for a 'steamroller' campaign. In my own campaigns I try to avoid the destruction of other factions for as long as possible. I have been content for the overt aggression and expanionism to come from the Spartan council. If you desired more conflict then you should have proposed such. Whatever 'insults' or beratements you would get from the council would be roleplayed, not real. I'm sure (I hope) that Populus and Jirisys don't take my sleights against them seriously - but rather understand that they are set against their chosen characters in-game. You should have been the lone voice who, now, could demand our ear.

I can't speak for others, but from from my point of view war between us (once Molinaargh made clear he had a way of enabling such) has always been on the cards, as it would inevitably have been. The increase in wealth makes men greedy, the sharing of power (as with this council), likewise. Arthouros' division act is, itself, precipitative.

Not having a go or anything, just saying. A participative AAR only works the way you want it to by your participating in it. And that which goes against you...as in real life, you have to deal with it. Didn't want Pergamon to be taken by our armies while it was free....c'est la vie. Didn't want Makedonia wiped out.....c'est la vie.

As for the direct challenges. What happened to Nikanor? What did you think we Athenians would do, with (at the time) so few, and such weak, FMs? I considered proposing some action against Nikanor but that would have weakened Athens' political opportunities for power within the Koinon.

I have challenged Sparta's attack on Syuracuse, on the basis that it was a free polis, the same way that I challened Sparta's desire to take Thermon before the Epirotes attacked.

And....don't think that your proposals will go unchallenged..., there is the question of personal political power to be played for in this council ;-)

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

*Ahem* Athens, War is comming. Even now those in the spartan committee are plotting against us, talking of strengthening the defense of Cornith and our weakness in the mainland. Their prominent citizen, Agis, is reported to be resisting calls for his resignation as strategos of the Allied Army. We must not be left behind and vulnerable lest civil war comes to us.

Therefore, it is with great Urgency that i PROPOSE the following:

1st: Doros must remove Agis from the position of Strategos by any means necessary

2nd: Doros will take the Allied Army towards Bithnyia, capture it, and propose terms to Pontos

3rd: Have Nikanor set up a series of forts dividing Greece in the same manner that is outlined By the Separation of influence Act by Arthuros.

4th: Recruit another Athenian army, and have them Stationed permenantly in Athens.

"Vaginacles, I do not understand what you mean by your first proposal. Doros is now the Strategos. While I would advocate war against a Spartan nationalist who thinks to give orders to Athenai men in their own council, a spartan nationalist who proposes theft by stealth from Athenai free men; while I would challenge Sparte's desire for conquaet while hiding behind the mask of....'liberation', you seem to advocate violence on no grounds other than that it is possible by such to have conflict between us. Are you a war-monger, Vaginacles?

I do not know, anymore, who is to be trusted within this council to act in the best interests of Athens, let alone those other free Hellenes across our Koinon. I sense that there are certain members from both our poleis who are in league with each other for their own power. I have heard tell that Leumenes has left this council and will not return....that his son is more Spartan than Athenai. He seems to have some relationship with Appius.....a Spartan nationalist.

I PROPOSE that Leumenes' latest proposals be removed from the business of this council, as he seems to have little interest in defending them to reasonable challenge, nor will - it appears - he be around to face their consequences.

So, back to you Vaginacles.

I DISAGREE with your first proposal. I AGREE with your second proposal, though I am hoping that our previous arrangements within Sinope are ongoing..

I DISAGREE with your third proposal and AGREE with your fourth."

[jirisys]

I PROPOSE that Leumenes' latest proposals be removed from the business of this council, as he seems to have little interest in defending them to reasonable challenge, nor will - it appears - he be around to face their consequences.

:brood:

It still isn't the end of the year (I thought it was, therefore I said I would quit), and I didn't say I WILL, I said it I possibly would, so there.

You know how much infractions I would get for telling you what I think of you right now? :brood:

^ Roleplayed insults :laugh4:

But serously, Leumenes does not wish for political control, and his son is not mentioned to have been more spartan than athenian, he's 9 and stronger than most childs, I don't think he would be reciting poetry with his own will at this point. :inquisitive: I just said that because that could be the kind of characters we want, let there be an involving conflict.

