ALEXANDER EB

[Maksimus]

I don't like idea of sharing barracks between different cultures (honestly, i don't like any idea which intentionally makes life easier for human players). And remember, that using/building barracks is an abstraction, no way real-life conquerors can recruit their core troops immediately upon conquest of predominately different culture territory, it takes years to migrate enough military settlers in (or convert loyal locals to conqueror's customs). I believe long building times represent these difficulties well.

No.. no.. greeks-greeks barbs-barbs it's just that Getai were an example.. anyway's - they have only possibility of usin 2 Unit's no matter what! And the point is that Celt's for example don't have a bonus of Royal Barracks in Seleucidia at all or in Pella or Athenai - the celt's just don't even have an option to raise any army in greece - exept regional - and that needs to be build

And cultures don't share as such.. they just 'use' ones barracks and can't upgrade them .. like in the cases in history when Nikator killed Thracian King and took Thracian army - and then Ptolomy son kiled Seleucid in a tent and then took the same thracian army and made himself a king of Macedon.. just after he came from Asia Minor into Greece and that army was still fighting after that for Pyrros I think.. :shrug:
And Gonatas had problems when his army left him just before the finall fight agains Pyrros - the whole Macedonian army just swiched sides! And made Pyrros their king.. and after Pyrros was dead they went back to Gonatas..:yes:

There are proofs for this..

Anyway.. the game is even harder for the player with this army system.. when AI could use some enemies barracks - but see, the point is to make Less Army and Royal barracks as a result - that way the chances for retraining options by human would be 0 or +1

YOU SHOULD LOOK on the Recruitment Viewer

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93502

[Maksimus]

And i would rather make it harder. Anything is good that slow down expansion to historical rate. Unfortunately, RTW engine has no such thing as "troop loyalty", nor the city loyalty level is associated with possibilities for troop recruitment. How can we tell if region populace likes conqueror (and/or his people) enough to fight for him? Do they see him as liberator, as useful ally, or as another opressor? RTW can't represent this.

I would rather make it harder too but the "troop loyalty" issue was discussed more time's over.. And we can't tell if region populace likes conqueror (and/or his people) enough to fight for him - but what we may say is that it this case - those are REGIONAL troops - not factional :no: so you and I and anyone can consider them to fight for money - like in the war's of the Successor's states..

But - yes, You are right 100% if we are talking about factional troops.. But if you think that Hellenic native phalanx officer's had a hard time of filling the ranks of their units - I would say no.. really.. I would say yes if Macedons are in Germania or North-East Africa or India - but not in the places that are MARKED in Recruitment Viewer for Native Phalanx.. :shrug:

The point is that you can't retrain units in AREAS that are not mented for that unit to be trained - like in Germania or the Stepes.. And one more thing is here at hand... you know.. When Napoleon at Russia he took about 650 000 men of wich about 180 000 were from the Germanic states of wich about 50 000 of Serbs for Austro-Hungarian Empire .. see, those Serbs even had to go or loose their famillies, and that goes too for many german's...

And.. in those Ancient times the most important were the CULTURES not the rulers by my opinion - all ruler's were tyrants mostly that forced the population to fight to some extend - that extend is wery well done in the Ecruitment Viewer - the '' another opressor '' issues are already implemented by the resources that 'give' an option to train certan units..

please look at the Recruitment Viewr.. anyways - we don't have to implement whole barracks system or any part of it ... it's just that this way WE MOTIVATE players to realy take Alexandria with another Greek culture..

And пријатељу PLEASE HELP more in the BI features.. get some sleep and then type :san_grin:

be well my friend!

[konny]

Oh, okay. I'm probably not that interested in an EB mini-mod that's geared for VH/VH, and am pretty concerned about letting the AI develop golden stacks of anything, since although the human player might capture such a city, the AI definitely wouldn't.

It was allready said, but just to ensure: The AI is retraining, but not everything, everytime, everywhere. It also seems to merge, leave the units as they are and build new ones instead of retraining. I have no idea what influence that decision.

I had so far two occasions in which the AI was constantly retraining: the one was Pella, with its "monster army" and the other occasion is Taras. But the AI is also moving these forces away when the town is not constantly threatened. That happened to the retrained Baktrian "militia force" of what I had posted a screenshot in the other thread, and that had now also happened to the garrison in Pella, where I only could find one full unit of 2x gold Petzhetairoi of the old garrion while the rest were all 'fresh' levy-class units.




My posts are too long.. I know.. one does not read it whole maybe :curtain:

Well, I am to apologize if I had brought up something that was allready discussed. It's getting close to Christmas and the customers are running amok, so I had not so much time today to read the entire thread.


Konny.. do you have a recruitment viewer?

I launch that tool more often than EB itself, planning my next army in every spare minute. :yes:


In the case you mentioned, one general far from homeland would only be able to fill up his ranks according to UNIT - according to the 'resource' - that means he could fill up 'some' low-end unit's ranks in the best and most case those are peltasts - but NOT elites or medium units that we are so afraid of..

OK, let me step in here the first time: I am not afraid of the elites. In fact I am happy when they are offering me anything better than Pantodapoi or Lugoae. And since I often outnumber the AI, not so often with the ALX.exe, I must admit, I don't mind when the overall quality of the AI units is better than that of my army.


The example I have added to the Epeiros is clear really.. They can reach INDIA and can only retrain their low-end troops (some of them) - that means troops that can't win battles for India or Media or the Stepe's .. but can't use elites - unless they take Successor's capital's in wich case they could only profit some units.. see?

That's the fate of the Epeirotes living on the Adriatic shores, I would say. They have no businness to hang around in India. And yes, they get Phalanxes and Thureophoroi from the Succesor major towns because there the needed number of Hellenics is living used to fight in that manner.

May be that example is not so obvious because the Epeirote are somewhat Alexandrish and he was in India. But send them the other way. What means does a top level Casse MIC have for Epeiros? No one there has ever heard of Linothorax, long pikes, fighting in formations, heavy cavalry and the like what makes the Epeirote military machine.


And getai could reach Sparta but could only have ragionall units they would have to develop first

Yes, that "develop" in EB gives me a little headache, because I don't see what the Getai must develop in Sparta to make the Spartans fight as Hoplites. But there must be a way to distinguish the boni of the different governements, and the only way I can think of is spliting the army into "locals" and "factionals".


It is just a matter of resources... so we can add recruitment to any building :smash: or change anything...

But, is that really needed?

[Maksimus]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Konny.. My english is much worse than your's so I have probs in explaining what I think..

The point of my post's that is based on 'tweaking' the ''exp_descr_units.txt'' was already tested by myself in various occasions in my modds for RTW.. I call it Army-system.. Now..My mod is very popular ones in my country just due to that system.. so..but.. ufff..

I am getting sleepy..Ok.. Just trust me on this.. We will test it.. ok?
I will finish those tweaks in two day's and upload it here so we can discuss it .. I am sure it will be fine.. This is what I will mod so it can be tested a bit..


1- Making Faction's capitols start with Army Barrack's (or Royal in case of Seleucid's and Aegypt).. + na army barrack's in Seleucidia maybe ? but we shoud sure make Spartans a royl one so one can use them as they were used against Pyrros:shrug:

2- Make factions share 'use' of barracks but not 'upgrading' them (so the EB share system persist's)

On one side: Hellenes shold share 'use' (epir,mak,kh,bak,as,aegypt) and on the other side barb's (celt's,germania,dacia,spain), the nomads (sar,saka,parthia) and the last - the easterns (pont,armenia,parthia).. Now, Saba, Pontos and Armenia can 'use' hellenic and carthaginina faction's barrack's (as one small faction would have had to use!). Parthia should use only AS's, Baktrian and Aegypt's barrack's, And All barb's could use ''civilised'' factional barracks in the City/Army/Royal level - and that would help them with almost NO UNIT's AT all..

Also, there are some +1 or in royal +2 bonuses (for law and trade) that could be altered

3- This is most important, I will make this test version adding the construction times for barrack's nad Palace's + 4 to + 6 times ..

4- I will add the system for regionall barrack's so anyone can 'use' anyone's regional barrack's (so, here too, the EB share system persist's:curtain: )

I wiil make this in one-two days and post here for tes't - JUST test's .. Ok?

note: Lgk.. for you I will add the manual so you can - copy paste it -- or 7z~:yin-yang: ?

Ok... Of I go!:flybye:

[Lgk]

2- Make factions share 'use' of barracks but not 'upgrading' them (so the EB share system persist's)

On one side: Hellenes shold share 'use' (epir,mak,kh,bak,as,aegypt) and on the other side barb's (celt's,germania,dacia,spain), the nomads (sar,saka,parthia) and the last - the easterns (pont,armenia,parthia)..


4- I will add the system for regionall barrack's so anyone can 'use' anyone's regional barrack's (so, here too, the EB share system persist's:curtain:

Please, no! I don't like shared "auxiliary barracks" in XGM, and definitely don't wish to see such things in EB. Neither with factional MICs. As i said, rebuilding "barracks" is rather an abstraction representing period of stabilization in recently conquered region. In that context, any hindrance to fast expansion is good imo. Come to think, greeks/macedons/epirotes/etc squabbled each other for centuries, and never one "faction" emerged as total victor, crushing all opposition permanently - that is, until very roman conquest. Because of RTW limitations, small patch of ground like Greece can be blitzed in just one year. This is even more aggravated by the lack of regions there in EB (XGM has a much better map in most respects... but that's another story). Maybe only post-marian Rome deserves such bonus as ability to use other factions MICs.

I mean, first and foremost we should think how to delay human player (while not getting him killed early, except that rush should be punishable by death imo - hard to implement, but worth trying) and provide more interesting mid-to-late game experience rather than speed up the AI expansion.


note: Lgk.. for you I will add the manual so you can - copy paste it -- or 7z~
Any way you like.

[Maksimus]

Please, no! I don't like shared "auxiliary barracks" in XGM, and definitely don't wish to see such things in EB. Neither with factional MICs. As i said, rebuilding "barracks" is rather an abstraction representing period of stabilization in recently conquered region. In that context, any hindrance to fast expansion is good imo. Come to think, greeks/macedons/epirotes/etc squabbled each other for centuries, and never one "faction" emerged as total victor, crushing all opposition permanently - that is, until very roman conquest. Because of RTW limitations, small patch of ground like Greece can be blitzed in just one year. This is even more aggravated by the lack of regions there in EB (XGM has a much better map in most respects... but that's another story). Maybe only post-marian Rome deserves such bonus as ability to use other factions MICs.

I mean, first and foremost we should think how to delay human player (while not getting him killed early, except that rush should be punishable by death imo - hard to implement, but worth trying) and provide more interesting mid-to-late game experience rather than speed up the AI expansion.


Any way you like.

Ok.. ok...ok... I will stop working on it this instance :gah:
my god :thinking2: But you must give me proof that you have had a look at Recruitment Viewer - so I know that you are not thinkig that sharing maens what it ment in vanilla?:whip:

...No matter.. ok. I am stoping my work on barrack system right now and I am back to vanilla *txt... What now?
What do you propose?? How do we delay human player so that it would be ok??

(note: We should add those changes to Horse Archer's that would give them 1,2 or 1,5 hit points that should reflect auto-calculations among CPU faction's)

What else? Do you want unit tweak's or some *txt_files changes?

ok


::WE HAVE::

Changes in the EBBS script so we can control money inflows.. and AI expansion's with all features that could be tested Lgk, see with ]Konny that we have ONE way.. for testing.. you know ; I am waithing for you two to go out with something so I can test it:shrug: like upload your done EBBS files here... ok?

Thing's that should be in EBBS script are the added Army barracks for all factions in the capitol's (exept AS that would have one more in Seleucidia) and Royal barrack's for Alexandria and Antiochus and Sparta (so that Spartan's can be used right away)... and building's for Nomad's that would have level ''royalh'' or ''highkingc'' while I think the Saka should be the strongest there...

In export_descr_building's I will add bonuses of law and trade (like +1) for Army and Royal barracks, I also think that Walls shoud have a small bonus, then the Academy.. Here The Academic building's have had one major importance for all in one city - MA Antonius saw that and added it to City Mod.. that is very nice..

Also adding a wall to Pella or Pergam and Armenian and Baktrian and Pontos capital - would be good, also mine's in Pergamum, And Sidon and the Western Province of Armenia - so we can support small faction's players more..

And Palaces should have + 5 or + 8 times longer to build.. so we don't end with super Imperial Cities after 100 turn's - there should not be alot of Huge Cities ...

And Mercenaries should have atleast +1 expirience that would bring realism..

Now... I want comments on these issues please (note: all comment's are welcome but Konny and Lkg are the ones that are needed here:boxing: )

And one more thing - Anything you want to be added or modded - just say..

[Lgk]

Recruitment viewer and AOR system don't matter here. I mean, conqueror shouldn't be able to recruit anybody (even cheap/low quality troops) immediately upon conquest of alien region... even more, he must spend extra time and money to install proper government and build new barracks, thus making his expansion slower.

[Redmeth]

Adding law and trade bonuses to upper tier barracks doesn't seem like a good idea, you already have the city garrison buildings for the law bonus and the trade bonus doesn't feel right, although you could argue that at the highest level they'd produce more weapons than they need thus trade...

Be careful with placing mines, placing them near small factions in rebel settlements could work but don't give them to factions like Maks (be careful of the balance in Greece) doing something might make one of the factions there win in Greece all the time.

[konny]

Ok.. ok...ok... I will stop working on it this instance :gah:
my god

You can mod your files as every you like, but you should always keep in mind that everything you do to slow down or help the humand player will even more slow down or help the AI; unless you use scripts that include a "not faction is local" line.

That is in particular true for raising build times for structures. When you make barracks 4x or 5x slower to build you won't stop the AI from building them anyways. Even more, the AI will build them even when it does not benefit from it. Set your towns to "automanage" and you'll see poping up of local barracks in your very heartlands, even though you will never be able to raise any units from them.

When you have 12 turns (i.e. 3 years) build time for a top level barracks you can be sure that the AI will build them ASAP and whereever possible, blocking the respective towns for three years. The human player is much smarter and would build top level barracks only were desperatly needed. He would (or at least, I would) rather build mines or a harbour before, because having elite barracks is pointless when you don't have the money to pay for the elites.

Now imagine the build time would 12 or 15 years(!). You won't stop the AI from building these structures (barracks and town halls are the first one it builds), but would prevent him from building anything else there in all these years. Most likely, it would lose the town to rebellion meanwhile.


What do you propose?? How do we delay human player so that it would be ok??

We simply don't. It is up to every player to use or not use houserules and to roleplay his characters to set the speed of his advandce. He might or might not blitz the map. I don't do so, but I won't spend any time in preventing other players from doing it.

In fact, I think that EB has allready gone a step to far with the respawning stacks. For the human player these provinces might as well belong to Arabia Deserta - but the AI is butchered there.


(note: We should add those changes to Horse Archer's that would give them 1,2 or 1,5 hit points that should reflect auto-calculations among CPU faction's)

Under absolute no circumstances should any regular units get more hitpoints. Deleting the 2 hitpoints from the Naked Fanatics was about the first things I did with EB 1.0. It is completly unbalacing the game, especially when the AI starts spamming those units.



In export_descr_building's I will add bonuses of law and trade (like +1) for Army and Royal barracks

What do barracks have to do with trade? :confused:

[Redmeth]

The AI will stop spamming Gaesatae or at least will do so in the late game due to changes in their AOR they will be mostly available around the Alps in the area contested by Gauls, Romans and Sweboz although each of the Aedui and Arvernii might get a chance to recruit them...

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

is there any chance that simply using the city mod will solve the balance problem?

[Maksimus]

Well, all I stand for is because I would like to find more balance betwean the game and historic note's - this under show's that EB did not found one;

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9039/resizeofrometw200711190lv6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7514/resizeofrometw200711251cr9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1351/resizeofrometw200711251jv9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Now. Everyone can see and know that you too would like that 'NOT ALL' cities go to Huge or Large - that can be worked out by adding negative population bonuses so the cites that were never big - become big only in the case Human invest's time and money


You can mod your files as every you like, but you should always keep in mind that everything you do to slow down or help the human player will even more slow down or help the AI; unless you use scripts that include a "not faction is local" line.

That is in particular true for raising build times for structures. When you make barracks 4x or 5x slower to build you won't stop the AI from building them anyways. Even more, the AI will build them even when it does not benefit from it. Set your towns to "automanage" and you'll see poping up of local barracks in your very heartlands, even though you will never be able to raise any units from them.

When you have 12 turns (i.e. 3 years) build time for a top level barracks you can be sure that the AI will build them ASAP and whereever possible, blocking the respective towns for three years. The human player is much smarter and would build top level barracks only were desperatly needed. He would (or at least, I would) rather build mines or a harbour before, because having elite barracks is pointless when you don't have the money to pay for the elites.

Well, not for me :shrug: I play on VH/VH and extensive campaigns so I have risks and Heroic victories that are allowing me to Sack enemy town's and raise elites that I need to expand! Look at this, it's my early Epeiros campaign on VH/VH based on Alex.exe
This one is based on Alex.exe and on VH/VH and huge armies
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1504/rome1lm3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
This is the finall battle against Romans.. I had one Heroic infront of Rome :boxing:
https://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4914/battleofromecz6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6914/romefinall2ot2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
And the end of the battle (fought without time limit fo 1 hour)
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6043/20686106na3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
and some against KH in the same camapign
At Kypros fighting Rebel-ends of KHellenon that have been destroyed a battle before after I took Rhodos
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6743/kyproswi9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
I ended very good for me on VH/VH.. the rest is history!
https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3149/kypros1ef0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

And then I was campaigning in North Italy with elites!
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/368/segesta1mi4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/368/segesta1mi4.7bb9ac3daa.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=518&i=segesta1mi4.jpg)
https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2241/segestaid7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
And Massalia !
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5346/massaliasy0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5346/massaliasy0.b106bae5fb.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=518&i=massaliasy0.jpg)
https://img250.imageshack.us/img250/9785/massalia1dh5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

So I think we have different views on EB after all, It's just that I can not Imagine to win agains't Rome without Elites - that is not history! And about money thing - it is not history that Pyrros or Any faction's of that time had to waith for 50! turns so it can afford them :wall:

BUT! Making the Army barrack's at the start will enable ME (for example) to use SOME small number of elites because I play extensive campaign and anyone that does not - so you can have them - but work for them:stwshame:

Now imagine the build time would 12 or 15 years(!). You won't stop the AI from building these structures (barracks and town halls are the first one it builds), but would prevent him from building anything else there in all these years. Most likely, it would lose the town to rebellion meanwhile..

