Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai [Archive]

Molinaargh

01-29-2011, 03:16

In this AAR I will play as the Koinon Hellenon, difficulty M/M (to keep things nice and easy). But!

This AAR will happen in both the TWC (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31) and the .org (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?70-Europa-Barbarorum) EB/AAR forums. Each forum will advise 1 of the KH cities. Every 4 turns (1 game year), TWC forum members will give suggestions on what Sparta should do next, while .org forum members will suggest what Athens should do.

https://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6182/spartarh.png
TWCenter forums: Sparte

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
.org forums: Athenai

Both cities are allied, though, and must submit their candidates to office positions in the Alliance every 4 years. The city that has a FM holding the Strategos office will be in great military advantage, as it will be able to control the full-stack Alliance Army. Other offices will give different advantages.

https://i.imgur.com/cqTab.png

Summary here! (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=421899)

https://i.imgur.com/cqTab.png

This first post will be dedicated to the Politeia, or the Constitution of the Koinon Hellenon, which says how this AAR will work.

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7885/politeia.jpg

VOTING

There are 2 moments of voting, "Polis Sessions" (every year, city only) and "Koinon Hellenon Sessions" (every 4 years, between the Alliance).

Different matters will be decided in each of those. The first one decides actions, the second decides offices and laws.

A. POLIS SESSIONS:

QUICK AND EASY VERSION:
-Every year.
-You can make a suggestion for what to do next, but your suggestion will only be executed if someone agrees with your suggestion (which is called a "motion").
-You can agree with someone else's motion if you want to see that executed.
-You can disagree with someone else's motion if you don't like it, but if more people vote in favor of it, it will be executed.

LONG AND COMPLETE VERSION:

City sessions will be held every year (4 turns) in the summer.

The Athenian Council (Boule) and the Spartan Council (Gerousia) will meet independently.

In these sessions, each council member may perform 3 actions:

-PROPOSE motion.
-AGREE with motion: Adds a vote in favor of the quoted motion. You may not accept your own motion.
-DISAGREE with motion: Adds a vote against the quoted motion.

PROPOSE motion: Proposes a motion to be accepted or denied by fellow council members. In order for a motion to pass, it needs to:
-be agreed by at least 1 other member.
-be more agreed upon than disagreed.
AGREE with motion: Adds a vote in favor of the quoted motion. You may not accept your own motion.
DISAGREE with motion: Adds a vote against the quoted motion.

Example of passing a motion:

I'd like to propose the motion of Besiege Roma.

I accept Member A's motion.

Result: the motion passes with 1 votes for and 0 votes against, and the actions will be executed (Roma will be besieged) in this turn.

There is no limit to how many motions may pass. They will pass as long as they meet the already mentioned requirements.

MOTIONS (examples of possible motions):

Military Motions:
-Besiege City
-Assault City
-Move to location
-Build Fort/Watch Tower
-Send Unit to Alliance Army (units may be automatically conscripted to the Alliance Army if it is not full).

Recruitment Motions:
-Recruit Unit
-Recruit Diplomat
-Recruit Spy
-Hire Mercenaries

Administrative Motions:
-Assign Governor
-Construct building

Diplomatic Motions:
-Offer Alliance
-Offer Gift
-Offer Trade Rights
-Offer Peace
-Other diplomatic actions.

Espionage Motions:
-Spy Location
-Infiltrate City

Other:
-Whatever you can think of!

B. KOINON HELLENON SESSIONS:

QUICK AND EASY VERSION:
-Every 4 years.
-You can vote for one of your city's FMs to run for the office of Strategos, and another to run for the office of Hegemon.
-You can propose laws that will change this constitution and vote on changes proposed in the last session.

LONG AND COMPLETE VERSION:

Alliance sessions will be held very 4 years (16 turns) in the winter. At that time, the cities of the Koinon Hellenon will unite to decide:

I) The offices of the Alliances*.

II) New laws for the Alliance (creation of new offices, new rules...). These must be proposed at a KH Session by a and will be accepted or denied by the other Polis at the next one (4 years later).

III) If previously suggested laws pass or not. As stated, laws suggested in the last KH Session

*There are 3 offices:

-Strategos Autokrator of the Koinon Army (General of the Alliance Army).
-Hegemon of the Koinon Hellenon (Leader of the Alliance of Hellenes).
-Polemarchos of the Koinon Hellenon (Military Leader of the Alliance).

Each city will submit one of its characters (FMs) to the office of Strategos and another to the office of Hegemon. The most suited character will win the election. The office of Polemarchos will be filled by the loser of the Strategos election.

Strategos Autokrator

The Strategos Autokrator is in charge of the main army of the Alliance. In times of war, this is the most important position in our league of poleis.
The Strategos Autokrator:
-Will have his chances to be elected based on https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1478/statinfluence.png + https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1146/commandp.png.
-May command a full army (20 units).
-Gains full command of the Alliance Fleet.
-When elected, will be moved instantly to the army location. The former Strategos will be moved back to his city.
-May not be re-elected or attempt re-election. This leadership rotation preserves the alliance of the cities, so that the army is not a personal one.
-May be elected once again after 4 years (Example: Areus is elected Strategos in 260BC, then cannot be re-elected in 256BC, but may attempt election again in 252BC)
-Should the Strategos die, the current Polemarchos will become Strategos.

Hegemon:

The Hegemon will prioritize spending the Alliance's treasure in his own city's interests, with buildings and recruitment. The office of Hegemon:
-Will have his chances to be elected based on https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1478/statinfluence.png + https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5130/statmanagement.png.
-Will make the Hegemon's city the political center of the Alliance (Capital).
-Is likely to get more buildings done for his city.
-Is likely to get more units recruited for his city.
-Is likely to get whatever his city demands more efficiently and quickly.

Polemarchos:

The Polemarchos is the second-in-command of the Alliance military.
-The losing candidate to the position of Strategos Autokrator will become Polemarchos.
-He may command an army of 12 units.
-He must use the army of his own city, as the Alliance army will be led by the Strategos.

Election calculation:

Election winners will be randomized based on their chance to win. In short, the higher the stats, the higher the chances. Calculations will happen in this manner for Strategos (for Hegemon, just replace the Com stat with Management):

A number from 1 to "Max number" will be randomized.

Max number = Influence (Athenian) + Command (Athenian) + Inf (Spartan) + Com (Spartan).

Athenian win range = Inf (Ath) + Com (Ath)
Spartan win range = Inf (Ath) + Com (Ath) + Inf (Spa) + Com (Spa).

It sounds complicated, but an example will make this easier:

Athenian candidate has 5 Influence and 1 Command.
Spartan candidate has 1 Influence and 3 Command.

A number will be randomly generated from 0 to 10 (sum of all stats).
Athenian wins if the number is between 1 and 6 (60% chance).
Spartan wins if the number is between 7 and 10 (40% chance).

Keep in mind generals with a lot of influence but no command stars might perform poorly in battle!

LAWS

272BC: Army Regulamentation Law
-Armies outside cities have a maximum of 8 units, unless commanded by the Strategos (max 20 units) or the Polemarchos (max 12 units).
-City armies must be commanded by a general. The army will return to its city if no general is present (if the general dies, for example).

255 BC: The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (by Arthouros the Divider)
-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

KOINON PANTHEION
"Hall of Fame"

I) Arthouros Attikos (Arthur, king of the Britons), known as Arthouros the Divider. Loyal Athenian, Epistates of Athenai, leader of the athenian Hellas party. First man to pass a Koinon Law since the foundation of the Alliance.

https://i.imgur.com/fPYW4.jpg
Marble bust of Arthouros the Divider, first man to pass a Koinon Law since the foundation of the Alliance. (Based on a bust of Attalus I)

II) Publius Appius Claudius (Populus Romanus), the Spartan-Roman Ephor of the Sparte Nationalist Party and loyal councilor of the Spartan Gerousia.

https://i.imgur.com/WbLwo.jpg
Marble bust of Appius. (Based on a bust of Agrippa)
The Epic of Demetrias (A Tale of Sparte) by Appius

Oh, were those not dark days.
In Hellas men could but pray.
It seemed freedom was at its last,
But we Hellenes had one last gasp.

The Makedonians, they held absolute sway.
But for freedom, there is always a way.
Our darkest hour soon had come,
The spark of freedom only in some.

But we Hellenes, we did unite!
Soon Makedonia found we put up a fight.
For the freedom our Koinon Hellenon was born,
But soon it would see all Hellas burn.

Our three greatest poleis came together:
Athenai, Rhodos, Sparte became brothers.
In 272 they did heroically declare
that this war was to be theirs.

A tide of total war spilled across the land.
This war was of all wars, the most grand.
The War of Makedonia and the Koinon Hellenon
would be the most brutal, for in the end one would be gone.

Chalkis and Korinthos were under our shoulder
For we liberated them in short order.
The Stratia ton Koinon broke the siege of Athenai,
But overconfident we became in victory.

Soon came the fateful year of 269.
But only for Makedonia was this year fine.
The Stratia ton Koinon marched behind King Areus
With the Stratia ton Sparte to Demetrias.

That fateful day we shall not forget.
That fateful day we shall always regret.
The First Siege of Demetrias, it was.
Twas only a good day for Antigonos Gonotas.

He sent to Demetrias their reinforments.
The Makedonians assaulted our battlements.
Drove them off, we Hellenes did.
And a great many of them fled.

But too many of us had been felled.
Soon we had been overwhelmed.
King Areus knew all was lost.
Out of the encirclement he fought.

To Attike he did hastily retreat.
His escape was altogether a mighty feat.
With the Stratia ton Koinon he prepared.
To meet the Makedonians, he dared.

From every corner of the Koinon Hellenon
reinforcements came, weak and strong.
It was the Koinon Hellenon’s finest hour,
Though it certainly was no show of power.

We drove them back that day.
Thousands of them lay slain.
Athenai had been saved.
The Makedonian storm, we had braved.

For years the Stratia ton Sparte lay broken.
Our strength, it was but token.
Men of Sparte, it was a hard way there.
Men of Sparte, it has been a long way back.

III) You?

Molinaargh

01-29-2011, 03:16

Introduction: The First Year, 272 BC

https://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6180/001ijb.jpg

https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5303/002dzf.jpg
Around 272 BC, the cities of Sparte, Rhodos and Athenai, along with other hellenistic allies, formed a league in order to fight the common macedonian enemy.

https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6682/027qbi.jpg
When the Koinon Hellenon was formed, there was little time for politics. The situation demanded action. The Macedonians had allied the Seleucid dynasty...

https://img585.imageshack.us/img585/9/029il.jpg
....and the armies of Antigonos Argeades, the Macedonian Basileus, were dangerously close to the borders of Athens and Sparta.

https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7247/030qi.jpg
But the Macedoiands were in danger themselves in the north. Pyrrhos was claiming the title of King of Macedon to himself, and Antigonos Argeades would have to march north soon. This was the chance the hellenes were waiting for.

https://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1002/028sb.jpg
Areus Agiados, the Spartan King, quickly brought his army from Crete back to the mainland.

https://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5997/003cn.jpg
He arrived in Sparte and rallied the city's garrison, uniting his forces with the oher Spartan King, Eudamidas Eurypontidos.

https://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2929/009qlt.jpg
The recruitment of addition troops were ordered in the name of the Koinon Hellenon, and...

https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6434/005mha.jpg
...taxes were raised as much as possible for the war effort that was about to come.

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/269/013ex.jpg
The Spartan Kings advanced towards the city of Korinthos, which stood between their army and the possible Athenian reinforcements. They besieged the city, building siege towers to assault the walls.

https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4420/014cgp.jpg
The city had only a small garrison and an incompetent descendent of the Macedonian King would be the one to attempt to defend it.

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6796/015yn.jpg

https://img823.imageshack.us/img823/874/016yr.jpg
The Spartan Kings led the assault themselves...

https://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5857/017fsl.jpg
...and the hellenic city of Korinthos was liberated from Macedonian rule.

https://img827.imageshack.us/img827/425/018bb.jpg

https://img821.imageshack.us/img821/541/012add.jpg
Meanwhile, in Athens, Chremonides gained political support from important citizens...

https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/438/019eq.jpg
...then, more war-like than most Athenians, made an attack on a macedonian skirmishing force near his city.

https://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9518/020dzx.jpg
He was successful, and saved the city of Athens without the help of the main army of the Koinon Hellenon, showing his strength to the Spartans.

https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6214/021an.jpg
In Asia Minor, a diplomat sent by the Alliance of Hellenes convinced the Seleucids to stop supporting the Macedonians and start supporting the true hellenic cities instead.

https://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7153/022wka.jpg
A favorable deal was reached.

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5337/023mn.jpg

https://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8233/024ojf.jpg
The Koinon Hellenon now had only one enemy: Macedon.

https://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1575/025lr.jpg
Not only that, but with the conquest of Korinthos, the Alliance was slowly pulling itself out of debt.

https://img38.imageshack.us/img38/893/026ez.jpg
With the Macedonian armies retreating to the north, the first session of the Koinon Hellenon was called in Korinthos, between Sparta and Athens.

https://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6364/004dpw.jpg
All the important men of the Koinon Hellenon attended, including:

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3501/006cv.jpg
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png

https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5898/007ir.jpg
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5700/008dr.jpg
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png

https://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5496/010hl.jpg
https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png

https://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1627/011eg.jpg
https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png
Agathokles of Rhodes attended supporting the Athenian interests, establishing a strong alliance between the two cities. He had his own interest, though: the Athenians only had one strong candidate for the upcoming elections, and there were 2 positions to be filled. The athenians could appoint him to one of the positions.

The first Koinon Hellenon session was about to be held...

Molinaargh

01-29-2011, 03:17

KOINON HELLENON SESSION 1 (272 BC) - OPEN:

https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1721/koinonstate1.jpg

Offices to be voted for:
-Strategos Autokrator
-Hegemon

https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.pngAthenian possible candidates: (Vote for one for each office)
-Chremonides Aithalidos Attikos
-Agathokles Rhodios

Example of a vote for this session:

I appoint Chremonides to run for Hegemon, and Agathokles to run for Strategos.

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-29-2011, 09:05

I PROPOSE the following motion:

-Chremonides Aithalidos Attikos to stand for election as Strategos Autokrator
-Agathokles Rhodios to stand for election as Hegemon

Reasoning: Chremonides is Athen's most successful strategos, and Agathokles is the oldest and wisest man in the Alliance, making him an ideal Hegemon.

(Note: Agathokles should not be appointed strategos, he is too old and infirm to take the field. However, the position of Hegemon will not require him to leave his home city of Rhodes.)

Drag0nUL

01-29-2011, 09:18

I AGREE with Titus Marcellus Scato's motion.

Walle

01-29-2011, 09:23

I AGREE with Titus Marcellus Scato's motion.

jirisys

01-29-2011, 15:34

I PROPOSE the following motion:

-Let the spartans choose our strategos.
-Agathokles Rhodios to stand for election as Hegemon

Reasoning: The spartans have a long standing tradition of being fierce warriors, and great commanders, and the men would fight like spartans themselves when they know there's a spartan fighting next to them. Agathokles is a very old man, having managed his city of Rhodes for years, he is a prime candidate and manager, he will be excellent for his position as Hegemon, and we would have control of the Koinon Lochoi and they would obey our decitions. And since the spartans have another wise man, yet he only has managed a spartan city, with the lack of economical and social constructs that exist in many other cities. This means we have an advantage.

~Jirisys (Let the barbaric greeks fight, we think)

Octavian I

01-29-2011, 15:41

I AGREE with jirisys motion.

Molinaargh

01-29-2011, 19:32

https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9021/koinonsymbol.png
KOINON HELLENON ELECTIONS

Athenian Council orders:
-Chremonides to run for Strategos.
-Agathokles to run for Hegemon.

Spartan Council orders:
-Areus to run for Strategos.
-Akrotatos to run for Hegemon.

Strategos

Candidates:

https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1269/athenian1.jpghttps://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png
Councilors of the Koinon Hellenon! I am Chremonides of Athens, and I hope to become your Strategos Autokrator. The Athenians ask for your support to remind the Spartans that the army that stands in this city is not their royal army, but the Alliance Army, an army of Hellenes. I, a true son of greece, am the best choice for the position of Strategos.

https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6703/spartan1.jpghttps://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png
I am Areus of Sparta, and if I am made Strategos by you today, I will continue my victories against Macedon. My Athenian opponent instead of waiting for the Alliance from Corinth, recklessly attacked the Macedonians with the garrison of his own city, only seeking personal glory and putting his citizens in danger, as well as losing more men than if he had waited for us Spartans to fight. This council must choose me as Strategos if it wants to win the war.

Hegemon

Candidates:

https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6573/athenian2.jpghttps://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png
Zzzzzz...

https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9180/spartan2.jpghttps://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png
See? My opponent is an old man who can only sleep. He could sleep in his grave for all I care! I, the heir to the Spartan throne, am clearly the best option for Hegemon.

Winners:

https://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4356/koinonstate2.jpg
The Hellene councilors made their choice in a close election for the position of Strategos. Some trusted the Spartan candidate to continue his victories against Macedonia and condemned the hasty action of the Athenian general. The Athenians were hoping the support of the recently invited Corinthian councilors, expecting them to vote against the Spartans as they were the ones who conquered their city. The Corinthians, though, viewed the conquest as a liberation from Macedonian rule, and supported the Spartans.
The election for Hegemon was less close, with an easy victory for Akrotatos of Sparta.
The Polemarchos was decided to be Chremonides, as he had lost the election for Strategos.

This Koinon Hellenon session is now closed, and councilors must now return to their cities to decide what they will do next based on the results of the Koinon elections.

Molinaargh

01-29-2011, 19:43

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
Athens - 272 BC

Current situation:
-Athens has lost both the elections for Strategos and Hegemon, but the Athenian Chremonides has been chosen as Polemarchos of the Alliance and can now command an army of 12 units (which isn't of much use, since the Athenian army is extremely small).
-The City of Athens and their ally, Rhodes, can recruit only levies and skirmishers.
-The Athenians have low priority for constructing buildings and recruiting men, as the Spartans hold the office of Hegemon.

https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1269/athenian1.jpghttps://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png(Polemarchos Chremonides)
In other words, councilors, our situation is hard, and we must not allow the Spartans to take all the glory for themselves! During this next year and the following years, until the next election, we must do something with the little we have. I do not know what that is, though. That's why I have you! I'm sure you'll think of something... right?

https://img816.imageshack.us/img816/9339/cityathenai.jpg
Athenai.

https://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4757/001ge.jpg
The Army of Athenai.

The Polis Session is now open to decide what Athens will do for the next year.

Drag0nUL

01-29-2011, 19:48

What about our fleet? Could you please tell us what units it consists of?

Molinaargh

01-29-2011, 20:22

What about our fleet? Could you please tell us what units it consists of?
The Alliance Fleet was disbanded as it was too expensive to maintain. Athens might be able to build ships if the gold isn't spent elsewhere.

Drag0nUL

01-29-2011, 20:35

The Alliance Fleet was disbanded as it was too expensive to maintain. Athens might be able to build ships if the gold isn't spent elsewhere.

Rgr. Missed that line, sorry. Wanted to suggest disbanding myself.

The Spartans might hold the offices of power for now, but we all know where most of the silver that funds this alliance comes from: and that is here, from the city of Athens! Let the Spartans fight, for that is what they do best and while they keep the Macedonian barbarians at bay, let us do what we do best: let us trade. For with trade comes wealth, and with wealth we can raise troops and hire mercenaries. Therefore, I PROPOSE we build a trading port.

jirisys

01-29-2011, 21:40

The spartans have beaten us, but yet, they have nowhere to go; the only way towards mainland is through Termon, and they will take time besieging that city. The other way around is through Attike, we must block our boundaries against spartan armies, Mytilene is defenseless and sorrounded, we must besiege it with whatever force we can (recruit at the least the most petty ship and use our own men as oarsmen), recruit more men as reinforcements for Athens (not telling the spartans, we sally to besiege but tell them our city is in dire need of supplies so we were forced to disband our levy army, so that they give us some men for training), and hold some men for the siege of Chalkis in the future, and make them come to us, not the other way around. If we capture it, we would gain loot, men and loyalty (We can also say that it capitulated to us, because the Arche Makedonia would not send reinforcements and were trapped without supplies). And we will have all the way cleared for Demetrias once we get a hold of many brave men. We must resort to violence, but, unlike our spartan brethren, we must think our actions ahead.

I PROPOSE we must build the smallest fleet so that we may invade Mytilene, secretly of course, we could hire some pirates also (Lemboi) from either Rhodos or Athenai.
I PROPOSE we must besiege Mytilene (reducing their supplies, making them angrier at the Makedonians for the lack of support), and recruit levy hoplites each season with spartan men, with the aforementioned excuse; so that our treasury and influence grows higher.
I PROPOSE we must not let spartan troops wander our lands, and use as excuse that Athens is in very need of food, and it's farmers cannot give supplies to the spartan troops.
I PROPOSE we levy some men from the spartans' that will be given to us for the legal and completely transparent siege of Chalkis, let us gain enough support so that we hold the Hegemon office, and if it were better, the stragegos office.
I AGREE with Drag0nUL's proposal (as long as we have enough money for both).

~Jirisys ()

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-29-2011, 23:43

The Alliance Fleet was disbanded as it was too expensive to maintain. Athens might be able to build ships if the gold isn't spent elsewhere.

Disbanding the fleet was a bad decision. It should have been used to attack the Macedonian fleet. And now we can't ship reinforcements from Rhodes to Athens until we build another ship.

What's the point of having advisers if you're going to make unilateral decisions? I give up....

jirisys

01-30-2011, 00:05

Molinaargh

01-30-2011, 00:19

Disbanding the fleet was a bad decision. It should have been used to attack the Macedonian fleet. And now we can't ship reinforcements from Rhodes to Athens until we build another ship.

What's the point of having advisers if you're going to make unilateral decisions? I give up....
I disbanded the fleet during the first 3 seasons, in which I played by my own will to get the game in a position where I felt would be better to start the participation system, and also because I wanted a good-looking update with screenshots and everything to start it off.

It was not a bad decision, in my opinion, as the Macedonian ships don't mean any harm. Plus, with the current debt/small income we can't pump units out of 4 different cities (Rhodos, Korinthos, Sparte and Athenai), and there were only 2 crappy units in Rhodes, one of which I also disbanded and left only 1 as the city garrison. My decision can't have been so wrong since Drag0nUL was also going to suggest disbanding the ships himself.

I do hope you keep reading this AAR and continue to participate, I appreciate your presence here.

And thanks to everyone else who's been participating, keep going! :yes:

Arthur, king of the Britons

01-30-2011, 00:51

I AGREE with jirisys motion.

jirisys

01-30-2011, 04:04

I AGREE with jirisys motion.

Corrected it for you :wink:

~Jirisys (Hint: Agreeing is with green)

Molinaargh

01-30-2011, 04:04

271 BC

Athenian orders:
-Improve trading ports in Athens.
-Try to stop the Spartans from marching through Athenian land.
-Try to convince the Spartans to lend some men to the Athenian army.
-Besiege Mytilene.

Spartan orders:
-Separate the Spartan forces from the Alliance Army.
-Recruit Archers and Horsemen in Sparta to reinforce the Spartan army.

https://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5154/001vxu.jpg
After the Koinon Hellenon meeting in Korinthos in the winter of 272 BC, the men returned to their own cities.

https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5917/002kvuj.jpg
Akrotatos Agiados got married in Sparta, but then moved back to Korinthos to perform his duties as Hegemon of the Alliance. Chremonides joined the Eleusian Mysteries, gaining political allies in Athens and throughout the Hellenic cities.

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6988/003nar.jpg
In Sparte, as per council order, Archers were recruited. These archers would not reinforce the Alliance army, though, but the Spartan army...

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/66/004ho.jpg
...which was formed by detaching many Spartan men from the Alliance army. Eudamidas, the lesser Spartan King, was to lead the Spartans while Areus led the Allies. But the Spartan Army was still weak and required new recruits, particularly archers and horsemen. The Spartans found there were no good horsemen to be trained in their own city, and that hiring mercenaries of these sort would be far too expensive.

https://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5556/005tz.jpg
In order to acquire the mounted troops, the Spartans came to the Athenians. The Athenians, in their place, wanted to strengthen their army, and suggested that they'd train a number of horsemen for the Spartans in exchange of the Athenian troops that were in the Alliance Army. Remembering the orders of his council of the necessity of the mounted forces, Areus accepted the deal and sent some of the Alliance's men to the Athenians.

https://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1273/006ze.jpg
Chremonides was glad the Spartans would not only refrain from marching through Attike, but they would also lend some men from the Alliance Army to the Athenian forces.

https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2701/007uns.jpg
Some Athenian hoplites and skirmishers went back to their city, where they joined Chremonides for the siege of Chalkis (there was no fleet to take the men all the way to Mytilene).

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3842/008rsf.jpg

https://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9885/009zg.jpg
The Athenians kept their promise during the siege and sent the Spartans a small band of horsemen.

https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9205/010ns.jpg
In Sparta, archers were trained.

https://img401.imageshack.us/img401/716/011qgz.jpg
The Spartan Army grew strong, even stronger than the Alliance Army.