What happened to the Makedonians, we would restrain from attacking their homeland because Epeiros would declare war even before they could be a threat, also they could expand themselves north and become a more powerful people in the long run. Also, what about Epeiros? I didn't like the whole blitzing thing in the south, I said to attack their armies that siege Thermon (kinda like AS with Pergamon) but then we blitzed them too, I tried to make a restrain as a buffer state, and keep em alive, but noooooooo, we wanted to kill them, cause we wanted peace and they denied it!

I just don't want this AAR to be like this, GSG, if you do not want it either, let's do more gameplay instead of a civil war, more offices, better sections, cooperation and enemies that ACTUALLY pushes us back, the AI won't do it, but we should let it anyways. Let's make battles mean something instead of simply stupid AI ppl coming to die. I am not saying that my proposals are actually the best, but it's a good start don't you think?

At least agree to some.

~Jirisys ()

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

As you have not disappeared then I shall give due consideration to your proposals.


I PROPOSE that all cities regain neutrality. Whether it's either of our cities, no city shall take part in the election if it is not a candidate from their polis. That if any man from his polis comes and supports either of us, that he will be the only one, not take the whole city on his back. And, most importantly; that it does not matter who conquered it. If it supports that polis; it will be abandonded and left to it's own; as they need to set free from the shackles of either of our wishes, for they are not our children; but our friends. (All polis are to be neutral, it doesn't matter who conquered it, and no polis has a right to support another, only their motions, and it doesn't matter whose motions). However those conquered by the city themselves may receive orders from the city that holds the basileon; for the military actions, and the hegemon; for the economic actions. And also by the other, as long as it is put in motion in the other's boule.

Much as I understand the thinking behind this, in terms of roleplay this just doesn't make sense. I think that certain poleis would be naturally inclined toward one or other of Athens or Sparte - by historical ties, for example. It just wouldn't be realistic to expect neutrality. Nor would it be realistic for each city to not..... encourage those bonds.

DISAGREE


I PROPOSE that the act that divides the conquest regions passed by Arthouros be removed from vigency, as this will encourage massive wars and conquest, when there is truly no need for it. Since we cannot cooperate in another's conquest; and also for us to progress with pan-hellenism, we must wage unnecesary and possibly crumbling wars that will stripe us from our conquests. I did not aprove this motion because I did not know what it would wind into. I am certain his intentions were good in heart, but it was a terrible outcome.

No, I think that the law itself is a good and well reasoned one. There is no reason why we could not co-operate in each other's wars...or rather come to the other's aid if such were needed, and indeed by doing so any increase in tension could be neutralised. There is nothing in the law itself, I think, that has increased tension. What has increased tension - from my point of view - is an expansionist aggression on the part of Sparte against Hellenic free states (Syrakousi), though obviously the actions of Nikanor in Pergamon weakens any claim to the 'high ground' in any dispute on this matter...

DISAGREE


I PROPOSE that; instead of dividing the world in two; we instead have many small jurisdictions, under the command of the city that holds the office of basileos or hegemon. We will call them Eparchies (singular Eparchia). And they will have an independent army, and after having delimited each Eparchia and their Kephalaiou (capital), when we capture it, that the army that did will only stand besides the city until it can both, defend itself, and have an independent army. That way we increase our cooperation, as the Eparchies will need each other to fend off attacks from others, and also decrease our tensions.

I can see this as perfectly reasonable, but each 'sphere of influence' would still require that the polis responsible would be able to commit troops reasonably quickly to aid those states, should they come under attack.

AGREE


I PROPOSE that we refrain as most as we can from conquering non-hellenic cities. We should have united the hellenic world before we start hellenizing those others that do not understand the way of the polis.

I sort of agree with this, but would actually prefer it that we don't attack any Hellenic polis that is a free state. So, rather than agree with this proposal, I would offer a counter PROPOSAL; that in our spheres of influence we do not attack free poleis, but should rather protect free Hellenic poleis' freedoms from foreign interference - as the Athenian council voted for with regards to Pergamon, and also (I believe) with regards to Thermon.