Making the 'core' buildings (for me those are structures that AI is hardcoded to build) construction times last 5 or 10 times more (like we have 30-60 turns for some In EB!) would make AI not develop as fast and furious as it is now and eventually lead that town's don't become Large or Huge (unless you like all those super-mega-cities as early as 150bc). So either implementing a more wider version of City Mod or giving the - high-end Palaces + 3-4 times to construction - would have solve this too..:shrug: I really hate to see Huge and Large cities all around me until a reach Asia with my army from Greece:wall:


We simply don't. It is up to every player to use or not use houserules and to roleplay his characters to set the speed of his advandce. He might or might not blitz the map. I don't do so, but I won't spend any time in preventing other players from doing it.

That's fine.. the game setting's are hard as they are:curtain:


Under absolute no circumstances should any regular units get more hitpoints. Deleting the 2 hitpoints from the Naked Fanatics was about the first things I did with EB 1.0. It is completly unbalacing the game, especially when the AI starts spamming those units.

Konny.. I think you did not get the point (because I did not explained).. EB 1.1 will come with these HP tweaks - only because anything betwean 1 and 2 HP (like 1,2 or 1,6 or 1,9) is just 1 HP for battle's - but is 1,2 for Auto-calculations that AI uses, in that way even when you play against Horse Archers you will have 50% losses with Infantry and most likely loose - but on Auto-calculations you will have 10% looses and win - That is a bug from vanilla.. (the same was for elephant's or chariot's that were owerpowerd in autoresolve but not in played battles) and EB 1.1 will tweak that anyway ..


What do barracks have to do with trade? :confused:
When Army is eqiuped - that takes money and 'Imports' and if you have big army and Armoury - that means more imports and/or even exports if the armoury start's to make arms for export's - Trade Market's can be in this buissines but and can have + 1 to trade when there is an city/army/royal barrack's but due to the 1.5 engine it can not be used in EB for RTW, and I am not sure if that could be used in ALex engine - So the barracks it self give the trade and law boost - even today, armies and their barracks keep economic growth and boost trade and income for local's in more region's of the world than we can imagine. Some times just because for the army state create trade and economic growth :smash:

I know that I am Master of Economy :curtain:

[Maksimus]

is there any chance that simply using the city mod will solve the balance problem?

That may be one solution with some tweak's that would enable more town's to be huge or large - in this case capitol's of all faction's ... but not all cities in Asia and Greece :whip:

[Maksimus]

Adding law and trade bonuses to upper tier barracks doesn't seem like a good idea, you already have the city garrison buildings for the law bonus and the trade bonus doesn't feel right, although you could argue that at the highest level they'd produce more weapons than they need thus trade...

They point is not production - but import's and export's of weapon's and arm material's.. Just one example, the pikes of the phalanx, are made after wood is imported from outside the city - so, when a trader come's and sell's the wood to the army he will gain profit's but he would do that in the market or in the direct conntac't with the army - but then there is competition to that trader that want's a part of the share state is giving to the army.. so you see, the trader's pay a share on their goods when they enter a city.. some part of that can finish in barracks or on the market - BUT the first cause trader's would come to the city is becasuse the State has it's army (that has money given by the state) in the city.. + the army keeps peace and protect's the trade and boost's the trade... Even armoury boost's trade..

And Academy due because it makes smart and rich traders that finish school and that make new markets and banking or investment's system's:curtain:

The Stone Wall's also have nice effect to the trade and and population growth, look at Corintos or Athenai, or Constantinopolis.. No big trade would be in motion in cities without good defences and army.. nor would big population live and boost in 'big' cities without Stone Wall's... There are no big cities without stone walls... that's why CityMod solve's much

But the point is that due to the 1.5 patch engine - EB team can not add bonuses to building's if other building's are constructed:shrug:

So the bonuses must come to the building itself..


Be careful with placing mines, placing them near small factions in rebel settlements could work but don't give them to factions like Maks (be careful of the balance in Greece) doing something might make one of the factions there win in Greece all the time.

I think that there are no mines that should be added to greece - unless.. those epic mines of Pelle (but if that would bring down the balance - then no):san_wink:

[Maksimus]

Recruitment viewer and AOR system don't matter here. I mean, conqueror shouldn't be able to recruit anybody (even cheap/low quality troops) immediately upon conquest of alien region... even more, he must spend extra time and money to install proper government and build new barracks, thus making his expansion slower.

That is in EB already, only thing we can't break is the ''resource'' system of EB, because the EB team made it work by the historic populaiton standard's so you can't have elite phalanx trained in Germania.. Or you can... but after a long time that could take to construct a barrack's.. That long time for Army or Royal barrack's (that would enable elites in Germania should be like 30-40 turn's not less)..:shrug:
But then again, that is without resource system that makes one essence... of EB... and that would take week's to implement.. like - we don't want elephants to be built in Gaul? No? Well then we have to keep '' and resources '' for some units and maybe not for some..

Still , you do understand that if Alexandros went to Germania, he would need like 40-60 years to make local population fight in Macedonian way (like phalanx) for Makedon, unless there are Military settlers

Now.. Militery Settler's could be a solution to that - so We can make that that building also gives option's of training phalanx .. But what about, Celt's in Athenai?? The could not use their naked warriors in Athenai?? No way that that kind of barb population would live the barb way in Athen's and then produce barb warior's. It is more likely that civilised faction's would use their factional troops even in Gaul, but Gaul would not do the same in Greece - becasue they would surrely come through one renaissance and become more Greek that Gaul..

Even Greek's were once barrbarian's.. unitl they came to meat civilisation of Crete and Thera:laugh4:

What would you do?

[Redmeth]

If they conquered Athens the Celts would probably not use Naked Fanatics nor would they have fought in a phalanx in time a sort of Massilian Hoplite would have probably developed but that's fantasy and even if you could argue it's a probable what-if unit the amount of combinations is too large to go down that road. IMO the MIC system in place now does a very good job, if you as the Celts want to conquer the steppes do it but don't expect to be able to train your troops there...

And as royal barracks taking 40-50 turns to build... your really can't block a city for that long whether you're human or AI, I can understand to increase it to 20-25 turns for the royal ones but not more, to limit the AI building royal barracks like crazy everywhere limit their cash flow go down the road of the city mod and money script first. And even if they build those royal barracks it's not like they can retrain their elites everywhere only in the center of their empires...

Playing VH/VH must leave you drained and pretty frustrated take it slower... konny and Lgk seem to be disagreeing with you on some of these points and you should try to all work together and organize this better. I know how it is, you get flooded with what seem like very good ideas and you want to do a lot of things but the thing is (don't be offended) many of them have been probably already tried and proved not be as effective either by the team or by other modders...

EDIT: Phalanxes should under no circumstance be available in Germania they'd have to deforest the place to properly use them, it's not only the population it's the area, in another discussion it was pointed out the Roman Imperial Cavalry Auxilia were light because of the environment in Europe where the geography prevented the effective use of Cataphracts for example...

[Maksimus]

If they conquered Athens the Celts would probably not use Naked Fanatics nor would they have fought in a phalanx in time a sort of Massilian Hoplite would have probably developed but that's fantasy and even if you could argue it's a probable what-if unit the amount of combinations is too large to go down that road. IMO the MIC system in place now does a very good job, if you as the Celts want to conquer the steppes do it but don't expect to be able to train your troops there...

And as royal barracks taking 40-50 turns to build... your really can't block a city for that long whether you're human or AI, I can understand to increase it to 20-25 turns for the royal ones but not more, to limit the AI building royal barracks like crazy everywhere limit their cash flow go down the road of the city mod and money script first. And even if they build those royal barracks it's not like they can retrain their elites everywhere only in the center of their empires...

Playing VH/VH must leave you drained and pretty frustrated take it slower... konny and Lgk seem to be disagreeing with you on some of these points and you should try to all work together and organize this better. I know how it is, you get flooded with what seem like very good ideas and you want to do a lot of things but the thing is (don't be offended) many of them have been probably already tried and proved not be as effective either by the team or by other modders...

EDIT: Phalanxes should under no circumstance be available in Germania they'd have to deforest the place to properly use them, it's not only the population it's the area, in another discussion it was pointed out the Roman Imperial Cavalry Auxilia were light because of the environment in Europe where the geography prevented the effective use of Cataphracts for example...

You are right about the system:stwshame: , it's really a fantasy to know what could have happend, that is why I am for the use of EB 1 or EB 1.1 solution's in means of resources and even share system - as it is :whip: ..

We all agree that Editing the EBBS is one step forward, Konny is working on it as well as Lgk.. but it seems that I am waithing for them to upload their files here so I can see it.. Konny needs to address the remarks on EBBS that Lgk made - in terms of solution's.. :shrug:

And me, well I am for changes it's just that I can not stand the fact that all cities are Large or Huge untill 150bc :wall: - and that alone is to much for me.. to much in all respect's
I also belive that all capitol's should have Army barracks at the start so their factions can use unit's they really had in that time.. and then add the 20-25 turn's c_bonus for Royal and Army Brcs. , and that faction's should make more money in general.. The bonuses for various buildings are not that important..

One more thing, Is or can CITY MOD be a solution for this gap's?.. We can make more town's to be huge or large - all faction's capital's should be huge by definition.. What do you think?:viking:


I am waithing :curtain:

[Redmeth]

Factions making more money... some maybe but as Epeiros I had all of Greece and Krete + Serdike I believe (abandoned Taras at the start to let Romans expand) and I had a million by 250 so you can do very well if you're not completely surrounded by enemies.

Access to elites at the start... you could do that capitol thing it won't influence the game much giving every capital a L4 MIC

City Mod.. didn't use it too much can't say it could help. Limiting the huge cities could be more historical but it will not solve your army problems because MICs aren't tied to city size so having huge cities by 250 is not bad for the conqueror (they ensure a lot of loot) it might weird having all those huge cities but huge is relative it's a term in the game it's population over 16000...

The main problem is AI retraining and in order to cope with that you'd probably be better off with a money script that's not so generous to the AI. The balance is really hard to find going from hyperactive to stagnating will make you go :wall: . And stagnating is worse than hyperactive IMO.

Human players using steppe factions will probably be in for a crazy ride but I believe playing a Greek or Roman faction on M diff battles and bringing 2 stacks at least for invasion, striking hard and reinforcing with mercs etc will probably be enough to topple even a powerful AS or Ptolies, even if they're retraining if not go raiding take out their recruitment centers in the empire's heart, raze their barracks and the rest of the buildings and they will take a lot of time to regroup.

[Maksimus]

Factions making more money... some maybe but as Epeiros I had all of Greece and Krete + Serdike I believe (abandoned Taras at the start to let Romans expand) and I had a million by 250 so you can do very well if you're not completely surrounded by enemies.

Access to elites at the start... you could do that capitol thing it won't influence the game much giving every capital a L4 MIC

City Mod.. didn't use it too much can't say it could help. Limiting the huge cities could be more historical but it will not solve your army problems because MICs aren't tied to city size so having huge cities by 250 is not bad for the conqueror (they ensure a lot of loot) it might weird having all those huge cities but huge is relative it's a term in the game it's population over 16000...

The main problem is AI retraining and in order to cope with that you'd probably be better off with a money script that's not so generous to the AI. The balance is really hard to find going from hyperactive to stagnating will make you go :wall: . And stagnating is worse than hyperactive IMO.

Human players using steppe factions will probably be in for a crazy ride but I believe playing a Greek or Roman faction on M diff battles and bringing 2 stacks at least for invasion, striking hard and reinforcing with mercs etc will probably be enough to topple even a powerful AS or Ptolies, even if they're retraining if not go raiding take out their recruitment centers in the empire's heart, raze their barracks and the rest of the buildings and they will take a lot of time to regroup.

I was thinking of adding the Army/Royal barrack's hidden resource.. and expanding the City mod option's to more huge and more large town's to be enabled... Also, all faction's Capitol's should have an option enabled to to run Huge or Royal/Army barrack's..

I agree about ''striking hard'' strategy it's just you have to be mean to do that :boxing:

[konny]

https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/368/segesta1mi4.jpg

You are searching for solutions of problems that do not exist. In EB you do not need high experinced Agema Phalanx and artillery to win against Lugoae, Gaeroas and the like half naked savages. When I go for Segesta in all my many Roman campaigns my army is composed of inexperinced Camillans, supported by some Greek allies from Taras (Hoplites and Peltasts); and I usually win this battle without serious problems. And that's ok, because my lads are better armoured and armed than this Celtic mob.

But when you insist in playing on VH/VH, everything is seriously messed up, beginning with the overaggressive behaviour of the AI (did you know that they get a hardcoded 10,000 mne bonus every turn on top of everything that the script is granting them?) and ending with barbarian levy spearmen that cut your professional Greeks to pieces.

So, it's quite easy: change the settings back to default (M/M), play some campaigns and after that decide if there is a misbalance in EB or if there is not. As long as you use some houserules to not exploit the AI stupidity (both on the strategical and on the tactical screen), you'll should come up with the sollution that EB itself is well balanced.

----------------------
BTW, you have again nearly no medium infantry in your amry.

[Maksimus]

https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/368/segesta1mi4.jpg

You are searching for solutions of problems that do not exist. In EB you do not need high experinced Agema Phalanx and artillery to win against Lugoae, Gaeroas and the like half naked savages. When I go for Segesta in all my many Roman campaigns my army is composed of inexperinced Camillans, supported by some Greek allies from Taras (Hoplites and Peltasts); and I usually win this battle without serious problems. And that's ok, because my lads are better armoured and armed than this Celtic mob.

But when you insist in playing on VH/VH, everything is seriously messed up, beginning with the overaggressive behaviour of the AI (did you know that they get a hardcoded 10,000 mne bonus every turn on top of everything that the script is granting them?) and ending with barbarian levy spearmen that cut your professional Greeks to pieces.

So, it's quite easy: change the settings back to default (M/M), play some campaigns and after that decide if there is a misbalance in EB or if there is not. As long as you use some houserules to not exploit the AI stupidity (both on the strategical and on the tactical screen), you'll should come up with the sollution that EB itself is well balanced.

----------------------
BTW, you have again nearly no medium infantry in your amry.

These campaign's in North Italy are with Elites just because I was gaining expirience for Asia (and I wanted to take towns in one turn - that is why I used siege:square: ). - But when I reached Asia Minor.. And When ALL CITIES HAD ARMY BARRACK'S :wall: - (I don't have a picture of it because I deleted my save - maybe later)..

I was starting to loose because AS were retraining their medium and elite infantry in: Sardis, Galatia, Ipsos, even in Halikarnasoos. Eventually I even had my phalanx elites with level 7 expirience when they crossed to Asia Minor.
But AS had RETRAINED ELITES too! from Sardis and Ipsos.. see?? I wont use Medium for Campaign, meybe for Battle in future:shrug:

In battle of Sardis (during my siege) I had 8 elite phalanx level 5-7 exp, and Pyrros and stepe archers and siege eq. BUT Seleucid's HAD TWO ARMIES WITH 9 phalanx medium and 7 phalanx elite... So? Now? What? Even on Medium it is to hard to win:ballchain: ?!

I wanted to pull back first but than I wanted to test it - so I won loosing 80% of my army..:gah: .. And two turns away were another full stack's of AS army..

So you are right about the EBBS (please upload ti to me:san_wink: ) and what is more important :: NO.. I belive EB is not balanced well - NOT for Alex engine...:shrug:

Hope you are not mad at me for forcing this :curtain: but just try to test with EBBS that gives Army barracks to capitol's and then see..

[Maksimus]

[IMG]https://img454.imageshack.us/img454/184/82804445nv8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
[IMG]https://img458.imageshack.us/img458/30/83246584yg7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
[IMG]https://img458.imageshack.us/img458/4025/35526771sv0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
[IMG]https://img454.imageshack.us/img454/304/57380661lu0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

This is just an example of modded City Mod.. with hidden resources added for testing
in ''descr_regions.txt''
Baktria
Baktra
romans_brutii
Baktrioi
20 155 2
silk, gold, textiles, camels, river, persia, EA, D, n1, n2, n4, y8, city, large, baktriaarmy
5
2

Makedonia
Pella
macedon
Makedones
177 58 145
gold, timber, tradeport, navyport, smallfleet, SW, C, n1, n2, n4, y8, city, large, makedoniaarmy
5
2

and in ''export_descr_buildings.txt''

;Helix 4 build
;This file is generated from a spreadsheet
;Please do not modify by hand barracks and core building


hidden_resources rome sparta italy desert tradeport navyport bigport not_here nomad mixed river gallicport smallfleet variantro variantgr variantba variantno variantca varianteg variantea EA SW NW A B C D E y1 y2 y4 y8 n1 n2 n4 n8 homeland pahlavahome noroads nopavedroads persia city large huge makedoniaarmy baktriaarmy

...
royal_barracks_K1
}
}
royal_barracks_K1 requires factions { romans_brutii, macedon, } and building_present_min_level government gov1 and not hidden_resource not_here and hidden_resource makedoniaarmy or hidden_resource baktriaarmy
{
....

That can control Army/Royal barrack's constructions as an example for any faction by just adding the hidden_resource to the ''descr_regions.txt''... so.. that can be done for any building.. Like dock's.. or Walls or Academies.. or really big temples.. or ... Trade bonuses..