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9485/012qg.jpg
Meanwhile, the Koinon Hellenon recieved news of distant Hellenes allies who had been attacked by Pontos.

https://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8357/013us.jpg

https://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7898/014cld.jpg
Immediatly war was declared on the aggressors.

https://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8093/015eq.jpg
By the end of the year, Chalkis was under siege. The Macedonians desperately tried to send men to support the city, but did so in a disorganized way. These macedonians were now in the coast of Chalkis and near Athens. The Spartan Army and the Alliance Army stood ground by Korinthos.

It is time for the councils of Sparta and Athens to reunite again to decide the next moves of each city.

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenian Council session is now open to decide what must be done in the next year, 270BC.

jirisys

01-30-2011, 04:21

Drag0nUL

01-30-2011, 07:52

I AGREE with Jirisys's motion.

The_Blacksmith

01-31-2011, 00:02

and propose a ceasefire with Basileion ton Pontos, so that they do not imagine our intentions.

I DISAGREE with this half of jirisys' motion, Sinope is our allied! we cant turn our backs on them in public!

Molinaargh

01-31-2011, 00:26

I DISAGREE with this half of jirisys' motion, Sinope is our allied! we cant turn our backs on them in public!
Do you propose anything instead?

jirisys

01-31-2011, 01:45

I DISAGREE with this half of jirisys' motion, Sinope is our allied! we cant turn our backs on them in public!

I meant that we should liberate it from the pontic people, since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time before it fell to pontic hands.

~Jirisys ()

Populus Romanus

01-31-2011, 02:10

We should let the Army of Sparta and the Army of the Alliance to march through our lands in order to engage the spread out Makedonians and capture the vulnerable Demetrias. And how exactly will we be able to take Mytilene if we disbanded our navy? We must levy a new one.

jirisys

01-31-2011, 04:39

I PROPOSE we must hire some pirates (Lemboi) either in Rhodos or Athenai, so we can, first, capture Mytilene and also make a hybrid assault on Sinope when it is captured since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time.

We should let the Army of Sparta and the Army of the Alliance to march through our lands in order to engage the spread out Makedonians and capture the vulnerable Demetrias. And how exactly will we be able to take Mytilene if we disbanded our navy? We must levy a new one.

I have everything covered

Edit:

I PROPOSE the author should not allow any member of sparta to propose in OUR assembly and vice-versa, by putting their names on the first post.

~Jirisys ()

jirisys

01-31-2011, 04:49

diomede

01-31-2011, 04:54

I have everything covered

Edit:

I PROPOSE the author should not allow any member of sparta to propose in OUR assembly and vice-versa, by putting their names on the first post.

~Jirisys ()

Probably a good idea. I'll just spy, er, I mean browse this forum, like you are over there. :P
(I do hang out here a bit though, mainly post there though to be fair)

jirisys

01-31-2011, 04:55

Yeah, but you shouldn't deceive the assembly by being trying to push the spartan agenda here :clown:

~Jirisys (I don't mind spying though...)

Populus Romanus

01-31-2011, 05:15

But why is it a bad idea to levy a fleet? A fleet is crucial to the success of the Alliance. We need to have a fleet to capture Mitylene, save Sinope, and there is no way we can allow the Makedonians to control the sea.

You can't kill me! THIS IS SPARTA! I grab your blade with my bare hands and twist it backwards to make it useless! (Plus, I am just as much an Orgah as a Centerite, albiet a lower postcount. Which means that I both Athenian and Spartan. Is that possible? No. In that case, I am really a Rhodian, secretly spying on you both!) And you're one to talk, after you were spying on us Spartans. You are lucky we did not kick you into the Garbage Disposal Of Death. Muwahahaha!

jirisys

01-31-2011, 05:18

But why is it a bad idea to levy a fleet? A fleet is crucial to the success of the Alliance.

You can't kill me! THIS IS SPARTA! I grab your blade with my bare hands and twist it backwards to make it useless! (Plus, I am just as much an Orgah as a Centerite, albiet a lower postcount.)

And you're one to talk, after you were spying on us Spartans. You are lucky we did not kick you into the Garbage Disposal Of Death. Muwahahaha!

I proposed to hire some pirates, why can't anybody see that??? :inquisitive:

Yeah, I don't mind you coming here and spying, but don't propose legislation when you pledged alliegance to sparta already...

~Jirisys (You like Star Wars eh?:clown:)

Hotseat_User

01-31-2011, 11:19

zhis will be good i guess. Nice idea Molin!

I propose: Pay (move_char...) some pirates to ship a small athenian skirimish-force to Lesbos. If these men fight like true hellenes and the Myrthilenes(sp?) are of true hellen blood too, they will have sucess.

Further besiege Chalkis 'till they surrender and let the garrision walk home in peace so we can show our democratic mercy.

And: let the Strategos defend the vulnerable borders (north attika and Thermyphilae(sp?)) against makedon forces.

Civillian H_U has spoken :smile:

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-31-2011, 11:44

I disbanded the fleet during the first 3 seasons, in which I played by my own will to get the game in a position where I felt would be better to start the participation system, and also because I wanted a good-looking update with screenshots and everything to start it off.

It was not a bad decision, in my opinion, as the Macedonian ships don't mean any harm. My decision can't have been so wrong since Drag0nUL was also going to suggest disbanding the ships himself.

Maintaining the fleet wouldn't have cost much money, since at least two-thirds of the ships would have been sunk in battle during the first year of the campaign. And the Macedonian ships hopefully would have all been sunk.

The Macedonian ships indeed aren't much threat - but ONLY because we are 'exploiting' the stupidity of the AI to do anything meaningful with them.

If Macedon was controlled by a human player, he would now send one Macedonian ship to each of our main ports, Rhodes, Athens, and Corinth, and blockade them. Our economy would be crippled, spiralling us into endless debt. And without ships of our own, and no money, there would be nothing we could do about it unless we disbanded most of our army to pay for a new fleet.

That's why, just for the purposes of realistic roleplaying, I would have preferred not to disband the fleet. Koinon Hellenon would never have done that in reality. Rhodes and Athens were both completely economically dependent on control of the sea historically.

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-31-2011, 12:19

I meant that we should liberate it from the pontic people, since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time before it fell to pontic hands.

~Jirisys ()

Not necessarily. Pontus has more men and superb cavalry, but Sinope has infantry of higher quality. Also Pontic phalangites are not very good at assaults. Sinope may manage to drive off the Pontic army without help.

Vaginacles

01-31-2011, 13:21

Walle

01-31-2011, 13:44

I AGREE with Vaginacles. We can't afford to be too passive, and Epeiros would be a valuable ally, both in military terms as help against Makedonia, and economically, if we get trade rights as well.

Also, I PROPOSE that we start trading with the naval powers to the west, Karthadast and Roma.

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-31-2011, 13:58

I AGREE with all three of Vaginacles' proposals.

Vaginacles

01-31-2011, 15:00

I AGREE with Walle's proposal

jirisys

01-31-2011, 20:23

I PROPOSE that Athen's army assault Chalkis immediately. Euboea is a wealthy province that would provide us with the money and manpower we desperately need for the defense of Sinopes and the conquest of Myiles. We do not need the allied Army marching through Attika to assault such a weak city, Let them deal with the Macedonian threat in Boetia and Thessaly.

Thus I PROPOSE that we allow them to cross the Isthmus of Cornith ONLY if to invade Thessaly.

I DISAGREE with Jirisy's strategy of passivity, we ought not to allow the macedonians to regain the initiative and bring superior forces upon us, an aggressive assault on macedonia will catch them unaware, especially since the Macedonian King's eye is not on Thessaly or Euboea, but on Pella against the mighty Pyrrhus. He would not expect an incursion by greek troops into his homeland, and if he did what could he do to stop both Greece and Eprius?

Therefore, i also PROPOSE we seek an alliance with Eprius so that the Macedonian king's fall will be inevitable.

You really don't read, I specifically said that the allied army not to march upon our lands only for defense. We haven't prohibited the spartans to cross Corinth. just Attike. We haven't asked for them to siege chalkis, the can't because of our agreement. What passivity? I ordered an attack on Chalkis, it's besieged, build a fleet, Mytilene (not Myiles), then try to help the Sinopeans, that's passivity for you? I said we should ask for trade rights with the epeirotai, but, point taken, an alliance will be better.

I AGREE with Vaginacles' proposals I, II & IV (because it's the same thing I said).

I AGREE with Walle's proposal.

I DISAGREE with Vaginacles' proposal III because I never stated such things, and it is actually the opposite of what I said.

~Jirisys (please read and say which proposals you disagree or agree with, makes it much clearer)

jirisys

01-31-2011, 20:37

I PROPOSE we must levy some more hoplites, from Athens, so that it may defend her and/or help the besiegers.
I PROPOSE we must make the Makedonian army to attack us, so whe have the upper hand in defense, and destroy their army and make their city capitulate.
I PROPOSE we must hire some pirates (Lemboi) either in Rhodos or Athenai, so we can, first, capture Mytilene and also make a hybrid assault on Sinope when it is captured since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time.
I PROPOSE, since the spartans have been so understanding, we must allow them to traverse to Attike, but only the Ally army and only to defend Athenai (as an excuse so we have more men for the siege and consequent invasions).
I PROPOSE we must acquire trade rights with the Epeirotai, and propose a ceasefire with Basileion ton Pontos, so that they do not imagine our intentions.
I PROPOSE we must ask Moolinaargh not to reveal our secret objectives in the Spartan assembly and vice-versa :grin:.

I meant that we should liberate it from the pontic people, since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time before it fell to pontic hands.

~Jirisys ()

I already said what everything is proposing... I'm guessing that counts as agreeing (say Civilian H_U said the same thing I did, Vaginacles too) besides, there's no change in my proposals and his...

Also clarifying, no army besides the athenian army can traverse Attike, I proposed a freer approach, but still with heavy restrictions.

~Jirisys (Please do an update soon, and clarify if you are proposing and what, Civilian H_U's proposal wasn't clear at first)

Molinaargh

01-31-2011, 23:05

The council session for 270BC is now over. An update will be made soon.

Thanks for your participation, guys!

Vaginacles

02-01-2011, 00:34

You said we must make the macedonians attack us, which implies that we let them attack our besieging army, which i am against. We cannot FORCE macedonia into battle unless we play the role of the attacker. We must not forget that macedonia controls the seas and can reinforce euboea at any time, thus the sooner we take the city, the better it is for the safety of Athens. Macedonia may decide to take advantage of our poorly garrisoned polis and may plan to attack Athens while our army is off campaigning, this is clearly unfavorable.

Also, i disagree with allowing the spartans to enter Attica to defend us, it is better if they engage in an offensive war outside of attica, to spare our fields from devastation and prevent a depletion of our grain reserves. No the allied army must not enter Attica and defend, they must do what spartans do best and fight offensively in Thessaly. That is what is best for Athens.

As for your proposal to hire pirates for the invasion of Myile, what will become of them afterwards? are we to let them free to harrass merchant vessels that carry our goods to and fro the Agean? Or should we break the word of friends and enslave them, and commandeer their vessals? No, Jirisy, we cannot afford to ally ourselves with brigands and outlaws, not if you want Athen's honor to remain intacted after this ordeal. Would you have the Spartans call us Brigands and outlaws because we were too weak to build our own Triremes, having to rely on scum to do what our forefathers were masters of?

Molinaargh

02-01-2011, 01:18

270 BC

Athenian orders:
-Attack the Macedonians immediatly, attempting to capture Chalkis (Yes).
-Hire a fleet to eventually attack Asia Minor (Not yet).
-Only allow the Alliance Army to pass through Attika (Yes).
-Trade rights and Alliance with the Epeirotai (Yes)
-Trade rights with Karthadast and Roma (Not yet).
-Ceasefire with Basileion ton Pontos (Yes).

Spartan orders:
-Engage the Macedonians to the north of Attika with the Alliance Army (Yes).
-Besiege Demetrias if possible (Not yet).
-Improve recruitment in Sparta, attempting not to rely on Athenian cavalry (Yes).
-Strenghten alliance with Corinth (Yes).
-Trade rights with Epeiros (Yes).
-Fleet should be built only in Rhodes (Not yet).
-Peace with Pontos (Yes).

(I'm sorry if you feel your orders deserved to but didn't make to the final list, some orders were conflicting and I had to leave them out. I also think it's nice to both cities to have a summary on what the other one is doing, allows for more interaction rather than each doing their own thing.)

https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7650/001pva.jpg
By the end of the winter, Chremonides recieved orders from Athens to assault Chalkis.

https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3260/002gqa.jpg
He did so, but against his will.

https://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8887/003ets.jpg
The Macedonians had sent reinforcements, and now outnumbered the Athenians by a lot.

https://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3899/004vrs.jpg
But the Athenians, even outnumbered, were ready to fight.

https://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5531/005nv.jpg

https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/7407/006ck.jpg

https://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2852/007sf.jpg
In a bloody battle, the Athenian army was almost completely wiped out, but managed to conquer Chalkis.

https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/481/008ota.jpg

https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6262/008beb.jpg
Later, after the region was pacified Chremonides would write to the Athenian Council asking what kind of relationship Athens and the Alliance would have with Chalkis.

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9868/009asa.jpg
Meanwhile, in Asia Minor, a treaty was signed with Pontos.

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9910/011jqy.jpg

https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8962/012dyi.jpg
Back in Athenai, a small Macedonian army besieged the city.

https://img705.imageshack.us/img705/469/013cu.jpg
Due to the almost total elimination of the Athenian forces in the siege of Chalkis and their necessity to remain in the city as garrison, there was no opposition to the Alliance Army, led by a Spartan, to march through Attike, as the council ordered - and while at it, defend Athens.

https://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2899/014gnp.jpg
Since the Spartan army wouldn't go anywhere, Areus brought some of the Spartans with him in the Alliance Army. The Alliance Army attacked the besiegers of Athens, who were not many. Certainly the Macedonians expected the Athenian garrison to be low on men, but they did not expect the Alliance Army led by Sparta.

https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4829/015ni.jpg

https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1332/016ngs.jpg

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2536/017ri.jpg

https://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8254/018it.jpg
As agreed upon by both Athens and Sparta, the Epeirotes were seeked out.

https://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6376/019ka.jpg
And a profitable deal was made with the son of Pyrrhos.

https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2011/020ujp.jpg
Hopefully the army of Pyrrhos would help the Hellenes in the future.

https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5857/021nxt.jpg
In Korinthos, the Spartan Hegemon ordered public buildings and strengthened the relations between Sparta and Corinth.

https://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7357/022p.jpg
Although there was still the matter of the nature of these relations.

https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6903/023iq.jpg
In Sparta itself, the military recruitment structure was improved, as ordered by the Spartan council.

https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2682/024zg.jpg
In the North, the Macedonians besieged Serdike.

https://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4697/025yw.jpg
And in Rhodes, Agathokles died of old age.

https://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5106/026bbq.jpg
This is the situation of the Koinon Hellenon as of now, winter of the year 270BC.

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenian Boule session is now open to decide what must be done in 269BC.

Populus Romanus

02-01-2011, 02:18

Nice! Up Sparte.

jirisys

02-01-2011, 04:58

It didn't go excellent, but it went well.

I PROPOSE we build a democratic Kleroucheia on Chalkis so that our Constitution may reach even further, with even more support.
I PROPOSE, since vaginacles pointed out my barbarism, that we build our own fleet, proud in the sea, of pentekonteroi.
I PROPOSE that we levy more hoplites and build trade ports, farms or roads to increase our income and be able to hire proud volunteer Hoplitai of the mighty city of Athenai.
I PROPOSE we besiege and assault Mytilene, having control over the aegean an with more support for new elections.
I PROPOSE we ally and trade with many friendly kingdoms that suport us, of course, presenting ourseleves as athenians, so our treasury will grow thanks to us.
I PROPOSE we make an army greater than the alliance and we go to support our bosphorean, euxinean, and taurikean allies, so that they may resist the onslaught that greedy kings want to bring to them.
I PROPOSE we make a camp in Attike several stadia from the city, so the Ally army may camp there and protect our city, since the spartans are such fierce warriors, we will give them many battles so they are happy with us, and we could give them some levy from Chalkis to support them, uniting the alliance more, of course controllably, so we have the power to stop them if they want to start another peloponesan war.

~Jirisys ()

Drag0nUL

02-01-2011, 09:10

I AGREE with jirisys proposals I, III, V and VII.
I somewhat DISAGREE with proposal II. Macedonians are still strong so I believe fleet shouldn't be a priority until we've raised a land army strong enough to oppose them. This also makes proposals IV and VI a low priority for me, since they are not achievable without a fleet (I agree with them in the long run, just I don't feel they should be a priority ATM).

Walle

02-01-2011, 09:46

I AGREE with Drag0nUL. I believe that we need a stronger economy and land force before we start building a fleet. Taking control of the sea and Anatolia is not our top priority.

Oh, and one more thing. Jirisys, regarding your sixth proposal, is anyone allowed to control an army larger than the Alliance army of the Strategos Autokrator? If I remember correctly, no one has that power.

Drag0nUL

02-01-2011, 10:07

Oh, and one more thing. Jirisys, regarding your sixth proposal, is anyone allowed to control an army larger than the Alliance army of the Strategos Autokrator? If I remember correctly, no one has that power.

From my understanding: the strategos can control up to 20 units, the polemarchos up to 12, and other generals up to 8. I don't think there's anything stopping us from having a 12 units athenian army if the alliance army has let's say 11 units.

Walle

02-01-2011, 11:10

From my understanding: the strategos can control up to 20 units, the polemarchos up to 12, and other generals up to 8. I don't think there's anything stopping us from having a 12 units athenian army if the alliance army has let's say 11 units.

Ok thanks. Well in any case, I DISAGREE with Jirisys' proposal to create an army larger than the Alliance army, since I think that would give an image of us Athenians as people who are only seeking glory for ourselves, rather than for the Alliance as a whole, which is what I personally stand for.

Instead, I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army, if possible.

Octavian I

02-01-2011, 11:41

I AGREE with Walle.

If we want to rule Greece we will have to work together to a certain degree.

Vaginacles

02-01-2011, 12:22

Walle

02-01-2011, 14:48

It is right and proper that the people of Euboea govern themselves in the manner that suits both our interest and theirs. A democratic regime is a must for the new chalkisians.

As long term objectives, I agree with all of Jirisy's proposals, however i believe that in the short term, better options are avaliable for us.

FIRST, i PROPOSE that we upgrade our barracks to accomodate larger, and more well equipped hoplites. In our foreign expeditions, we cannot rely on Levy's to engage in complex sieges or tactical maneuvers. It is thus in our best interest, at the expense of the state, to have a standing army of soldiers DRILLED in militart combat.

SECOND, i PROPOSE that we keep what is left of our levies as garrisons, and once we have built the new Barracks, we commission a fleet and set sail for Myilte

THIRD, I DISAGREE with Walle's suggestion of weakening our army for the sake of the alliance. Do not forget that this alliance is temporarly, it exists so long as Hellas is threatened by kings like Pyrrhus or Antonious. Once Eprius and Macedonia is eliminated, we would be in a weak state if we have no strong standing army. We would also be weak if we are seen as unable to provide protection compared to the Spartans, who are now overlords of Corinth and soon to be Demetrias. This is why we need to rebuild our Athenian Empire, as a strong city can remain independant and free, while a weak one must suffer under the boots of a greater. It is IMPERATIVE that we establish a position of equal or greater standings relative to Sparta, so that the spartans would have reason to fear transgressing against Athen's interest.

Let us not forget, that the allied army is LED by sparta, and all the glory that is gained in battle goes to the Spartans. The allied hoplites are merely instruments used by the Spartan King to increase the Prestige of himself and Sparta. Each victory he attains is more proof of Spartan superiority in military matters, we must not allow Sparta to be more powerful then they already are.

This alliance is only temporary? I appreciate your enthusiasm for role-playing, but let's stay within the boundaries of the game mechanics. There isn't going to be a Peloponnesian war, and the faction is, and will remain as "Koinon Hellenon" not "Arche Athenai" or whatever. This is an alliance of Greek city-states, and will remain as such.

Regarding the "glory" thing. Yes, the Alliance army is lead by a Spartan, for the moment. Perhaps in the next elections an Athenian will be elected Strategos Autokrator, and then we will get our glory. But the most important thing isn't necessarily the leader. The soldiers also get a portion of the glory of battle, and if Athenians are included in the Alliance army, Athens will also get a portion of said glory. However, glory isn't the most important thing. The vital thing, which I believe should be our top priority at any time, is the survival of the Alliance, and I believe that strengthening the Alliance army with Athenians will support that cause.

Vaginacles

02-01-2011, 14:54

As much as i enjoyed reading your OOC critique, i think it would be best if you critiqued it IC so that we can establish a war party and a peace party dialogue going on. Of course i know we can't dissolve the KH, but nevertheless we should approach this AAR in the manner in which Athens would have behaved. I am pretty much going on Thucydide's peloponnesian war as a model on how Athen's would have reacted.

Besides, what fun is it if all we did was help the alliance win?

IC: Individual men receives individual glory, but glory to the state is given by the leader of the expedition. Our victory at Pylos and Potidaea during the Second Peloponnesian war was Athenian, even though many of our hoplites and peltest were of allied or thracian origin. It is also clear that the Spartans have made no request for AID, so why should we sacrifice our security for help that they do not need? It is in our best interest to consolidate our recent conquest of Euboea and build up our army so it is capable of defending our homeland, Then we can travel to Myile and liberate them from the macedonian yoke.

Walle

02-01-2011, 15:08

Fair enough :smiley2:. I still wish to see the Alliance succeed as an alliance though, instead of a fight for individual power. But that's just me, I guess I'm just a sucker for cooperation :laugh4:

Vaginacles

02-01-2011, 15:11

I love conflict too much to see a cooperative lovefest between athens and sparta :)

Walle

02-01-2011, 15:19

Alright then, we'll just have to see were this alliance ends up. Disagreements and different points of view in military matters have always led to interesting results.:wink:

jirisys

02-01-2011, 19:38

Ok thanks. Well in any case, I DISAGREE with Jirisys' proposal to create an army larger than the Alliance army, since I think that would give an image of us Athenians as people who are only seeking glory for ourselves, rather than for the Alliance as a whole, which is what I personally stand for.

Instead, I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army, if possible.

No, It's so we can defend ourselves without the need of the ally army and have military autonomy to campaign in, either the pontos euxinos, or makedonia. We will support it, but we need to be able to mantain ourseleves without the need for someone else, that would make the spartans think we're weak, and install even more of their proposals without our support and coerce us, we must not let our guard down, I don't want the alliance to fail or to subjugate sparta either...

~Jirisys ()

Walle

02-01-2011, 19:57

No, It's so we can defend ourselves without the need of the ally army and have military autonomy to campaign in, either the pontos euxinos, or makedonia. We will support it, but we need to be able to mantain ourseleves without the need for someone else, that would make the spartans think we're weak, and install even more of their proposals without our support and coerce us, we must not let our guard down, I don't want the alliance to fail and we subjugate sparta either...

~Jirisys ()

I agree, we do need some military of our own to defend ourselves with, just not necessarily anything larger than the Alliance army, that is, after all, the "main army" so to speak. I do still personally care more about the campaign of the Alliance army though, then our own potential campaign somewhere else, around Pontus euxinus for example. In conclusion, I still hold reinforcing the Alliance army as a top priority, after we create some kind of military force so we can defend ourselves to some degree of course.

jirisys

02-01-2011, 20:16

I agree, we do need some military of our own to defend ourselves with, just not necessarily anything larger than the Alliance army, that is, after all, the "main army" so to speak. I do still personally care more about the campaign of the Alliance army though, then our own potential campaign somewhere else, around Pontus euxinus for example. In conclusion, I still hold reinforcing the Alliance army as a top priority, after we create some kind of military force so we can defend ourselves to some degree of course.

We don't need to have just one army, we can spread it around in the pontos or makedonia, we should build a big enough force to campaign in the euxinos, but still have good protection and attacking forces in mainland hellas, We should attack demetrias if the spartans take Thermon, so they don't go around spreading their tyranneia, we must go and spread the enlightened word of Platon, Aristoteles, Clistenes, etc... So our influence grows higher, but helping our hellenic allies on the pontos is priority.

~Jirisys ()

fireblade

02-01-2011, 20:46

Walle

02-01-2011, 21:07

Fellow Counsellors,
Might I ask, not for this year, but for the future, that we keep in mind the fate of our brothers on Krete. Surely acquiring such a base of operations would be usefull to control the acces to the aegean. If we are to build a fleet, why not set it to the task of taking that island first?

Agreed, once we create a fleet, the first course of action should be to take Krete.

And Jirisys: I agree with everything in your last post, I just lived under the thought that we don't have enough mnai to support several armies. But as long as the economy allows us, I'm totally with you.

jirisys

02-01-2011, 21:34

Agreed, once we create a fleet, the first course of action should be to take Krete.