I also PROPOSE that we loot and leave Sardis to it's fate, as the inhabitants do not want us, we should not waste the lives of men in a revolt that could happen soon.

And what would become of Sardis? Would it remain a state free from Seleucid interference? But, I can see what you mean, and our real interest (at the moment) ought to be the liberation of Hellenic peoples. So, I AGREE with this. (It will also allow us to move more quickly to Bythinia and by such not leave Sparte hemmed in by the remnants of Epirote power and the aggression of Pontos - not to mention that ominous Getai army.... hopefully this would relieve some of the tension between us, hmmm Molinaargh?)


I PROPOSE we do not engage in military action before this issues are resolved. At most, only defensive battles should be fought. As the state of this alliance is not even good enought to lead a taxeis.

I PROPOSE that another office is to be held in place. That of the "Dioiketes" be put in place, he should be the minister of economy and the state. His charges are that of an hegemon but with a smaller power, such is the one of the Polemarchos with the Strategos Autokrator.

I PROPOSE that these proposals do not have the need to wait for a Koinon election to be passed, as we are in a state of complete chaos, we cannot even allow thing running the same for several days, much less months or years.

I DISAGREE with these proposals, for the simple reason that it is not our place to demand how decisions are to be made within the Koinon, and some decisions are perhaps necessary to relieve tensions between us.

[Populus Romanus]

STILL nothing? C'mon, people. You are holding up the update.

[Molinaargh]

Oops I forgot to close the session. Update coming in an hour or so if I'm quick.

[Molinaargh]

Spartan motions:
(Yes)-Send reinforcements to the Seige of Lilebo.
(Impossible, but they're already Stone Walls)-Improve the walls of Korinthos.
(Not yet)-Take Messana after Lilibo and then reinforce the island of Sikilia for the possible romanoi invasion.
(Not yet)-After taking Messana we take the most significantly depleted units in the Sparte Expeditionary Force and load them the Koinon Fleet, and then sail them to Sparte for retraining. Of course, we would leave one boat to blockade the Straight.

Athenian motions:
(Yes)-Doros will take the Allied Army towards Bithnyia, capture it, and propose terms to Pontos.
(Yes)-Recruit another Athenian army, and have them Stationed permenantly in Athens.



River Crossings




During all the turmoil of the last elections, Poublios was working hard with the Athenian Army to keep the eastern front safe. Small pontic forces harassed the border constantly.


https://i.imgur.com/G9Bqc.jpg

In a battle outside Ipsos, Poublios crossed the Lykos river of Phrygia to meet the enemy.

https://i.imgur.com/tpiDa.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/179mm.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/WLtcr.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/Od27U.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/OgSE4.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/O2ptG.jpg

With these battles, Poublios became known as a good frontier patroller.

https://i.imgur.com/eg6HN.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/yzQm3.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/3slLZ.jpg

In Sparte the training system was optimized, and in Rhodos the expansion of the polis...

https://i.imgur.com/oV2AL.jpg

...allowed the construction of another port in the island, a long time plan of the Athenian assembly.

https://i.imgur.com/NHUMG.jpg

In Sparte, the new training allowed the recruitment of new soldiers as strong as those of mythical times.

https://i.imgur.com/hUe42.jpg

Meanwhile, in Byzantion, Doros took control of the Alliance Army and moved out of the settlement, taking some of the locals with him in the new military campaign.

https://i.imgur.com/9xsqp.jpg

Agis, advised by the Spartan council, went - surprisingly without protests - with the Koinon Stratia as a subordinate of Strategos Doros, who gave him the low position of Dekarchos, commander of 10 men. This was a huge insult, considering Agis was the previous Strategos.

https://i.imgur.com/lSg9z.jpg

Doros marched towards Nikaia and faced a moderately strong field army on the way, but the Koinon Stratia was far mightier.

https://i.imgur.com/70bxv.jpg

Doros, like Poublios before him, had to cross a river, this time the Lykos of Bythinia.