In those two cases up I have tested in the MAK/BAK share system and then tested the City Mod.. we can all see that the development is fair even for Demetrias and Markanda even if they could grow up to just City size:square:

And even do Pella and Baktria should be able to be Huge in size - the example is good for Army issue:san_grin:

This can keep AI strong still, but without elites all across the map .. Besides this is more historic than anything..

what do you think??

[Lgk]

That is in EB already,
No it isn't - not exactly anyway, only some barracks are shared, and sometimes in weird combos like Saba and Lusotana (i guess EB team tried to limit overall number of buildings). But you proposed to share all regional barracks which is very bad thing imo.

Also, long (though not ridiculously long!) building times for hi-level MICs isn't such a bad idea since AI has hard time expanding anyway, and will eventually build them in accordance to his expansion pace, but human player will be of course hindered. It may work that way, and has to be thoroughly tested in any case. Also, maybe it's possible to make MIC building like Port building - ie speed depending on hidden resource. Maybe it's better way.

[Maksimus]

No it isn't - not exactly anyway, only some barracks are shared, and sometimes in weird combos like Saba and Lusotana (i guess EB team tried to limit overall number of buildings). But you proposed to share all regional barracks which is very bad thing imo.

Also, long (though not ridiculously long!) building times for hi-level MICs isn't such a bad idea since AI has hard time expanding anyway, and will eventually build them in accordance to his expansion pace, but human player will be of course hindered. It may work that way, and has to be thoroughly tested in any case. Also, maybe it's possible to make MIC building like Port building - ie speed depending on hidden resource. Maybe it's better way.

In proposed barrack's system to make faction's share the 'use' of barrack's not upgrade option's.. And that was first for Hellenes among Hellenes and barb's among barb's,

They could share use only in Army/Royal level:shrug: , If the advanced hidden resource system for high-end building's works well, Then the use of rare army/royal barrack's in Hellenis world would not be such a problem
That idea is very dynamic.. :thinking2: .. we can also add :

IF AND hidden_resource conditions for Makedonian use Seleucid's Army barrack's in Antioh IF there is A resource GOV, level

like in SELECID's barrack's
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
recruit "hellenistic cavalry prodromoi" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, macedon, } and hidden_resource SW and hidden_resource D and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource y4 and hidden_resource n8 and building_present_min_level government gov3
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

By that we are solving the problem of ''adoption'' of enemy region (but remember that those are hellenes/barb's that adopt hellenes/barb's and only in some Cosmopolitan town's).. the transition period in wich you can recruit local population (or even consider it to be ''recruited'' population that comes from the rest of the empire ):shrug:

[Felix Constantus Alexander]

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"]Ok.. ok...ok... I will stop working on it this instance :gah:
my god :thinking2: But you must give me proof that you have had a look at Recruitment Viewer - so I know that you are not thinkig that sharing maens what it ment in vanilla?:whip:

...No matter.. ok. I am stoping my work on barrack system right now and I am back to vanilla *txt... What now?
What do you propose?? How do we delay human player so that it would be ok??

hold on now...

Maksimus with the AOR, I agree with you 100% on the shared barracks because the buildings should not be upgradeable in most cases anyway right (I don't know where to look in the code to 100% certain though).

also the build times for the barracks are fine, more then 12 turns is what +3 years? The ancients were not primitive, just ancient...

A hidden resource with Ports wouldn't be a bad idea to try for units that need certain imports for equipment, but someone with better knowledge of the script could say more on how it could workout. :rtwyes:

Also, could another hidden resource be added to gov't buildings for the aor, if there are still concerns about recruiting (like adding something that a city must be held 10 turns to recruit from there)? :book:

besides the loyalty issue should be thought about in context of the cities, where factions (inside the city) would support different sides, so somebody in the city could be willing to fight for the conquerors, and they get paid for their service, and maybe they could be scripted to cost more? :book:

and if cheap or "mercenary" type units are recruitable then it should be fine anyway, because they are being paid to be fight,

weren't the Italian allies of the Romans asked for troops once Rome ruled over them?

please don't take what I saying as an attack, I'm just trying to help elaborate some good ideas, that others have made :ahh:

cheers

[Lgk]

Repeat: bad thing about shared "barracks" is not sharing per se, but conqueror's ability to use conquered MICs immediately upon conquest (even damaged buildings are repaired in one turn). Is it so hard to understand? I mean, hi-quality assault army has to be pinned in recently taken region for some time... while things like shared barracks encourage rush - it's to easy to raise cheap garrison of presumably "local" troops, while main army rolls over the rest of enemy territory.

I think even close cultues MICs should be made different only for that reason.

-----

P.S. MIC-sharing is acceptable if made like one-way street - that is, beneficial to the victim and useless for agressor. Imagine we have some sort of hidden resource "saba_supporters", roughly corresponding to regions with substantial arabic/semitic population. Then come the evil Ptolemies and conquer one such region. Now, they can't use any MICs that happen to be here - they have to build their own. And after some time, they do (btw any existing MICs probably will be sold, at least if human controls these Ptolies). Meanwhile, noble Sabaeans march their mighty armies in and liberate the city from macegyptian yoke! And guess what - now they can use ptolemean MIC built here, because it's much easier for Sabaens to gain support here.

[Maksimus]

Repeat: bad thing about shared "barracks" is not sharing per se, but conqueror's ability to use conquered MICs immediately upon conquest (even damaged buildings are repaired in one turn). Is it so hard to understand? I mean, hi-quality assault army has to be pinned in recently taken region for some time... while things like shared barracks encourage rush - it's to easy to raise cheap garrison of presumably "local" troops, while main army rolls over the rest of enemy territory.

I think even close cultues MICs should be made different only for that reason.

-----

P.S. MIC-sharing is acceptable if made like one-way street - that is, beneficial to the victim and useless for agressor. Imagine we have some sort of hidden resource "saba_supporters", roughly corresponding to regions with substantial arabic/semitic population. Then come the evil Ptolemies and conquer one such region. Now, they can't use any MICs that happen to be here - they have to build their own. And after some time, they do (btw any existing MICs probably will be sold, at least if human controls these Ptolies). Meanwhile, noble Sabaeans march their mighty armies in and liberate the city from macegyptian yoke! And guess what - now they can use ptolemean MIC built here, because it's much easier for Sabaens to gain support here.

I had na idea of enabling faction's to be able to use anyone's barrack's in neighbor region's (exept AS and Aegypt) that could be done by adding the hidden_resource's neighbor region's (so that Armenia can benefit of it in region's arround their capital):shrug:

And Felix Constantus Alexander your ideas are nice - we must see what to do... it's just that you need to give more concrete example:san_grin:

[Lgk]

Anyway, i don't even see if these changes exclusively mean Alexander... :) Let us stick now to minor (but essential) edits like revising rebel garrison strenths and rebel generals ages. Eg some settlements meant for initial expansion like Gava-Saka after a couple of turns always end up having monster garrisons.

[Maksimus]

Anyway, i don't even see if these changes exclusively mean Alexander... :) Let us stick now to minor (but essential) edits like revising rebel garrison strenths and rebel generals ages. Eg some settlements meant for initial expansion like Gava-Saka after a couple of turns always end up having monster garrisons.

The mod we make can be used for any EB *exe based game.. What is more important for Alex is that we can add more unit's due to the high-end limit's in descr_models_battle.txt so EB team can mybe even give us data to implement some unit's they just can't 'push' in because of the RTW engine...
:san_grin:

[konny]

Let us stick now to minor (but essential) edits like revising rebel garrison strenths and rebel generals ages. Eg some settlements meant for initial expansion like Gava-Saka after a couple of turns always end up having monster garrisons.

You can delete the recruitement entries for the provinces you don't want a specific faction/the rebels to train/retrain anything.

The rebel generals prevent the garrison from leaving the town. You can use that for a couple of things: once the garrison leaves the town it usually moves to the next border. That often provokes an attack by an AI faction, followed very often by an invasion of the province. That one is in most of the times successfull because the AI had sent an army that was able to defeat the moving major part of the garrison and has therefore no problems to deal with the remaining defenders.


You can make the generals in rebel towns that you want the AI to take quite early very old and those that they should take late very young. You can also, taking into account the ALX.exe, give the immortal trait to those you don't want the AI to conquer without serious problems.

[Maksimus]

You can delete the recruitement entries for the provinces you don't want a specific faction/the rebels to train/retrain anything.

The rebel generals prevent the garrison from leaving the town. You can use that for a couple of things: once the garrison leaves the town it usually moves to the next border. That often provokes an attack by an AI faction, followed very often by an invasion of the province. That one is in most of the times successfull because the AI had sent an army that was able to defeat the moving major part of the garrison and has therefore no problems to deal with the remaining defenders.


You can make the generals in rebel towns that you want the AI to take quite early very old and those that they should take late very young. You can also, taking into account the ALX.exe, give the immortal trait to those you don't want the AI to conquer without serious problems.

I am not for use of 'immortal' trait's or change's to one's age that are not supported by historic note's - unless EB team made up some of those rebel general's. We can add more of them if that could be one solution (or add figures that are not mentioned at all:shrug: ).

[konny]

I am not for use of 'immortal' trait's or change's to one's age that are not supported by historic note's - unless EB team made up some of those rebel general's.

:dizzy2:

Yes, the immortal trait would be ahistoric (as long as we don't have the Count de Saint Germain in). And no, no one would ever say that the EB had made up rebell generals - as long as no one would ask for the proof for the garrisons commanders in all steppe and jungle settlements, or how it comes that Thermon is defended by a body that is allready cold for some 80 years.

[Spoofa]

the immortal trait would be good for garrison commanders of the rebel faction for gameplay purposes.

[Maksimus]

I have updated the main post!

https://img467.imageshack.us/img467/3567/alex1ln3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

:san_wink:

[Maksimus]

:dizzy2:

Yes, the immortal trait would be ahistoric (as long as we don't have the Count de Saint Germain in). And no, no one would ever say that the EB had made up rebell generals - as long as no one would ask for the proof for the garrisons commanders in all steppe and jungle settlements, or how it comes that Thermon is defended by a body that is allready cold for some 80 years.

Then ok, we can add as many as we want :shrug:

[Maksimus]

I have updated the main post - Konny, Lgk - read it please:san_wink:

People.. Speek your mind!:curtain:

[Lgk]

Huh, i meant some rebel generals to die faster, so AI can expand earlier. Well, maybe immortal generals in border regions is a good idea. Or those near a player faction (checked in campaign script).

Btw, does anybody know if traits like "fears/loathes somefaction" make any difference in autocalc, esp AI vs AI?

[Maksimus]

I think they do! Lgk - Did you add + 0.2 hit point's to HArchers in your unit.txt file? How does it work for C_Game?:thinking2:

[Lgk]

I hadn't tested my EB campaigns for too long, initial stages only. And EB is damn slow on my comp, so i can't tell yet.

But in XGM it worked well.

[Maksimus]

Saw those featurs on the main post - any ideas? Also, there are some solution's I saw on the main XGM post that are calling for options ''supress'' population's not exterminate it.. see this post

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90798

What do you think?

[Perturabo]

May not be the exact place to post this however it is relevant.
Playing EB 1.0 on Alex.. have noticed that the Ptolies are considerably stronger than in BI. I was thinking of changes such as money scripts and so on, however had another thought:

At present when the Ptolies expand into Seleucia, when they capture a town immediate training (and retraining) of troops is possible as they both use the same faction MIC's. If this were not the case expansion may be more realistic.. i.e. even if Ptolies/Selucids have a massive financial advantage over their enemies, they still need to slow down and produce barracks prior to recruiting, and for a while the troops will be very low in quality.
If pushed back into their own lands they will have immediate access to top quality troops and so easier defence.
Now a way to do this might be if the Ptolemaic Empire (sp) uses the same MIC as the Baktrians, and Selucia uses the same MIC as the Karthies...
I realise this may not be quite as realistic as the EB team planned (and there are likely to be other problems with it that I am not aware of), however it should greatly slow down the Ptolie/Selucid instant domination which, quite frankly, is game ruining at present.

I usually end up playing 'Global Policeman' rather than enjoying myself the way it is at present, and trying to prevent faction extermination. The game just doesn't seem right with 3-4 super factions squabbling over the planet, and as a result usually I end up starting another game by 220BC or so, if not earlier as it gets too frustrating.

Please discuss :idea2:

[Maksimus]

Please - follow thi thread for mod talk's https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96135
Because we might get closed:san_wink:

This thred is only for announcement's that have no mod's in:no:

I will answer there!:san_wink:

[Maksimus]

For Perturabo!
May not be the exact place to post this however it is relevant.
Playing EB 1.0 on Alex.. have noticed that the Ptolies are considerably stronger than in BI. I was thinking of changes such as money scripts and so on, however had another thought:

At present when the Ptolies expand into Seleucia, when they capture a town immediate training (and retraining) of troops is possible as they both use the same faction MIC's. If this were not the case expansion may be more realistic.. i.e. even if Ptolies/Selucids have a massive financial advantage over their enemies, they still need to slow down and produce barracks prior to recruiting, and for a while the troops will be very low in quality.
If pushed back into their own lands they will have immediate access to top quality troops and so easier defence.
Now a way to do this might be if the Ptolemaic Empire (sp) uses the same MIC as the Baktrians, and Selucia uses the same MIC as the Karthies...
I realise this may not be quite as realistic as the EB team planned (and there are likely to be other problems with it that I am not aware of), however it should greatly slow down the Ptolie/Selucid instant domination which, quite frankly, is game ruining at present.

I usually end up playing 'Global Policeman' rather than enjoying myself the way it is at present, and trying to prevent faction extermination. The game just doesn't seem right with 3-4 super factions squabbling over the planet, and as a result usually I end up starting another game by 220BC or so, if not earlier as it gets too frustrating.

Please discuss :idea2:

I understand what you mean:yes:

The share system EB team created has alot of weak spot's, - the AS - Aegypt barrack's share is just one of them, but one of the most important (especially on Alex.exe). At the other side - It is clear that Makedonia does not share with Epeiros (and there are proof's they did) just because some EB member's think that one faction might win in Greace to quick - that is the same case in Global picture it's just that no one wanted to look that far (basicly Aegypt always wins) - especially with Alex.exe!

So, If you are to come to Asia Minor as Roman or Celt - in some time when Aegypt already has Antioh or Sardis and Royal - Army barrack's in EVERY TOWN (wich is another - to EB system), then, you willl never win or you would have to cheat! And we don't want that :san_wink:

So, first you can alter your EBBS like Konny did or like Lgk made one clear example in this thread, and second, you might waith for our mod that will be done for EB 1.1:shrug:

The changes to EBBS script are in progress, however, the Alexander EB team will need to test more untill one clear solution's would come.

And further more - The AI expansion is not all about the EBBS script, there are City Mod option's for High End Barrack's or Palaces so the AI does not have the money and the Huge-Mega-City-Empire as early as 160bc.. If you read the thread you will learn more.)

So, I understand you - but you will need to either alter the EBBS manually or use some already made - just for the first aide:san_grin:

[Maksimus]

the immortal trait would be good for garrison commanders of the rebel faction for gameplay purposes.

Yes ... , even better, If there are really serious prob's with rebel region's loosing easy after Rebel Character dies maybe all of rebel Character's should have immortal trait...:shrug: If not, ... then a trigger in EBBS could add more Rebel FMember's in the game??

Konny? Lgk? Can this be done - can we trigger new Rebel FMember's in rebel region's after 20 year's or so??

That way we make some interesting battles for player's that take it slow :chucks:

[Perturabo]

Thanks Maksimus, I wasn't aware the new thread existed.
I like the way LGK et al are thinking.

In my opinion there is no problem with the way the game goes for a Human Player, but the AI really needs a major revamp to prevent insane expansion. Historically Alexander the Great/the Romans were highly unusual in the speed they expanded at, generally it was not unusual for two cities to fight each other for hundreds of years with no concrete outcome (refer Greek Cities in particular).

I would also like to reiterate the idea of rebel city based generals being immortal, or replaced upon death. Otherwise the stack ups and wanders on death of said family member leaving the city open to easy conquest. This is particularly a problem in the east with the Indian cities being easy picking for AS or Baktria at that time.

I am also no great fan of having all factions being able to recruit all troops everywhere with time. Hats off to the EB team for doing a great and realistic job on where troop types are located in the world. Main problems imho, in no particular order:

1/Shoddy AI that backstabs Allies with no provocation or reason (coded to attack human players whenever possible or if said player has not been at war for a certain amount of time). I realise modders have little ability to control it however we can only dream :wall:

2/ AI ability to recruit Elite troops instantly upon conquest of new territories i.e. Ptoly/Selucia in particular, leading to unstoppable superpowers.

3/ Crashes. I seem to get more crashes under Alex than RTW or BI, generally after a heroic battle. Needless to say that is frustrating after a 2 hour fight.

Those are the glaring weaknesses that I can see immediately, compared with the vanilla game shows just what a brilliant job the whole EB team have done. They certainly can be proud of this game :applause:

Please don't see any of this as being criticism.. if I didn't like the ideas or this game I wouldn't take the effort to post (I am at best a lazy git) :beam:

[konny]

May not be the exact place to post this however it is relevant.
Playing EB 1.0 on Alex.. have noticed that the Ptolies are considerably stronger than in BI. I was thinking of changes such as money scripts

The Ptolemaioi are always stronger than AS. The reason is that both start with a very weak army, but Egypt is faster in developing her (fewer) towns and bring forces to the front. AS might need decades, when controlled by the AI, to get a strong field army into Syria.

Nevertheless, any changes to AS must be carefully tested because everything you do to strengthen them against Ptolemaioi might, and will, be used by the AI to go against the fragile starting position of Pontos and Armenia.

[konny]

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"]Yes ... , even better, If there are really serious prob's with rebel region's loosing easy after Rebel Character dies maybe all of rebel Character's should have immortal trait...

No, not all. There are regions where the AI should expand to and take them easy and early. For example Pontos, Getai and Armenia should not face any difficulties in taking the towns around. The same is for Sicily, what is often neglecetd by the AI Romans and Poeni. So, as soon as the AI decides to get it, we should make sure it will succeed.