And Jirisys: I agree with everything in your last post, I just lived under the thought that we don't have enough mnai to support several armies. But as long as the economy allows us, I'm totally with you.

Of course, It's progressive, two units at a time (Chalkis and Athenai)... Of Kretai, we must not forget them, but removing Mytilene will bring great trade and cotrol of the lower Aegae.

~Jirisys (Having a fight at the Spartiatai Agoras)

Unintended BM

02-01-2011, 22:24

I agree with everything jirisys said. The Spartans have the main force, so they can deal with the mainland Makedonians. There's no point in training an army and giving it to Sparta while we sit back in Athens and do nothing. It would help the alliance more if we went out and liberated Mytilene, Sinope, and Kydonia from the various barbarians controlling them. It would bring great wealth to Athens and the alliance. Whenever the money is available, a navy should be the next priority.

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-01-2011, 22:43

I AGREE with the recent motions regarding the rebuilding of our (Athenian) army and fleet + the one about paying Krete a visit.

I PROPOSE the author start using the greek names for settlements. :clown:

Really though I think that would help with the roleplaying-immersion.

Also I PROPOSE that we enter an alliance with the Ptolemaio, in addition to entering a trade agreement with them.

T'was I while since I played EB so if KH and Ptolemaio starts off as allies and already have a trade agreement then ignore this proposal

jirisys

02-01-2011, 22:58

The spartan assembly, seems they have renounced their athenian advisor's seat (me).

Ban Populus Romanus, he is no longer welcome in this assembly.

~Jirisys (This is getting interesting)

Molinaargh

02-01-2011, 23:00

This session of the Athenian council is now dismissed.

jirisys

02-01-2011, 23:02

*whistles to his slave so he gets his horse*

Well then Molin, may our decisions be wise and fruitful.

~Jirisys ()

Unintended BM

02-02-2011, 00:40

I think the author should give us financial info each update so we can better decide what to do.

Populus Romanus

02-02-2011, 00:59

The spartan assembly, seems they have renounced their athenian advisor's seat (me).

Ban Populus Romanus, he is no longer welcome in this assembly.

~Jirisys (This is getting interesting)

Bah! I'd like to see you Athenians kick out a Spartan.
But really, I think you Athenai need to reconsider this whole "no Spartans in Attike" buisiness. It isn't doing anyone any good, and is detrimentaly to everyone. Plus, it is completely pointless. Seriously, what do expect the Spartan army to do, sit around in Peloponnesos for the duration of the entire game? Honestly, if Molinaargh had abided by your instructions, Athenai would have been taken and you all would have been executed by the Makedonians. This speaks for itself, I believe. REPEAL THIS LAW!

Molinaargh

02-02-2011, 01:40

269 BC

Athenian orders:
-Create a fleet (Yes).
-Establish a democratic Kleroucheia in Chalkis (Yes).
-Levy more hoplites (Yes).
-Improve the city of Athenai (Not yet).
-Establish more trade (Yes).

Spartan orders:
-Besiege and assault Demetrias (Yes, but...).
-Type II government in Korinthos (Yes).
-Recruit infantry in Sparta (Yes).
-Athenians not welcome in the Spartan Council.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/17/001wwo.jpg
:laugh4: The situation isn't good between Sparta and Athens, as the councilors can't reach any agreements when they meet. Can the Alliance survive like this? (I'll let you decide who is who in the image!)

https://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3980/002ru.jpg https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4185/003xba.jpg
Korinthos and Chalkis are incorporated in the Koinon Hellenon, joining as free poleis. They do, however, remain more loyal to those who liberated them from Macedonian rule. Korinthos is grateful to Sparte as Chalkis is to Athenai.

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1104/004jw.jpg
The Alliance Army, led by the Spartan King Areus, marched to besiege Demetrias.

https://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2272/005brn.jpg

https://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7600/006bd.jpg
Everything seemed to be going well. But then...

https://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9994/007fqr.jpg
Makedonian reinforcements arrived to help Kalos Argeades! Areus thought to himself, "what would an Athenian do?". The answer was "retreat", so he did the opposite. The Alliance Army, led by Areus, stood ground and prepared to defend.

https://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1839/008yjw.jpg

https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9620/009lle.jpg

https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2087/010upv.jpg

https://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5448/011br.jpg

https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3301/012vh.jpg

https://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9402/013ir.jpg
Those who advised more caution when attacking the Macedonians further north were right. Only a few men from the Alliance Army survived, including the Strategos himself.

https://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6184/015rv.jpg
The Alliance Army was devastated. Areus demanded reinforcements from both the Spartan and Athenian armies as the Alliance Army was far too weak. Since this was predicted in the Constitution of the Koinon, the reinforcements were sent, even though an objection to this was unlikely given the extreme sitation.

https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1521/62256704.jpg
Reinforcements came from Sparte...

https://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2064/016mi.jpg
From Athenai...

https://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1707/017td.jpg
From the Spartan Army...

https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2138/018kh.jpg
And from the Athenian Army.

https://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1494/019vjq.jpg
Before some of them could arrive, the Macedonians took the opportunity to destroy the Hellenes once and for all. They underestimated the Koinon, though, sending only enough men to outnumber the Hellenes, men led by nobody important.

https://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2442/020cc.jpg

https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5035/021ror.jpg
This victory softened the impact of the Spartan King's defeat, but the Athenians would remind the Spartans that they only won when Areus had to call for Athenian reinforcements.

https://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9283/022md.jpg
The situation was calm once again. The Macedonians stayed in Thessalia for now, but they could march south to Attika at any moment...

https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1549/023dw.jpg
It might have been only a political move to gain the favor of the Athenians, but in 269 Akrotatos of Sparta declared his worship to Athena. At this time, Chremonides was doing well as the governor of Chalkis, helping the city in Koinon matters.

https://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4989/024fx.jpg
Akrotatos wasn't doing bad in Korinthos himself.

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9830/025yyc.jpg
Our spy reported that a large garrison protected Demetrias, while a small skirmishing force scouted around Thessalia.

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9038/026wh.jpg
Back in Athens, the creation of an Athenian Fleet was ordered.

https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1033/027euv.jpg
And in the Roman city of Arretium, a trade agreement was proposed to the Romans, who accepted it.

https://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1886/028ly.jpg

https://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7888/029uv.jpg

https://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4940/030xt.jpg
The Alliance Army recieved a few more reinforcements from Sparta, and so did the Spartan Army itself. But is it enough to defend from the Macedonians, should they march southwards again?

(I tried some stuff on the screenshots, I think some of them came out too hard on the eyes. Let me know what you think).

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png

This Polis Council must now decide what has to be done in 268BC. I'd like to remind you that this will be the last Polis Council before the Koinon Elections, where a new Strategos will be elected, as well as an Hegemon and a Polemarchos.

Populus Romanus

02-02-2011, 05:05

Athenai, I am sure that by now you have heard the terrible news that I, official Ambassodor of Sparte to the Athenai, must discuss with you. I believe that power over both the militaries of Athenai and Sparte must be consalidated under the Strategos for the remaining cycle until elections, due the disasterous defeat which we have suffered. Quite frankly, the forces of our poleis alone, without mutual support, is simply too little to do absolutely anything. If we are to maintain any sort of military capacity, the Army of the Koinoin (which for all effective puroposed does not exist anymore) must be officially joined to the Army of Athenai, under a single command. After the next cycle is through, then my Army of Sparte and your Army of Athenai will officially split again, as both of our poleis will have had time to retrain our respective militaries and bring them up to stength where they actually may be an obstacle to any invader. I, the official Ambassador of Sparte to Athenai, sincerely hope you consider and accept this motion, for the good of us all.

jirisys

02-02-2011, 05:17

As we are allowed to create characters...

Councilor Leumenes, very young, but very idealistic, and also very bloodthristy; he is a few of the somatophylakai of Chremonides, a philosopher, reminds the assembly of Aristoteles, or Socrates with comparable wit. Needless to say, he owes the Polis his life, as a free men, from the great demos; yet he is very passionate about the spartai, one of the reasons he is a bloodthristy animal; yet the spartans' lack of thoght and deliberation before one's actions disturbed him.

He stood up, without an inch of fear or respect to any spartan spy present.

"Fellow men, greek, athenian... Spartans... You have been brought a lesson, you see, your stubborness and recklessness has almost brought the WHOLE alliance to it's demise, the allied army, almost utterly crushed, you have weakened our capabilities to protect our own cities so the allied army can pick it's pieces up, because you threw them on the ground; but even beyond your lack of sight, stubborness, recklessness, and the troubles you have brought to this once proud and powerful alliance; if you, had not had the guts, and the idiocy of violating OUR orders, that you shall not pass Attike, only to defend it's polis, NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED; what does the Hegemon have to say about this? NOTHING, at least our polemarchos has spoken out this injustice, this violation of our sovereignity. Now we are weak, possibly unable to fend off a big army, because of your lack of foresight."

He stops and regains his breath, shouting has made him very angry and turned red. But he won't finish yet.

"And furthermore, they have banned all athenians from their assembly. No wonder they commited such... Such... S... There is no word on it that would make the mothers of our soldiers gasp in shock and awe, that an athenian would have to use such foul language. I'm astonished at the lack of... This is pointless, I see now..."

Some men in the assembly are noticeably angry, he marks their seat so he will know who is spying for Sparte.

"Our armies must be rebuilt, and our dead soldiers be handed to their mothers and spouses, we must make sure that this alliance stands in it's foot and we must ask our Kretai friends for help, if unwilling, we should hand out its Tyrannos and install Democracy, so that they can benefit the alliance, at least our actions will help us in the future. As this atrocity of law-breaking, reckless behavior, selfishness, egocentry, self-glorification, stubbornness, and all that that action contained must be punished, severly, without compromising our integrity in this alliance, which at best has become fragile, we must take radical action."

He ended his sentence there and sat down, not before passing a paper to the orator, which read:

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

He stood up again, saying:
"I know this will anger the spartans, but if they are willing to survive, they must sacrifice their ego, because we are as brave as them, didn't we destroy the traitorous Athenian and Achaemenid forces at Maraton? We must work together, and we tried, but it seems they didn't want to reason with us. We will see that if they are cooperative again, we shall work together, and not for our own glory or interest. I lived in Lakedaimon since I was a child, I admire it's soldiers, but they must also learn to our admire our wit."

He sat down and quietly looked at the pale faces of the spartan spies, once they saw what the athenians were capable of doing once their bold and "spartan-like" actions went wrong.

"You see know my spartan friends" - He said - "We also lose our limbs and blood, but not because of the enemy, but because of you."

The athenians themselves were still appaled and undescisive about if to agree with these radical reforms (mostly because they were said so firmly by such a young man, neither did they know if we was a great man, or a dumb one), or let the spartans be the end of them.

~Jirisys (Hegemon :crown:)

fireblade

02-02-2011, 06:43

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

Councillor Leumenes speaks wise words.

I, Glaucon, AGREE with the motions he brings forward.

Might I also add that I am deeply shocked with the news of a spartan commander fleeing the field. It is my express wish that this coward never command an army again, but should be given a chance to redeem himself in battle at a certain point.

I PROPOSE that the spartans allow the Athenian ambassador back in their city immediately, as they seem to need his guidance.

Populus Romanus

02-02-2011, 07:04

I PROPOSE that Jirisys be executed inside of the brazen bull for treason, espionage, and unconstitutional propositions that violate the treaties, and crimes against the Koinoin Hellenon.

If this demand is not met, Sparte will withdraw its ambassador from Athenai, dissolve the Koinoin, and declare war. We will also ally with Makedonia.

Muwahahaha!

fireblade

02-02-2011, 09:45

It would be best for the spartan ambassador not to make jokes now. A time of dire need is upon us, we must work together, or fall seperately. Bear in mind that it was the actions of your commander that got us in this place.

Walle

02-02-2011, 09:49

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

I DISAGREE with the first proposal. It's not fair that all Spartans should suffer for ones incompetence. They should have the same starting position in the elections as we have. I believe that only an individuals merits should count.
I partially AGREE with the second proposal. As long as that idiot Areus is in charge of the Alliance army, the army should not be allowed through Athenian lands. However, I believe that we should open our borders once a new Strategos Autokrator has been elected.
I AGREE with the third proposal.
I DISAGREE with the fourth proposal. I still believe that the Alliance army should represent the military might of the Alliance, and thus, should be reinforced whenever possible (which means after we have a decent army of our own). But not as long as Areus is in charge of it.
Regarding the fifth proposal. What do you mean by "councilors"?
I AGREE with the sixth proposal.
I AGREE with the seventh proposal.

The_Blacksmith

02-02-2011, 09:52

I PROPOSE that a council should garther information about this so called, treason, espionage, and unconstitutional propositions to justify thiese accusations on "Jirisys", and if prooven innocent "Populus Romanus" should have the punishment that he proposes on "Jirisys"

I AGREE with Jirisys's motion, if prooven he is innocent...

I AGREE with fireblade's motion

diomede

02-02-2011, 10:15

This Spartan would like to point out that Romanus has already been executed, so such an action against him would be difficult. :oops:
Kind of a shame the precautions I suggested prior to attacking Demetrias weren't taken, but c'est la vie We need a smaller army anyway, to save funds for your navy.

Drag0nUL

02-02-2011, 10:42

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

I DISAGREE with proposals II and IV. If we want to survive as independent poleis, we need to work together. Neither Athens or Sparta have the power at this point to stand alone agains Macedon.
I also DISAGREE with proposal I: Areus might have lost a battle, but he won many others. All men make mistakes. As long as this loss remains an isolated event, I say we keep supporting him as our chosen Strategos, until the end of his term.
I AGREE with the other proposals

I'd also like to suggest the following:
I PROPOSE we build a Barracks in Athens that would allow us to recruit Hoplitai. Too long have we sent our men to war with only minimum training and gear.
I also PROPOSE a thorough economic analysis of both city (Athens, Rhodes, Chalkis) and alliance level finances be conducted during the next year (I'd like to see the settlement details screen for each of the 3 and the faction financial report)

fireblade

02-02-2011, 10:53

I AGREE with dragonUl's proposals

On behalve of councillor Leumenes proposals II and IV, bear in mind the provisions of proposal V. If Sparta accepts the blame for this defeat, and concedes to post of Strategos to us, we will continue to support the alliance. Consider his proposals to be an ultimatum, in a way. I believe in the sense of cooperation, Sparta should accept the blame.

Titus Marcellus Scato

02-02-2011, 13:16

I'm surprised that Areus is still alive! A Spartan should return with his shield, or on it. Why did he ingloriously flee the field?

Areus can remain as Strategos, but he must redeem himself in our eyes. Not only by winning more battles, but by conspicuous personal heroism, constantly throwing himself and his bodyguard into the thickest fighting, being always the first to charge into battle regardless of personal danger. He must emulate his forefather Achilles from now on.

Molinaargh

02-02-2011, 16:16

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
This is beyond Athenian jurisdiction. This proposal could only be made during a Koinon session and then the Spartans would have to approve such a thing, as it is a change to the Koinon Constitution.

And by the time the Koinon session begins, Areus will step down from the position of Strategos, as his term of 4 years will have ended, and will not be able to be re-elected as stated in the Koinon Constitution.

All other proposals made so far are being compiled to be sent to Polemarchos Chremonides. This is the list so far:

Athenian orders:
-Alliance army under Areus not allowed to march through Attike (3 votes to 1).
-Recruit more men.
-Improve recruitment in Athenai.
-Improve the economy of Rhodes.
-Economic analysis of the cities and the Koinon to be made.
-Attack Kydonia if possible (I don't believe there is neither enough time nor men to do this).

There is still time to make changes.

fireblade

02-02-2011, 16:35

I have one more proposal to make.
As the alliance army will be unavailable to come to our aid, I PROPOSE to build a fort near Thermopylae in order to block Macedons from Demetrias entering Attika. I propose we garrison one unit of light skirmishers there, in order to give us time to rebuild our strength

Walle

02-02-2011, 16:39

Drag0nUL

02-02-2011, 16:42

I also AGREE with fireblade

Titus Marcellus Scato

02-02-2011, 17:03

I PROPOSE that we consider hiring mercenaries whenever they are available, in preference to recruiting our own citizens.

Hiring mercenaries is expensive in the initial purpose, but they cost no more in upkeep, and also hiring mercenaries leaves more tax-paying civilians in the city from whom we get our income. Reducing population is bad for taxation.

Also hiring mercenaries prevents Macedon hiring them instead, leaving their army smaller and ours larger.

fireblade

02-02-2011, 17:23

I DISAGREE with Titus Marcellus Scato's proposal. Not that there isn't merit in it, but I would rather have a full overview of our finances (as was already proposed) before hiring a band of thugs, that might as well turn on our city if they don't get adequately paid. Nevertheless, perhaps looking which mercenaries are looking for employment might be usefull, so the council can see what is available/needed to complement our armies. Therefore I PROPOSE that we make overtures to mercenaries (aka, check which ones are available), but refrain from hiring them for this year.

Unintended BM

02-02-2011, 17:35

I agree with everything jirisys has said. I also agree with fireblade's last proposal.

As for hiring mercenaries, I think it's fine to supplement our own Athenian troops with mercenaries, but to trust them to win our wars alone would be stupid. I agree with fireblade again. Nevermind what I just said, his is a better idea.

fireblade

02-02-2011, 18:17

On account of our recently constructed fleet, I PROPOSE that it maintains a defensive posture for now, defending the harbours of the koinon against possible blockades but not engaging in offensive operations otherwise.

jirisys

02-02-2011, 20:38

I DISAGREE with the first proposal. It's not fair that all Spartans should suffer for ones incompetence. They should have the same starting position in the elections as we have. I believe that only an individuals merits should count.
Regarding the fifth proposal. What do you mean by "councilors"?

Leumenes arrived late, his philosphy class carried him on, as he would not leave until he had to. Besides, he met with a beautiful woman, whom he spend some time with. As it appears he is growing up, and growing a proud beard on his chin too. Grabbed couselor Walle's note and proceeded to adress it.

"Fellow men, I see that we have been splitting with this radical changes, some against and some for, yet Areus the brave spartan commander, fled like a coward, what a shame to the alliance. All spartan men would rather fight to the death and destroy our armies than run and fight another day (which all spartans would not do), I see no joy in the fact that we cannot allow the Strategos not to go to spartan hands, yet, if only I would be allowed in the spartan assembly, then it would bring unity and vision to our next orders, to both cooperate in our survival. Yet the cowardice of the strategos should be handed by his own men, it shames me deeply. But it is true we need to work together, but if our own army is smaller than the allied one; who will give men to it? Who will reinforce it when time of most need? Who will defend our city if the army is not available? We need more men, levies are the only thing we have, as I said, pay a visit to the Kretai so we will have the resources to train volunteers, proud athenian men, bearing the proud and watchful eye on their shield."

He sat down, yet he forgot to add something.

"Fear not, my spartan friends, for you are welcome in this assembly, but you are no longer welcome to lead our men."

Councilors=Councilmen or Counselor

He could not bear the shame, he had renounced his childhood friends' fathers the right to lead the most powerful army in hellas. He went outside and wept in sorrow, for he was told his friend, Arkotelos, son of Solokes Lakedaimonios, died protecting Areus, before he fled like a coward, leaving him to his death. He would not leave the spartans to blame the athenians, or them (athenians) to help the spartans, unless it would be convenient for him.

~Jirisys ()

Populus Romanus

02-02-2011, 22:43

I do believe that the proposal to ban Spartans from election was just killed. After all, we Spartans would have to approve of it.

Molinaargh

02-02-2011, 23:27

This session is now over, an update will be made soon.

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 01:23

Athenian orders:
-Fort to be built in the north of Attike and a small garrison placed there (Yes).
-Alliance army under Areus not allowed to march through Attike (Yes).
-Recruit more men (Yes).
-Improve recruitment in Athenai (Not yet).
-Improve the economy of Rhodes (Not yet).
-Economic analysis of the cities and the Koinon to be made (Yes).
-Consult mercenary availability (Yes).

Spartan orders:
-Retrain the Army in Sparta (Yes).
-Merge the Alliance Army with the Spartan Army (Yes).

268 BC

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7453/001gxm.jpg
As per orders of the poleis, Chremonides built a fort to the north of Athens to block any Macedonian armies, while Areus left Attika, returning to Sparta to retrain the army.

https://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6557/002tlfq.jpg
Reinforcements were recruited in both Sparte and Athens.

https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1848/003tjv.jpg
In Sparte, the troops were heavily reinforced, in an attempt to bring back the Alliance Army to full strength.

https://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4428/004vcd.jpg
Akrotatos, currently governor of Korinthos, participated in the Olympic games, but failed to win anything.

https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7606/005bd.jpg
In that city, as well as in Chalkis, the new hellenic governments were fully instituted.

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8795/006ytk.jpg
The Koinon Hellenon was now composed of 5 independent poleis.

https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3599/007uon.jpg
Its treasury wasn't doing so well, especially since the retraining of the Alliance Army.

https://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9927/008pdb.jpg
Many mercenaries were available for hire, but the Alliance couldn't afford any of them. The Alliance currently owes money, having nothing in its coffers.

https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1223/009wx.jpg
The Athenian fort was eventually besieged by the Makedonians.

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2050/010nnu.jpg
In Athens, reinforcements kept being levied to help with a possible confrontation.

https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8030/011so.jpg
When the Makedonians attacked, the 20 Athenian skirmishers stood no chance.

https://img810.imageshack.us/img810/5691/012au.jpg

https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5641/013hf.jpg
Reinforcements were quickly levied once again, but...

https://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1800/014txe.jpg
...the Macedonians didn't take long to reach Athens after the fort fell. Athenai was besieged.

https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6608/015ixa.jpg
And Athenai was alone for now, as any army led by Areus was forbidden of entering Attike. He could easily ignore this order - it was an Athenian order and not a Koinon one - but with the current relations between the two cities, he much rather not help the Athenians. Either way, he was about to lose command of the Alliance Army. 4 years had passed, and it was time for the Koinon Elections, which would happen in this year, 268 BC, despite the siege of Athens.

KOINON ELECTIONS

https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2252/stateofthealliance268ab.jpg

Possible candidates for both cities:

https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8820/char1s.jpg
https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.png

https://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8300/char2d.jpg
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png

https://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2905/char3.jpg
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png

https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5761/char4f.jpg
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3720/spartasmall.png

I recommend waiting for the elections to be over before proposing any polis motions, as the situation is likely to change after the offices are decided.

Offices to be voted for:
-Strategos Autokrator
-Hegemon

https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6530/athenssmall.pngAthenian possible candidates:
-Chremonides Aithalidos Attikos
(Sadly there is only one candidate for Athens. He can only run for 1 of the 2 offices).

jirisys

02-03-2011, 01:45

Leumenes arrived to the assembly, but not before going to the wall and seeing the besieging army. With a smirk on his face, he saw the two skirmishers enter the city, he was confident, and glad to see his plan worked, the poor 18 skirmishers gained him enough time to levy a decent army to protect the city, he went down and apologized to the families and escorted the two men to their homes.

His face was sweaty, and all the assemblymen were sitting, he was the last one. He saw a few Korinthians having a nice chat with the Euobians, he would keep that on his mind and remember it when most needed. Yet he knew they only talked to the Euobians because of their neutrality. He knew they supported sparta like if they were spartans themselves. He knew there was only a man electable for a single office, yet they didn't have that many support.

He knew that the position of strategos was of high importance (and was very convinced that another spartan would be the end af the polis), that and since the Athenian council offices and parties were going to be elected soon, he went to his protectee.

He asked the orator, who had paused from delivering the economical report of the poleis and the Koinon. He took the stand.

"My fellow councilmen, spartan and korinthian invitees. Welcome all. These are dire times, especially for Athenai, our city, besieged in a few hours, and without supplies, Sparta (and the allied army) not able (and if able, not willing), we must stand and fight, in the walls and in the streets, let us ask of our fellow slaves and willing men to throw rocks and arrows and anything at the incoming attackers, they will find themselves outnumbered if they dare climb the walls or enter our city, fools will they be, and we will prove that we are brave men."

"Yet, our strategies have worked, sadly, eighteen men have died, and the survivors may not live through their wounds, but their great sacrifice has brought a lot of time to levy men for the defense of the city, I would like to thank them, personally. We must prepare for the supply shortage and the defense of our polis. But other matters at hand. If we would earn, supported by all our hellenic friends, from Rhodoi to the Pelopponesos, to support us, for my respectable councilman and my elder Polemarchos, Chremonides Aithalidos Attikos, to run for the Strategos Autokrator position. For if he wins, the spartans would have to give the men and we would start to defend our city and our borders, so the Makedonian force be depleted in-detail, but we must have an athenian, one who will know when and where to strike, and is not afraid to fight another day, one wise, and of course, Chremonides is the chosen for this, as he will bring great victories to the alliance. We ask your support, so that we may prosper even more."

It was one of the few speeches he said when he was not choleric. It seems to have gone well. He sat down on his usual seat, and waited for the assembly to finish the report, then to decide on his motions.