https://i.imgur.com/JpRi2.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/61r7x.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/HdPeu.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/G8YWW.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/WybgQ.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/e0bgj.jpg

Then he was free to march towards Nikaia and begin the preparations for the siege.

https://i.imgur.com/nxfmx.jpg

Preparations which he did not get to finish. The armies of Pontos came to the rescue of their Basileos.

https://i.imgur.com/AGrQn.jpg

Basileos Ariobarzanes Kianos of Pontos was a famous men throughout the world. Doros was eager to prove himself against him.

https://i.imgur.com/0zRSd.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/LQfSW.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/OFRBa.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/iSwi5.jpg

The Basileos was killed in battle by our hoplites.

https://i.imgur.com/rDpor.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/Enou0.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/22Ia3.jpg

With this, Nikaia was easily conquered. A peace treaty with Pontos became very likely was well due to the death of their Basileos and their total defeat in western Asia.

https://i.imgur.com/5Lo3F.jpg

Meanwhile, in the west, Polemarchos Akrotatos marched with reinforcements towards Lilibeo.

https://i.imgur.com/p2d7h.jpg

As soon as he arrived the Spartan forces launched their attack against the carthaginian city.

https://i.imgur.com/VmKfB.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/KxWLI.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/HBwT0.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/9AzMy.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/4gIll.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/5QZLc.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/lZ8kf.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/owV8X.jpg

The exotic population was enslaved by Akrotatos.

https://i.imgur.com/7VBne.jpg

They worshipped strange, unheard of gods.

https://i.imgur.com/a0Kxf.jpg

He was unsure what kind of government could rule this strange people and sent word for the Spartan council asking for advice.

https://i.imgur.com/55DzZ.jpg

Such was the situation of Sikilia at this point:

https://i.imgur.com/k5nkQ.jpg

As soon as possible, the Spartan Kings marched towards Messana, hoping to attack it from the south so that they could be reinforced and supplied from Syrakousai.

https://i.imgur.com/Y1vd0.jpg

But there was another important river crossing. Not so much a river as a sea: the Romans crossed the strait of Messana and besieged the city. The hellenic ships could do nothing but sit and watch, as attempting to stop the Romans would mean war. Akrotatos has written stating that he is optimistic, as he expects the Romans to be defeated and retreat back to Italia while still damaging the garrison of Messana, making it easier for the Spartans to conquer it.

https://i.imgur.com/iEd7A.jpg

But that was not the only roman advance. In Illyria, the Romans also crossed beyond the Sava river, conquering the settlement of Segestica. This means the Koinon now shares a border with the romans in these barbarian lands.

https://i.imgur.com/PdlUL.jpg

In Asia our enemies are mostly defeated and only expect our demands so they can comply.

https://i.imgur.com/qiNMj.jpg




https://i.imgur.com/9106g.png
Polis session open!

[Molinaargh]

I, Molinas Hermaios, have written this list of the most important men of the Koinon - besides you noble councilors, of course - that shows their friendships, rivalries, ambitions and accomplishments, as well as which party they support.


https://i.imgur.com/ApfQb.png

[Tyrfingr]

It is as I predicted, the spartan aggressions in the west is bringing us ever closer to a war with these people calling themselves romani, especially now when they too have taken interest in Silikia. Sad, really sad, but I warned the council not to take action against the spartans...

However on to more cheerful events. Congratulations and celebrations for our victories in the east Soon, the whole of western Anatolia is subject to our wise and just rule. There is but one concern, why did not the men of Halikarnassos come to our aid when the seleukids fell upon Pergamon? What's the situation in Halikarnassos? Does their leader honour his greek heritage, or has he been replaced?

I propose sending a spy to infiltrate Halikarnassos and deliver report on the internal state of affairs of Halikarnassos to our next polis session.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

It is as I predicted, the spartan aggressions in the west is bringing us ever closer to a war with these people calling themselves romani, especially now when they too have taken interest in Silikia. Sad, really sad, but I warned the council not to take action against the spartans...