Konny? Lgk? Can this be done - can we trigger new Rebel FMember's in rebel region's after 20 year's or so??

Sure. You can trigger new FM everywhere and everytime you wish. The recent "Central European Defense Script" of the EB has shown us that it is also to possible to check if the old FM is alive and spawn the new one afterwards. I was thinking of a new "Unrest Script" that replaces the old random mini rebell armies with triggered real armies. But that would be tons of lines of scripting in a script that is allready very hughe; the same would be for the spawning rebell FM.

I think making some of them immortal would be cheaper and faster sollution.

[konny]

The features:


b Victory conditions can state a "survivor" which requires that a specific unique character survive in order for that faction to remain in the game; however, We are not sure if that can be used for anyone other than the initial 'Alexander' character. Needs more testing.

We can use that for short campaigns, if that feature works in Alexander (I am certain it does), for characters like Pyrrhos to survive. In any other campaign we can't because of the time span of EB.



c) Mercenaries can be designated as ''faction-specified'' in the campaign merc pool file. In ALX.exe, you can specify regional mercenaries to be recruitable only by certain factions.

That is very good and can be used for numerous changes.


d) ''Descr_Model_Battle.txt'' model's entries are increaseded from RTW/BI's 250 max (to at least 330+)

Any skinners, modelers? If you please.


e) AI can be instructed in the ''Descr_Start'' file not to attack certain factions (unless at war already). There is ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' in ''descr_strat'', which prohibits the AI to attack certain factions, except when they're at war!

That one is most interessting. We can for example forbid AS to attack Pontos, Armenia and Baktria and focus on Ptolemaioi. We can also forbid Makedonia and Epeiros to attack the slaves and so concentrate on the Greek theatre. We can then change their diplomatic stance to the slaves by script later when they have achieved their targets down there.


j) The next big thing is, of course, the unique general models. You can have battle and strat model and portraits that cannot be used by any other general in the game.

Unfortuantly we can only use this for the starting characters. There is no way to mod characters that might appear later in the game, like a Caesar or a Hannibal.



------------------------------------------

I think the ALX.exe allows for a couple of fine "provincial campaigns" on the EB map, starting at some different points in history and focusing on specific characters and factions.

[Lysandros]

I can start campaigns and everything seems to be working, nevertheless I get the following error report when I quit the game. Does somebody know what's wrong? It can't be the map.rwm, I have already deleted it.

https://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2596/image1ei6.th.jpg (https://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image1ei6.jpg)

EDIT: I think I've found it... it must have been a wrong entry in the descr_win_conditions.

[Perturabo]

The Ptolemaioi are always stronger than AS. The reason is that both start with a very weak army, but Egypt is faster in developing her (fewer) towns and bring forces to the front. AS might need decades, when controlled by the AI, to get a strong field army into Syria.

Nevertheless, any changes to AS must be carefully tested because everything you do to strengthen them against Ptolemaioi might, and will, be used by the AI to go against the fragile starting position of Pontos and Armenia.

Exactly, I really don't think the problem is so much money as advantagous procession through Ptolemai land by the Selucids and vica versa, due to MICs being shared. I will post any further observations along this line in the 'mod' section though, as requested above.

Edit: Its only in Alex that the Ptolies seem to have an advantage, in every (there may have been one exception) game of RTW/BI I have played with EB the Selucids walk over them, very quickly. Last game (and it was in Alex) the Selucids had driven the Ptolies back to Alexandria and then the Karthies decided to invade, getting as far as Thebes.. fortunately for the Ptolies I am a good ally and pushed both forces back into their homelands with 1 general.. it was a bit.... hectic

[Maksimus]

What are you using? (mod's, features?)

[Maksimus]

The features:
We can use that for short campaigns, if that feature works in Alexander (I am certain it does), for characters like Pyrrhos to survive. In any other campaign we can't because of the time span of EB.

That would be nice.. Still I know 0 people that use short campaign's :shrug:


Any skinners, modelers? If you please.

I can ''add'' any unit or 'skinn-it' but I don't make my own unit's in 3Dmax, what I was thinking is to ask EB team for hele in a way they upload their work that just can not fit in RTW engine, I had some dab signals at the start but who know's:shrug:


That one is most interessting. We can for example forbid AS to attack Pontos, Armenia and Baktria and focus on Ptolemaioi. We can also forbid Makedonia and Epeiros to attack the slaves and so concentrate on the Greek theatre. We can then change their diplomatic stance to the slaves by script later when they have achieved their targets down there.

Those are good solution's - scout a bit in Alex-vanilla descr_start.txt and we may see more of those...:san_wink:


Unfortuantly we can only use this for the starting characters. There is no way to mod characters that might appear later in the game, like a Caesar or a Hannibal.

But we may take it on Pyrros, Gonatas ....etc,

I think the ALX.exe allows for a couple of fine "provincial campaigns" on the EB map, starting at some different points in history and focusing on specific characters and factions.

[konny]

That would be nice.. Still I know 0 people that use short campaign's :shrug:

I would, given there are some that make sense. In fact I am usually playing "short campaigns", achieving the goals that are at hand, and than I am not in the mood to attack neutral factions just because they are there or to manage the Empire I have just conquered.



I can ''add'' any unit or 'skinn-it' but I don't make my own unit's in 3Dmax, what I was thinking is to ask EB team for hele in a way they upload their work that just can not fit in RTW engine, I had some dab signals at the start but who know's:shrug:

I can't help with this one either.


But we may take it on Pyrros, Gonatas ....etc,

Yes, some of the Hellenic characters are certainly worth to be "unique" at the start, Pyrrhos in particular.

[Maksimus]

Thanks Maksimus, I wasn't aware the new thread existed.
I like the way LGK et al are thinking.

In my opinion there is no problem with the way the game goes for a Human Player, but the AI really needs a major revamp to prevent insane expansion. Historically Alexander the Great/the Romans were highly unusual in the speed they expanded at, generally it was not unusual for two cities to fight each other for hundreds of years with no concrete outcome (refer Greek Cities in particular).

The EBBS alteration's might not be the best and only solution for this - one solution (that will be used) is to add ''hidden_resource'' to region's for ''barracks'' level's - so, that way, we dont break the EB share system, instead we 'limit' Aegypt or AS vice versa use of elites and retraining capability of elites (note: in most of the cases in Aegypt or AS expansinon's, the problem is in autocalculation's that CPU uses when fighting against CPU), In that case - the army with most of the elites win's:whip: So by making Royal/Army/City barrack's available in 50-40% of all reigon's instead of 100% -
we make better balance and more historic game :square:


I would also like to reiterate the idea of rebel city based generals being immortal, or replaced upon death. Otherwise the stack ups and wanders on death of said family member leaving the city open to easy conquest. This is particularly a problem in the east with the Indian cities being easy picking for AS or Baktria at that time.

That is going to be IN Alex-EB mod.. still, I support Konny's idea that 'some' region's that 'should' be taken by smaller faction's 'should-not' have immortal or spawned Fmember's :shrug:

And personally - I am really for More Spawn's in India and China province.. also, as I have researched - all of those 4 province's (3 in India and one in China) were very powerfull and BIG - in scales of city and army.. In EB they are made as strong as.. Thermon for example, but that was not so - Indian province's should be absolute and hardest to take! As much as one China province there...


I am also no great fan of having all factions being able to recruit all troops everywhere with time. Hats off to the EB team for doing a great and realistic job on where troop types are located in the world. Main problems imho, in no particular order:

That wont happend I am sure - the EB ''unit resource's'' are very well balanced - they are made for the perspective of next 1000 year's. Still, there is one big question of :

::WHY can't Getai use Makedonian factional Army barrack's in Pella right after conquest even if they can only recruit Thracian and Dacian Cavalry that can be considered to be drawn from the population that comes in Pella AFTER it is in Dacian hand's, also, Thracian cavalry that Macedon's are using can be considered to be more Dacian then Macedonian anyways:shrug: ::

1/Shoddy AI that backstabs Allies with no provocation or reason (coded to attack human players whenever possible or if said player has not been at war for a certain amount of time). I realise modders have little ability to control it however we can only dream :wall:

We CAN control that in ALex engine. There is ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' in ''descr_strat'', which prohibits the AI to attack certain factions, except when they're at war!

2/ AI ability to recruit Elite troops instantly upon conquest of new territories i.e. Ptoly/Selucia in particular, leading to unstoppable superpowers.

That will be solved either by changing the whole EB share system or adding ''hidden-resource'' for Royal-Army barrack's to just some region's in AS - Aegypt reach - that way, even if the Aegypt takes Antioh or AS takes Alexandreia - those town's will be one of the only that would even be able to train elites:san_wink:


3/ Crashes. I seem to get more crashes under Alex than RTW or BI, generally after a heroic battle. Needless to say that is frustrating after a 2 hour fight.

I know what you mean - still, there us NO WAY you get more CTD's on ALX.exe. Belive me, I two play generally heroic battle for 2 hour's and I got the CTD's on RTW.exe like 80% of the time - on ALX.exe just 20% :san_grin:

Hey! If you have a heroic screen - post it here !!https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94993


Those are the glaring weaknesses that I can see immediately, compared with the vanilla game shows just what a brilliant job the whole EB team have done. They certainly can be proud of this game :applause:

Please don't see any of this as being criticism.. if I didn't like the ideas or this game I wouldn't take the effort to post (I am at best a lazy git) :beam:

We would like to hear more from you and other gamer's + screen-shot's of AI expansion on Alex.exe with vanilla EB *txt is needed very much (so we can see what to alter:san_wink: )

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
:hijacked:
Maksimus, will you please increase your font size or switch your font face? :help:
:focus:
.

[Maksimus]

Sorry :san_grin:

It's just that I really like "Palatino Linotype'' font and various of colours...

I just can't help myself :no:

[Maksimus]

I have one (well two .) more solution that will add to gameplay

Originally posted by ''Barbarossa82'' in his ''Gold Mod Collection''. The term “extermination” sounds too cruel, and that was not the case in history

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90798

''EXTERMINATION AND PUBLIC ORDER
The problem: In pure vanilla, you have the option to "exterminate" a settlement you conquer, and the game tells you how many people will be killed. Because of squalor, culture penalty and distance to capital, extermination can quickly become the rule rather than the exception as your empire grows. This not only makes it hard to roleplay a faction with any degree of humanity, but is quite unhistorical. Organised mass slaughter of the majority of a settlement's population was historically rare. More likely was a situation where a commander would allow his troops to basically run riot, looting, raping, pillaging and generally brutalising the settlement. The difference here is that a lot of the locals would just flee or be turned out of their homes rather than being rounded up, executed and buried in a mass grave as RTW's text and graphics imply.
The solution: Text, the "exterminator" line of traits and graphics have been changed to make it a bit more ambiguous what exactly is happening in the settlement you decide to exterminate. Instead of the option to "exterminate populace", you are now given the option to "suppress populace". The text descriptions, graphics and sounds are now more consistent with the spontaneous depredations of a victorious army set loose by their commander, rather than the 20th-century-style industrialised genocide implied by the original text. Of course if you're a complete git who loves the idea that your troops go around wiping out entire populations, the new text is ambiguous enough to allow you to believe that.''

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7866/suppressionoptionkb4sz7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5608/suppressiondz7md8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Should we use this feature as on far more real and better solution for the game:shrug:

AND ONE MORE THING!

I have already posted the BALLISTA solution's here - like add to exp_descr_units.txt 2 times more soldier's and an Officer and SBear and 2 times more ballistas in the unit - then lower the ballista attack by 2 times - and you have unit that LOOK's like a unit and make's sence to COST like HELL!:san_angry:
Yes, so that it would look like this..

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;EB Siege;;;;;;;;;;;;;
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

;343
type generic siege 3span
dictionary generic_siege_3span ; Triaspanai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 48, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, numidia, macedon, saba, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, seleucid, slave, pontus, armenia, gauls, britons, scythia, germans, dacia, spain

;344
type generic siege 3cubit
dictionary generic_siege_3cubit ; Triakubitai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 32, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine catapulta
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, ballista, 280, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 9000, 2500, 30, 40, 9000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;345
type generic siege 30mina
dictionary generic_siege_30mina ; Triakontaiminai Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, boulder, 300, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;346
type generic siege 1talent
dictionary generic_siege_1talent ; Monotalanta Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 38, 2, big_boulder, 240, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;347
type roman artillery scorpio
dictionary roman_artillery_scorpio ; Vitruvian Scorpions
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 48, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 14, 2, scorpion, 380, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000
ownership seleucid, slave

;348
type roman artillery catapulta
dictionary roman_artillery_catapulta ; Vitruvian catapulta
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine catapulta
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, ballista, 303, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 9000, 2500, 30, 40, 9000
ownership seleucid, slave

;349
type roman artillery 30mina
dictionary roman_artillery_30mina ; Vitruvian 30 mina stone thrower
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 32, 2, boulder, 303, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership seleucid, slave

;350
type roman artillery 1talent
dictionary roman_artillery_1talent ; Vitruvian 1 talent stone thrower
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 42, 2, big_boulder, 270, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership seleucid, slave

This is one solution for better look's of siege equipment and for the worth of Money you spend on it, This is one suggestion that add's officer's, more man power and more siege pieces for ballista unit's.. Do, In vice versa method - you are lowering the attack value verses the more amoun't of siege pieces added in EDU. In ancient times, numbers of units very much greater in siege unit's and they had officer's - or you can consider them to be enginerires.. And it would solve prob I have when I have to give 4500 per turn just for couple of peasant's with two siege gun's:gah:

https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2843/34758992fz0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7307/91093320sy2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/797/77120654zx1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8231/64222943ao2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Now, this looks like one siege :D

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Can't you increase the size then?

text here

gives:

text here

As it is, I just skip your posts and I'm sure I'm missing a lot. ~:mecry:
.

[Maksimus]

.
Can't you increase the size then?

text here

gives:

text here

As it is, I just skip your posts and I'm sure I'm missing a lot. ~:mecry:
.

Ill compromise to size=2:san_angry: and I will re-size my post's in this thread :square:

ok?:san_grin:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I can't force you to do anything mate; just thought I could talk you into... Well, size 2 is the standard and just too small with Palatino Linotype. Even size 3 is barely adequate but 4 gets too big. :dizzy2:

I can't read what you post in size 2 Palatino Linotype. Not only because of visual impairment of any sort but...it's pathetic to try to focus and decipher that stuff. :shrug:
.

[Maksimus]

I just resized my every post to size 2, I can't do it again to 3, ok, for future post's I'll see to it ...

Still.. you can fold Ctrl+Mouse scroll down to see it :shrug:

3 is really to big..

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I have to agree with Mouzafphaerre, I have skipped many of your posts because don't want to struggle trying to read it.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
It's all your preference but I'd rather you use size 3 from now on, if you wish to stick to Palatino Linotype, so that we can read what you say. No need to edit old posts, they're past now...

Thanks. :bow:
.

[Maksimus]

~:mecry: This is because you don't read my post's..
But I will use coloured font's no matter what :chucks:

[Maksimus]

Anyway's, we need more screen shots of advanced Alex AI engine in battle and Campaign - so please post here or in the Alexander EB thread so I can use them and add them as an example on TWC and here - that way we encourage to use Alex.exe:curtain:

Thank you!

note: I had no time for long move's so I have no more screen's by now:no:


And Antonius, Mouzafphaerre, you made me change my font size - you better be using ALX.exe:san_wink:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
:laugh4: I'll try it once I'm done with my current campaign. :yes:
.

[Perturabo]

Unfortunately I tend to mess with other factions a lot during my games.. i.e. bribes and military intervention to keep factions in check when required, AS, Ptolies and Rome usually lose a few citeis to keep them under control.
Spreading plague is also quite an acceptable form of population control for enemies :laugh4:

As such the results do not really show any AI behaviour, more my view on how the world should be.

Might run a Casse campaign over Xmas and see what happens.