But not before the creation of his own party...

I PROPOSE Chremonides to run for Strategos Autokrator.

~Jirisys (You should adopt somebody)

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 02:03

Athenian Council - Offices and Parties

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7580/atheniancouncil1d.jpg

Prytaneis: These men are the best among the Athenians. Every Party Leader is a Prytanis.

Epistates: This is the most important position in the council. The Epistates is the supervisor of the council, being the most important of the Athenian councilors. This position will be voted for amongst all members of the Athenian Council, but only Party Leaders can be voted for this position.
Party Leaders: This is the leader of a given party in the poleis. Only these men can run for the position of Epistates. Only those who belong to the party may vote or be voted for this position.

The Moderate Party is the standard party. All those who don’t belong to other parties belong to it. Until new parties are created, everyone is a Moderate.

You can form a new party by posting in the thread!The party must have at least 2 members in order to be accepted, so at least 1 more member will have to join you.

Parties may be created now. The founder of the party will be its Party Leader for the first 4 years.

jirisys

02-03-2011, 02:09

I will found the Σμβαλλόμενο μέρος των σοφού και δίκαιου (Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just (PWJ))

To spread the word of great Aristoteles and Clistenes, Platon and Euclides, all the men that are Athenian or not, may them be wise and they shall receive their due right. We will fight ignorance, impulsivity and injustice, with wisdom, deliberation and fairness. We must join, join the men in Hellas to a greater life, as part of the powerful and free Demos, for them not to be called idiotes, that they vote, like free men. To join all of Hellas in intellectual panhellenism and to be proud and strong, like all Hellas should be. Yet, if they so wish, allow full autonomy, but to unite the people as one, as the people from Hellas.

What better symbol for our cause than that of the owl of Athena?

The owl to be black and the shield to be dark blue

http://www.jevaart.com/owl.jpg

(Maybe same as of the faction symbol but with a black owl)

~Jirisys (:crown:)

Populus Romanus

02-03-2011, 02:16

I want to start the Sparte Nationalist Party. I am sure Diomede, a fellow Spartan, will join.

jirisys

02-03-2011, 02:20

I want to start the Sparte Nationalist Party. I am sure Diomede, a fellow Spartan, will join.

ATHENIAN council parties lol

~Jirisys (Do it on twc :grin:)

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 02:29

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 02:35

Yes, a few things that would be nice to inform together with the name of the party:
-Ideals of the party (like Vaginacles said, what ideals the party will defend).
-Color(s).
-Symbol (supply an image or just describe it).

jirisys

02-03-2011, 02:37

I want to start an Arche Athene party, with the goal of Athens being the dominant power of the KH. This means doing everything in our power to further the power of Athens, rather than pursuing the idea of Pan-Hellenism that the KH represents.

I recommend the other party be one that supports the ideals of theKH and desires a unified greek nation, supporting Pan-hellenism.

That's pretty much what the Σμβαλλόμενο μέρος των σοφού και δίκαιου is about, besides, Arche means kingdom IIRC. Why don't you join us, to spread the word of great aristoteles and clistenes, platon and euclides, all the men that are Athenian or not, may them be wise and they shall receive their due right. We will fight ignorance, impulsivity and injustice, with wisdom, deliberation and justice. We must join, join the men in Hellas to a greater life, as part of the Demos.

~Jirisys ()

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 02:48

I don't like your name, it doesn't succinctly capture our ideals. Arche in greek means beginnings, base, or soverignty, domination, not necessarly kingdom. Considering that Basileus means king, i'd imagine the ancient greek word for kingdom would be basilon or something similar.

I support our party name to be the Arche Athena, because of the power of the word Arche. It suggests that all things greek, its culture, ideas, etc, derives from the base of Athens. We can bicker about the symbols later ;)

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 02:51

If there are 2 founders, like it seems will be the case for Jirisys and Vaginacles, the members of the party can vote for who will be the Party Leader, instead of it being the 1 founder (since there might be 2 founders in this situation).

jirisys

02-03-2011, 03:33

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 03:53

Populus Romanus

02-03-2011, 04:23

jirisys

02-03-2011, 04:41

So..... while the Makedonians are massed around our walls are we to bicker over whose glory is to be the greatest? What remnants of glory will be left to us or the Spartans if our will is subordinate to the whims of a Makedonian King? Shall we bicker over the crumbs that are scattered for us? Shall we learn nothing from our shared history? Perhaps, then, we should replace the owl as our symbol - a symbol of strength and of wisdom - with that of a pigeon; strutting, preening stupidity, living off the scraps from greater beasts' kills.

I propose a party of Koinon Hellenon, whose symbol, Pegasus, is known to us all. Greek unity is where Athens' real greatness lies.

What should we learn from the previous wars between our great cities? What greatness did that conflict bring to us Greeks? What it did was weaken us. What it did was strip us of our finest men. What it did was turn us into barbarian savages, unworthy of our consideration of ourselves as the flowering of civilisation in its grandest form. What it did was allowed those barbarians from the North to strip us of our independence, our freedom.

I am for Athens, but I am for the Greeks. We, good men of Greece, must put aside these petty rivalries and work together. Athens will stand for nought unless it stands within its own power, but that power must be as part of a greater confederacy - of free Greek states, of free Greek men. While we turn toward each other and jab sticks at each other, the Makedonians will stand at our flank and jab spears at us. Our glory will come from our deeds, from the future results of our actions now. History will judge those who sought the appearance of glory over those who sought real Greek unity and success. Let us not repeat the errors of our past. Let us not fall into the power of barbarians because we cannot see or share our oneness as Greeks.

Leumenes stood up when he finished, he felt every word in his heart, as he, a child from a spartan, who he, as an athenian, spent years in Lakedaimonia, was heartbroken, to see that spartans were now more bloodthirsty and impulsive, and athenians were too controlling and had a sense of egolatry themselves. He trusted the spartans, but what they did was a clear violation of what they agreed to with the athenians. Of course he supports Athenai, because it's his polis, and agrees with most of their policies, he is still torn that the spartans have become so reckless and uninterested. He still admired them and loved them like brothers, yet his anger was blinding him. Gaius, a man he only heard remotly and hardly ever saw in the assembly, but he was calming him down, with kind words, his friends' death was affecting him, even beyond his rationality. Maybe Gaius would become a good friend... Or a terrible enemy.

He stood up, with bloody eyes, yet retaining his composture, and uttered these words loudly and firmly: "Fellow councilmen; this man speaks words of truth. We cannot allow our own ego to stand in the way, we must repel these laws, that stop the spartans from showing support to us, I am sorry, but we must let them cross through Attike, even when the elections may not come into our favour. We must cooperate, I just hope that they do the same thing. Do not see us as athenians or book lovers, but see us as the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) sees you, like fellow Hellenos."

Handed a written note to the orator, which read:

I PROPOSE we allow the spartan army to traverse our lands. Yes, the SPARTAN army.
I PROPOSE we do not ask for spartan help until they become more kind to us.
I PROPOSE we give them and unit standing either in Rhodoi or Chalkis, to the ally army, to show our support and willingness to cooperate.
I PROPOSE we give a formal forgivness to Areus, yet still not allow him to run as a Strategos.
I PROPOSE we give a provisional seat to one of the spartan councilors and one of the korinthian councilors.
I PROPOSE we give a formal apology to Sparte for our usurpation and ask for theirs too.
I PROPOSE I go and apologize to the Spartan assembly about my very radical measures, even if it might cost me my life.

Leumenes sat down again, knowing that this meant much, but the spartans would like to profit from it, it was as easy to put them back on line.

~Jirisys ()

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 04:46

If I might assure our visitor from Sparta that the party named do not represent the Athenian position on our alliance. Given the somewhat...ermm..., erratic advice that has been offered by Leumenes in our Council I shudder to think what 'advice' he might have offered your own council. It surprises me not in the least that you were inclined to remove him. I might suggest that he add a little more water to his wine, lest he should poison himself as much as he poisons relations between our peoples.

We should not forget, fellow Athenians, that Athens is free because Areus took it upon himself to ignore the isolationist proposition that Spartans not enter Attike. Now we rely upon our allies to once again defend our freedom with their sons, while some of our number deride them and talk of our hegemony over them. I offer my apologies to our visitor from Sparta for the crassness and short-sightedness (and perhaps a hint of Makedonian drunkeness) of some of the Council members here. I believe in the ideals that Chremonides pursues and that our Koinon is based upon.

diomede

02-03-2011, 04:47

Athenians, I request a confirmation. Is it just Attica we are not permitted to traverse?
Also, are we allowed to save your ass (again)? :P

Populus Romanus

02-03-2011, 04:50

Leumenes stood up when he finished, he felt every word in his heart, as he, a child from a spartan, who he, as an athenian, spent years in Lakedaimonia, was heartbroken, to see that spartans were now more bloodthirsty and impulsive, and athenians were too controlling and had a sense of egolatry themselves. He trusted the spartans, but what they did was a clear violation of what they agreed to with the athenians. Of course he supports Athenai, because it's his polis, and agrees with most of their policies, he is still torn that the spartans have become so reckless and uninterested. He still admired them and loved them like brothers, yet his anger was blinding him. Gaius, a man he only heard remotly and hardly ever saw in the assembly, but he was calming him down, with kind words, his friends' death was affecting him, even beyond his rationality. Maybe Gaius would become a good friend.

He stood up, with bloody eyes, yet retaining his composture, and uttered these words loudly and firmly: "Fellow councilmen, this man speaks words of truth. We cannot allow our own ego to stand in the way, we must repell these laws, that stop the spartans from showing support to us, I am sorry, but we must let them cross through Attike, even when the elections may not come into our favour. We must cooperate, I just hope that they do the same thing."

Handed a written note to the orator, which read:

I PROPOSE we allow the spartan army to traverse our lands. Yes, the SPARTAN army.
I PROPOSE we do not ask for spartan help until they become more kind to us.
I PROPOSE we give them and unit standing either in Rhodoi or Chalkis, to the ally army, to show our support and willingness to cooperate.
I PROPOSE we give a formal forgivness to Areus, yet still not allow him to run as a Strategos.
I PROPOSE we give a provisional seat to one of the spartan councilors and one of the korinthian councilors.
I PROPOSE we give a formal apology to Sparte for our usurpation and ask for theirs too.

Leumenes sat down again, knowing that this meant much, but the spartans would like to profit from it, it was as easy to put them back on line.

~Jirisys ()
Hip-hip-hoorah! Jirisys and the Spartans are finally seeing things the same way! This, this is a huge step in the right direction for Athenai-Sparte relations. We members of the Sparte Nationalist Party promise to do our part.

P.S. Diomede join the SNP!

jirisys

02-03-2011, 04:52

Athenians, I request a confirmation. Is it just Attica we are not permitted to traverse?
Also, are we allowed to save your ass (again)? :P

Don't cuss.
The measure is still in place, I proposed for a removal.

~Jirisys ()

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 04:56

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 05:05

Thank you for your typical Laconic wit, diomede. A well known trait of the Spartans. Perhaps a little rash in context but then, as Areus demonstrated, this might be seen as another well known Spartan trait.

jirisys

02-03-2011, 05:09

With new information, Gaius arose. "I must offer my apologies to my comrade and colleague Leumenes. I have attributed his venom to an excess of drink. To my shame, it is rather an excess of grief, and none drink of that by choice, nor can it be watered down. But Spartans grieve too. We all have lost, but we will not aid our position by bickering among ourselves as to who is to blame; nor should future elections be decided upon such emotion. We Athenians pride ourselves upon our logic. Let us then be logical, and strong, and let us try to avoid such mistakes as have been already made from being repeated. Again, my apologies for my ignorant slur upon Leumenes."

Leumenes, very happy, yet confused (:inquisitive:) asking himself desperately how did he know he was grieving, there must be something, he was desperate, on conmotion, yet in the outside, he stood still, like a corpse, nobody noticed this, yet he was still asking himself how was that possible, who was he? How did he knew? He kept rambling on, yet, he had a moment of clarity. Stood up and told the assembly (in which spartans were considerably delighted):
"Fellow men, this, is how the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) stands up for their fellow citiziens and warriors, slaves and klerouchs, all of them, as fellow hellenos, for maybe Sparte and Athenai have a rivalry, but it can always be settled with drinks and music and fighting, like brothers, side by side, spartan, athenian, euboians, rhodoi, kretoi, korinthian, hellenos all. Let the Party of the wise and just prevail, FOR UNITY AND GLORY OF HELLAS IN ALL OF THE WORLD!"

He sat down, not thinking about the mind-boggling affair of which he was deluding himself over it, yet he knew what was missing...

Nobody knew his friend Arkotelos was his friend... However this may be interesting... :wink:

~Jirisys ()

diomede

02-03-2011, 05:29

Don't cuss.
The measure is still in place, I proposed for a removal.

~Jirisys ()
No literally, he needs help
http://www.onefunsite.com/images/donkey.jpg
(Sorry)

Thank you for your typical Laconic wit, diomede. A well known trait of the Spartans. Perhaps a little rash in context but then, as Areus demonstrated, this might be seen as another well known Spartan trait.
I appreciate this post, both for the rhetoric and the use of "laconic" so appropriately. Have a balloon. :balloon2:
(Are Spartans allowed to give balloons?)

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 05:30

KOINON ELECTION RESULTS - 268 BC

https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4757/koinonstate3offices3.jpg

Chremonides has, as expected, won the election for the position of Strategos. Normally he would march to the position of the Alliance Army, but since he is in Athens, under siege, the Alliance Army has to go to him. It is up to the Athenians to decide if the Alliance Army will come commanded by an athenian captain or by the Spartan generals (and the Spartan hoplites that accompany them!). The Spartans must abide to the decision of the Athenians, since there is a new Strategos. The tables have turned.

This council must now decide the actions for the following year. With the current set of offices, the Athenians have more control of the military while the Spartans control buildings and recruitment of units.

Walle

02-03-2011, 07:20

fireblade

02-03-2011, 07:47

1) I PROPOSE we allow the spartan army to traverse our lands. Yes, the SPARTAN army.
II) I PROPOSE we do not ask for spartan help until they become more kind to us.
III) I PROPOSE we give them and unit standing either in Rhodoi or Chalkis, to the ally army, to show our support and willingness to cooperate.
IV) I PROPOSE we give a formal forgivness to Areus, yet still not allow him to run as a Strategos.
V) I PROPOSE we give a provisional seat to one of the spartan councilors and one of the korinthian councilors.
VI) I PROPOSE we give a formal apology to Sparte for our usurpation and ask for theirs too.
VII)I PROPOSE I go and apologize to the Spartan assembly about my very radical measures, even if it might cost me my life.

I, DISAGREE with motion II, IV, V, VI. Areus needs to redeem himself on the battlefield before having a chance at being forgiven. Also, the Athenian Council does not apologise, you can go and apologise in your name, councillor Leumenes, but on behalf of the Athenian Council, you can not. Also, why should we allow a spartan and corinthian seat on our council. There ambassadors can speak freely, but surely, we won't give them the right to vote! This city has been managed by athenian citizens for centuries now, are we suddenly not up to the task anymore?

I SUPPORT Motion I, III and VII
I also SUPPORT Walle's proposal

I PROPOSE
I) Our fleet to move and blockade the port of Demetrias.
II) To gather more intelligence in the region of Pella (as in, send the spy to the north)
III) To move, once Athens is liberated, the alliance army to a position threatening Demetrias, yet refrain from attacking it for now.

I myself will remain among the moderates, as I see merit in both other parties, but refuse to commit myself for now.

Walle

02-03-2011, 08:08

I AGREE with everything Fireblade said.

Also, I PROPOSE that we merge the Athenian army with the Alliance army, once the siege at Athenai has been fought. Then move north towards Demetrias, while we keep recruiting more men at Athenai.

Drag0nUL

02-03-2011, 09:12

I AGREE with Walle's proposals (alliance army should come to our aid led by spartan general and then we should unite it with Athens army and march on Demetrias). Also I'd like to join Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's party.

Walle

02-03-2011, 10:34

Good Drag0nUL, it seems that we have a party then, already three members. Molinaargh, how often will the elections within the Athenian council be held? Is it also every four years?

G. Septimus

02-03-2011, 11:05

well well. This AAR is getting very busy.
Gaius Septimius Severus will be anticipating

Walle

02-03-2011, 11:13

Gaius, as leader of our party, could you post a more detailed post about the party, and perhaps add an image or something?

G. Septimus

02-03-2011, 11:21

Gaius, as leader of our party, could you post a more detailed post about the party, and perhaps add an image or something?
I am a mere Anticipator as you can see on my post above yours (Walle).
what kind of Athenian uses the name Gaius anyway?
and what do you mean, as a Party ( I know it's Political, but, I don't get it by the image stuff. Move on)
I will Join anyway

Walle

02-03-2011, 12:33

Sorry, I didn't mean you Gaius, I meant Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, who created the Koinon Hellenon political party.

Walle

02-03-2011, 12:34

I am a mere Anticipator as you can see on my post above yours (Walle).
what kind of Athenian uses the name Gaius anyway?
and what do you mean, as a Party ( I know it's Political, but, I don't get it by the image stuff. Move on)
I will Join anyway

Sorry, I didn't mean you Gaius, I meant Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, who created the Koinon Hellenon political party.

And sorry for double post :oops:

The_Blacksmith

02-03-2011, 13:00

I AGREE with Walle's motion

I PROPOSE that we should have a look at Athenai, Rhodes and Chaiks buildings, to judge what to improove

I PROPOSE that we should train Spies to see what the Epitotes are plotting

I PROPOSE to start train more Hoplitai and Akontistai and stop training Cavalry...

I recommend that in the furture, that we should be more forgiving on our allied's misfortunes...
further more, let us not forget the deeds done by the Pontic peoples!! :stare:

fireblade

02-03-2011, 14:23

Fellow members of the Boulè,

As pressing as the need to our allies in Asia Minor might be, or as tempting as a target like Kydonia might be, it is my opinion that the war against Makedon is our most pressing concern. With the army of the alliance at our disposal, we surely have the strength to continue this war, and continue it succesfully.
But, let us not forget what happened only a few years ago, when the spartan strategos attacked Demetrias to rash.
I would suggest for us to bide our time, build our strength and locate the makedon armies before we strike. Once Demetrias is taken, our beloved athens will be secure and we can turn our attention to the aegean, but no sooner.

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 14:32

We Spartans believe that the Arche Athenaia represents the greatest threat the Koinoin Hellenon has ever faced. If the Arche Athenaia wishes to enslave Sparte by dominating us, you can say goodbye to that. Neither Sparte nor Rhodos will ever accept this, and would rather secede (thus killing the AAR) than accept your evil ambitions. The Sparte Nationalist Party will never accept this, and will have all Arche Athenaia members caught showing their faces in the Sparte Council executed for treason and crimes against Koinoin Hellenon.

We Athenians do not seek to enslave Sparta, but you ought to recognize us as first amongst equals. The days of Spartan Hegemony is over, Hellas needs a progessive, innovative Hegemon, not a conservative one.

I AGREE with the proposal to merge the allied army with Athen's army, It should be lead by the Hegemon as Areus has no jurisdiction to command armies. The allied army should march to Athens and relieve our beseiged city.

I also PROPOSE that once Athens is relieved, the allied army march towards Demetrias and Besiege it. Let us fight in their territory where victory would yield benefit, rather than in Attica where victory yields respite.

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 14:45

I'm usually not interested in AAR's, but wow, this one's epic!

So..... while the Makedonians are massed around our walls are we to bicker over whose glory is to be the greatest? What remnants of glory will be left to us or the Spartans if our will is subordinate to the whims of a Makedonian King? Shall we bicker over the crumbs that are scattered for us? Shall we learn nothing from our shared history? Perhaps, then, we should replace the owl as our symbol - a symbol of strength and of wisdom - with that of a pigeon; strutting, preening stupidity, living off the scraps from greater beasts' kills.

I propose a party of Koinon Hellenon, whose symbol, Pegasus, is known to us all. Greek unity is where Athens' real greatness lies.

What should we learn from the previous wars between our great cities? What greatness did that conflict bring to us Greeks? What it did was weaken us. What it did was strip us of our finest men. What it did was turn us into barbarian savages, unworthy of our consideration of ourselves as the flowering of civilisation in its grandest form. What it did was allowed those barbarians from the North to strip us of our independence, our freedom.

I am for Athens, but I am for the Greeks. We, good men of Greece, must put aside these petty rivalries and work together. Athens will stand for nought unless it stands within its own power, but that power must be as part of a greater confederacy - of free Greek states, of free Greek men. While we turn toward each other and jab sticks at each other, the Makedonians will stand at our flank and jab spears at us. Our glory will come from our deeds, from the future results of our actions now. History will judge those who sought the appearance of glory over those who sought real Greek unity and success. Let us not repeat the errors of our past. Let us not fall into the power of barbarians because we cannot see or share our oneness as Greeks.

This does indeed all seem very honorable. However, on what basis can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect and modesty? While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war. When the Macedonian threat is gone, how do we know that Sparta will not turn against us? I'm not saying that we should be hostile towards Sparta. We need them and they need us. But we should put the power and interests of Athens first. Tell me, Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, when the war is over, how would this unified Greece of yours be ruled? True, both we and the Spartans are Hellenes, but our differences are too great. Unity would not work except for in times of war. Sparta will never share the interests of Athens, they will prioritze military might and nothing else.

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).

Anyway, I don't have time to participate that much in this AAR, but if someone feels like forming a party that is a bit less naive (:clown:) than that of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's, this is my suggestion.

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money from "their" cities and Athens from theirs?

fireblade

02-03-2011, 14:55

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).
.

It is my personal opinion that these positions are represented by the moderates, a pragmatic attitude if you will.

OOC: and yes, this aar truly is epic :)

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 15:02

It is my personal opinion that these positions are represented by the moderates, a pragmatic attitude if you will.

OOC: and yes, this aar truly is epic :)

Hmm, perhaps so. Oh well, consider my post as a protest regarding the ideas of this new party then. :)

Also, I haven't checked what's going on over at the TWC, but the Spartans have formed a party called the "Spartan Nationalist Party". Just a word of warning...

EDIT: Furthermore, I PROPOSE that we take either Mytilene or Krete ASAP, before the Spartans do. We might not have the resources now, but as soon as we do, we should try to expand overseas. We will make those cities flourish from trade and bring wealth to Athens, something that we cannot trust the Spartans to make them do. Freeing Mytilene from Macedon will also gain Athens a new ally, which will in turn increase our political influence in the Koinon Hellenon.

fireblade

02-03-2011, 15:11

Athens also has its share of the more independence minded members, the arche athenaia. It seems only natural for cities that have been each others enemies for more than a century (I mean, the spartans took money from the persians in order to maintain their dominance). Yet, for now it seems to be in the interest of both poleis to work together to a certain degree.

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 15:20

Are the Arche Athenaia a formal party? I didn't think anyone had joined it.

fireblade

02-03-2011, 15:31

I think Vaginacles and Jirsys are both members/founders of the Arche Athenaia, I could be wrong though.

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 15:38

Jirsys seems a bit self-contradictory as he in this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132898-Koinon-Hellenon-Athens-X-Sparta-(.org-X-TWCenter)-a-participative-AAR-Athenai&p=2053259943&viewfull=1#post2053259943) post completely changes his mind and suggests the forming of the "Party of the wise and just". :inquisitive:

I guess we'll have to wait for him to explain whether he is a member of the Arche Athenaia or not.

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 16:58

A small update to the parties and the orders so far:

https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6104/atheniancouncil2.jpg

I've changed the color of the Moderate party to better reflet their stance (neutral). The Koinon Hellenon Party in Athens was created, its members are the "Hellenes". Their leader is Gaius Sempronius Gracchus.

The Arche Athenaia as well as the Party of the Wise and Just only had 1 member each, so they were not formed. I suggest an agreement is made to merge the 2 parties.

Nobody has shown interest in being the leader of the Moderates yet, even though some formally states they are Moderates (everyone who is not in another party is a Moderate).

To answer someone's question (don't remember who), party elections will be held every 4 years as well, together with the Koinon Elections (for Strategos and Hegemon).

Athenian orders:

-Alliance Army comes led by Areus of Sparta (Chremonides will command it once Athenai is no longer under siege).
-The Spartan Army is allowed to move freely through Attike.
-Alliance Army to be reinforced.
-Fleet to blockade the port of Demetrias.
-Scout the north of, gaining information on the Macedoian forces in the region of Pella.
-Liberate Athens, then move the Alliance Army closer to Thessalia (Demetrias).

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money form "their" cities and Athens from theirs?
The income is shared between the Koinon, but the city who controls the office of Hegemon has priority in spending it. Sparta has been controlling the Hegemon for 4 years and will keep doing so for the next 4.

This polis session is still running.

Also, here are the party symbols in case anyone wants to use them in their posts or sigs.

https://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7486/moderates.png
Moderate Party

https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/840/hellenes.png
Koinon Hellenon Party

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 17:26

fireblade

02-03-2011, 17:26

Fellow members of the unbound to another party,(aka moderates)

I, Declare my candidacy for the leadership of the moderate party for the next four years. In this post, I will aspire to liberate both our people and our city from those northern barbaroi, and restore Greece to its former glory.