However on to more cheerful events. Congratulations and celebrations for our victories in the east Soon, the whole of western Anatolia is subject to our wise and just rule. There is but one concern, why did not the men of Halikarnassos come to our aid when the seleukids fell upon Pergamon? What's the situation in Halikarnassos? Does their leader honour his greek heritage, or has he been replaced?

I propose sending a spy to infiltrate Halikarnassos and deliver report on the internal state of affairs of Halikarnassos to our next polis session.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

Rhobrios, I AGREE to your proposal.

I PROPOSE that we expand the polis of Athenai (i.e. build the next governmental building)

I PROPOSE that we offer a peace treaty to the new Basileos tou Pontos WITHDRAWN SEE LATEST POST FOR NEW PROPOSAL

I PROPOSE that we recruit Toxotai Kretikoi in Kydonia (if not possible yet, then expand the barracks there instead)

I PROPOSE that we send a diplomat to Kart-Hadast and on behalf of the Koinon offer peace + trade and also some monetary compansation (2000 mnai)

I PROPOSE that we make Nikaia a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV)

[Lazy O]

Since TWC is not opening for me ATM. I propose that:

1. To make this more interesting, all battles be fought under AI control

2. We use the RS2 environment Submod

[Tyrfingr]

I PROPOSE that we expand the polis of Athenai (i.e. build the next governmental building)

Agree.


I PROPOSE that we offer a peace treaty to the new Basileos tou Pontos

I disagree. There's still greeks suffering under pontic rule, in Sinope! I will vote against any reconciliation attempts with the pontic kings until the greeks of Sinope has been freed.


I PROPOSE that we recruit Toxotai Kretikoi in Kydonia (if not possible yet, then expand the barracks there instead)

I agree.


I PROPOSE that we send a diplomat to Kart-Hadast and on behalf of the Koinon offer peace + trade and also some monetary compansation (2000 mnai)

I agree, along with an apology for our spartan "brothers"....


I PROPOSE that we make Nikaia a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV)

I disagree.

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif

[Greenlizard0.]

I propose sending a spy to infiltrate Halikarnassos and deliver report on the internal state of affairs of Halikarnassos to our next polis session.

Agreed.


Rhobrios, I AGREE to your proposal.

I PROPOSE that we expand the polis of Athenai (i.e. build the next governmental building)

I PROPOSE that we offer a peace treaty to the new Basileos tou Pontos

I PROPOSE that we recruit Toxotai Kretikoi in Kydonia (if not possible yet, then expand the barracks there instead)

I PROPOSE that we send a diplomat to Kart-Hadast and on behalf of the Koinon offer peace + trade and also some monetary compansation (2000 mnai)

I PROPOSE that we make Nikaia a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV)

I agree with all these, with the exeption of a peace with Pontus. I could agree with that if they release Sinope from their rule, to be an indipended kingdom under the protection of the Koinon.

A few proposals:

1: In the same line, we could send a scout to Sinope, just to see how the city is doing under the rule of Pontus. It would also show if they we're preparing an army.

2: We can improve the shools in Rhodes. Hopefully briliant minds would be drawn to the Island. (This could be done by establishing better contacs with Alexandië. I had heard that Alexandië is thé new center of learning in the known world).

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3669/greenlizardportrait.png

[Tyrfingr]

I agree with all these, with the exeption of a peace with Pontus. I could agree with that if they release Sinope from their rule, to be an indipended kingdom under the protection of the Koinon.

I could very well accept a peace with Pontos if Sinope is made a free kingdom (typVI) under greek rule, agree!


A few proposals:

1: In the same line, we could send a scout to Sinope, just to see how the city is doing under the rule of Pontus. It would also show if they we're preparing an army.

2: We can improve the shools in Rhodes. Hopefully briliant minds would be drawn to the Island. (This could be done by establishing better contacs with Alexandië. I had heard that Alexandië is thé new center of learning in the known world).

I agree on both, let our schools in Rhodes be the envy of the world!

http://img.ihack.se/images/15129837156215.gif