[Maksimus]

I have been testing with advance Alex features and I have screenshots
I used Casse for 'end-turn' test campaign on VH campaign and Medium battle difficulty on vanilla EB 10 script's (as well as the new EBBS) with NO changes to ANY *txt, file

The advance AI feature I used are 'tweaked' in descr_start.txt :: as :: ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' - that makes a clear order to one faction - not to attack following faction's unless they are already at war or If the other faction's attack's..
The feature was used for the following faction's as writen:
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### thrace - Epeiros #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction thrace, sailor napoleon
ai_do_not_attack_faction numidia, egypt (Aegypt, Carthage)
That really made Epeiros fight only for Greece and Italy, at one time they even besiege Rome, but were eventuly driven out of Italy by Romanoi.. Still, one of the reasons I made them not to attack Carthage is because their fleet would blok some Carthaginian fleet out of a blue with no reason. Anyway's, Epeiros should not have ''ai_do_not_attack'' limitation's in the future because when Aegypt reacheg Greece there is no war among Epeiros and E
Aegypt at all:square:
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### egypt - Karthadast #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction egypt, sailor caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction thrace, numidia, macedon, greek_cities (Epeiros, Makedonia, Greek's)

One faction that is after Aegypt the strongest - they are sieging Rome by now... I konw that player's will like it... I am sure that ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction's had influence on those map move's by Carthage..
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_julii - Arche Seleukideia #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction romans_julii, balanced stalin
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, parthia, saba, greek_cities (Armenia, Pontos, Baktria, Pahlava, Greek's, Saba)

For AS this command line is very important, It made AS NOT attack not one of these faction's right to their end, and it helped AI develop, well maybe greek_cities should not be there :shrug:
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### numidia - Ptolemaioi #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction numidia, religious caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, parthia, thrace, egypt, saba (Pontos, Baktria, Pahlava, Carthage, Saba, Epeiros)
In the case of Aegypt - they have destroyed Seleucid's and Pontos (after Pontos attacked them - that is the case with Armenia too)..
This faction is one that is really overpowerd in a epic sence, they are win in Palestine and MidEast right away and then just use the money to go further, After they have reached Babylon and Seleukeia - nothing could stop the 'Share System' - they just went on to retake all AS empire in a couple of turn's - City after City, that was the end ot the game.. In the mean while they cam into Thrace all the way to today's Ukraine- Aegypt is one faction that shoul be worked on.. ~:yin-yang:
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### macedon #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction macedon, fortified stalin
ai_do_not_attack_faction numidia, seleucid, egypt

The Macedon's are very weak in Greece and during the game, They are the most underpowerd faction in Greece, They loose Corintos right away because Gonatas Is fighting in Epeiros - yes, Gonatas gathers his Army - leaves to fight Pyrros - win's in Epeiros for years and then he must go back to defend Demetrias against KH, After that he can only loose in Athen's. After that he goes to fight in Thrace and in the mean while Makedonia looses Pelly to Pyrros:square:


The good news is that the command line in descr_start.txt work's perfectly! So the AI would never attack first if you order him not to! And yes, after one faction that was protected by the command attack's the other that is ordered not to attack - well, the war will go on.. There should never be aponited vice versa ai_command's - because the two factions will never Fight (In this case I made a mistake with Epeir and Aegypt - and I just did not see it:grin: )

IT IS 224BC don't let the 14AD date fool you (I had some loading prob's)
https://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2126/datefg4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

The Year is 224bc - The Aegypt have destroyed Seleucid's
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2007/mapba5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
And that was very fast after they took Babylon and Seleucia, they gained pace because untill that time AS had developed barrack's that Aegypt used well - this only tells that either the share system should be changed or one number of action's that would disable Aegypt to win in MidEast that fast...
Dacia 224bc
https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3650/daciaiy2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Gaul 224bc
Dacia did not move untill the Egypt got there to so they moved to the East because they might be destroyed where they are
https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2586/gaulqp3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Germania 224bc
https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5646/germaniaba0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5646/germaniaba0.334cfc8f7a.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=505&i=germaniaba0.jpg)
Germania is nice, they are spreading and not causing problems
Greece 224bc
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6179/greecejq1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6179/greecejq1.31980443c7.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=518&i=greecejq1.jpg)
Greece is the problem - the Makedonia is underpowerd big time.. they are in that position from the start, The most overpower faction in Greece are The Greek Cities - they are really in the best position all the time
Media 224bc
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9577/mediamo7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Thrace 224bc
https://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9536/thracemu6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Arabia 224bc
https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7669/arabialg3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Those are the pictures of Egypt and their might
Armenia 224bc
https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/308/armeniacl0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8929/armenia1rn8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8929/armenia1rn8.59b017e7b0.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=518&i=armenia1rn8.jpg)
When Armenia decided to attack Aegypt - but they have no chance
Nomad 224bc
https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8348/nomadfj6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Nomad's ARE UNDERPOWERED big time! They have no infrastructure to develop trada or economy, their army is as costly as anyone's and they have no potential to take anything unless that is among them.. So, they are the problem.. If AI gets there with couple of Infantry leavies - he win's with no problem's... They should be worked on
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3744/nomadbo5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Italy 224bc
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3716/romelh2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
CARTHAGE IS SIEGING ROME! - there are people that would like this :curtain:
Spain 224bc
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3204/spainkm7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
And is spreading in Spain - they will likely take Spain
Figures 224!!
https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/723/rankings1mg0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3060/rankings2xv9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3686/rankings3we5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5774/rankings4wp0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

These telll much.. so see it and comment - I got to run now!

Will post later!

[Cantu]

Hello, I am really interested in playing the best EB experience I can get (with the alex.exe), however I do not own the Alexander expansion. I've browsed some sites and might end up buying online, but I would rather buy a CD. Does anyone know where I can get it without much hassle ?(Either CD or online.) Thanks in advance

[Maksimus]

We could help you if you type where you live.. I guess in US? right?.. Well I live in SE Europe.. so I can't help you much... But I think that official SEGA site's are ok..:shrug:

[Maksimus]

I suggest series of measure's to 'take down' Aegypt expansion - like, weak the start position of the Aegypt army by adding more unit's to Seleucid's wich will make them force Aegypt to defend at the start and that should prolong the AS life.. In any case - AS are loosing over to the Aegypt in any case

Second, I really think that Makedonia is uderpowered - read the report up..
So they should never loose Corintos that fast and Pella should have Stone Wall because of the Pyrros elephant (wich is very usefull if you play Epeiros)

Also, the testing's are clear about the massive use of royal and army barrack's by the AI - that should be 'resource' limited to 30% of the region's so Aegypt wont gain mad pace after 240bc when all Seleucid's town's already have Army barrack's (due to the share system). If we make 'resource' limit's it will further make AS postition stronger and therefore more less likely to loose at the start :san_grin:

[Cantu]

Well I live in the Dominican Republic right now so buying it online is not really an option. However, I will visit Texas shortly so if any of you guys knows were to get it I'll appreciate if you can tell me.

[MiniMe]

After hours of testing I confirm that RomeTW-ALX.exe engine does improve game performance =)
Maximus, I thanx you for your efforts on RomeTW-ALX.exe promotion.

[Maksimus]

Well I live in the Dominican Republic right now so buying it online is not really an option. However, I will visit Texas shortly so if any of you guys knows were to get it I'll appreciate if you can tell me.

I am sure that any PC game shop has it in US :yes:

[Maksimus]

After hours of testing I confirm that RomeTW-ALX.exe engine does improve game performance =)
Maximus, I thanx you for your efforts on RomeTW-ALX.exe promotion.

I think that we should go 'beta' in two days - like, we add your script + Konny's WIN condition script and I will upload the desr_start*txt with ''ai_attack'' alteration's after some test's tonight.. + Add the night battle capability trait to no more then couple of general's (from the Stepe East and Germany... + maybe Armenian one)

I also want to add greater barrack's to the capitol cities of the faction's (mostly because it is realistic, second because you get celtic reforms before you even have the barrack's and because you are able to use spartan's only 55-100 years after Pyrros attacks Sparta that is defended with spartans)..

To make it simple! ai_do_not_attack faction's can not be the only solution to some massive problem's like Aegypt expansion, the fact that Makedonia almost instantly loose's Pella (that need's stone wall btw) and Corintos.. and never has them back.. The fact that Dacia and Baktria are not expanding at all... etc..

There are some descr_start.txt 'tweaks' like - more army to the Seleucid's in MEast so they don't loose there after 10 turn's, more Carthage Army in Sicily so they advance to Italy and disable Roman early expansion to Gaul whic will enable Roman's to TAKE Sicily before the Gaul..

Any suggestion's? Konny, Lgk, MiniMe?

Also we need to meke some nice pictures for the signature's.. I can make them in CS3.. just post suggestion's..:san_wink:

[MiniMe]

suggestions...
My main suggestion thus far is very general but very serious
We don't need to rush :no:
What we really need to do is to define.
The task consists of:
1. Creating a stable upgradeble installer/uninstaller;
2. Finding out what else besides AI_unit_retraining and performance improvement can be achieved with romeTW-ALX.exe;
3. Adding new features;
4. Upon common agreement applying some minor changes to EB classic
From what I've read in all alex treads, you and LGK are full of great ideas on point 4 and are willing to immediately implement them. But that is the last point of what's need to be done.
EB 1.0 thus far is the best TW mod. There are many issues to discuss, however I'm afraid that by tearing it's system of rules apart in couple of days won't help nobody.

Why don't for a start everyone of us, who's willing to do so, would state and formulate: what exactly this person want's from this project and what this person is ready to do?

Best regards
MiniMe

[Maksimus]

Ok, I will write my view - and you write your's in 'major' text if you please..

And post now if you can.. so we can sum it up!

Anyway, Lgk is not around but he is very smart RTW veteran, so we must hear him too...

konny also..

And to add, I someone does something really bad in the mod - we can compromise by allowing him to have 'optional' 'AlexEBMod' add-on.. for Example I would love to see advanced City Mod in the finall 'AlexEBMod' for EB 1.1, but I won't push it too far.. If majority (acording to the voting system does not agree, then fine) - + I wont even ask a vote if there are good argument's to give up of some ideas..:yes:

So we ALL NEED TO POST HERE WHAT WE WANT.. I will post in one hour!

[konny]

Second, I really think that Makedonia is uderpowered - read the report up..
So they should never loose Corintos that fast and Pella should have Stone Wall because of the Pyrros elephant (wich is very usefull if you play Epeiros)

I have made some successes with a simple change in the descr_strat.txt:

I had placed the Makedonian main army between Pyrrhos and Pella. What does it do?

When both are played by the AI the Maks will have their turn first; Antigonos drafts the garrison from Pella to his army and attacks the Epeirote army. That battle was in all, save for one, tests won by Makedonia. Now the Epeirote army retreats to the mountains and is not strong enough to make a new attack to soon (they will do, but until then the Makedonians have enough time to reinforce their position in Pella).

The AI also withdraws the army next to Korinth and place it in Demtrias. That is quite a clever move because as long as it can not take Athens in short it will not be able to reinforce the troops on the Peleponnes; any forces down there are doomed as soon as Greece starts moving.

So, Makedonia loses Korinth but ends up with a much stronger position in Demetrias and Pella.

Here is an example of MiniMe's campaing around 200BC played with this alteration:

https://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6918/201bcre9.png


In my games too Makedonia is in most of the cases able to hold her position in Pella this way, especially when they start to retrain the forces.

[Maksimus]

The makedon issue is fixed by that from the AI point, still If I use Pyrros - I will take Pella anyway in the first turn.. so Wall in Pella is important here..

:thinking2: Let us not move the characters that are in one place according to the history book (like Gonatas away from Athenati) .. other's that we don't know where they were at that time - we can move anyway - that is also the same for the armyies? You placed Maks army in front of Pella without the character's?..

I made the decr_start.txt alteration's but should I test with your script???
Is it compatible with new 1 fix release that bovi added yesterday?

Also, I will post the screen's here..

Konny - have in mind that only by using ai_attack option we are solving most of the problems with AI expansion already..:shrug: So, the scrpt that you are modding should have that in mind.. anyway's I will upload the descr_strat.txt file that contain's ai_attack tweak's and you can test it too

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The fact that Pyrrhos could take Makedonia extremely easily is a historical fact of 272BC. I believe at the start date the town of Pella should actually be in Pyrrhos' hands. Only Pyrrhos' idea of attacking Sparte kept him from easily displacing the Antigonids in Makedonia.

[Maksimus]

Well - yes, I was just looking at some historic maps and I could see that Pyrros had Pella in 272bc.. :square:

Why did you not make it in Pyrros hands then? :shrug:


This way.. we.. :gah:

Ok Marcus, did Pella really had stone_wall or not?

Anyway's.. You made the City Mod so EB could be more ''real'' - I agree with that.. I think CityMod should be developed more. The way official EB is made - EVERY single town is usually alway's HUGE at about 200bc... That is really one major minus and a setback of EB realism (by my opinion)..that also goes for high-end building's ... but I typed about for that many many times..

I think that there is one nice number of eb team member's that wanted to make 'everything' as it 'was'.. But that would mean that almost every Hellenic town has a sewer? Right? Or that Pergamun should have one of the largest theater's at the start and a stone Wall - and not to say that Antioh should have Royal barrack's.. or Army at the least (and that goes for Alexandria and Seleukeia too..)

I understand that game should be 'played' - it is only a game..:curtain:

But thank you for that comment...

IF !!! you can spear some time with a ''guide'' what 'was' the worlde REALLY like in 272bc (in terms of city buildings in every town) - AlexEBTeam will use it for the minimod..:san_grin:

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I believe Makedonia was given to 'Makedonia' (the faction) because the Antigonids still controlled much of the territory including all of the port cities. I think Antigonos still held the title of 'King of Makedon' too. And for gameplay reasons, if 'Makedonia' didn't have Makedonia they would have absolutely no chance at success as an AI faction. Though, I wasn't around when EB was originally made. I do agree, though, that Makedonia is underpowered as an AI faction.

I don't know the exact levels every city should be at, but the game engine restricts things from being close to where they should be. :wall:
Good new is that in M2TW you can control population growth a whole lot better. That combined with the fact that M2TW recruitment doesn't deplete populations will result in much more accurate starting possitions and town growth in EB2.

[Maksimus]

But can you say that even do that you and I don't really know all the level's (I searched at some ancient city plan's) - but I can say and can you say the same - that, Level's of capitol's and big cities in EB should be and remain biger than 'other' town's - the CityMod solves that so I think you can say it..

But can you say that Big Cities should be bigger in every aspect and small should remain small at the start for example?

I don't see any other solution to the extensive pace problem AI uses building settlements - either you can ''resource'' block that or you can ''counstruction time'' block tha pace.. so you don't end with ''every-city is NewYork scope''

What do you think??:shrug:

[konny]

The makedon issue is fixed by that from the AI point, still If I use Pyrros - I will take Pella anyway in the first turn.. so Wall in Pella is important here..

When I play Epeiros I take Pella on turn #1, rush for Demetrias and finish the rest of the Maks off. I leave Korinth and Chalkis for the Greeks, who will certainly attack me sooner or later, what makes me master of Greece.

When I play Makedonia I defeat and kill Pyrrhos on turn #1, might or might not lose Korinth (depends on the speed of the Greeks). I head south defeat all Greek field armies, take Athens, then Sparta. Afterwards I go for Epeiros.

When I play KH I wait for the Maks to withdraw their army then take Korinth in 2 turns while sending a detachement to Chalkis to prevent from mass recruiting of Makedonian Hoplitai Haploi there. After the conquest of Korinth I move all forces East to take Chalkis; and before the AI is realising what's going on I am sieging Demetrias with all my men.


So what, the human player is always better and faster than the AI because he has an overall plan in mind while the AI is simply acting from turn to turn. Stonewalls here and there don't make a difference. If you don't want to take Pella in turn #1 disband the elephants.


Let us not move the characters that are in one place according to the history book (like Gonatas away from Athenati) .. other's that we don't know where they were at that time - we can move anyway - that is also the same for the armyies? You placed Maks army in front of Pella without the character's?..

No, the character was moved with the army. And I only moved the main army, not the army next to Korinth.

I would strictly stick to the historical deployment of armies as soon as we are able to teach the AI for what reasons its armies are placed on such strange places. For example, I haven't seen the Greek FM on Crete recruiting some mercenaries and then return to the mainland. In most of the times that army just stands there for decades and the AI has no idea what to do with it. Therefore I had moved it to Greece in decr_strat.

I had tested a deployment in which Pyrrhos was on the position where Argos is. That was a desaster: Pyrrhos always moved by land back to Epeiros, causing a war with KH when nearing Thermon. Antigonos' army became pinned and stood next to Athens for years. And KH didn't do anything at all.

Any changes I make to descr_strat are to help the AI, in particular when it is not doing anything at all, or not what it should do, with the default settings. Or always fails in a task in which it should win without serious problems. Sometimes I might accidently end up with a more historical situation: for example I have made Taras rebell, so that the AI Romans can (and do!) take it in the first turns. That is correct because Taras was not part of the Epeirote kingdom but her ally, whom Pyrrhos had allready abondoned in 272.



I made the decr_start.txt alteration's but should I test with your script??? Is it compatible with new 1 fix release that bovi added yesterday?

The new script isn't made so far. It will be linked to the VCs and give money for not controlling (or losing) VC-towns. That are a lot of code command to be made (about 10 for every faction). May be after Christmas.


Konny - have in mind that only by using ai_attack option we are solving most of the problems with AI expansion already..:shrug: So, the scrpt that you are modding should have that in mind..

The victory conditions, changed descr_strat and changed money script are not only to be played with the ALX.exe. The not_attack command makes several things a lot easyer, for example keeping the Seleucids away from their lesser Kingdoms, and Epeiros and Makedonia out of the Balkans as long as they are at war with each other. All other AI factions, unfortuantly, have to be "guided" to where their homelands are.

[Maksimus]

I have a solution for some ot those issues
https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/672/firstturngs3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4853/firstturndaciayh0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5952/53371821rl8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3177/77623373fw4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3220/91803362qu0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6118/91146891cq7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8579/73548573yo6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

The tweaked *txt files are descr_start.txt (added just couple of wall's and a bit more army to one army of Pontos, Dacia, Carthage at Sicily, AS in Antioch, ... you will see, and ai_attack options but not to all faction's.. you can see it) and C_script.txt (that added the army/royal barrack's to capitol's exept some faction's you can see it - it really boosted the Ai expansion's)

I will linky you in PM so you can test and say what yo uthink (like - test only with casse and you will see the boost)

[Maksimus]

Ok, I will go honestly 100% with you my friend's (Konny, MiniMe and Lgk by now) - I am adding this as I said to MiniMe -
What do I expect for 'AlexEBMod'?

I want it to be as 'real' as posible! Pure and simple!

By that I mean (I would like anyway's) that 'AlexEBMod' tweak's all aspect of the game to make it more interesting, historical, challenging, pretty and playable... We need to invest effort's and trust among members:yes:

I personaly belive that some of 'my' ideas should be in no matter what... but I wont push it if you guy's are not for it..:stwshame:

You manly now my ideas that are used in one great number of RTW mod's~:yin-yang:
One of them is 'AdvancedCityMod' that would enable for capitol's and in total town's it would allow that about 20% to be huge, 30% large, 40% city and the rest.. That would also comply to barrack's and some high-end building's also large wall's.. etc.. I have that idea already developed and ready to implement in term's of hour's.. I would really want that to be a part of the mod.. .. I would also tweak some bonuses for building's that have none... etc also..

I think we should share the work.. and don't interfere much in what the other one is making.. what to you think :shrug:



And I would like that we all have nice litle pictures in our signaturea like EB team :curtain:

[Maksimus]

One more thing... And this is not really for a debate - this should be in no matter what - please!