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-03-2011, 17:47

DEMOS, JOIN THE ARCHE ATHENE PARTY! We hold that Athen's interests are that of all Hellens, as what is Greek culture but that of
Athenian culture? Our philosophers, thinkers, great leaders, have all been educated and trained in Athens. Lets not forget that Alexandros was educated by Aristotle, nor forget that it is our city that is the forefront of arctitecture, sculptures, literature, and all things greek. JOIN US IN FURTHERING THE GLORY OF ATHENS! Our polis ought to be Hegemon, Sparta does not have the tactical or military manpower to defend Hellas from foreign aggression, while we are the economic, and naval, heartland of Hellas. What is war but money and ships?

ATHENE FOR THE ATHENIANS, HELLAS FOR THE HELLENS, ATHENE OVER ALL!

I join this Arche Athene party of yours. In order for us to be able to push our agendas of Athenian supremacy, I propose that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces.

Maybe we can decide on that first and what name the party should have later (if objections are made)?

Possibly a joint leadership of the party between Vaginacles and jirisys? To show our love for the honourable and glorious Athenian demokratia. And these are of course just suggestions from one who is not the wisest of our assembly :bow:

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 17:58

jirisys

02-03-2011, 18:23

I join this Arche Athene party of yours. In order for us to be able to push our agendas of Athenian supremacy, I propose that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces.

Maybe we can decide on that first and what name the party should have later (if objections are made)?

Possibly a joint leadership of the party between Vaginacles and jirisys? To show our love for the honourable and glorious Athenian demokratia. And these are of course just suggestions from one who is not the wisest of our assembly :bow:

Leumenes arrived at the assembly, to his dismay after completely failing a test at a new philosophy class for resources and production. Yet he was still uncaring, stating it was an useless subject. Dismayed again, to see that none of the parties he favored (Party of the wise and just and the Arche Athenaia) were falling behind, his party not properly accepted, and the Hellenos party in full strenght. But he entered, yet was intercepted by his friend Arthuoros, with whom he had a conversation about his ideals.
"Good morning my dear friend, it seems you have gone from an extremist Athenian supremacy supporter to an extremist free hellenos supporter. This is will not be taken so lightly, it worked for the Athenian supremacy proposals because there were times of anger and choleric wrath against the spartans, now, to change back so heavily from one side to the opposite, will not have much support. I beg you for the good fortune of Athenai and Hellas, to moderate your proposals, you are very young, these have been tough times in this assembly, but you must learn to calm yourself my friend. Now, let's go inside, shall we?"

Leumenes kept those words in his mind, yet he had too much to think about, his own lack of control could have split the assembly, even the alliance. His words and his delivery were powerful, but he had to learn to only speak powerfully wise proposals. His friend Gaios, brought confusion to his mind for the words he uttered last reunion. A woman of him claimed that his father would not accept her as here bride, so they couldn't see each other, the failed class, the division and failure of his party, and the fate of Athenai and the Koinon were rushing through his mind.

He entered the assembly, spotting his friend Gaios, he then stood up and had an announcement to make: "Dear assemblymen, brothers, from all hellas, Lakonike and Rhodoi, Euobia and Pelopponesos, friends of the Koinon all. I am glad to see that an Athenian has taken the position of Strategos Autokrator, and that the Hegemon will continue in spartan domain for another four years. Yet, Athenai is still under siege, and orders were sent for the Allied army, that they may come with the leadership of Areus, or any other spartan. It seems I have been threatened for death at the Spartan Assembly, so I would like to make an apology, to Areus, for treating him like scum, we have all lost something in this battle, yet it was not their fault, our rivalries prevented us from sending reinforcements, and to send word to the spartans to retreat so they may help them. We thank your sacrifice, for you have put a dent into the makedonian shield. Alas, they have split ours, and we are in time of great need, we must ask for kretan help, or remove makedonian influence in Lesbos. We must prepare military installations in Athenai, and maritime trade in Rhodoi. As times will be tough, we must ask our friends in Euobia and Rhodoi for help, because if Athenai falls, Hellas will eventually fall. We ask the cooperation of the free men of Hellas, Spartan, Korinthian, Euobian, Rhodian, and most importantly, Athenians, to come to our help, that is my first announcement."

I PROPOSE we ask for the Allied army, even if guided by Areus or containing spartan men.
I PROPOSE we go to Kretai to ask for help (and if not, liberate it); or Lesbos to remove the makedonian influence.
I PROPOSE we must build Military installations in Athenai and recruit professional soldiers.
I PROPOSE we must build up our trade and resources in Rhodoi.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Rhodoi and Euobia, and ask the Spartans and Korinthians for soldiers for the army.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the Allied army with our own men.

He waited until the assembly was calm, and went to talk to Vaginacles...

~Jirisys ()

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 19:00

jirisys

02-03-2011, 19:23

I agree with your proposal, i also believe that we should consult each other of our policies and ensure that we are of one mind.

Leumenes asked Vaginacles to accompany him outside. Vaginacles, a new member in the assembly, yet older than Leumenes, he looked at him (Vaginacles) with respect and joy, as this would mean that their ideals would join together...

Leumenes said: "Hello, you might know my name now, yet, it seems we have been beaten, our ideals, while similar, have been rejected and the Hellenos party is the strongest... I propose to you, we unite our parties and stay as co-founders, our desicions would be thought out and appointed with our both approvals, founding, even inside the party, as an important one, especially for an Athenian party".

He waited for his response, yet wandering his mind on so many things he needed to clear up.

~Jirisys (sfdagjksafjbjfa)

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-03-2011, 19:59

Arthouros fair and youthful still in his ways and being in his mid-30's was know for his calm temperament and wisdom first addressed his younger passionate friend Leumenes, and then moved on to addressing the assembly as a whole:

"Dear Philos I share your opinion that we Hêllenes should stand united, and while your hot-headedness have in some inconceivable way offended of the Spartatai I believe that your newfound hint of moderation will be welcomed by them. Of course the ways of the Athenai and Spartatai differ from time to time, as is to be expected in the free world we live in, something that may at times be loathsome and at other times something to give praise to.

Dear members of the assembly I AGREE with the motions carried forward by Leumenes.

Dear members of the assembly, Hêllenes and free men, let us work for the good of Hêllas, this is especially critical now. Even as we speak the forces of the Μακεδόνες τύραννος Αντίγονος stand at our gates, rampaigning Attike looting and burning.

I would propagate for motion that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces as our ideals seems to be alike.

Had it not been for the bravery of the 20 young men who held the Μακεδόνες at bay, then none of us would have been standing here as free men. Let us remember the sacrice they have made, and give monetary compensation to their respective families.
If I remember things correctly only two men of these 20 heroes have returned with alive, Idomeneus of Chalkis son of Aristarchos and Menelaus from our beloved Athenai, son of Phaethon. These men, dead and not dead should be given the according praise that befits their actions.

Lastly fellow Athenians, remember what Pericles once said: “Time is the wisest counsellor of all.”

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 20:42

I: I PROPOSE we ask for the Allied army, even if guided by Areus or containing spartan men.
II: I PROPOSE we go to Kretai to ask for help (and if not, liberate it); or Lesbos to remove the makedonian influence.
III: I PROPOSE we must build Military installations in Athenai and recruit professional soldiers.
IV: I PROPOSE we must build up our trade and resources in Rhodoi.
V: I PROPOSE we levy men from Rhodoi and Euobia, and ask the Spartans and Korinthians for soldiers for the army.
VI: I PROPOSE we reinforce the Allied army with our own men.

I AGREE with propsals I, IV, V and VI
For now I DISAGREE with proposal II. All our current manpower should be used to fight the Macedones in mainland Hellas. However, I PROPOSE that we save some of the new recruits for the purpose of taking either Lesbos or Krete as soon as possible.
I am neutral when it comes to proposal III. It is a good idea, but the trade improvements at Rhodos are more important.

fireblade

02-03-2011, 20:42

jirisys

02-03-2011, 20:48

I DISAGREE with Leumenes' motion to seize Kretai. Not unless the threat posed by Demetrias, that dagger, aimed at the heart of attika, is removed, can we consider any adventure overseas. What use is the army to the alliance, if the homeland is left unprotected. Let's not act rash, we have 4 years control over the army of the alliance. Let's not waste those years shipping our men back and forth from Kretai. No, Let's press on the makedons. If we beat the army sieging our beloved city, we can push onwards, and with all our forces concentrated in one place, drive home, maybe even to Pella. The war in the north, fellow citizens, is the reason of the alliance, not some harmless villages on an island that has done nothing wrong since the time of Theseus.

Leumenes, back in the assembly as Vaginacles was deliberating about the party unifications; overheard what pyrospathos had said, and clarified, with a mild chuckle:
"No, no, no... The allied army will defend the polis while garrisoned in the camp and launching attacks to mainland Makedonia, the Athenian army would go around asking for help to Krete or liberating Lesbos... Forgive my lack of clarity"

He sat down, with a smile on his face.

~Jirisys ()

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 20:57

Leumenes, back in the assembly as Vaginacles was deliberating about the party unifications; overheard what pyrospathos had said, and clarified, with a mild chuckle:
"No, no, no... The allied army will defend the polis while garrisoned in the camp and launching attacks to mainland Makedonia, the Athenian army would go around asking for help to Krete or liberating Lesbos... Forgive my lack of clarity"

He sat down, with a smile on his face.

~Jirisys ()

Support my proposal then! We can't send our soldiers to Krete and Lesbos while at the same time using them to reinforce the allied army.

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-03-2011, 20:57

Arthouros added: "But is not this war with the Μακεδόνες the sole reason for our alliance? When the Μακεδόνες lies defeated, what then? What shall we do if the Spartatai turn on us when we appear weak, having neglected to secure more Hêllenic allies to add to our influence and power?"

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 20:57

Gaius, as leader of our party, could you post a more detailed post about the party, and perhaps add an image or something?

Just to get into the swing of things I shall take the form of Demosthenes within the AAR (Gaius really doesn't cut the mustard as an Athenian name). I am grateful for the support shown for our party, and for the conciliatory effect my words seem to have engendered within the council. I will happily flesh out the position of the party, but you may have to give me a little time to do so. Perhaps the position will become clear as we progress. As a starting point I would suggest a reading of Chremonides decree. Not just a reading, but a taking to heart of the oaths, and their import, made within that decree, by all men of Athens - and by all men of Sparta.

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 21:01

Update to the parties of Athenai:

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1103/atheniancouncil3.jpg
Vaginacles was elected as the Epistates of the Council by the Boule (this election was randomized in a fair way, and all subsequent elections for Epistates will be randomized as well). He now has much influence in the Athenian assembly (if any you guys have suggestions for what privileges the office of Epistates can give, let me know).

The other Prytaneis are Fireblade, leader of the Moderates, Demosthenes (Gaius Sempronius Gracchus), leader of the Hellenes and Vaginacles and Leumenes (Jirisys), leaders of the Arche Athenaia (I went ahead and merged the parties and used the shorter and better name).

I'll change your name in the images soon, Gaius. It would be nice if Vaginacles and Gaius changed their avatars as well, for clarity in the image.

Symbols (if anyone wants to use in posts and sigs):

https://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6460/moderates2.png
Moderate Party of Athens

https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/840/hellenes.png
Koinon Hellenon Party

https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1813/archeathenaia.png
Arche Athenaia Party

jirisys

02-03-2011, 21:03

Arche Hellas would sound better :grin:

~Jirisys (However, Vaginacles should agree with it)

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-03-2011, 21:10

Regarding the role of the Epistates

from wikipedia (and yeah I know they are not always to be trusted):

"An epistates (Greek: ἐπιστάτης) in ancient Greece was any sort of superintendent or overseer. In Hellenistic kingdoms generally, an epistates is always connected with a subject district (a regional assembly), where the epistates, a resident representative, exercised control and collected taxes on behalf of the king."

So perhaps deciding taxation levels in Athenai (possibly other cities closely allied to us like Chalkis kai Rhodos?)?

fireblade

02-03-2011, 21:16

@ Molinaargh: You can maybe change my name to Glaucon, as fireblade doesn't sound so greek imho ;)

Maybe if there is a tie on a proposal, the vote of the epistates is decisive.

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 21:18

Leumenes asked Vaginacles to accompany him outside. Vaginacles, a new member in the assembly, yet older than Leumenes, he looked at him (Vaginacles) with respect and joy, as this would mean that their ideals would join together...

Leumenes said: "Hello, you might know my name now, yet, it seems we have been beaten, our ideals, while similar, have been rejected and the Hellenos party is the strongest... I propose to you, we unite our parties and stay as co-founders, our desicions would be thought out and appointed with our both approvals, founding, even inside the party, as an important one, especially for an Athenian party".

He waited for his response, yet wandering his mind on so many things he needed to clear up.

~Jirisys (sfdagjksafjbjfa)

I accept your proposal, it is clear that your position and mine are similar enough for co-operation. Forgive me but i must get back to my studies (calculus :embarassed: )

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 21:24

I'm usually not interested in AAR's, but wow, this one's epic!

This does indeed all seem very honorable. However, on what basis can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect and modesty? While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war. When the Macedonian threat is gone, how do we know that Sparta will not turn against us? I'm not saying that we should be hostile towards Sparta. We need them and they need us. But we should put the power and interests of Athens first. Tell me, Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, when the war is over, how would this unified Greece of yours be ruled? True, both we and the Spartans are Hellenes, but our differences are too great. Unity would not work except for in times of war. Sparta will never share the interests of Athens, they will prioritze military might and nothing else.

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).

Anyway, I don't have time to participate that much in this AAR, but if someone feels like forming a party that is a bit less naive (:clown:) than that of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's, this is my suggestion.

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money from "their" cities and Athens from theirs?

You ask some very pertinent questions, and so I shall address them. On what basis, yo ask, can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect? Well, as a party of the Koinon I think it would be productive to engage like-minded Spartan councillors to a Koinon party there. We may, thus, be capable of a pan-Hellenic dialogue which the other, isolationist, parties cannot aspire to. We may then bring a level of understanding between our two great - though different - poleis shorn of the inward looking stereotypes.

Stereotypes like "While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war." for example. I think we can be quite sure that a similarly, yet oppositely, slanted confirmation of stereotype exists within the minds of Spartan 'nationalists'. It will be our purpose to dispel these misunderstandings between our two states, so that we each - Sparta and Athens - come to appreciate what the other offers, that the one does better than the other.

You say that we should put the power and interests of Athens first, and then propose our party's position as naive? What power and interest is it that we can concentrate upon right now? Our power to withstand the onslaught of the Macedonians at our gates? Perhaps the interest in our great fleet? You know, the one we cannot afford? Perhaps it is our power to 'allow' the Spartan Areus to relieve our position? Or is it the interests of our allies under attack by Pontic armies; those same allies we have not the strength or wealth to go to the aid of.

How will a Greece without Macedonian threat be governed? As it is being governed under Macedonian threat. With compromise and co-operation. How else can we, the Greeks, move forward. Are we to dissolve into petty internal quarrels once more? Weaken each other so that the next behemoth can pick us off? Let us, our great nation of Greece, and all the history of our nations, be the behemoth. It would surely be such a one that nations would beg to join, rather than having to be forced into subjugation to.

Let us civilise the world, by civilising ourselves.

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 21:41

Let us ponder the question of Macedonian succession. I believe that Sparta and Athens will never allow the other to interfere in their affairs. Thus, it is impossible for the dream of a true Koinon Hellenon to be realize. The Greek world will always be divided under Spartan, or Athenian, Spheres of influence. It is essential then that we be strong enough to resist any attempts by the Spartans of reclaiming their lost prestige, and the best way of doing this is to keep Sparta fearful of our capabilities. Nevertheless, it is not in Athen's interest to wage war on the Spartans, We must not forget that the Epirote king as well as the Seleucids gaze on Hellas with hungry eyes. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is for us to rebuild our athenian empire, centered around the Ageaen, while Sparta looks westward towards the Dorian cities of Sicily and her colony of Taras. This i feel is the most prudent partition of power for the Koinon Hellon, as they play to the strength of each city, Spartan infantry can deal with the Romans and Epirotes, while our seapower and cavalry will handle the Eastern Hellenistic kingdoms.

As for our "power", we must invade Thessaly and deny the Macedonian king of the thessalian horses there, depriving them of their cavalry that they depend on so much. It is true that neither Sparta or Athens can stand against the Macedonian menace alone, but it is foolhardy to put all our faith on the allied army, as such an army could be lost or used against us indirectly. Suppose we place our best men in the allied army, while we are besieged, and the commander refused to march out and assist us, it would be in their benefit to be in control of such a vast number of well trained men while their greatest rival suffers a seige. The allied army is valuable, but could also be a liability.

Walle

02-03-2011, 21:45

Molinaargh, you can change my name to Kairos (I'm named obviously after the forever awesome Kurush of Parsa), since Walle clearly doesn't sound even remotely Greek :tongue2:

Paltmull

02-03-2011, 21:51

You ask some very pertinent questions, and so I shall address them. On what basis, yo ask, can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect? Well, as a party of the Koinon I think it would be productive to engage like-minded Spartan councillors to a Koinon party there. We may, thus, be capable of a pan-Hellenic dialogue which the other, isolationist, parties cannot aspire to. We may then bring a level of understanding between our two great - though different - poleis shorn of the inward looking stereotypes.

Stereotypes like "While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war." for example. I think we can be quite sure that a similarly, yet oppositely, slanted confirmation of stereotype exists within the minds of Spartan 'nationalists'. It will be our purpose to dispel these misunderstandings between our two states, so that we each - Sparta and Athens - come to appreciate what the other offers, that the one does better than the other.

You say that we should put the power and interests of Athens first, and then propose our party's position as naive? What power and interest is it that we can concentrate upon right now? Our power to withstand the onslaught of the Macedonians at our gates? Perhaps the interest in our great fleet? You know, the one we cannot afford? Perhaps it is our power to 'allow' the Spartan Areus to relieve our position? Or is it the interests of our allies under attack by Pontic armies; those same allies we have not the strength or wealth to go to the aid of.

How will a Greece without Macedonian threat be governed? As it is being governed under Macedonian threat. With compromise and co-operation. How else can we, the Greeks, move forward. Are we to dissolve into petty internal quarrels once more? Weaken each other so that the next behemoth can pick us off? Let us, our great nation of Greece, and all the history of our nations, be the behemoth. It would surely be such a one that nations would beg to join, rather than having to be forced into subjugation to.

Let us civilise the world, by civilising ourselves.

But we ARE civilized. The Spartans are not! Name one thing that future generations will remember Sparta for, other than for being warriors. While our monuments and philosophical and political ideas will remain for centuries (or perhaps even millenia) to come, Sparta will be remembered only for being militaristic savages.

As much as I like the thought of a unified Greece, if such an experiment involves Sparta it is doomed to fail. Let us instead take the opportunity to increase our influence within other city states. Making other states join forces against Macedon or liberating greek cities from Macedonian rule will increase our economical and military resources. This is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta, but to form a state with them? I don't think so.

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 21:54

Arche Hellas would sound better :grin:

~Jirisys (However, Vaginacles should agree with it)

DISAGREE. ATHENAIA OVER ALL :D

Molinaargh

02-03-2011, 22:12

This session is now over, there are more than enough orders compiled! :laugh4:

Vaginacles

02-03-2011, 22:14

This session is now over, there are more than enough orders compiled! :laugh4:

i've changed my Avatar for you molin :smitten::smitten:

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 22:18

But we ARE civilized. The Spartans are not! Name one thing that future generations will remember Sparta for, other than for being warriors. While our monuments and philosophical and political ideas will be remain for centuries (or perhaps even millenia) to come, Sparta will be remembered only for being militaristic savages.

As much as I like the thought of a unified Greece, if such an experiment involves Sparta it is doomed to fail. Let us instead take the opportunity to increase our influence within other city states. Making other states join forces against Macedon or liberating greek cities from Macedonian rule will increase our economical and military resources. This is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta, but to form a state with them? I don't think so.

If we think to have a unified Greece and we do not include Sparta then that, I fear, will doom it to failure. What shall we do if not co-operate? We shall shift wary glances at each other's dominions until we sink into another bloody war where the credulity of our claims to being civilised will be sorely tested. Meanwhile some other of the Makedonian successors may appear at our gates to pick us off once again. Or will it be the rabble of Keltoi pillaging our countries?

Will our monuments, our buildings and our writings stand for anything if we do not or cannot fight for them against such enemies? Do we, like the Spartans, not honour our own heroes, in death as well as in victory? Has it not been an honour sought among the elite families of Athens, and other free Greek states, to send the most promising of our youths to be trained in the Agoge. There is no 'merely' in being capable warriors.

And who has said anything about a combined state? I would not wish for such and I doubt any Spartan would wish for such. What we ought to have is a confederation of independent states with the greatest emphasis on mutual benefit and advancement. Athens is Athens, and Sparta is Sparta, and long may that continue. I am for Athens, make no mistake, but our future and that of Sparta - as our pasts have been - are tied together. Like two brothers who have different outlooks and strengths we are stronger when we stand united than if we try to undermine each other.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-03-2011, 22:35

No literally, he needs help
http://www.onefunsite.com/images/donkey.jpg
(Sorry)

I appreciate this post, both for the rhetoric and the use of "laconic" so appropriately. Have a balloon. :balloon2:
(Are Spartans allowed to give balloons?)

Thank you for the balloon (my first). Glad that the rhetoric was appreciated. And, apart from surrendering I believe a Spartan may do as he wishes... ;-) (Though, of course, surrendering to Athenians is the exception...)

Populus Romanus

02-04-2011, 01:08

Molinaargh

02-04-2011, 01:53

267 BC

Athenian orders:
-Alliance Army comes led by Areus of Sparta (Chremonides will command it once Athenai is no longer under siege). (YES)
-The Spartan Army is allowed to move freely through Attike. (YES)
-Alliance Army to be reinforced. (YES)
-Improve military installations in Athenai. (YES)
-Improve trade in Rhodos. (YES)
-Fleet to blockade the port of Demetrias. (YES)
-Scout Makedonia, gaining information on the Macedoian forces in the region of Pella. (YES)
-Liberate Athens, then move the Alliance Army closer to Thessalia (Demetrias). (YES)
-Besiege Demetrias if possible. (YES)

Spartan orders:
-Improve the economy rather than the military (public buildings). (YES)
-Dispute the Attike Act (Spartans may not enter Attike). (YES)
-Expand espionage actions in Macedonia. (YES)
-Seek trade agreements across the mediterranean. (Not yet)
-Garrison the frontier fort. (YES)
-Stop recruitment in Sparta until population is restored. (YES)
-Enslave Demetrias once conquered. (YES)
-Royal pardon for the Athenian councilor (Jirisys) in Sparta. (YES)

https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6711/001fh.jpg
Areus first ordered a small force of skirmishers to garrison the fort in Attike, which the Makedonians had left empty. This would make their retreat to Demetrias - or to the fort itself - harder. This ingenius action was a suggestion of the Spartan Council to their King.

https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9219/002bct.jpg
Areus then proceedd to engage the Macedoians, under Alkyoneus Argeades, who were besieging Athenai.

https://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8371/002br.jpg
The Macedonians retreated without fighting to where they could...

https://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8666/003bpk.jpg
...to the north-east of the Attike Fort.

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/281/003bgi.jpg
With Athenai no longer under siege, Areus stepped down from the command of the Alliance Army, and the new Strategos, Chremonides, took charge. Areus went back to Korinthos, where he was welcomed. His son had gone back to Sparte, where he intended to stay for his next 4 years in the position of Hegemon.

https://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7449/004gvm.jpg
Chremonides persued the Macedonian army to the point it couldn't retreat anymore. His first battle as Strategos was about to start.

https://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9114/005wad.jpg
The Koinon Hellenon forces easily outnumbered the Macedonians, but Alkyoneus Argeades was a great general that could still cause trouble.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1069/006qom.jpg

https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8486/007yi.jpg

https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8084/008ado.jpg
Alkyoneus Argeades died in the battle, and his army fell quickly without him.

https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/650/009blq.jpg
Chremonides ordered the killing of all Macedonians who participated in the battle as a punishment for the siege of Athens.

https://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9724/010uzs.jpg
Few Makedons survived that day.

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6805/011ity.jpg
Chremonides saw the complete obliteration of the Macedonian army as an opportunity to conquer Demetrias. He was confident in the current strength of the Alliance Army.

https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9062/012dsj.jpg

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9162/013svo.jpg
To the north, the Makedonian King gathered more forces in his capital.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6896/014lb.jpg
He managed to do so, and sent them to break the siege of Demetrias. The Alliance Army outnumbered the Macedonians, but these had heavy cavalry, phalanxes and quality hoplites in their forces. They also had Kalos Argeades, a strong commander. Still, their forces were divided (the reinforcements and the garrison of Demetrias) and the Alliance Army was united.

https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3673/015iw.jpg

https://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2675/016ai.jpg
Chremonides's plan was to attack the reinforcements quickly and rout them before the garrison of Demetrias arrived, fighting the 2 Macedonian armies one at a time.