Look, you know when Lgk said about the 1,2 Hit point's for Horse Archers because they are really underpowered in autocalsulation's ??? And that that' is keeping them alweys in the stepe's no matter what?
And EB 1.1 will have that tweak too so HA could have some real power in autocalc. as they have in real battle!..
Can you think of any 'other' unit that is underpowered in autocalculation's if the AI is playing??? Think?? Any??..

No???

Well I will tell you one! It is the reason KHellenon alway's takes Greece - BECAUSE - phalanx in underpowered against hoplites in autocalc - you can see it for your self.. Makedon looses every time no matter what! I just got a spy in greece and found that KH classic and regular hoplites are killing Makedonian elite phalanx easy as hell! And we all know that human player beats hoplites with phalanx much more easily than phalanx with hoplites!?:shrug:

Just think for one moment.. How come that HArcehers need's the HP up to 1.2(btw that only helps in autocalc..) and no other unit does?? Because no body implemented it yet! No body ever implemented the 1.2 hp for HA only to keep it real.. So in Greece and in Italy - phalanx always looses to fast against more mobile but really weaker infantry (at least if you use it)..

I don't know about the Celtic or germanic wrld of EB - but I am 100% sure some unit's need some tweak's for the sake of AI expansion's:boxing:

[Maksimus]

Well, I am right :(

https://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2657/78277117ur0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[konny]

One of them is 'AdvancedCityMod' that would enable for capitol's and in total town's it would allow that about 20% to be huge, 30% large, 40% city and the rest.. That would also comply to barrack's and some high-end building's also large wall's.. etc.. I have that idea already developed and ready to implement in term's of hour's.. I would really want that to be a part of the mod.. .. I would also tweak some bonuses for building's that have none... etc also..

I have absolutly no idea what this has to do with the ALX.exe. The towns will grow and grow and grow regardless what engine you play. I do not like the idea of limiting all save for some random towns in growth. And it is random because the towns that get the ability only get it because of their historical size according to their importance later in our time frame.

That makes no sense in EB in which we don't have a faction that will by guarantee win. In RTW we had 4 Roman factions and it is evident that usually they will controll the map after some time what makes it logical that Rome (the city) should be able to become larger than other towns.

In EB Rome might as well become an Epeirote provincial town ruled by the vice-king in Taras in 265 BC. Why should it have the opportunity to become larger than Capua in this case? It would be of no importance for the people outside Latium.


Well I will tell you one! It is the reason KHellenon alway's takes Greece - BECAUSE - phalanx in underpowered against hoplites in autocalc - you can see it for your self.. Makedon looses every time no matter what

Makedonia also raises large numbers of Hoplites in Demetrias and even larger numbers of Haploi in Chalkis, Mytilene and Pella. So, that cannot be the reason for the Maks tendency to lose the war. It is first of all the fact that they start at war with KH, Epeiros and Getai, and, as if it would not be enough, they tend to spend their armies on stupid assaults on Serdike, Tylis, Byzantion and Thermon.

Look at your picture: Makedonia has an army that would be strong enough to finish the Greeks off, but they use it to attack Thermon what has the strongest garrison in the entire region. Even if they succed (and it looks like they did this time) their army is so much reduced that they won't be able even to defend their territories for several years.

Forbid them to attack the rebells as long as KH controlls Sparta and Athens and Epeiros controlls Appollonia and Epidamnos. Give them these towns as targets and you'll see that they are well able to defend themselves.

[Maksimus]

I have absolutly no idea what this has to do with the ALX.exe. The towns will grow and grow and grow regardless what engine you play. I do not like the idea of limiting all save for some random towns in growth. And it is random because the towns that get the ability only get it because of their historical size according to their importance later in our time frame.

Well, no, that is not what I had in mind :no:. What you say is true if you look at the MAA CityMod - I used the the term 'AdvancedCityMod' because I wanted to introduce the 'catch' - the idea..

If you read my post's (and I am sure you do) carefuly, you can see that I did not mean to 'use' MAA CityMod but to make 'new' one - That would have Huge/Large ability for all Capitol's in descr_start.txt (that means in every faction's capital - and that is not in MAA that uses explicit historical notes) and surely much more in general, also, at the time we play the game - all is ''already set'' to be!

And this is not about the engine - it's about the gameplay:shrug:


That makes no sense in EB in which we don't have a faction that will by guarantee win. In RTW we had 4 Roman factions and it is evident that usually they will controll the map after some time what makes it logical that Rome (the city) should be able to become larger than other towns.

If we look from the ''Casse'' testing sreen's - yes, yes I think we can know what faction will win:shrug:..and even if you play as one and ''reverse'' the spin of 'sure winers' - you will not be able to address with your armies all around the map - but more likely in a couple of region's


In EB Rome might as well become an Epeirote provincial town ruled by the vice-king in Taras in 265 BC. Why should it have the opportunity to become larger than Capua in this case? It would be of no importance for the people outside Latium.

Most BIG towns and settlement's were BIG are BIG and will be BIG for centuries to come! Why? The answer is - not because of their 'historical size according to their importance in diferent times' - it's because of the Geostrategical and Geopolitical importance of the regions during the history (thus defined by Geographycal and Geoeconomical importance) ..

That is pure science I study for year's - it's just that my focus is on modern times... anyway's

Imagine why was Corintos (or Alexandria or Constantinopol or Antioch or any 'sea city') so important between 500bc and the tehnological revolution in late 19 century? because of the 'trade route' it controled (before the mass railways that came after 1850) - Corintos was one BIG city for every faction in every century (even when Turk's came) just because of it's economical importance - but since that importance is connected to the geoposition of Corintos on the map, economic science call's it Geoeconomical importance..

Off-course the importance of those town's was shaken by Industrial Revolution and Tehnological revolution - To make it simple.. just look at one historic Atlas and see the ''no matter'' who is where! The cities I want to meke 'resource Huge/Large' are cities that were big for many many centuries ... Just look at it - Roman's did not cahnge Antioch use and neither did the Crusaider's ..

The same goes for Alexandria and Carthage (that control's passage of Mediterranean.. and Thessloniki because it supplies the 'iner Balkans' from the sea.. even today.. Then - not to say all settlement's that control 'silk route'..
I mean there are very good reasons why most of the town's that are HUGE TODAY - WERE HUGE 2000 years age :shrug: Other's in Western Europe became Huge because of those Revolution and IMPERIALISM - now, here are the argument's to make capitol's Huge - If you have an Impery - you supply your center no matter what


And to note -- After Alexander's death, only Constantine the Great managed to build one Megapolis that could be defined as Huge - that is historic note for Europe, so, there is no sence to belive that ANY faction of EB time could and can ''Change'' importance of cities as they wish - that did not happen, and also, the city was taken mostly because of its Geo-importance..

Hope you understand - Those thing's are part of what I studied it's just that English is not my native so sorry if I did not made myself clear :san_grin:


Makedonia also raises large numbers of Hoplites in Demetrias and even larger numbers of Haploi in Chalkis, Mytilene and Pella. So, that cannot be the reason for the Maks tendency to lose the war. It is first of all the fact that they start at war with KH, Epeiros and Getai, and, as if it would not be enough, they tend to spend their armies on stupid assaults on Serdike, Tylis, Byzantion and Thermon.

No, In this cases they fought only Epeir and KH and loosed most of their battles against KH -do KH had Royl Barracks in Sparta - he did not used Spartan's at all :no: - I only saw 2 unit's with my spy total!
Anyways 20%-40% of Makedonian infantry are always phalanx - phalanx that KH does not have so ... no, their ability to raise hoplies is not importan here - because 20-40% of Makedon army are phalanx


Look at your picture: Makedonia has an army that would be strong enough to finish the Greeks off, but they use it to attack Thermon what has the strongest garrison in the entire region. Even if they succed (and it looks like they did this time) their army is so much reduced that they won't be able even to defend their territories for several years.

Forbid them to attack the rebells as long as KH controlls Sparta and Athens and Epeiros controlls Appollonia and Epidamnos. Give them these towns as targets and you'll see that they are well able to defend themselves.

For that script work - I will leave to you .. because it would have no sence for all of use working on the same *txt.

And, no matter what we make in the script - the phalanx is sill much much underpowered agains no-phalanx infantry in autocalculation's - That goes for HArcher's too and even for general's ..:shrug:

belive me.. the script is not the only solution.. :no:

[konny]

Well, no, that is not what I had in mind :no:. What you say is true if you look at the MAA CityMod - I used the the term 'AdvancedCityMod' because I wanted to introduce the 'catch' - the idea..

That's what I mean: It has nothing to do with the ALX.exe and therefore should not be part of ALX-mod.


Most BIG towns and settlement's were BIG are BIG and will be BIG for centuries to come! Why? The answer is - not because of their 'historical size according to their importance in diferent times' - it's because of the Geostrategical and Geopolitical importance of the regions during the history (thus defined by Geographycal and Geoeconomical importance) ..

Really? Before it became the German capital in 1871 Berlin was a mere lesser town if not an oversized village. Nowadays it has three times more inhabitans than Cologne or Hamburg, what were the largest and most important German cities in 1871. There are no traditional trade routes going through Berlin, the region has no important ressources and it has neither access to the sea or a major river.

Byzantion was quite an important town in 270 BC, but that was nothing compared to the Mediaval Byzantion. Because the Bosperos did not move in those 1000 years, it is clear that its new political meaning brought the growth.

And I simply doubt that Rome would have crossed the 1,000,000 line in Ancient times if it was not for the Roman Empire; or Carthago if she had not decided to support military other Phoenician colonies and by this became hegemon of the Western Poeni.


Other's in Western Europe became Huge because of those Revolution and IMPERIALISM - now, here are the argument's to make capitol's Huge - If you have an Impery - you supply your center no matter what

Exactly what I say: If there is no Empire, no one would be able to support the city and make it more hughe than neighbouring cities with the same regional meaning. Just count the former hughe cities in the Levante of the past 5,000 years that are now covered with dust.


And to note -- After Alexander's death, only Constantine the Great managed to build one Megapolis that could be defined as Huge - that is historic note for Europe, so, there is no sence to belive that ANY faction of EB time could and can ''Change'' importance of cities as they wish

That does somehow not really match with useing Antiochia as an example of a hughe city "by all rights"?

[Maksimus]

That's what I mean: It has nothing to do with the ALX.exe and therefore should not be part of ALX-mod.

Konny, see

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
We announce first update to Alex.exe engine fact's specified for modding on Alexander - Total War for EB, with unique Features List:

a) Alexander draws off of RTW and not BI (you do not even need BI installed), though you do need to make sure RTW is patched to 1.5 before installing Alexander. So BI features (swimming, shieldwall, schiltrom, loyalty, religion, etc.) are not inherent within it.
b) Victory conditions can state a "survivor" which requires that a specific unique character survive in order for that faction to remain in the game; however, We are not sure if that can be used for anyone other than the initial 'Alexander' character. Needs more testing.
c) Mercenaries can be designated as ''faction-specified'' in the campaign merc pool file. In ALX.exe, you can specify regional mercenaries to be recruitable only by certain factions.

d) ''Descr_Model_Battle.txt'' model's entries are increaseded from RTW/BI's 250 max (to at least 330+)
e) AI can be instructed in the ''Descr_Start'' file not to attack certain factions (unless at war already). There is ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' in ''descr_strat'', which prohibits the AI to attack certain factions, except when they're at war!
f) Immortality trait can ensure that named characters do not die of natural causes!
g) However, ALX.exe cannot use the features of BI such as hording, shield wall, schilstrom and swimming.
j) The next big thing is, of course, the unique general models. You can have battle and strat model and portraits that cannot be used by any other general in the game.

We can use specific campaign models, battle models and portraits for all the initial characters.
This is the example of entry in ''descr_strat'':

character Denethor, named character, leader, age 50, , x 149, y 80, portrait denethor, strat_model denethor, battle_model denethor

The biggest difference between ALX.exe and vanilla or BI.exe are the hard coded limit's on DMB. There are confirmation's that some mod's based on ALX.exe have more that 330. - BI and vanilla are limited to 250 entries.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

These are the only thing's and features that have to do with Alex.exe
If we look at it that way - we might just add the ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option's for some faction's, add 'NightBattleCapable 1'' trait's to some generals in ''descr_start.txt'' + some new DMB model's that likely no one will make - and period?! That is all that has to do with Alex.mod - Everything else is EB team supported :gah:

Even the EBBS that you are modding and that we will all vote to get in is not directly connected to Alex.exe:no:
But see it this way - I trust you so I don't have to go inside your hand made EBBS so I could comment - but maybe Lgk would? Or MiniMe? We don't know that :shrug:


Really? Before it became the German capital in 1871 Berlin was a mere lesser town if not an oversized village. Nowadays it has three times more inhabitans than Cologne or Hamburg, what were the largest and most important German cities in 1871. There are no traditional trade routes going through Berlin, the region has no important ressources and it has neither access to the sea or a major river.

I will tell you why Berlin (and Mostly whole North and Central Europe) does not fit in our EB game - because Berlin is located in eastern Germany near Poland in an area that was shaped by ice sheet during the last Ice Age! See now? Last ice age is why part's of Europe that were under it do not comply in EB vision of Hellenic/Eastern trade world that passed Ice age much Before -

You can count Berlin to be 'Geostrategicaly' important from the time some state wanted to Expand! - That is Prussia - and Berlin was capitol of Prussia form 1700 and before importan for Teutonic's (so that is a part of my idea for ACM - faction's capital's should always have the ability to grow). So If you look at Berlin - he is the centar of German people and ALL invader's from 1700-2007 (even Napoleon and Stalin tough the same)

And just about Hamburg here - Charles the Great founded Hamburg in about 800 AD as a defence against Slavic invasion's .. It was so important that Barbarossa granted Hamburg as Free City and tax free - he had trade routes in North Sea and Baltic - he was a major port in Northern Europe. He made League of Hansa and was in Hand's of Denmark, Napoleon, and Russian's and He was most importan!

And during the time ''After Revolutin's in Europe' during the second half of the 19 century - Hamburg was 3 port in Europe by Atlantic Trade. One of the world' largest transatlantic shipping companies were in Hamburg

All this made the great ''HAMBURG IDEA'' - Geopilitical tool of Germanic elite's that was suppressed by other Imperial power's (mostly England and France)

After WW I Germany lost her colonies and Hamburg lost many of its trade routes. During WW II Bombing of Hamburg was catastrophic and Iron Curtain separated the city from most of its interland and reduceds Hamburg's trade share.

After 1990 and when Baltic States joned EU in 2004, Hamburg has ambition as major commercial and trading centre. I belive that he will beat Rotherdam in about 10-15 years :shrug: the Same will go for Saint Petersburg but after 30 year's..

You can see that Hamburg is not capital only because he suffered so much in the last 60 year's but betwean 1000-1900 he was Huge! - and he will be huge again (you can consider it to grow in EB after you 'exterminate' the settlement that should the recover - those year's until you have it in ''full'' economic use - are those 90-80 year's for example)

And after the Tehnological Revolution railways can connect everything very nice to any land capital and vice versa..
It's just that Rome is not important as it was but that is because some very advanced states colapsed under the 'exoduses' of their times - the fall of WRoman Empire is compared to WWars .. so thign's can't be the same any more.. But Rome lasted for about 1000 year's as Huge.. But Alexandria last's over 2000 years!

Still Hamburg will be economic center once more you will see - his Geoeconomic postion is irreplaceable

I can tell you something more about my Belgrade? in short -
Just look at the map's - there was life in belgrade 8000bc - .. Singidunum of Roman times was the center of the region - until Now - that is from 150bc-2007 - over 200 years! Do you know that Belgarde has about 2 000 000 people? - It's because people from All ower the Balkan's caome to live 'in the center' even from Croatia, Bosnia and Albania..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics


Byzantion was quite an important town in 270 BC, but that was nothing compared to the Mediaval Byzantion. Because the Bosperos did not move in those 1000 years, it is clear that its new political meaning brought the growth.

It was called Constantinopolis form the foundation until 1453 ! Even the Crusaiders that took the town in 1204 called it Constantinopolis for 60 years until it fell in Romanoi hand's again - and it is called Istanbul - it's called only Byzantium in The West!

Secondly - East Roman Empire was even more powerfull in mediaval times because it had Constantinopl that was cultural center of Christianity until Renaissance and his fall in 1453 - First Carolingian Renaissance accured only because Charles wanted help from Bosforus and Roman's and Greek's so he got his Palatine Chapel in Aachen that was build as a mark of his Renaissance by Greek's ..
And Second Renaissance acured mostly becasue Consantinople fall and becasue the Turk's sold all the book's from the Bosforus - to Venice and Italian cities - then came the Assimilation of Greek and Arabic knowledge - And The Renaissance - even Columbos found America after he was inspired by an ancient greek script for Constantinopl:shrug: it began in Italy, and then spreaded to the rest of Europe by the end of 16th century..




And I simply doubt that Rome would have crossed the 1,000,000 line in Ancient times if it was not for the Roman Empire; or Carthago if she had not decided to support military other Phoenician colonies and by this became hegemon of the Western Poeni.

The Rome lasted that long and had about 2 500 000 people living in it when Empire was at it's top - But then came invasion's from the East.. so.. that is compared to some 'VERY major' event's - but not the EB campaign, And YES - if in 272bc Rome was taken by other state - he would heve been BIG and HUGE - unless you kill all people that lived there in that time! You know that Greece and AsiaMinor sufferd much untill 272 - becasue of constant wars, but not Latinum (until Punic) - he had population and option's to conquer the World.. You see that Carthage is a nice example of how one BIG city stay's BIG onder Roman's - SEE? Roman's just used akready BIG cities that stayed BIG until the break of the Empire - all the way to 1453 :san_grin:

The point is - modern times can not be compared as such to ancient - becasue in anceint times - Cities that did not have some MAJOR water (read - trade) connection - never were Large :no: But that does not stand for CAPITOL's (or cities that managed silk trade) - because if you have an Empire you can drain it to build cities that you want..:ballchain:

But today you can manage infrastructure and make anything the way you like - Just look how much WestGermany invested in the EastGermany form the 1990 - it was over 50 bilion's Euro's a year and it broke the European Monetary System that lasted from 1979 - only after that EU was created to 'make order' in monetary EU .. so after 1999 - we have Euro. Similar thing happened to Roman Empire after Constantine..