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5464/017nq.jpg
The plan did not work. The Macedonian captain in charge of the reinforcements was strongly defended by heavy cavalry, and managed to keep his forces fighting as he waited for Kalos and the garrison of Demetrias.

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9655/018ur.jpg
The Koinon Hellenon Army was spread thin and started losing the battle in both flanks. The right flank eventually broke.

https://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2504/019ch.jpg
But in the center the Athenians and Spartans managed to get Kalos to "withdraw" (cowardly run away) from the battle, giving Chremonides the advantage.

https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7852/020hwn.jpg
The battle was bloody. By the end of it, all military tactics were abandoned and the exhausted men just tried to stab whoever wasn't wearing their colors.

https://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1821/021nz.jpg
Victory came to the League of Hellenes, and again the Macedonians were chased and killed.

https://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8220/022kci.jpg

https://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2149/023kph.jpg
Most of the garrison of Demetrias was killed in the battle, so Chremonides ordered the assault on the walls.

https://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8594/024ii.jpg

https://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7223/025srn.jpg

https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8048/026cs.jpg

https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1895/027qf.jpg
Demetrias was conquered.

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6518/028dk.jpg
Eudamidas, the second Spartan King (and current Polemarchos of the Koinon), advised Chremonides to enslave the population of the city, as was requested by the Spartan Council. Due to the valuable help the spartans had provided in the previous battles, and since the Athenian Council had given no order on this matter, he agreed with the suggestion.

https://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3867/029am.jpg
After conquering Demetrias, Chremonides retreated to the Attike Fort with all the Alliance Army but a force of skirmishers, which was left in Demetrias to maintain order. He believed the Macedonians would siege Demetrias and the Alliance Army had been weakened and required reinforcements, which would be hard to recieve if they were stuck under siege in Demetrias.

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6016/030kc.jpg
The Macedonians did indeed siege the city soon after with a force that outnumbered the current Alliance Army.

https://img268.imageshack.us/img268/264/031sh.jpg
And they had even more men in the north. For now, Chremonides was staying in the Attike Fort, waiting for reinforcements and orders from the Athenian Council.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6343/032dn.jpg
Back at southern Hellas, public buildings and recruitments were made through this entire time. In Sparte the new military facilities were completed.

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/52/033ekr.jpg
And work began on public health.

https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/9084/034mb.jpg

https://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8816/035vx.jpg
In Rhodos, the economy started being improved through the building of a mercantile port.

https://img62.imageshack.us/img62/338/036gr.jpg
In Athenai, reinforcements were recruited for Chremonides.

https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1796/037db.jpg
And his son grew older, ready to enter public life.

https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/930/037bb.jpg
Although the idea of him joining the Spartan Agoge seemed absurd to many, he didn't find the notion so absurd.

https://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3240/038hn.jpg
Doros was a hellene more than an Athenian, and had liked the other cities, including Sparta.

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9823/039oh.jpg
In Athenai, the building of new military facilities started as well.

https://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1152/040rsm.jpg
Over at Asia, Sinope was conquered by Pontos. This city had once requested the help of the Koinon.

https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1450/041zi.jpg
Once the public health constructions were finished in Sparte, economic improvements started being made to the city.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2389/042cq.jpg
And in the north, Pella was the last stand of the Macedonian King, as his forces had failed to conquer Serdike. Unless, of course, he managed to conquer Demetrias back from the Koinon.

This report was a bit different in that I reported all the military events first, then the rest. I thought it would be more interesting to follow Chremonides's campaign without interruption. Let me know if next time you want me to keep doing this or mix up the military events with the other ones. This was also the biggest report yet.

jirisys

02-04-2011, 02:10

The Spartan ambassador to Athenai rose from his seat in the Council, a look of unhidden disappointment on his face.
"Athenai, I have seen that you have, in a measure of incredible arrogance, decided to go through with this "Arche Athenai" idea of yours. I, quite frankly, am shocked and disappointed. I would have thought that you were more intelligent than this. Can't you see that your vision of an Athenai led Koinoin Hellenon will never materialize? To you, maybe, this may be a dream, but know that to all other Hellenes, including Sparte, that this would be a nightmare. You realize that this would never be allowed to happen? You realize that Sparte would rather fight you than accept this monstrosity? Do you want a civil war? Sparte does not, believe me. You know, I thought that Leumenes had taken a step in the right direction with his offers of mutual respect and fairness. I believed that we would reach a golden age in Athenai-Sparte diplomatic relations. But then Leumenes goes and does this. To be honest, I am hardly amused, and neither will the Sparte Council (where my master is Ephoroi-hooray!) when word reaches them. I sincerely hope that this party tones down its superioristic views, for the good of us all."
With that, the representative of the Ephoroi Populus and ambassador of Sparte strode from the floor and took back his seat.

Leumenes, shocked, by both what he had accepted and to what the fellow spartan said, proceeded to adress it, before marching to meet the Makedonian army and rejoin Chremonides' Somatophylakai.
"I am shocked, to hear what ideals I have pursued, yet to find myself in such an awful position, the orator adressed us as united, without even consulting our ideals for the merging, I would like to keep the Party of the Wise and Just as proposed without the merger, my dear Vaginacles, I am sorry, but your position is too sectorian, I cannot compell myself to fall on that vice again. I will still be partyless, until one man joins, for my Ideals are different from the Hellenos, and more unifying than the Arche Athenaia.

I will found the Σμβαλλόμενο μέρος των σοφού και δίκαιου (Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just (PWJ))

To spread the word of great Aristoteles and Clistenes, Platon and Euclides, all the men that are Athenian or not, may them be wise and they shall receive their due right. We will fight ignorance, impulsivity and injustice, with wisdom, deliberation and fairness. We must join, join the men in Hellas to a greater life, as part of the powerful and free Demos, for them not to be called idiotes, that they vote, like free men. To join all of Hellas in intellectual panhellenism and to be proud and strong, like all Hellas should be. Yet, if they so wish, allow full autonomy, but to unite the people as one, as the people from Hellas.

What better symbol for our cause than that of the owl of Athena?

The owl to be black and the shield to be dark blue

http://www.jevaart.com/owl.jpg

(Maybe same as of the faction symbol but with a black owl)

~Jirisys (:crown:)

"However those ideals have changed, to be less Athenian and more panhellenic, to join ourselves as Hellenos, however free, yet we must install both wisdom and strenght, from Athenai and Sparte, but not forgetting the valors of the other Hellenos like rhodoi and kretoi, like eubioi and thessalioi, all proud to be Hellenos!"

To add, furthermore, the symbol would be an Aspis and Doru, in black, with blue background.

Leumenes' last words, before he went campaigning.

~Jirisys ()

jirisys

02-04-2011, 02:28

Leumenes, in the forth, rushed on horse, as a standing councilmen in the assembly was not going to be in peril by a campaign...
He sat down, tired and sweaty, his beard was growing prouder, yet he was just 23 years old. Now more mature, more wise too.

"Athenians, euobians, spartans and korinthians alike, I'm saddened to hear our Rhodian friends have not been able to come at this meeting, yet times are descisive. We ask for the support of the Polemarchos, for if he, would be able to capture the Delphoi city, we might have a fighting chance to sorround and destroy our biggest foe once and for all. Yet, it is not the time, for our men, while acheiving great and bloody victories, have succumbed to the Hades. We must certainly make good use of our navy, by sailing, if we have enough time to attack the beseiging army by sea, to free Demetrias from the makedonian army, but we must act fast, for if Demetrias falls, more men would die, we must rush to destroy the army, yet we must bring the plight of urgent help to the Lakedaimonians, Euobians and the Pelopponesos, so that we do not sacrifice more lives than needed. Please, all those lives now resting in the Elysean fields would see the horror of them having died for nothing. We must ask the euobians to levy as many men as they can, if they cannot, to build a military building for the next time needed. We ask as hellenoi, not Athenoi or Rhodoi, but as a common plight for all greek men."

He asked a pupil of him, to write his speech so that he may say it once more, when he would respond the spartan invitation to the assembly, to which he had not visited in two years.

I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give theslaves captured in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve.

He finished by saying (shouting): "FOR HELLAS IS POWERFUL AND THEIR MEN'S BRAVERY AND VALOR ARE EVEN MORE!"

He sat down, remembering his spartan friend who fell, honoring his duty, protecting his Strategos, now talking with Herakles or Priamos, waiting for Leumenes to die a spartan death too, yet not soon, for he had a great future...

~Jirisys ()

Molinaargh

02-04-2011, 02:40

Small update to the council (names, portraits and Jirisys leaving the Arche)

https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1238/atheniancouncil4.jpg

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenai session is open to decide what actions must be taken in 266 BC.

jirisys

02-04-2011, 02:58

Leumenes, in the forth, rushed on horse, as a standing councilmen in the assembly was not going to be in peril by a campaign...
He sat down, tired and sweaty, his beard was growing prouder, yet he was just 23 years old. Now more mature, more wise too.

"Athenians, euobians, spartans and korinthians alike, I'm saddened to hear our Rhodian friends have not been able to come at this meeting, yet times are descisive. We ask for the support of the Polemarchos, for if he, would be able to capture the Delphoi city, we might have a fighting chance to sorround and destroy our biggest foe once and for all. Yet, it is not the time, for our men, while acheiving great and bloody victories, have succumbed to the Hades. We must certainly make good use of our navy, by sailing, if we have enough time to attack the beseiging army by sea, to free Demetrias from the makedonian army, but we must act fast, for if Demetrias falls, more men would die, we must rush to destroy the army, yet we must bring the plight of urgent help to the Lakedaimonians, Euobians and the Pelopponesos, so that we do not sacrifice more lives than needed. Please, all those lives now resting in the Elysean fields would see the horror of them having died for nothing. We must ask the euobians to levy as many men as they can, if they cannot, to build a military building for the next time needed. We ask as hellenoi, not Athenoi or Rhodoi, but as a common plight for all greek men."

He asked a pupil of him, to write his speech so that he may say it once more, when he would respond the spartan invitation to the assembly, to which he had not visited in two years.

I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give the slaves capture in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve.

He finished by saying (shouting): "FOR HELLAS IS POWERFUL AND THEIR MEN'S BRAVERY AND VALOR ARE EVEN MORE!"

He sat down, remembering his spartan friend who fell, honoring his duty, protecting his Strategos, now talking with Herakles or Priamos, waiting for Leumenes to die a spartan death too, yet not soon, for he had a great future...

~Jirisys ()

~Jirisys (Quoting myself)

pockettank

02-04-2011, 03:02

jirisys

02-04-2011, 04:30

The young Galen stood up amongst his peers, it was his first day as a councilmen after the death of the late Alister, Galen was young and inexperienced but had heard of Leumenes and was inspired by the strength and determination of the young man.

"Councilmen, brothers of Athenai.. and Sparte, though you have little say here, i would like to begin by giving my praise to Chremonides for succeeding where the Spartans were unsuccessful. however as we all know it was with great losses, and perhaps a report on the exact state of the army should be given so we know what best to recruit to bolster the alliance."

"Once this report has been recieved from Chremonides, that is if it is at all, we should put all efforts to bolster the army, for im sure once the macedonian army reclaims Demetrias it will then march to Athenai and attempt to retake it."

"Also on the state of our new Athenian royalty, Doros, i propose we should allow him to join the Spartan Agoge, it would bolster our relationship with the Spartans."

"Therefore i agree with Luemenes' I, II, IV, V, VI, and VIII proposals, however i do not agree with his other propositions, as we do not have the man power at the moment to push into Macedonia, perhaps we should reserve our men in northern Attike until next year when we have a larger army to take pellas itself."

With that Galen took his seat, feeling accomplished for it being his first day and already stepping into the foray of politics.

Leumenes, glad to see another young man, like when he started the periodic visits and cousels to the polis, joyfully proclaimed:
"Great men of Hellas, let us have a warm welcome to our new friend, pockettank, for making such a good and unifying proposal, for which I AGREE with. And I would like to adress that several proposals stated that may not possibly be made by the end of the year, however we must remain strong and cooperative."

Now asking for the orator stand, he stepped down, he took it, and with loud and deep voice spoke:
"Fellow men, as you may know, the Σμβαλλόμενο μέρος των σοφού και δίκαιου (Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just (PWJ)) has failed, yet, I have seen we need to renew it. I first, would like to remove it, as it must now be built from the ground. I would like to create a party, which name will be: Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα (Simballomeno meros ton eleutheroi kai enomenoi anthropoi tin Ellada) Party of the free and united men of Hellas. It's ideals will be of unity, unity of all Hellas, of greeks and those that wish to become it and join us as mighty Hellenos. To unite Hellas, wether spartan or athenians, to fight, like brothers, of a single polis, side by side, to defend it from barbarians and treacherous greeks, to seek unity with our fellow men. Those are the ideals of all greeks, wether foreigners coming to seek the proud way of ours, or nationals, born in a polis as free men.

It's symbol, to be Green, a dark tone, and inside it, An Aspis semi sideways with the Doru crossing it with it's tip on the top, with a Machaira holding both in place, with the hilt up, Below this, a small wall, representation of a polis, showing the equality among greeks, yet show their marvelous ideals as a base, the base of all, the Polis. all of these be white or yellow.

I would like to ask of pockettank, his support, to join this party, and the spartan senator if so wish, to support me so we all greeks benefit from this party, and it's ideals of equality and unity."

Leumenes sat down, renouncing the orator stand, awaiting calmly the response of the youngest assemblyman, before going to Lakedaimonia.

~Jirisys ()

pockettank

02-04-2011, 05:37

Galen arose from his seat.

"Senator Leumenes, you do me great honor by personally requesting my aid in forming your party, i gladly accept and will do all in my power to strengthen the party."

Galen retook his seat in awe that he was asked to from a new party on his first day of service.

fireblade

02-04-2011, 05:51

Glaucos then spoke,

Clearly this is a grave situation. Let's not abandon Demetrias, and waste all the lives of the men that fought there.
I PROPOSE for the Alliance army to march there as soon as possible, hiring any mercenaries it finds along the way. As we'll need funds for this action, no new construction projects should be initiated for now.= WITDRAWN
I PROPOSE for our fleet to sail north and blockade the port of Pella, in order to disrupt all Makedon trade that remains.

I AGREE with Pockettank's proposal.

@ Molinaargh: Is it possible to see the troops left in the Alliance army?

jirisys

02-04-2011, 05:54

"What is your stance on my proposals" Leumenes stood up quickly and said those words to the assembly, he wassomewhat confused Glaucos did not adress his proposals.

Edit: The symbol kinda like this (only betterm It's 12 AM here, so my 2D artist is long asleep :laugh:):
https://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9370/pfumh.png

~Jirisys ()

pockettank

02-04-2011, 06:25

Galen arose, feeling the power of being a senator course through him, he had no fear, he could argue with the best so long as his points were valid and he had a powerful friend like Leumenes.

"Glaucos, the battle at Demetrias was not necessarily to capture it, we enslaved its populace, made it close to useless for the Macedonians, we destroyed a large portion of their army, killed one of their best generals. Do you not see, the battle crippled them, the last of their army stands at Demetrias, if we wait one more year to gather troops, build infrastructure, and devise tactical plans, we can destroy the Macedonians in one fell swoop and integrate them into our society." The young senator stopped to catch his breath, the speech being more then even he expected.

"While i could understand your desire to protect Demetrias, would you want to risk a weakened tired army supported by mercenaries who fight for money and cant be trusted to win a war against the last of Macedonia, where a defeat means the loss of Demetrias, the Allied army and maybe even Athenia?" Galen was surprised by his speech, seeing shock on many senators faces that such a young man would risk his career making a potential enemy in Glaucos, but it was necessary thought Galen, he needed to voice his, and probably many other senators views.

"I wont stand by while we gamble on this war, we dont need another incident like Areus's especially so soon, we lost our army and almost Athenia from the Spartans rash thinking, we need not make the same mistake, were Athenians, thinkers and progressives, we need to come out at the forefront of tactics and brains."
With that Galen took his seat exhausted and terrified, what would the great Glaucos retort back at him?

fireblade

02-04-2011, 06:28

fireblade

02-04-2011, 06:38

Councillor Galen speaks rash, yet, there lies wisdom in his words.

But one year, you say. What can Makedon do in one year. Imagine their army, positioning themselves at the gates of our city. Last time, we had to ask the Spartans for help. While we all agree that was necessary, we must also think of our people. How do we look, as leaders of this city, when we can't even protect the farms lying a mile away from the agora.

But now, the defeat has hurt the Makedons, their armies are stretched thin. If we smash their army here, Demetrias is secure, and we can replenish the Alliance army.

Yet, I see the merit in your proposal, and Areus' fate surely left a dent.

Only a fool does not recognise his own mistakes. Therefore, I Withdraw my mercenary act, and SUPPORT a retraining program. May the gods have mercy on the soldiers guarding Demetrias.

jirisys

02-04-2011, 07:05

Councillor Leumenes,

Forgive me the delay, for I wanted to study your proposals more thorough. As you are well aware, the future of our city is at stake.

I AGREE with provision 1-7 of your proposal.

I DISAGREEwith your final proposal. I refuse to yield my slaves to the spartans, for if you recall correctly, our cities provide the bulk of the finances of the koinon. If aside from money, we also take the responsibility for manpower, Sparta might feel less obliged to honour the agreements of the Koinon. We supply the money, they the men. Now is not the time for population transfers.

Leumenes stood up and asked for his mistake to be corrected: "I apologize my fellow councilors, I meant, the slaves we have captured from the conquest of Demetrias, not our own... If not, who would bring me my spear and shield before a battle, should I ask the Strategos to do so?" The room filled with chuckles...

Councillor Galen speaks rash, yet, there lies wisdom in his words.

But one year, you say. What can Makedon do in one year. Imagine their army, positioning themselves at the gates of our city. Last time, we had to ask the Spartans for help. While we all agree that was necessary, we must also think of our people. How do we look, as leaders of this city, when we can't even protect the farms lying a mile away from the agora.

But now, the defeat has hurt the Makedons, their armies are stretched thin. If we smash their army here, Demetrias is secure, and we can replenish the Alliance army.

Yet, I see the merit in your proposal, and Areus' fate surely left a dent.

Only a fool does not recognise his own mistakes. Therefore, I Withdraw my mercenary act, and SUPPORT a retraining program. May the gods have mercy on the soldiers guarding Demetrias.

"Yes, one must not make the same mistake Pyrrhos did with his mercenaries. Yet, while we are weak, we can still rally enough men from all of the cities, especially ours, since we do not need to defend it, as long as the fort is in place, we can leave it ungarrisoned, yet that would be a bold move, I am just making a point, not proposing any rash measures. We must ask for support from Lakedaimonia, sending the slaves from Demetrias to them would be of great joy to them, and will likely cooperate more. I ask you to change your stance on that proposal. Now, Galen, that was a very harsh reprimmand for a fellow councilman, we all want this alliance to work, yes, you might have been right, and I thank you for pointing this out, but you must respect your fellow men, you are young, as I once was, you will leard moderation through age, I am glad however, that you join us."

Leumenes sat down, smiling at Galen, then he stood again serious, with a hand rubbing his chin, and his leg crossed, to hear what replies Glaucos was going to make.

~Jirisys (This is an unpleasant new page)

Walle

02-04-2011, 07:06

I would like to create a party, which name will be: Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα (Simballomeno meros ton eleutheroi kai enomenoi anthropoi tin Ellada) Party of the free and united men of Hellas. It's ideals will be of unity, unity of all Hellas, of greeks and those that wish to become it and join us as mighty Hellenos. To unite Hellas, wether spartan or athenians, to fight, like brothers, of a single polis, side by side, to defend it from barbarians and treacherous greeks, to seek unity with our fellow men. Those are the ideals of all greeks, wether foreigners coming to seek the proud way of ours, or nationals, born in a polis as free men.

~Jirisys ()

That sounds exactly like the Koinon Hellenon party. We stand for the unification of all Hellas, as well as the equity of every Greek, whence the name "Koinon Hellenon". Why don't you just join us?

Of course "equity" is very relative (slaves and such) but you know what I mean :tongue:

jirisys

02-04-2011, 07:20

Walle

02-04-2011, 07:35

That seems a little like nit-picking. "Support the Athenian method"? Well, of course a little bit, this is, after all, the Athenian council and we all are Athenians, by blood and by culture. However, that doesn't mean that we will be so biased that we will force our lifestyle upon other Greeks.

In conclusion, and I think our party leader will agree, we stand for the unification and equity of all Greeks, and support every city's own culture and lifestyle. We do not force our Athenian ways upon others in any practical or significant way. The name "Athenian" is merely a label, it doesn't necessarily mean much.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 10:47

"Not exactly, you propose reunification of Hellas while still supporting the athenian method. We, however, share the common name of Hellenoi, wether you be a foreigner or a citizien of a polis, yet they admire our proud ways, to say not that we are athenian or spartans, that we are all greek, yet we have different culture, we must not impose our way of thought to those freed or conquered, but they should make it, from greek basic principles to the ones they have, that's the whole essence of the polis, we must teach them of course, about the polis, and the Tyrannos, and the Hegemon, but to be remembered, as the greeks, not some dualities. We must do what is best for all of us, without also, hurting ourselves or other in the process, regardless of what we think we know, even if Demetrias wants a kingdom, yet, instructs their citiziens of philosophy, we must join each other, yet with enough separation so our polis would be unique, and be not the pillar of our hellenism, but instead, a symbol, of the ways that the Hellenos live their lives.

Yet, of course slaves need to be present. Who would run commerce in sparta, or work for us in our homes, to light our fires and cook our food, yes, they are citiziens of the polis, yet they are not free, however, they, as the most powerful Tyrannos or Basileus, is like all, greek, in some way or another."

Leumenes, very happy with that speech went back to his seat, noticing some spartans were quite happy, but others, not so much.

~Jirisys ()

Leumenes, my friend and colleague Kairos speaks truth. What you propose is exactly what we at the Koinon Hellenon propose. We do not intend to impose our ways upon Sparta, we propose that to utilise each of our great strengths, while learning from each other, is the foundation of the greatness of Hellas. I think you mistake our position with that of the Arche Athenai; it is their position that the Athenian way is the only way, that the Spartans are uncivilsed war-mongers and that we must look to Athenian leadership... As an aside, which of our two councils has made any effort to improve the infrastructure of our towns? Which of our two councils incessantly offers proposals which are inherently and conspicuously insulting and derisory to their allies? I am not an overly aggressive man, but if someone keep slapping my face I will turn on them, and I would do so rightly. I propose that we desist from anti-Spartan sentiment in our edicts from now on. Those who cannot see the sense in this should, perhaps, take heed of the oaths of our alliance. Should we bring the wrath of the Gods upon our heads by breaking oaths we swore to them? Freely, of our own volition?

Join us Leumenes, and be a friend to Sparta and Athens. Our fates are tied, and I see that you know this, that you feel this as deeply as any here. We are not interested in imposing our ways upon Sparta, we wish to strengthen ourselves by alliance with free Sparta, and in return strengthen Sparta by their alliance with us. Our aims are the same Leumenes, my friend. I sense something of the Spartan in you. For some in the Arche Athenai that would be seen as an insult, for me it is is meant as a complement, a sign of strength - of exactly the kind of bond we desire for the Koinon.

Walle

02-04-2011, 11:11

Words to live by, Demosthenes. That's exactly what the Alliance as a whole should stand for.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 12:20

Fellow Athenians, and our esteemed guests from Sparta and the other free states of the Koinon, it is time that we begin to use our heads. There are those who wish to congratulate Chremonides at the expense of Areus. Yes, we won a battle against the Macedons, but the taking of Demetrias was at the expense of some seven hundred of our best young men. In some cases whole families have been destituted. Is their loss to be for a temporary weakening of Macedonia only?

There are valuable lessons to be learned here. Both Chremonides and Areus acted as we have commanded them. The losses, the risks that some may blame them for, those errors are, in fact, our fault. I PROPOSE that we engage an intelligence network, with at least three mobile reconnaissance units; two to operate in greater Hellas, and one to inform us of events in Asia minor. I AGREE with the first proposition that Leumenes made; that we must hold Demetrias. We owe it to those families whose youthful bloom has been plucked. I AGREE that if necessary we must employ mercenaries in order to achieve this aim. We have lost to much in the gaining of the town to think of the gamble now. We made the gamble inevitable by our edicts. By the language brought to bear upon the discourse of our alliance by some the stakes have been upped. Athenian and Spartan commanders have sought glory for their individual states, and that has cost us dear. We must stop this rot, and we must do that by looking forward to the glory of all Hellas, of all of our cities.

If we hold Demtrias we are better positioned to defend our dominions. We should hold it and leave a healthy garrison, the alliance army to reposition in a fort much further North in Attike. From there we may strengthen the army of the Alliance, so that we may relieve Demetrias from future attacks. This will weaken Macedonia. What we learn from our intelligence network can then educate our future strategy. I believe that, to the West, the Aetolians are no threat. They offer a free defence against Epirote aggression. Once the Epirotes begin to attack, and weaken the Aetolians then we might think to relieve them - and thus gain an alliance there. That may be some time in coming. If the Macedonians are still under threat from Epiros then our pressing them back to their holdings in Pella will greatly reduce them. We may even turn the tables on them by making them our subordinates (protectorate) and thus hold the, perhaps inevitable, war with Epiros off until we are economically strong, until our navies rule the seas - as they should - and we control the trade routes that have, historically, been our strength.

We in this council must take care that we have the information necessary, so that we do not find our armies surprised by re-inforcements. We must demand to know the status of our enemies and the position of their armies.

Demtrias is key. We have won it at the expense of much Greek blood, we must now hold it also; to honour those who sacrificed all in its winning, and to strengthen our position so that we can build up our economies.

Paltmull

02-04-2011, 12:30

I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give theslaves captured in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve.

I will follow my party leader here, and agree with proposals I-VII and disagree with the last one.

"Also on the state of our new Athenian royalty, Doros, i propose we should allow him to join the Spartan Agoge, it would bolster our relationship with the Spartans."

I DISAGREE with this proposal. Are you out of your mind? Do you want to make Doros a Spartan? He is Athenian! He is likely to be an important politician of Athens in the future. This requires a proper Athenian education!

I PROPOSE for our fleet to sail north and blockade the port of Pella, in order to disrupt all Makedon trade that remains.

I AGREE.

I PROPOSEthat we engage an intelligence network, with at least three mobile reconnaissance units; two to operate in greater Hellas, and one to inform us of events in Asia minor.
I AGREE

I PROPOSE that we do not enslave any more Greek cities (perhaps with the exception of Pella). How can we expect others to join our cause if this is how we treat our fellow Greeks?
I think it was wrong of Chremonides to abide the Spartan council and enlave Demetrias. I PROPOSE that he is more careful in taking orders from Spartans in the future. He, and not some Spartan, is the Strategos after all. He may listen to tactical advice though. But he must not forget that he is the leader.

Reply to Gaius Semproius:

If we think to have a unified Greece and we do not include Sparta then that, I fear, will doom it to failure. What shall we do if not co-operate? We shall shift wary glances at each other's dominions until we sink into another bloody war where the credulity of our claims to being civilised will be sorely tested. Meanwhile some other of the Makedonian successors may appear at our gates to pick us off once again. Or will it be the rabble of Keltoi pillaging our countries?

Will our monuments, our buildings and our writings stand for anything if we do not or cannot fight for them against such enemies? Do we, like the Spartans, not honour our own heroes, in death as well as in victory? Has it not been an honour sought among the elite families of Athens, and other free Greek states, to send the most promising of our youths to be trained in the Agoge. There is no 'merely' in being capable warriors.

And who has said anything about a combined state? I would not wish for such and I doubt any Spartan would wish for such. What we ought to have is a confederation of independent states with the greatest emphasis on mutual benefit and advancement. Athens is Athens, and Sparta is Sparta, and long may that continue. I am for Athens, make no mistake, but our future and that of Sparta - as our pasts have been - are tied together. Like two brothers who have different outlooks and strengths we are stronger when we stand united than if we try to undermine each other.

I understand your point better now. I was under the impression that you wanted to form a combined Greek state. I too think that this is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta. However, I still don't trust them. From what I have been told, the strongest Spartan party right now is the Spartan Nationalist Party. Any equivalent to the Koinon Hellenon party does not exist. I say: Let us try to improve our relationship with Sparta, perhaps through some sort of pact, or perhaps even through strengthening Greek identity. But do not forget that we are Athenians first, and Greeks second. We must not let this war end in Sparta being stronger than Athens. We must look to strengthening Athens before anything else.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 13:19

I DISAGREE with this proposal. Are you out of your mind? Do you want to make Doros a Spartan? He is Athenian! He is likely to be an important politician of Athens in the future. This requires a proper Athenian education!

A proper Athenian education is a lifelong ambition, not an achievable goal. A good Athenian aspires until his demise to attain such. Such an education cannot be hindered by experience, will in fact only be strengthened by it. Yes, Doros will likely be an important politician in Athens (and Hellas more generally) one day, but he will also likely have to fight for his country, and command armies of his countrymen. An Athenian commander imbued with Spartan military discipline and know-how will be a formidable proposition, as well as a symbol of what the Koinon is about. The combined strengths of our great states.

Paltmull

02-04-2011, 13:58

A proper Athenian education is a lifelong ambition, not an achievable goal. A good Athenian aspires until his demise to attain such. Such an education cannot be hindered by experience, will in fact only be strengthened by it. Yes, Doros will likely be an important politician in Athens (and Hellas more generally) one day, but he will also likely have to fight for his country, and command armies of his countrymen. An Athenian commander imbued with Spartan military discipline and know-how will be a formidable proposition, as well as a symbol of what the Koinon is about. The combined strengths of our great states.

Alright, let's stick to the EB/RTW limitations. I thought that FM's could only get educated up until a certain age (somewhere between 20-22). If you wait too long they will get the "unschooled" trait. If that's true, Doros won't be able to get an education if we send him to Sparta now.

One solution could be to keep him in Athens until the end of his nineteenth year and then move him to Sparta. That way he will benefit from both his education and the agoge.

However, I still object to him going through the Spartan agoge. This is exactly what I've been talking about. We are already beginning to forget that we first and foremost are Athenians, and that we should embrace Athenian, and not Spartan, ideals.

Due to the opposition that I'm facing, however, I PROPOSE that Doros remains in Athens until the autumn of his 19th year and that he after that goes to Sparte to participate in the Spartan agoge.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 15:02

Alright, let's stick to the EB/RTW limitations. I thought that FM's could only get educated up until a certain age (somewhere between 20-22). If you wait too long they will get the "unschooled" trait. If that's true, Doros won't be able to get an education if we send him to Sparta now.

One solution could be to keep him in Athens until the end of his nineteenth year and then move him to Sparta. That way he will benefit from both his education and the agoge.

However, I still object to him going through the Spartan agoge. This is exactly what I've been talking about. We are already beginning to forget that we first and foremost are Athenians, and that we should embrace Athenian, and not Spartan, ideals.

Due to the opposition that I'm facing, however, I PROPOSE that Doros remains in Athens until the autumn of his 19th year and that he after that goes to Sparte to participate in the Spartan agoge.

OOC

I generally post within character...for the sake of immersion (I'm enjoying this AAR because of it..;-)), so I see your point. I was responding to your more general attitude, in character, with regard to the alliance.

IC

I AGREE with Paltmull's more conciliatory proposition.

pockettank

02-04-2011, 15:11

I still hold strong to Doros undergoing the Agoge, we will have many more Athenian brothers who can become politicians and governors, this man stated himself he'd like to go to Spate and join the Agoge, he wants to learn of their culture and be able to better command them in the future, this man is stepping up and possibly hoping to serve as our Strategos multiple times and lead Helles to greatness. If this man wants military life as opposed to politics i say we give it to him, not all Athenians have dreams to be great thinkers and im sure not all Spartans plan to be great warriors, there are always exceptions to the rule, we should allow the exception we have here his personal glory.

Paltmull

02-04-2011, 15:47

Why not let him do both then?

Molinaargh

02-04-2011, 15:59

@ Molinaargh: Is it possible to see the troops left in the Alliance army?

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6639/043fxw.jpg
The Slingers, Peltastai (Heavy Skirmishers) and Toxotai (Archers) can only be retrainted in Sparta, but Sparta barely has enough population for 1 new unit.

The Hoplitai (Levy Hoplites) and the Hippakontistai (Skirmisher Cavalry) can only be retrained in Athens.

Akontistai (Skirmishers) can be recruited in both cities, but, again, Sparta doesn't have enough population.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 16:32

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6639/043fxw.jpg
The Slingers, Peltastai (Heavy Skirmishers) and Toxotai (Archers) can only be retrainted in Sparta, but Sparta barely has enough population for 1 new unit.

The Hoplitai (Levy Hoplites) and the Hippakontistai (Skirmisher Cavalry) can only be retrained in Athens.

Akontistai (Skirmishers) can be recruited in both cities, but, again, Sparta doesn't have enough population.

What mercenary units would be available to Chremonides?

EDIT

And, what would the costs be?

Molinaargh

02-04-2011, 16:41

What mercenary units would be available to Chremonides?

EDIT

And, what would the costs be?

https://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7015/044to.jpg
There isn't actually any money to hire any mercenaries at this point (I cancelled the buildings in Athens, Sparta and Rhodes to have more money just to so the portraits wouldn't be grayed out. I didn't save the game after doing so, obviously).

jirisys

02-04-2011, 17:18

(...) I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give the slaves captured in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve. (...)

I, II, IV, V, VI AGREES = 5 | DISAGREES = 0
III AGREES = 4 | DISAGREES = 1
VII AGREES = 2 | DISAGREES = 3
VIII AGREES = 1 | DISAGREES = 3

(...) "Also on the state of our new Athenian royalty, Doros, i propose we should allow him to join the Spartan Agoge, it would bolster our relationship with the Spartans."

"Therefore i agree with Luemenes' I, II, IV, V, VI, and VIII proposals, however i do not agree with his other propositions, as we do not have the man power at the moment to push into Macedonia, perhaps we should reserve our men in northern Attike until next year when we have a larger army to take pellas itself." (...)

I AGREES = 2 | DISAGREES = 3

I AGREE with his proposal, a man can learn from whatever age he starts, yet to learn the ways of the spartans, one must be young.

Clearly this is a grave situation. Let's not abandon Demetrias, and waste all the lives of the men that fought there.
I PROPOSE for the Alliance army to march there as soon as possible, hiring any mercenaries it finds along the way. As we'll need funds for this action, no new construction projects should be initiated for now.= WITDRAWN
I PROPOSE for our fleet to sail north and blockade the port of Pella, in order to disrupt all Makedon trade that remains.

I AGREE with Pockettank's proposal.

I WITHDRAWN
II AGREES = 2 | DISAGREES = 0

I AGREE with the withdrawal of the first proposal and the second proposal.

I AGREE with provision 1-7 of your proposal.

I DISAGREEwith your final proposal.

(...) Only a fool does not recognise his own mistakes. Therefore, I Withdraw my mercenary act, and SUPPORT a retraining program. May the gods have mercy on the soldiers guarding Demetrias. (...)

Retraining AGREES = 1 | DISAGREES = 0

I AGREE with your withdrawal and the retraining proposal.

(...) I PROPOSE that we engage an intelligence network, with at least three mobile reconnaissance units; two to operate in greater Hellas, and one to inform us of events in Asia minor. I AGREE with the first proposition that Leumenes made; that we must hold Demetrias. We owe it to those families whose youthful bloom has been plucked. I AGREE that if necessary we must employ mercenaries in order to achieve this aim. (...)

I AGREES = 2 | DISAGREES = 0

I AGREE with your proposal,

I will follow my party leader here, and agree with proposals I-VII and disagree with the last one.

"Also on the state of our new Athenian royalty, Doros, i propose we should allow him to join the Spartan Agoge, it would bolster our relationship with the Spartans."

I DISAGREE with this proposal. Are you out of your mind? Do you want to make Doros a Spartan? He is Athenian! He is likely to be an important politician of Athens in the future. This requires a proper Athenian education!

I PROPOSE for our fleet to sail north and blockade the port of Pella, in order to disrupt all Makedon trade that remains.

I AGREE.

I PROPOSE that we engage an intelligence network, with at least three mobile reconnaissance units; two to operate in greater Hellas, and one to inform us of events in Asia minor.

I AGREE

I PROPOSE that we do not enslave any more Greek cities (perhaps with the exception of Pella). How can we expect others to join our cause if this is how we treat our fellow Greeks?
I PROPOSE that he is more careful in taking orders from Spartans in the future.
I PROPOSE that Doros remains in Athens until the autumn of his 19th year and that he after that goes to Sparte to participate in the Spartan agoge.
I AGREES = 1 | DISAGREES = 0
II AGREES = 0 | DISAGREES = 1
III AGREES = 2 | DISAGREES = 1

I AGREE with proposal I.

I DISAGREE with proposals II and III.

I AGREE with Paltmull's more conciliatory proposition.

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6639/043fxw.jpg
The Slingers, Peltastai (Heavy Skirmishers) and Toxotai (Archers) can only be retrainted in Sparta, but Sparta barely has enough population for 1 new unit.

The Hoplitai (Levy Hoplites) and the Hippakontistai (Skirmisher Cavalry) can only be retrained in Athens.

Akontistai (Skirmishers) can be recruited in both cities, but, again, Sparta doesn't have enough population.

Well, mercenaries are out of the question, then we still must levy from anywhere, Khorintos or Euobia, since Sparta can't, we must have more hoplites or else we will be fighting with psiloi, WE MUST ASK FOR HELLENIC HELP, from anywhere, we need men! It doesn't matter, but we have to be attacking by Spring or Summer! Not before, or our men in the city will be slaughtered.

I PROPOSE that Demetrias is made a garrison town
I PROPOSE that our expansion north is halted until we have more recources
I PROPOSE that we build up our trading infrastructure in Chalkis and Rhodos
I PROPOSE that the Athenian Army is being prepared to liberate Lesbos.

As for the other proposals:

I AGREE that Doros could undergo the Spartan agoge, but he should also recieve an extensive education in our beloved city.
I, II, IV AGREES = 2 | DISAGREES = 0
IV AGREES = 1 | DISAGREES = 1

I AGREE Enyalio's proposals.

~Jirisys ()

Enyalio

02-04-2011, 17:47

(Sweated and filthy from the trip from Piraeus, Enyalio enters the council room and places himself in front of the council)

Fellow counselors,

I have come a long way to take my place among you. My affairs in Rhodos required my attention. The sea and the tides seemed against us, until we made an offering to Poseidon.

Thankfully I see that my arrival is timely to add my voice to this council. Wise decisions have been taken, and foolish ones as well. Yet things cannot be changed, so we will look to our fate as the gods have seen fit. The alliance army is depleated and with it have perished many of our brave and noble sons and friens. So be it. But we must not let emotions of soorow and revenge get the upperhand. We must look to Pallas Athena for wisdom and council.

As such I AGREE with the motions I to VI brought before us by Leumenes. We are at war and must follow its logic.
However, it is foolishness to think that we can break Macedonian power now. Even if we would succeed, losing many more of our noble citizens, we would be in a sorry state to counter the greed of the Epirote, who long to step out of the Macedonian shadow. We must relieve Demetrias and then make it our front, our fortress and garrison against further incursions into Attike

By doing this my friends, my must buy us to most precious commodity of all: time.
Many in this council are too fixated by Sparta that their eyes are blinded. Now that the office of strategos is ours, we must not use it as a Spartan would, pouring our recources into war. Instead we must do what we do best: learn, advance, trade!

Our brothers across the Agean Sea long for us to save them from the Eastern menaces. Rhodos is waiting for us to provide them with men and ships to come to their aide. Let us liberate Lesbos as soon as Demetrias is secure and boost our trading infrstructure so that we have the money to train new recruits and equip our soldies in the finest armour Athens can provide. And whilst doing this it would be another blow to our Macedonian foes.

Therefore:

I PROPOSE that Demetrias is made a garrison town
I PROPOSE that our expansion north is halted until we have more recources
I PROPOSE that we build up our trading infrastructure in Chalkis and Rhodos
I PROPOSE that the Athenian Army is being prepared to liberate Lesbos.

As for the other proposals:

I AGREE that Doros could undergo the Spartan agoge, but he should also recieve an extensive education in our beloved city.

I thank you for allowing me to voice my thoughts in this esteemed council.

(Steps down and walks to the back, hesatating to join one of the three distinct groups on the floor.)

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 18:32

Demosthenes entered the chamber and proceeded to his usual seating position. There he received a report from his trusted slave. He rose and placed himself before the councillors.

"Fellow Athenians, fellow Greeks, I return from a visit to the Spartan council. There I have learned that my suspicions were correct. Athens and Sparta can work together. I will go further; Athens and Sparta must work together. While we dissipate our energies, in the face of the aggression the Macedonians, we weaken ourselves.

I must welcome Enyalio back from his travels, and not before time. We need all the voices of reason we can muster in this council, and it is good to see another who does honour to the Gods. I also AGREE with Leumenes' first six proposals, but as with Enyalio feel that pushing on from Demetrias would be to endanger what gains we have made. So I must DISAGREE with the proposal to attack Pella.

I AGREE that we should make Demetrias a garrison town. I AGREE that our expansion North be halted until we have more resources, for all the reasons given. But for those same reasons I DISAGREE with the proposal to liberate Lesbos with the Athenian army. We need all of our military resources to be directed at allied business, apart from a small garrison for Athens itself. I AGREE that we should build up our trading infrastructure in Chalkis and Rhodos.

I have proposed to the Spartan council, upon receiving information on our financial and military status, that the recently initiated building work in Athens, Rhodes and Sparta be suspended - in order that we might allow Chremonides the chance to engage mercenary troops to help relieve Demetrias."

Demosthenes returned to his seat, and discussed the days events with his slave.

jirisys

02-04-2011, 18:34

Leumenes, almost leaving for Lakedaimonia, stepped up.

"Welcome, it is a shame to see there were not any more Rhodoi with you, yet I'm glad Poseidon accepted the offer and brought you with good health.
Yes, I proposed to strike the Makedonians, because their armies are larger than ours, yet, it is true, we must refrain ourselves and act with calm and thought.
I also agree with all of your proposals, Lesbos must be liberated by the athenian army so the trade may be more fruitful, since I believe the spartans would not make a hybrid attack on lesbos.
Doros should go to the Agoge, yet he must do it while he is young, 19 years old is too old I'm afraid. But the assembly has spoken. If there are no more proposals or discussions, I may now go to Lakedaimonia to hear and advice the assembly. While there are rumors of a Spartan Nationalist Party, which would do wrongdoings in our alliance, some measures to help the alliance must be put in place, we cannot afford any polis to disassemble what we so fruitfully made together."

Leumenes sat down, while he noticed someone stepped up before him, he was going to adress him further.

"Councilor Demosthenes, welcome, I see that you come from Sparte, I believe the roads to be free of bandits, as I must rush, so I will adress your points without going to deep. While I agree with all of those whom you agreed with, the ones who you disagreed would be in the long run, so I understand. I have a problem with the proposal you said you put in place in the assembly, that would make us fall backwards, since all the time would be lost in stopping the buildings, mercenaries are expensive, of course. But do we really need them? These are times when we need to watch our finances, and wasting them in Mercenaries instead of our buildings would be a very big mistake, what if, even with the mercenaries, we are defeated? We would have to yet, regain all the lost money, and build from the ground up our buildings. I will go to the spartan assembly now, so that I may inform my opinions and ask for assistance. Farewell to all, I will try to ride to Athenai if I'm able, if not I will rejoin my Strategos in the camp."

He sat down, asked his slave for the transcript and his horse, he went outside and rode very fast, so he may reach Sparte in time.

~Jirisys ()

Iron Fist

02-04-2011, 21:05

"Who are we to play gods?"

Other senators looked at the source of this unexpected voice. A young man, in his twenties with dark hair and beard.

"Who are we to decide over life and death? Why should we destroy Macedonians?. Like with Spartans, we have had our quarrels and wars with them, but should we really destroy this proud Kingdom Of Alexander? His view on united Greece and world was, was something extraordinary, but unfortunately impossible. The keyword is peace. Macedonians are people, a nation. Why should we Greeks rule over them? When the Macedonians are good who will protect us from keltoi? And after we have defeated Macedonians? We seek conflicts even with Celts, Getai tribes? Or do we seek quarrel with Phyrros Aikiades and his might army with elephants? Or shall we go all the way to Persia? Why don't we go all the way to India then? When does it end? Every nation has right to govern itself."

"I say we raise the siege of Demetrias, reinforce it and if needed, give it back to Macedonians IF needed and then peace. Or we can keep Demetrias as safe guard against any unexpected attacks.

"We rule Greece, not the world."

With that said, Raunos sat down.

Walle

02-04-2011, 21:39

It's a cute and naive idea, Raunos, but an impossible one. Sure we can be kind and peaceful to the Makedonians, but will they do the same to us? Absolutely not, they seek to rule all of Hellas, and will do anything to achieve that. If we don't want to be Makedonian subjects, we have no choice but to fight back.

And by "fight back", I mean take their lands. If we completely leave Makedonia and ignore their lands, they will continue to attack Athenai, and Sparte after that, until the end of time if needed.

It's either we or them, there is no "gray zone".

Molinaargh

02-04-2011, 21:42

This session is now over. Stay tuned for an update in a few hours.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-04-2011, 22:03

"While I agree with some of your points young Raunos, I may do so for slightly different reasons than you do. You think we are the aggressors in this mess? Were the Macedonians not very recently at our gates in an attempt to enslave us? Give back Demetrias? Would you care to explain to the survivors of the battle for Demetrias that their comrades died for nought, just so we could give it back? Will you visit the families of those who gave their lives to explain to them that the poor Macedonians deserve our sympathy? This war is not yet won, let us not forget that. The first move that the Macedonians will make, if they retake Demetrias, will be to enter Attike again, ravaging our lands. No, giving Demetrias is not an option.

You are right to express your concern that next we will face the Epirotes, but not because we wish to subdue them, but rather because they hold a covetous gaze upon Hellas. Once we have secured Demetrias I propose that we defend our frontiers there. We should allow the Makedonians Pella, for now. I have little doubt that they will come under pressure from Epiros. Once they have had a few nibbles then a weakened Pellas my desire peace with us, on our terms.

There is a certain Greekness about the Macedonians, but it is in a wild, feral form. I would not wish them enslaved, merely..suitably chastised into civility."

Iron Fist

02-04-2011, 22:11

" I do not deny that Macedonians started the war, but my mind is not at ease. I do not see Macedonians as so wild and rude, one can not deny that Alexander expanded Greek culture to the ends of the earth. I can already see now that Athens and Sparta will not stop until Macedonians and Epeiros are defeated. But I can see that there is nothing I can do, this war of conquest will go on and on. Already there has been talks of Kyrenica, Sinope and Asia Minor. Where will this end?"

Molinaargh

02-05-2011, 01:13

Small update to the parties:

https://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6701/atheniancouncil5.jpg

https://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2997/hellas.png
Party of the free and united men of Hellas.

Big update coming soon.

Molinaargh

02-05-2011, 01:55

266 BC

Athenian orders:
-Retrain and reinforce the Alliance Army in Athens. (YES)
-Demetrias must not fall. (YES)
-Improve recruitment. (YES)
-Create an intelligence network: Hellas and Asia Minor. (YES)
-Fleet to blockade the port of Pella. (YES)
-Doros will remain studying in Athens for now. (YES)

Spartan orders:
-Recruitment impossible in Sparta due to low population.
-The Spartan Army is currently merged with the Alliance Army and so cannot move independently.
-Replace Spartan skirmishers with Hoplites. (Not yet - they're with the Alliance Army)
-Type III government in Demetrias, the city is to remain neutral. (YES)
-Report on the population of the poleis. (YES)

https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6384/001knp.jpg
The Hoplites of the League Army were immediatly recruited in Athens so that Chremonides could march to Demetrias once again with a strong force, capable of breaking the Makedonian siege.

https://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2936/002cao.jpg
Meanwhile, a promising Spartan wished to marry the daughter of Areus.

https://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3128/003go.jpg
Areus accepted and the marriage between Damasos and Hermine took place in Sparta. This man was now subject to the orders of the Spartan Council.

https://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2352/004ly.jpg
In preparation to the new offensive against Macedon, the port of Pella was blockaded by the Athenian Fleet.

https://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1003/005ot.jpg
When the League Army was ready, Chremonides ordered his men to march to Demetrias.

https://img842.imageshack.us/img842/495/006rm.jpg

https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6966/007is.jpg
Damasos, the new member of the Spartan royal family, decided to prove himself in war, like a true Spartan, and marched with some of his men to join the army of Chremonides.

https://img689.imageshack.us/img689/81/008mg.jpg
When they arrived, the city was already being assaulted. The 33 men under Captain Adymos would have to hold on until the Alliance Army could reinforce the city of Demetrias.

https://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9375/009htr.jpg

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3361/010ms.jpg
The Hellenes and the Macedonians arrived at the same time from different directions. The confrontation would take place inside the walls.

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1438/011tna.jpg
The Hellenes had more time to prepare, and set up an ambushing position so that they wouldn't have to fight the Macedonian phalanxes head-on.

https://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4058/012ns.jpg
Chremonides's plan worked.

https://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2271/013wij.jpg

https://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1489/014hh.jpg
Demetrias was free.

https://img718.imageshack.us/img718/172/015zom.jpg
After the victory, Chremonides ordered the construction of an advanced fort to protect Demetrias from any sudden attacks coming from Pella.