Exactly what I say: If there is no Empire, no one would be able to support the city and make it more hughe than neighbouring cities with the same regional meaning. Just count the former hughe cities in the Levante of the past 5,000 years that are now covered with dust.

That does somehow not really match with useing Antiochia as an example of a hughe city "by all rights''

Empires are MADE of Huge cities,
Huge City lives by it self - Greek City states are good example - even Hamburg or .. Pergamum that managet to make a successor kingdom.. That goes for Antiohia - There would not be one Seleucid Empire without the ''Greek support'' that can trough Antiohia - think about that - it is not as simple as one may see .. Seleucd's mostly supported the Hellenic settler's and most of them Would never come to Seleucid Empire from Greece if There is no sea connection.. even more - it would be more likely that Selucid would have Eastern people as their king's it There were no Greek ones in Antiohia..


..

..

Anyway's,

I understand what you are saying, I respect that! But the fact that makes me wanna killl my CPU is when I see that even that some little settlement on the map with no sea or big river connection or major trede route or any importance IS HUGE - the engine can not manage all factor's - and I will add

All my comment's on Advance City Mod are here because there is NO point IN HISTORY when ALL settement's in one region - for example ASIA MINOR - were Huge (in relative respect - huge as the game makes it - the game can not make Huge as for 500 000 inhabitant's becasue of the engine) -

Those comment's ARE very omportan in every decent RTW game Review!

Even EB team saw that and supported it! MMA updates it regulary:gah:

Now, If you don't accept my comment's and argument's, maybe it will be importan to know that I am not some Wiki and BBC amateur:no:

I have only my French I and II exams and I am officially ''Master of Geoeconimc's of Euroasia and EU'' - maybe you tihnk that becasue I am from Serbia I don't know much - I agree, Serbia is poor but Belgrade is BIG - in 10 year's he will be soule only Center in SE Europe - and belive me only the best pass in Belgrade (I have been told that after ambassador's lectures when I shaked hand's with ambassador's of Belgium, Russia, Spain, Brazil, Iran and China..)


So, either we can make 'my' (our) Advanced City Mod in the universal 'AlexEBMod' (that will go for RTW, BI and RTW.exe base EB games)
with one universal agreement or we can vote!

note: or we can use 'some parts of ACM'

- according to voting right's as folowing:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
''If we can not agree - member's take decision's as following:

Any member can make a suggestion of what should be done!
Any member can demand other member's to vote for it
Any member and supporter can take a part in the vote

Voting Majority need's 50+1% of votes for some suggestion to be in the ''AlexEBMod''
It work's like this
1: All member's have an eaqul strength of the vote! They make 70% of the vote power: like 70% / 3 member's (Maks, Konny and Lgk) = 23,33% each
2: Supporters have 30% of the vote power (like 30% / 0 supporter's = 0%)
3: The veto right are reserved for the council member's!
So if one council member ''veto's'' the decision the only way that decision could be passed is if two member's of the council form a majority that would represent 50+1% of total vote's - that is 2/3 of Council majority + % of vote's that makes 50+1% total!

4: There should be at least one council member at the forum so that one decision could pass.. Decision's are taking place at the Org.

Anyway's, THE MAIN POINT IS TO ADD MORE COUNCIL MEMBER'S so we can all be in the 'AlexEBMod' council
- but we must know if you are going to comply with the ''membership''..''
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

You can see that I cant make this through if I don't have your support or one from Lgk or MiniMe.. But : you, I, and Lgk can veto any decision and so will MiniMe:square: if all 3 of us (council) members agree that he can be in (if we want to add new council member - there is no majority for Council - we all need to agree - and + no one can be expeld from the Alex team without all thre member's of Council say yes)..

So, by that, We are yet to decide what will be IN the 'AlexEBMod' we make thing's now and before the release of download linke - WE VOTE ! !

[konny]

These are the only thing's and features that have to do with Alex.exe
If we look at it that way - we might just add the ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option's for some faction's, add 'NightBattleCapable 1'' trait's to some generals in ''descr_start.txt'' + some new DMB model's that likely no one will make - and period?!

Yes, that's it. And not 30% of it is down so far.


Even the EBBS that you are modding and that we will all vote to get in is not directly connected to Alex.exe:no:

Excatly. The VC modding and money scripts have their own threats. Changes to the script that do reset the "not_attack"-feature after some time are ALX, but should not require to download a new money script or a city mod (that's another project in an other threat)


I will tell you why Berlin (and Mostly whole North and Central Europe) does not fit in our EB game - because Berlin is located in eastern Germany near Poland in an area that was shaped by ice sheet during the last Ice Age! See now? Last ice age is why part's of Europe that were under it do not comply in EB vision of Hellenic/Eastern trade world that passed Ice age much Before

I C E A G E??!!??

What has the Ice Age to do with the EB time frame? None of the cities, cultures or even people that we are talking about lived in the Ice Age or even close to it.


So If you look at Berlin - he is the centar of German people and ALL invader's from 1700-2007 (even Napoleon and Stalin tough the same)

Absolutly not. Save for Prussia, who wasn't that important before 1815 and did not become something of an empire before 1866, Berlin was of no importance, neither politcal nor economical.


Still Hamburg will be economic center once more you will see - his Geoeconomic postion is irreplaceable

Hamburg always was and still is amongst the most important sea trading towns in Europe. The thing is that Berlin managed to become three times bigger within just some years without any economic or geographic meaning.


- First Carolingian Renaissance accured only because Charles wanted help from Bosforus and Roman's and Greek's so he got his Palatine Chapel in Aachen that was build as a mark of his Renaissance by Greek's ..

It was build by Odo von Metz (Frank not Greek).

[Maksimus]

Yes, that's it. And not 30% of it is down so far..

As far as I am concern

"Survivor" can only be used (and maybe) for Pyrros.. so the action here is not in high peak - not important

''Mercenaries can be designated as ''faction-specified'' '' in the campaign is not needed but could be done - not that important:shrug:

''More DMB'' - none will be in if EB team does not give us the material to add it.. There are NO modeler's that want to work on this..

''Descr_Start'' file and ''ai_don_not_attack'' certain faction is done - I have uploade it for you (do there are some tweak's but you can see and copy paste only the ''ai_don_not_attack'' line) - done

''Immortality trait'' - done

''Unique general models'' - again, There are no modeler's that want to work on that.. I can only re-texture some so ... Gonatas would have a beard etc.:shrug:


Excatly. The VC modding and money scripts have their own threats. Changes to the script that do reset the "not_attack"-feature after some time are ALX, but should not require to download a new money script or a city mod (that's another project in an other threat).

The point is Konny.. Lgk and I have agreed to make numerous of changes to many aspect of the game.. And you are here and you read the post's and now you are not clear with what was the idea of the mod? Do you read all the post's here???

Or do you tend to ignore what you don't like??

Maybe you are ignoring my calls to you to add the signature as all of us did - signatures that would lead other's to 'see' what EB team is doing - or just to lead them to the Alex.exe with EB instruction's thread! :gah:


I C E A G E??!!??

What has the Ice Age to do with the EB time frame? None of the cities, cultures or even people that we are talking about lived in the Ice Age or even close to it.

:gah:

The Last Ice age glacial advanced and reached its maximum in 15,000 BC - In Europe - ice sheet reached northern and central Germany. It mealted down completely after somewhat 10 000 years.. so you see that civilisantion's could not be developed in the palces people don't live.. BUT!

I wanted to say that you CAN't compare Germany that was under ice in the time Civilisations of Mediterranean existed - so comparation's of Berlin with Rome or Antioch are not in place.. because of Many many factors that were important after MidAges..


Absolutly not. Save for Prussia, who wasn't that important before 1815 and did not become something of an empire before 1866, Berlin was of no importance, neither politcal nor economical.

I would not go into any socio-political debate here.


Hamburg always was and still is amongst the most important sea trading towns in Europe. The thing is that Berlin managed to become three times bigger within just some years without any economic or geographic meaning.

Berlin's growth is comparable as the Growth of Paris and Belgrade, yet, you are refering to modern times that were effected by the TRevolution that resulted it... That would go as for the any capital city in the World and any in EB :square: .

It was build by Odo von Metz (Frank not Greek).[/QUOTE]

Charles the Great adored San Vitale he saw in Ravena that Roman's builted
during the existence of Exarchate of Ravenna in Italy. So Charles ordered Odo from Metz to designed Palatine chapel by copying the San Vitale from Ravena.. And even there he could not do it alone.. Then Charles gathered numerous Greek's and Roman's that new how to build it and had expirience in ERoman Empire - Odo was the pupil of Roman's from Constantinopl - and he could never build anything without Greek's in that time..

Anyway's It does not matter ... I adore the Palatine Chapel..

What does matter is !

That - we can make only engine features changes and upload them tomorow.. and we can call it a mod.. so It could be the LITE version..

But, I and Lgk and I think MiniMe would like numerous of changes that would go in 'Advanced AlexEBMod'.. and that does not have to be with ACMod I will make as opitional..

Ok?

[MiniMe]

Gentlemen
I don't see any sense in implementing any form of city mod with alex mod.
1. I'm completely satisfied with population growth as it is. In my current campaign after 320 turns (and that is typical average EB campaign length per my experience) cities population varies greatly. The majority of steppe settlements and northern europe forest villages are underpopulated as it should be, with some exeptions. The majority of mediterran coastal and middleeastern towns are big as it should. Many but not too much of them are huge. Such remarkable cities as Carthage, Rome, Capua, Alexandria, Babylon, Rodos are huge. Athenae and Ambrakia are big. Sparta and Syracusae are medium. Some shitty hole in the middle of the desert has total of 850. This kind of diversity (from 600 to 35000) looks fine to me. There already is some kind of population growth system in EB and me for sure is not able or willing to change it, cause it's working.
2. Anyway: EB building order is not linked to the amount of population! This means no city mod would be essential for the gameplay. I'm seriously thinking about (after discussing it with you) to implement further alterations to EDB (core building of certain level as a musthave prerequisite for MIC of certain level) but this is completely different issue that has nothing to do with city mod.
Cheers

[konny]

The point is Konny.. Lgk and I have agreed to make numerous of changes to many aspect of the game.. And you are here and you read the post's and now you are not clear with what was the idea of the mod? Do you read all the post's here???

I think that I have read most of your postings on EB here and in the TWC. And yes, I am aware of the changes you want to/did make to EB. And no, I do not understand what that (changing of unit stats, changing of settlemets, changing of money script, changing city growth) has to do with the ALX.exe.


The Last Ice age glacial advanced and reached its maximum in 15,000 BC - In Europe - ice sheet reached northern and central Germany. It mealted down completely after somewhat 10 000 years.. so you see that civilisantion's could not be developed in the palces people don't live.. BUT!

I wanted to say that you CAN't compare Germany that was under ice in the time Civilisations of Mediterranean existed - so comparation's of Berlin with Rome or Antioch are not in place.. because of Many many factors that were important after MidAges..

Are we talking about Ice Age Mediterranian cultures? I think that would be an interessting topic to talk about in general, but as long as it on EB we better should stick to scholary archeology. Or did I miss something in that calculation: the Ice Age ended about 10,000 BC and the cultures that did built all those hughe cities on the EB map did not exist before c. 800 BC.

[konny]

This kind of diversity (from 600 to 35000) looks fine to me. There already is some kind of population growth system in EB and me for sure is not able or willing to change it, cause it's working.

You can do simple changes by altering the base farming level of each province. It is extremly nerfed in EB from up to 14 maximum in RTW down to 3 or 4 maximum. The basic farming level is the reason why Karthago, for example, grows much faster than other towns.


I'm seriously thinking about (after discussing it with you) to implement further alterations to EDB (core building of certain level as a musthave prerequisite for MIC of certain level) but this is completely different issue that has nothing to do with city mod.

I see the point in it (villages should not have the abilities to raise high end elite units but just peasants).

The problem is that in the EB recruitement system the recruitement possiblities for every faction to raise elite units is limited to very few provinces each. Of these only some will reach a higher level to soon, others will stick to low-level towns for decades and so these factions will not be able to raise better units. I am thinking of Epeiros and Makedonia in particular. Or take KH for example: you'll probably never see Spartiates when she is required to advandce the town level in Sparta, for example, to 12,000 inhabitans before.

On the other hand the idea is tempting for units that represent some kind of self-equiped local militia and not professional soldiers equiped by the state or military settlers than can be placed everywhere. These levy forces can be for example linked to other buildings, not the MICs, whos construction would require to advance the town (for example improved farming, markets and some such).


------------------
EDIT
Example: I am just playing Karthago and use the Liby-Phoenician infantry (the Hoplites) and the respective cavalry plus the two Poeni citizen units to represent the local militia that is very much limited and can not be raised in larger numbers. Units like these can also be linked to other buildings (here better ports). You can also extend the region of recruitement for such units to allow Karthago, in our example, to raise these units everywhere in the Mediterranian where a large trading port was build, representing that these towns, when under Karthagian rule, will certainly have a large Poeni colony that will field its own militia.

[Maksimus]

I have updated the main post with a solution to a common bug many people had:yes:


That solution was originaly posted by Gerhard!:san_wink:

[Maksimus]

working.[/QUOTE]

I don't think EB system is working that good, that is why one powerful EB member made CityMod - still, one city mod is not a solution to my remarks:no:


2. Anyway: EB building order is not linked to the amount of population! This means no city mod would be essential for the gameplay.

I'm seriously thinking about (after discussing it with you) to implement further alterations to EDB (core building of certain level as a musthave prerequisite for MIC of certain level) but this is completely different issue that has nothing to do with city mod.
Cheers

The problem is not in EB building order and the fact it is not linked to the amount of population - the amount of population should not be much of a concern - It can vary in correspond to your and AI game - AI sometimes exterminates the population too :shrug:

Implementing alterations to EDB are welcome (in terms of adding bonuses to building's that dont have any and were very important - such as Academic building's, and add some recruitment's to some building's)
But..
Changing the 'core' like 'musthave' prerequisite for MIC of certain level is a completely different issue - still, it can solve some problem's but it can crate many more - like, that would be one major alteration that many player's wont like - including myself - that would mean that I 'must' invest in the 'core' if I want better infantry - that is not such a good solution for me, it would slow
ones expansion


The majority of steppe settlements and northern europe forest villages are underpopulated as it should be, with some exeptions. The majority of mediterran coastal and middleeastern towns are big as it should. Many but not too much of them are huge. Such remarkable cities as Carthage, Rome, Capua, Alexandria, Babylon, Rodos are huge. Athenae and Ambrakia are big. Sparta and Syracusae are medium. Some shitty hole in the middle of the desert has total of 850. This kind of diversity (from 600 to 35000) looks fine to me.

Everything of that is fine.. really - it is true (some sreenshots?), but did you read my post's here? I mean ALL my post's???
No body read's my post's whole :wall:

I posted pictures of various map's (betwean 200bc and 150bc) where ALL settlement's have:

1. Wall's or Large Wall's (about 90% of settlement's in Greece and West Asia and North Africa and Italy and Gaul)
2. Army or Royal barrack's (about 90% of settlement's in Greece and West Asia and North Africa and Italy and Gaul)
3. They are all Large or Huge (about 60%-70% of settlement's in Greece and West Asia and North Africa and Italy and Gaul)

The point is that : in 200bc and 150bc and 1bc and 500ad there were no more than a couple of Large and Huge Cities in Europe and West Asia, not to mentione Wall's and Big Barrack's..

One kind of City Mod could be a solution closer to realism - honestly, it would solve many issues that are like a fork into my eye:wall:

i will repost MAA word's with my comment's

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Features:
1.0:
-City sizes are restricted in most places with few being able to reach 'huge'.

In City mod there is HUGE resource for only couple of Cities that is about less then 5%, large are at about 10% ..etc and city for about 20%
I want to make it for 15% for Huge, 20% for Large and 30% for City resource
Which would go for Wall's too.. So this 65% of settlement's could have wall's

-Some buildings availabilty have been changed.
That would only be for some building's and barrack's - So Royal barrack's and Army barrack's would be able to exist along with Large wall's in Large and Huge cities - that is, in 35% of settlement's - not like 100% in EB
-Population growth decreased (mostly by removing most growth bonuses on buildings).
That we can implement anyway's
-Stone walls in less places (wooden still available everywhere). - that should be in.. by my opinion
-Roads available in less places (please post objections)... maybe that too, ..
-cunctator's First Cohort aspects. - we don't need that :laugh4:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

So all cities that are usually Large and Huge will be in any alteration's but, for example - that would not address to ALL cities in Asia Minor - just a couple ..

One solution aside the ACM (and that would work for me too) is to make all big ancient cities of that time (in 272bc) much bigger with infrastructure that can reflect realism (like one EB member said - ''If we are to make it historicly correct - some cities should have no building browser at all - they should be developed at Maximum at te start - or near maximum - like Alexadria and Athen's and Carthage and Pergammum.. etc)

Then we make the CORE and some HIGH-end buildind's construction times like 4-5 times longer so that AI expansion is slower (becasue sometimes he just can't control it self)

And I insist that you think about both option's - they can only bring to realism..

Anyway's we can make Lite and Optional addon's .. see..:san_grin:

[Maksimus]

You can do simple changes by altering the base farming level of each province. It is extremly nerfed in EB from up to 14 maximum in RTW down to 3 or 4 maximum. The basic farming level is the reason why Karthago, for example, grows much faster than other towns.

That would be good solutina along with some population growth bonuses..


I see the point in it (villages should not have the abilities to raise high end elite units but just peasants).

The problem is that in the EB recruitement system the recruitement possiblities for every faction to raise elite units is limited to very few provinces each. Of these only some will reach a higher level to soon, others will stick to low-level towns for decades and so these factions will not be able to raise better units. I am thinking of Epeiros and Makedonia in particular. Or take KH for example: you'll probably never see Spartiates when she is required to advandce the town level in Sparta, for example, to 12,000 inhabitans before.