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/218/017pg.jpg
In Demetrias itself, many were the possibilities for how the Hellenes would rule the city.

https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6272/018dx.jpg

https://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1438/019ns.jpg

https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7415/020mo.jpg

https://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6906/021hoa.jpg
As per order of the councilors, a local tyrant was put in power in Demetrias. The walls were repaired as well.

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9323/022hvd.jpg
It seems that some of the population were uneasy with Demetrias joining the Koinon, or perhaps the tyrant wasn't very popular afterall. A revolt started in the countryside.

https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5095/023uk.jpg
Dionys Athoites was the leader of this revolt. Chremonides decided to stop him before he could gather more supporters.

https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6817/024uc.jpg

https://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5816/025cg.jpg

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2276/026ru.jpg

https://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9837/027wn.jpg

https://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3040/028se.jpg

https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1350/029kt.jpg
Meanwhile, in Korinthos...

https://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6600/030uw.jpg
...and in Chalkis, military facilities were improved so that these cities could help with more men.

https://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8296/031io.jpg
Hoplites were constantly levied in Athenai.

https://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7116/032xn.jpg
Also in Athenai, Doros continued his education in the Athenian academy.

https://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8669/033xt.jpg
He was becoming a good administrator, and there was still time for him to join the Spartan Agoge, should the opportunity come.

https://img543.imageshack.us/img543/8505/034ylh.jpg

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1307/035zq.jpg
Damasos, the new Spartan, was learning a lot just by fighting by the side of Chremonides and Eudamidas.

https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8462/036dy.jpg

https://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8118/037oz.jpg
In Pella, two old men fortified the city with a strong army. Perhaps it could be better to wait for them to die before attempting to move further north.

https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5954/038bop.jpg
They were not the last of the Macedonians, though, as confirmed by our spy in Asia Minor. Mytilene was governed by some Euchrous, subject of the Basileos.

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3314/039lb.jpg
He had been sending many armies to attempt conquering Pergamon, and so far had little success.

https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9914/040knq.jpg
Our allies, the Ptolemaioi, abandoned us in our war, but remained as our allies still.

https://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1166/041oe.jpg
And, for the first time, the Alliance had quite a lot of money in its treasure to spend.

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/571/042xh.jpg
The fort was secure, and the Alliance Army was relatively well supplied with men, although these were mostly untrained and poorly equipped levies. Perhaps now the Spartan Army could leave the Alliance Army and go their own way.

The Adventures of Lykkaortas in Megale Hellas

https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4050/63545888.jpg
My name is Lykkaortas, but you may call me Lykkas. I am an Athenian diplomat currently working in Megale Hellas.

https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5127/54201410.jpg
I write to inform our glorious League of Poleis that the Romaioi have conquered the city of Taras recently, advancing their borders further south.

https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1928/34311491.jpg
They have also besieged Rhegion and should soon control all of Megale Hellas.

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3701/20406796.jpg
Other than that, I have recently made contact with Carthaginian authorities and signed a trade deal with them.

https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5148/82666802.jpg

https://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6979/45261957.jpg

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2279/12246856.jpg
So I say this: have you completely fogotten the hellenic poleis in the west? The greeks of Megale Hellas are falling one by one, and Syrakousai is the next target. You should come and aid this city at once! While at it, the fleet could give me a ride back to Athenai.

https://img577.imageshack.us/img577/8021/18024556.jpg
Because I don't want to walk all the way back home.

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
Athenian Boule session now open to decide what must be done during the next year!

jirisys

02-05-2011, 02:30

Leumenes arrived at the boule, joyful as no man.
"HA HA! The makedonians routing is the most joyful sight in my life, YOU SEE!" He was overly excited, yet, with a great reason. "Ares was truly thristy for blood! And those makedonians did not event make a crack on our shield! Those bastards are not worthy of being called greeks, such cowards, running from their men, while still hundreds of them battling, ha! Ares had their revenge, for those who died in the capture and those who died in the defense. It must bring great joy, as we have trumped the Makedonian war machine and at the same time, uniting even more all of the polis of Hellas! Yet, while Ares has given us the bloody rage of death that all greeks must have in battle. Yet, Athena now must possess our minds, as we need to know what to do with this victory. Yes, we have won a great battle, but now, the Makedonians will make either the mistake of attacking us in our own lands and without the professional men they've lost in the siege, or they will stay in Pella and try to rebuild their armies."

Leumenes sat down, so he may think what was he going to say next...

"Now, that we most need unity, in our desitions, I must see, to first, Make a Prytaneia boule of all the polis, every year, so the Prytaneis may reunite and for proposals for the Koinon and it's army. In other matters, we must, if in not inminent danger, give back some men to their polis' army and keep some men for defense of Demetrias, also, we must avoid any other confrontations with any other kingdoms, as it would weaken our polis. This is a time where we must grow prosper, with trade and farming, with buildings. We must let a time for upgrading our economy, buildings, armies, navies and bonds. We must remain in peace, so we may strike like undead men later! However, if needed, a levy athenian army go ask for help to Kretai. But that is as much"

He sat down, writing his list of proposals for the boule.

I PROPOSE we create a boule for the Prytaneis of every polis, each year, so we can decide the orders for matters that affect the Koinon as a whole (such is the army).
I PROPOSE IF NOT IN DANGER OF BEING BESIEGED OR ATTACKED, that we give back some of the men to their own polis, so they may retrain and see their families again.
I PROPOSE we must not get into confrontation with any free kingdom.
I PROPOSE we must improve our infrastructure and economy, with trade rights all over the world.
I PROPOSE we should use some levy athenian army to liberate Kretai.

Leumenes indicated a slave to bring him his transcript and gave an order to him so that he may read it in the spartan assembly.

~Jirisys ()

Molinaargh

02-05-2011, 05:19

History of the Koinon Hellenon, spreadsheet style.

https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3743/history1.png

Does this look blurry to you? The same image looks blurry here but fine at TWC.

Walle

02-05-2011, 06:44

It looks fine to me. Anyway, I AGREE with Leumenes' proposals, but what do you mean by "free kingdom", practically speaking? Could you give me examples?

jirisys

02-05-2011, 06:45

It looks fine to me. Anyway, I AGREE with Leumenes' proposals, but what do you mean by "free kingdom", practically speaking? Could you give me examples?

Ptolemaioi, Makedonia, Epeiros, Getai, Arche Seleukeia, Pontos, etc...

~Jirisys ()

Walle

02-05-2011, 06:57

Ok, and what faction isn't a free kingdom and why?

jirisys

02-05-2011, 06:58

Ok, and what faction isn't a free kingdom and why?

Eleutheroi, because their name means free in greek :laugh4:

(Actually because you are already at war with them (except if your are the Casse))

~Jirisys ()

Walle

02-05-2011, 07:07

Ooooooh of course :idea2: But isn't it kind of inevitable that we fight factions other than the Eleutheroi?

jirisys

02-05-2011, 07:12

Yes, but we must build up our infrastructure before, so we don't fight with levies and without funds.

~Jirisys ()

Walle

02-05-2011, 07:19

I completely agree. I just thought that you meant that we should never fight other factions.

fireblade

02-05-2011, 08:56

Glaucos then spoke

I AGREE with Leumenes proposals, Now is the time to take control over the Aegean,

I PROPOSE for the Athenian army to be reinforced and sail for Kretai, while the Alliance army remains in place to defend against possible Makedon attacks.
I PROPOSE that we build another fleet, so we can keep the pressure on the Makedons while transporting our army back and forth safely.

Walle

02-05-2011, 12:54

I AGREE with Glaucos' first proposal. However, I PARTIALLY DISAGREE :tongue2: with the second proposal. I believe we should wait until we have a more stable economical infrastructure before we build a second fleet.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-05-2011, 12:54

"I, as you all will be, am very pleased with the outcome of Chremonides' actions in Demetrias. He acted like a good Greek, out-thought and extinguished the arrigance of those who believe themselves the true masters of Greece. Methinks they have taken on a little too much of the Persian in their dealings with them and that, combined with their renowned drunkenness, makes them believe themselves immortal. But let us not fool ourselves, in our hour of victory. The Antigonids still pose a threat to our burgeoning Greek awakening. They have a large force in Pella, and I have little doubt that they will not wait, licking their wounds. They will be at the gates of Demetrias before too long. I PROPOSE that we garrison Demetrias, especially with slingers, but also with some good fighting men who can hold the walls. They are strong walls and an army which tries to breach them can be dealt with by a well organised force within them.

What concerns me is the report of their actions from Lesbos, attacking the enlightened Kingdom of Pergamon. We cannot, I think, allow them a foothold in Asia. We must keep them hemmed in in Pella. I PROPOSE that we send a force to Lesbos, to liberate Mytilene and from there to ensure the safety of the free state of Pergamon. The Macedonian force there seems strong, so we must not skimp in our efforts. I AGREE with Leumenes' first proposal, that a dialogue between our councils is convened, so that matters between us are understood. I would not wish that Sparte would see our move on Lesbos as deriving benefit only to Athens, for example.

I AGREE also with your second proposal, it is right that these men - some of whom have been away a good many years no - should see again their families. Given some of our early losses, we need these men with their wives....

While I AGREE in principle with your third point, Leumenes, I think we must know how to avoid this. But also, not be so fearful of it that we freeze. We might end up hemmed in and surrounded by many enemies at once. What is the state of affairs between Epiros and Macedon, are they still at war? If so, our hemming the remaining Macedonian forces into Pella will allow us the opportunity to perhaps pacify Macedon without having to destroy it, for the Epirotes whill surely sense imminent victory over them and attack them. They would then, surely, accept our proposals of peace and protection. We can then use Macedon as a buffer between ourselves and the Epirotes...at least until we are in a better position to deal with them. This has been a hard war, our people, cities and towns will need a little time to regroup before what we all know is an inevitable next war.

But, should we not liberate Pergamon for fear of Pontos? Why should we fear Pontos? They already are at war with us, they attacked our allies in Sinope, without regard for their relations with us. They are a petty Kingdom, with their own enemies. Show enough bite and strength and they will see sense in staying at peace with us.

And talking of their enemies, I note, with some concern, that Halikarnassos was under attack by the enemies of Ptolemy. I think we must keep a close eye on events there. Perhaps, at some future point, we might relieve the place, and then offer it to Ptolemy in order that its protection does not put us on the front line against that Macedonian-Persian abomination, the Arche Seleukea.

I AGREE with your proposal to increase our diplomatic and trade ties. I DISAGREE that we should use our levies to liberate Kretai. I believe that Lesbos is a more pressing concern, because of the position of Macedon there. I believe that the Spartans would be amenable to liberating the island themselves, and this may help to put them off the idea of heading Northward, toward Thermon. For the moment I believe this should be avoided. Thermon is a free city, with no aggressive intent to ourselves. They also act as a buffer between us and the overt aggression of the Epirotes. We should keep an eye on events there, and as and when they are weakened by that Epirote aggression, then we should be ready to liberate it - but not before. We must persuade the Spartan council of the wisdom of that, Leumenes.

May I also say that I am glad that my, somewhat rushed and immoderate, proposal to utilize mercenaries was ignored. It was made with the best intentions, but in ignorance. I did not know that we had the time to re-inforce our armies by more regular means; I believed the situation was more dire than actually it was. But, this shows the strength of the principles of our councils, of the Greek way."

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-05-2011, 13:04

"Glaucos, I must DISAGREE with the proposal to liberate Kretai with an army levied in Athens, for the reasons I have already give. And, like Kairos, while believe strengthening our naval power must be an aim of Athens, we are not yet in a position, financially, to do so."

fireblade

02-05-2011, 13:35

Yet, if we are to attack Mytilene, we have another front to deal with. Be it makedon, pontos or the Arche Seleukia. Kretai on the other hand, is isolated. We can take control of the island and hold onto it with a minimal garrison. This will strenghten our economy, enabling more decisive actions on other fronts. Mytilene on the other hand, will be more trouble than profit for now. If we want to take on Makedon, our objective is Pella, not one of their outlying territories.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-05-2011, 14:03

While I understand your point, I believe that if we allow Macedon free reign in Asia then our efforts in Hellas against them will be for naught. There is much danger from allowing them a foothold there. From there they can spread North, taking the free cities between Pella and Pergamon. We must neutralise Macedon while we can, for if we do not we may end up facing two strong enemies in Hellas itself. I would prefer that what enemies we face would be faced in Asia than in Attike.

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-05-2011, 15:50

Paltmull

02-05-2011, 16:05

I too AGREE with Glaukos' proposal to sail for Krete. Attacking Lesbos now might lead to war with other states than Macedonia. If we are to fight at an eastern front we will need more money, something that trade with Krete will provide. The Kretan garrison is weak and we should be able to defeat them quite easily. After that we can begin thinking of conquering Lesbos.

Also, about leaving Pella for the Macedonians: Remember that the one who controls Pella also controls the mines there. Owning those mines would increase our economy significantly.

Molinaargh

02-05-2011, 20:03

Session over.

Populus Romanus

02-05-2011, 20:13

I would like to start the Athenai Koinoin Trust.
The AKT would promote equal participation of all member states (including Rhodos).
Our color: Blue
Our symbol: the Athenia flag on the OP.

jirisys

02-05-2011, 20:14

I would like to start the Athenai Koinoin Trust.
The AKT would promote equal participation of all member states (including Rhodos).
Our color: Blue
Our symbol:

Aren't you spartan? lol

~Jirisys ()

Populus Romanus

02-05-2011, 20:16

Aren't you spartan? lol

~Jirisys ()

No, I'm Rhodian

jirisys

02-05-2011, 20:16

No, I'm Rhodian

Yet you formed the Spartan Nationalist Party?

~Jirisys ()

Populus Romanus

02-05-2011, 20:20

I am my divine, wise, omnisciencent, merciful, amazing master's Rhodian slave.

jirisys

02-05-2011, 20:21

Fine then, although for that matter you should really join the PFUMH (my party, Party of the Free and United Men of Hellas)

~Jirisys ()

Populus Romanus

02-05-2011, 20:24

Sure, I'll join. I just hope my omnisciencent master doesn't find out. Oh, wait, in that case, he already knows! :whip:

jirisys

02-05-2011, 20:24

Sure, I'll join. I just hope my omnipotent master doesn't find out. Oh, wait, in that case, he already knows! :whip:

You don't make a lick of sense

~Jirisys ()

Populus Romanus

02-05-2011, 20:46

Well, my master cannot stop me from joining the party.

I would just like to congragulate Molina for one of the most entertaining and enjoyable AARs I have ever seen.

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-05-2011, 20:58

"Not exactly, you propose reunification of Hellas while still supporting the athenian method. We, however, share the common name of Hellenoi, wether you be a foreigner or a citizien of a polis, yet they admire our proud ways, to say not that we are athenian or spartans, that we are all greek, yet we have different culture, we must not impose our way of thought to those freed or conquered, but they should make it, from greek basic principles to the ones they have, that's the whole essence of the polis, we must teach them of course, about the polis, and the Tyrannos, and the Hegemon, but to be remembered, as the greeks, not some dualities. We must do what is best for all of us, without also, hurting ourselves or other in the process, regardless of what we think we know, even if Demetrias wants a kingdom, yet, instructs their citiziens of philosophy, we must join each other, yet with enough separation so our polis would be unique, and be not the pillar of our hellenism, but instead, a symbol, of the ways that the Hellenos live their lives.

Yet, of course slaves need to be present. Who would run commerce in sparta, or work for us in our homes, to light our fires and cook our food, yes, they are citiziens of the polis, yet they are not free, however, they, as the most powerful Tyrannos or Basileus, is like all, greek, in some way or another."

Leumenes, very happy with that speech went back to his seat, noticing some spartans were quite happy, but others, not so much.

~Jirisys ()

Arthouros who had been quiet during the last few discussions of the assembly, thinking of the new party Leumenes had formed lately. He decided it was best to address that, least he should be labelled an ἴδιος by his surroundings:

"Leumenes, my trusted philos and honoured member of our assembly, I have been thinking now for a while of the Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα .

Namely let me see if I have got the right picture of said party's ideals: That the Party of the free and united men of Hellas wishes to form stronger bounds with other Hêllen cities, Sparte included, and that we should stand shoulder to shoulder against any foreign τύραννος who take what is most precious to us, our freedom; but at the same time maintaining independence between the cities of Sparte and Athenai as well, not forcing the Spartans to become the best philosophers in the in the greek world and vice versa.

Or as some would put it, Athenai for the Athenians, Sparte for the Spartans, Hêllas for the Hêllenes (and philhellenes as well of course).

I am considering joining this party, but I thought it was only fair to first make sure that the opinions in question matches each other, before I go about and cripple the Arche Athenaia, and by extension our Epistates."

And with that Arthouros once again sat down, trying to remain attentive, and not fall deep into thought.

~Arthouros

Walle

02-05-2011, 21:10

Leumenes, I still don't understand. How does your party differ from ours?

jirisys

02-05-2011, 21:11

Leumenes, tired, saw that he had enough time to get to the boule, so he went to the south, to Athenai first. However only a few men were still there, discussing no longer the proposal but the parties. A slave handed him Arthouros discourse. He proceeded to adress it.

"Yes my friend, however, one must proceed to the details, independence does mean to make actions for our people and our city, but not to try and affect other cities without their request. Such as imposing democracy on Pella when they request a Tyrannos to rule them, imagine if the greek world would be of one color, yet the polis would stand out, not by being the pillars of hellenism, but by being adornments on the pillars, paintings on the walls, not to be the basic principle of hellenism, but being an example of what hellenism can achieve, of course, all cities would have their own government and ideas, yet, we would be united as Hellenos. True Koinon Hellenon. Outside, in the battlefield and in the fields, there would be no Spartan or Rhodoi, no Athenian or Korinthoi, but only Hellenos, the only difference would be the anthropos themselves and their equipment, yet their souls would be united, like a Hetakonchiros, as all of them, Hellenos."

Leumenes had to rush, but waited for his reply...

~Jirisys ()

Vaginacles

02-05-2011, 21:21

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-05-2011, 21:22

As Arthouros noticed Leumenes was in a hurry, he made sure to keep his reply short and straightforward:

"Leumenes, my philos, it would seem our ideals and ideas are of the same kind, therefore I pledge allegiance to the Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα."

Arthouros sat down with a small smile on his face, and an eager look in his eyes.

Molinaargh

02-05-2011, 21:39

Hi everyone, I'd like to bow out of this AAR for the moment. I am in the middle of midterms and have no time to contribute to the potential i could. I apologize for this, but this AAR is great, keep up the good work!.
That's sad, you'll be missed. Good luck with your midterms, hope you join us again at a later date!

Molinaargh

02-05-2011, 21:57

511 (265 BC)

Athenian orders:
-Some men from the Alliance Army to return to their own polis (Sparte and Athenai). (YES)
-Athenian Army to be rallied, reinforced and sent to take Kretai. (Not yet)
-Improve infrastructure and economy. (YES)

Spartan orders:
-Rhodos to supply the alliance with more men. (Not yet)
-Army of Sparte to be reinforced and retrained. (YES)
-Levy hoplites from Chalkis and Korinthos for the Alliance Army. (Yes, but they were sent to the Athenian and Spartan armies)
-Recruit cavalry mercenaries if possible. (No)

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9004/001rhc.jpg
Some of the men from Alliance Army were sent home to see their families and rest for a while. They'd soon join the army of their poleis instead of returning to the League Army. Spartans...

https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7092/002wkq.jpg
...and Athenians both returned home.

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3237/003pa.jpg
The Spartan population problem was slowly being solved. The newest measure was the building of a granary.

https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1066/004bpm.jpg

https://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8548/005gvx.jpg
In Athenai, the improved military equipment was now being distributed to the new recruits. The Athenian Hoplites were now a more fearsome force.

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7436/006dox.jpg
All over the Koinon more men were levied to join the armies of each polis.

https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5134/007ilg.jpg
In Sparta the equipment for the hoplites was now superior as well.

https://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7131/008oky.jpg
In order to continue fighting the population problem, some skirmishers were liberated from military duty and sent to live in Sparta.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4392/009it.jpg
Akrotatos got extremely tired of staying in Sparte and fighting population problems rather than fighting enemies. He wanted some action!

https://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9415/010lai.jpg
The Army of Athenai was ready to leave, with its new hoplites and cavalry from Chalkis. The fleet was also ready to take Doros and his men to Kretai.

https://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1905/011bsm.jpg
But reports said that the Kretaioi had their fleet patrolling the northern coast of the island, exactly where Doros would have invaded from. He decided it was not worth the risk trying to attack now, since it was expected that the enemy fleet could intercept the Athenians before they could land. It would be better to attack after the winter was over.

https://img600.imageshack.us/img600/576/012urq.jpg
The Athenian army then stayed garrisoned in their city. The Spartan one was sent to Korinthos to be trained by Areus, the former Strategos of the Koinon. The Alliance Army under Chremonides still stood ground in the countryside of Demetrias. The Macedonians seemed to present no danger and only sent a few scouting parties to the south of Pella every now and then.

https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2421/013wra.jpg
In Asia Minor, the forces of Mytilene continued to fail in their conquest of Pergamon, but the polis was getting weaker and could soon fall to the Makedones.

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenian Boule is now open again, this time to advise on the actions to be undertaken in the last year before the Koinon Election.

Walle

02-05-2011, 22:41

I PROPOSE that we improve the military infrastructure in Demetrias even further, so we won't always have to go to another poleis for reinforcements.

Arthur, king of the Britons

02-05-2011, 22:42

Arthourus who had returned after being at the Theatrôn for the last 5 hours arrived at the assembly briefly addressing certain matters:

Fellow Athenioi, philoi and trusted members of the assembly, to the far north there is a Basileon by the name of Getai. If I am not mistaken they too view the Makedones as their enemies.

I PROPOSE that we send a diplomat to their Basileus and try to establish trade relations with them, and if possible an alliance, as with such an alliance the Makedones would be facing a more united front, as we are already allied to Pyrrhos, the ruler of Eperios.

That the Kretoi fleet have delayed our strike at Kydonia is unfortunate but it allows us more time to prepare.

I PROPOSE we order our spy at Krete to infiltrate Kydonia, so that when our troops land our spy may have already opened the gate for them, and thus shortening the duration of that campaign, which I believe to be a good thing as we have other areas of interest.

I also PROPOSE that we expand our Agora and/or our trading port, whichever is the most feasible and only of course if we have the funds to spare."

Arthouros stopped briefly collecting his thoughts, before he ended his address.

"Finally I would like to add that I AGREE with the proposal brought forth by Kairos."

~Arthouros

jirisys

02-05-2011, 22:55

I PROPOSE that we improve the military infrastructure in Demetrias even further, so we won't always have to go to another poleis for reinforcements.

Arthourus who had returned after being at the Theatrôn for the last 5 hours arrived at the assembly briefly addressing certain matters:

Fellow Athenioi, philoi and trusted members of the assembly, to the far north there is a Basileon by the name of Getai. If I am not mistaken they too view the Makedones as their enemies.

I PROPOSE that we send a diplomat to their Basileus and try to establish trade relations with them, and if possible an alliance, as with such an alliance the Makedones would be facing a more united front, as we are already allied to Pyrrhos, the ruler of Eperios.

That the Kretoi fleet have delayed our strike at Kydonia is unfortunate but it allows us more time to prepare.

I PROPOSE we order our spy at Krete to infiltrate Kydonia, so that when our troops land our spy may have already opened the gate for them, and thus shortening the duration of that campaign, which I believe to be a good thing as we have other areas of interest.

I also PROPOSE that we expand our Agora and/or our trading port, whichever is the most feasible and only of course if we have the funds to spare."

Leumenes, now on leave, 25 years old, and with a companion in his house, he had now a more calm life. He arrived at the boule early, yet objected to say anything, his mind rambled between his woman, his friends and, most importantly, he was feeling lazy. Yet he stood up.

"I AGREE with both coucilors' proposals. I also would like to propose that the spartans to Aid the allied army (separately) in the seige of Thermon, as the warrior from the barbaroi tribes (who call themselves greek) who are settling there have desecrated the ilustrous Oracle at Deplphi, for which they deserve the cruelest of all deaths... The control of the polis until full integration is completed, may be given to Sparta as a sign of good will. Pella is ammasing a large army, we may need to move our athenian forces by sea to flank them if we end the siege of Thermon quickly. Also, I'd like to welcome Arthouros to my Party, and we may open relations with the spartans in the KH assembly even more."

He handed a note to the orator, with the proposals, in which he proceeded to read it:

I PROPOSE we besiege Thermon and ask the spartan army to siege it separately.
I PROPOSE if we capture it, not to enslave it, as the ones that desecrated are the barbaroi levies who patrol the polis, according to the messengers they sent forth.
I PROPOSE we leave the control of Thermon to the spartans, as an offer of good will and cooperation.
I PROPOSE we move the Athenian army by sea onto the other side of Pella at the same time as the Allied army may return fron Thermon (If possible to do so).
I PROPOSE we build siege engines or insert spies so we may end the siege far more easily, however, at a possible greater cost, so we need the Spartan army for a flank attack.

Leumenes sat down, realizing he had to do some work in the Academia, however, he wanted to stay in the Boule.

~Jirisys ()