I agree with that..

and..

Hello :gah:

I am talking about that for 7 days now. Villages and small town's should not have the abilities to raise high end elite's - but the barrack's system enables that - so the only thing we can do is to ADD hidden_resource's for the highe end Barrack's like Army/Royal/City to 50% totla rather then to 100% vanilla total region's able to build them

note: I added the Royal barrack's in Sparta so Spartiates can use Spartan's from the start (not like after 50-60 turn's)

Still, On VH AI find's it expensive to raise Spartan's so in my test's when KH destroyed Makedonia - AI had only 4 unit's of Spartan's in whole Greece..

I think I know why - I think AI calculates better on Alex.exe so he find's the cost and effectivenes of some elites - not so important vice versa medium infantry and their cost and use value :square:


On the other hand the idea is tempting for units that represent some kind of self-equiped local militia and not professional soldiers equiped by the state or military settlers than can be placed everywhere. These levy forces can be for example linked to other buildings, not the MICs, whos construction would require to advance the town (for example improved farming, markets and some such).

I am for that.. it could be very nice:square:



------------------
EDIT
Example: I am just playing Karthago and use the Liby-Phoenician infantry (the Hoplites) and the respective cavalry plus the two Poeni citizen units to represent the local militia that is very much limited and can not be raised in larger numbers. Units like these can also be linked to other buildings (here better ports). You can also extend the region of recruitement for such units to allow Karthago, in our example, to raise these units everywhere in the Mediterranian where a large trading port was build, representing that these towns, when under Karthagian rule, will certainly have a large Poeni colony that will field its own militia.

I agree.. that can work nice..:san_wink:

[Perturabo]

Loving EB on Alex.exe. Particularly good is the garrison retraining.
Syracusa for example, in 250BC has been the subject of numerous sieges by Karthadast and I believe Rome once or twice. My spy informs me that there are several units of triple silver chevron Syracusan Hoplites and units of Classical Hoplites and Greek Noble Cavalry with multiple chevrons, all nicely at full strength ready for the filthy foreign invaders :smash:

Having kept an eye on the area for a while I can guarantee the AI has not cheated, these guys started as inexperienced troops and have been retrained after every failed attack. Syracusa is currently a Large City and looks set to make it as the first 'rebel' massive city.
Messalia to the north has similarly repelled multiple foreign invasions and has full strength troops that are set to become a fearsom force. And yes, the population of the regions seems to drop with unit retraining!

[Maksimus]

I am glad you like the engine, still, those retreining's :wall:
It took me much longer to take Asia Minor as AS and Aegypt retrained all the way - And I have noticed that AI uses his resources much better - for example he start's to use more elites when he is in war or is attacked by ... me:yes: .. also when he is in trouble - but when he developes he tends to have an army he can upkeep with all kind's of unit's - that is a different story when he get's attacked - then you must break many 'hard walls' :wall:


it's not easy do :ballchain:

[Nom]

First i will thank you for the work you made for us


:wall: i have a problem with the way to make playable

first i made a copy of my unmodded alx.
then i install eb1+the permanent fixes
then the files for eb10alx
then i change the shortcut on my dektop to
W:\spiele\EB1ALX\RomeTW-ALX.exe -mod:eb -show_err
and try to start but something is wrong
please help me:help: :help: :help:

[konny]

What is wrong?

[konny]

1.0:
-City sizes are restricted in most places with few being able to reach 'huge'.

No. Arguments above.


-Some buildings availabilty have been changed.
That would only be for some building's and barrack's - So Royal barrack's and Army barrack's would be able to exist along with Large wall's in Large and Huge cities - that is, in 35% of settlement's - not like 100% in EB

Makedonia would be much limited in raising the following units for most of the game:

Pheraspides
Lonchophoroi Hippeis
Hysteroi Pezhetairoi
Hetairoi Aspidophoroi
Argyraspides
Agrianikoi Pelekuphoroi
Hypaspistai
Hetairoi

The same would be for Epeiros, but not for AS and Ptolemaioi. That would seriously unblanace the game. Top level barracks build by the AI in places where it cannot raise any Level V factional units do not matter.


-Population growth decreased (mostly by removing most growth bonuses on buildings).

Population is allready very, very low in EB and groth extremly reduced. Most Eleutheroi settlements and about all the smaller factions have drafted for the army about 150% of their population after some years of gaming.

I do not consider these numbers realistic and would rather go the other way around.

Raising base farming would lead to:
- more income by farming
- higher population
- improved economy
- more unrest and so slower expansion of both human and AI
- no need for the scripted population-replentish and so a leaner script
- may be also lesser money help for the AI factions?


-Stone walls in less places (wooden still available everywhere). - that should be in.. by my opinion

Save for those towns that cannot build stonewalls allready in EB (for example the Sweboz settlements), it would be absolutly unrealistic for a Polis of any meaning in those days to be defended by nothing but a wooden fence. Medium stonewalls should be the minimum for most of these settlements and hughe ones should be very common too. Before Alexander, sieges usually failed and even after him only very few conquerers were able to take a settlement other than by starving it out.


-Roads available in less places (please post objections)... maybe that too, ..

The same as above. Roads of varing quality were very common everywhere and it would be very unrealisitic if that would not appear in EB.

[Skandaz.Imperator]

Works like a charm. ALEX is sooo much better for EB than the original RTW

[Hooahguy]

this mod looks very good, and i an to really try it out, but, as most know, am in the middle of an AAR, and dont ant to restart. i probably overlooked s/t, but is this save-game compatable? i dont have BI.exe installed, but i do hae TWFanatics minimod installed.
and do i need to buy Alexander? the instructions werent very clear.
speaking of clarity, IMO, the instructions werent very clear at all, at least for me. :sad:

[konny]

this mod looks very good, and i an to really try it out, but, as most know, am in the middle of an AAR, and dont ant to restart. i probably overlooked s/t, but is this save-game compatable? i dont have BI.exe installed, but i do hae TWFanatics minimod installed.

Changing the exe is savegame compatible. Changes in descr_start are not, because they are only read once when starting a new campaing. So, you can play with the ALX.exe benefiting from the better AI but you cannot use nightbattles.

Because of the "immortal"-issue it is anyway better to start a new campaign because changing the trait file mid-game might mess up all traits so far aquired by your characters.


and do i need to buy Alexander?

Yes, because you need the ALX.exe and chatfilter.san from that programm.

[Maksimus]

[QUOTE=Nom]
then the files for eb10alx
QUOTE]

Do you mean the download link's?? - They are updated...

And thank you for suppot .)

[Maksimus]

this mod looks very good, and i an to really try it out, but, as most know, am in the middle of an AAR, and dont ant to restart. i probably overlooked s/t, but is this save-game compatable? i dont have BI.exe installed, but i do hae TWFanatics minimod installed.
and do i need to buy Alexander? the instructions werent very clear.
speaking of clarity, IMO, the instructions werent very clear at all, at least for me. :sad:

Anyway, this is not a mod - the mod thread is in a sub-forum, but thank you - this thread only 'guides' EB fan's how to play EB vanill with Alex.exe engine :shrug:

And you only need Alexander and RTW + patches to use ALX.exe for EB :curtain:

[Ymarsakar]

That lag on the campaign map when scrolling with the keyboard keys can be fixed by deleting portions of the EBB script. I removed the client ruler portion, for example, and it makes the game much more playable while scrolling. Reduces game turns as well.

[Maksimus]

Konny, you have wrong quotas '' Originally Posted by Maksimus
1.0:
-City sizes are restricted in most places with few being able to reach 'huge'.''
It was Originally Posted by MMAntonius - not me, so I don't agree with that.
But I do agree with: ''That would only be for some building's and barrack's - So Royal barrack's and Army barrack's would be able to exist along with Large wall's in Large and Huge cities - that is, in 35% of settlement's - not like 100% in EB''
This means that there should be only 1/3 ot the settlement's in which each faction can build Army or Royal barracks.. What's not right with that? Do you know that army and royal barrack's even in AS Empire were rare and only existed (I think during the whole period of AS existence) in Antioh and Seleucia.. and one minor in the East??? - did you know that Alexandria was true and mostly only center where Aegypt drawed any unit's at all? And you still want them to have Army barracks everywhere ?? - That is pure fantasy ! Do I respect your opinion - the fact is that Huge and Large Cities and Army and Royal barracks were VERY very rare - manly one or two per state - not more!:wall:

By that I say that your Arguments above are not refering to any fact or historic reference that would counter the calims about urealistic city size's that are all large and/or Huge in EB vanilla (in areas such as AsiaMinor) untill 100bc - THAT IS EVEN WIDELY ACCEPTED in EB team and most of RTW modding projects! Do I really have to drain maps and upload them here so you can SEE that there were only a COUPLE OF HUGE CITIES in the Euro-World until 18-19 century??!

''Makedonia would be much limited in raising the following units for most of the game''

I think you still don't understand what I am talking about for day's here:viking:
Look! ... Makedonia can train Elite Phalanx in 11 regions: Pella, Demetrias, Pergammum, Sardis, Halikarnasus, Alexandreia, Antioch, Babylon, Seleucia, Cypros and the region at Persian Sea..

SO - We enable the Royal Army ability FOR MAKEDONIA in: Pella, Pergammum, Alexandreia, Antioh, Babylon, Seleucia, now....., Alexandria, Pella, Antioch and Pergammum can also raise Hetairoi for example ..
- What did we do?? We just made 50% less region's where they can use elites - and if you count that AI build's barrack's in short time period's (relatively) this is the only solution if you don't want to come across ROYAL's ALL around - which is stupid -
But if we count that Pella has Army barrack's at the start - then It will matter less!

''The same would be for Epeiros, but not for AS and Ptolemaioi. That would seriously unblanace the game. Top level barracks build by the AI in places where it cannot raise any Level V factional units do not matter. ''

The same explanation for Makedon goes for Epeiros too (do, due to the MIC shared system.. I am not sure Alex enables more building's to use??)

It would not unbalance the game, remmeber when you said that adding Army barracks to capitols will unbalance the game? - Well it didn't - that helped AI expansion and better balance and gamplay
I agree about Level V factional unit's..
That is why EVERY FACTION COULD have ROYAL in places THEY CAN USE THE BEST OF THEIR UNIT'S -- I would never consider to make Aegypt NOT have royal barrack's building ability in areas they can raise Hetairoi!
All my test's are according to the ::Recruitment viewer:: - so there could be no mistake


Population is allready very, very low in EB and groth extremly reduced. Most Eleutheroi settlements and about all the smaller factions have drafted for the army about 150% of their population after some years of gaming.

I do not consider these numbers realistic and would rather go the other way around.

I agree about the Raising base farming.. it's ok..

''Save for those towns that cannot build stonewalls allready in EB (for example the Sweboz settlements), it would be absolutly unrealistic for a Polis of any meaning in those days to be defended by nothing but a wooden fence. Medium stonewalls should be the minimum for most of these settlements and hughe ones should be very common too. Before Alexander, sieges usually failed and even after him only very few conquerers were able to take a settlement other than by starving it out.''

:gah:

W...whhh.. why didn't you backed me up when I said that due to realism - ALL Polises - and cities (for example almost ALL town's in AsiaMinor, Aegypt, Greece and Italy and some others) SHOULD have stone wall's from the start and that goes for more and more infrastructure that some cities HAVE TO HAVE more infrastructure from the start! Like almost all Hellenic cities should have SEWER's:shrug: + other thing's they had - like theater's (the one in Corintos and Pergammum were among greatest)...


The Road's should have no changes - but that is your remark to MAA word's - not mine!:gah:

[Maksimus]

I think that I have read most of your postings on EB here and in the TWC. And yes, I am aware of the changes you want to/did make to EB. And no, I do not understand what that (changing of unit stats, changing of settlemets, changing of money script, changing city growth) has to do with the ALX.exe.

I missed this..

Ok, maybe I did not made myself clear - I called you and Lgk to form a team that would make EB 'mini-mod' that will work manly on Alex.exe, and that it would be called 'Alexander EB Mod' and that it would be discussed here..

I never said that the mod development will only be about tweak's based on just a couple of Advanced ALX.exe option's :no:
Those tweak's are so small and simple that I can upload 'core' of them - AND THAT IS ONLY ''ai_not_attack faction'' tweak - tonight along in the Alexander EB thread.. :gah:

Lgk and I agreed on implementing inovation's, numerous tweak's to mod stats, changes of settlemets, scripts, city importance, trait's system, DMB, attribute, new building's, etc.. And when it's done for EB 1.1 it will be called 'AlexanderEBMod' !

Now, I can see that you only want to help in tweak's that are mentioned in the main post of this thread - fine.. Then we can make that and call it: 'AlexanderEBMod' - Lite version!

But I am not giving up of my inovation's and ideas because one ''does not think it will be ok'' - by that I don't refer to you but to people that have comment's but no solutions for obvious problems that are MAJOR or just tend to IGNORE them. Major problems persist in EB game-play for some very smart EB's and some VERY active RTW players including myself.

So, I am sorry If I led you to belive otherwise - because major alteration's of EB are going to be done for 'AlexanderEBMod' and that will support EB games based on RTW and BI.exe - Lgk and I have very common language on this, it's just that he has no time now so It could seem I speek for him - that is not true - he PM's me and he read's the thread:boxing:

And.. I don't want to be rude but I suggest this link..
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=95726 - you should see Atlantis.., I really don't have time to quote until forever here - .. (Mediterranean cultures that created Hellenic are ... old as Aegypt 'old kingdoms')

[Maksimus]

I know, but due to respect to EB team - I tend not to delete their work..
Still, I have one nice PC so I have no probs with lags anyway's - do I know alot of people that do have 'slow-downs' and it is more than annoying, on ALX there are really less lags :san_grin:

[konny]

Look! ... Makedonia can train Elite Phalanx in 11 regions: Pella, Demetrias, Pergammum, Sardis, Halikarnasus, Alexandreia, Antioch, Babylon, Seleucia, Cypros and the region at Persian Sea..

SO - We enable the Royal Army ability FOR MAKEDONIA in: Pella, Pergammum, Alexandreia, Antioh, Babylon, Seleucia, now....., Alexandria, Pella, Antioch and Pergammum can also raise Hetairoi for example ..
- What did we do?? We just made 50% less region's where they can use elites

Of these Makedonia has only access to Pella on game start and will very certainly make it at maximum to Pergamon, when controlled by the AI. If you require a higher town level to build better barracks, Makedonia will never be able to raise these units because the only towns that will reach that level in some time are Antiochia and Alexandria.

If you add hidden ressources by random to some of the regions that should be able to field these forces and to other not that should also be able to do so, I think you should give a valid explanation for doing so. Why, for example, should Makedonia be able to raise their elite in a far away foreign spot like Babylon and not in neighbouring Thessaly?

You should keep in mind that the zones of recruitement in EB do represent the regions in which the population to field a specific unit settled in larger numbers, here Makedonians. And that the MIC does not represent a shining hughe building in a provincial capital (in fact only the minority of these soldiers lived in barracks), but the possible military consitution under a specific governement.

Establishing that requires the investment of time and money, but it is and should be possible everywhere the needed population lived.


- and if you count that AI build's barrack's in short time period's (relatively) this is the only solution if you don't want to come across ROYAL's ALL around - which is stupid -

What's the problem with Royal Barracks all around? In most of these structures the AI can't raise anything above level 3 or maximum 4. Only in their heartlands is the widespread recruitement of elites possible, and these are provinces that are either next to each other or even such that you want to create maximum barrackes in right from the start. So what should be improved in gameplay by this massive cut through the most important part of EB, the AOR?


The same explanation for Makedon goes for Epeiros too (do, due to the MIC shared system.. I am not sure Alex enables more building's to use??)

????


It would not unbalance the game, remmeber when you said that adding Army barracks to capitols will unbalance the game? - Well it didn't - that helped AI expansion and better balance and gamplay

Gameplay yes. Better balance? How?


[why didn't you backed me up when I said that due to realism - ALL Polises - and cities (for example almost ALL town's in AsiaMinor, Aegypt, Greece and Italy and some others) SHOULD have stone wall's from the start and that goes for more and more infrastructure

I like the development part of EB. It is nice that the towns start small with only a little infrastructure that has to be developed during the game. Otherwise most of the towns should have most of the building right from the start, but that would make an extremingly boring game.

Just keep that as it is: Every town has the ability to grow and raise better structres. Otherwise running around and conquering the map would be all that is left to the player.

But I agree that the starting armies should be of better quality for most of the factions, in particular the Hellenic; and/or every faction should start with one town where it can raise at least average units, in particular those that start at war with another faction. It is not much fun to fight the opening battles with Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai.

In my descr_strat I used the following sollution: Epeiros, Makedonia, KH, AS and Ptolemaioi start the game with stronger armies of good quality. But these are first of all mercs. So, once they have eleminated each other in their opening battles they can not be retrained and so do not unbalance the game according to other factions that do not start with a major war or represent states that were hinterland kingdoms in 272 and therefore should not start with an elite army.


The Road's should have no changes - but that is your remark to MAA word's - not mine!

MAA can change his EB as ever he like, but I do not agree with his approach and therefore do not want to implement his mod into this one or any other that I play.




And.. I don't want to be rude but I suggest this link..
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=95726 - you should see Atlantis.., I really don't have time to quote until forever here - .. (Mediterranean cultures that created Hellenic are ... old as Aegypt 'old kingdoms')

As said before, it is an interessting topic to talk about (I know of the arguments for pre-3,000 BC advanced cultures in the Mediterranian Basin), but as long as we are talking about EB we should stick to scholary historiography, in particular as long as we are talking about towns that were raised after c. 800BC.

[Ymarsakar]

I know, but due to respect to EB team - I tend not to delete their work..
Still, I have one nice PC so I have no probs with lags anyway's - do I know alot of people that do have 'slow-downs' and it is more than annoying, on ALX there are really less lags :san_grin:

What CPU/Ram do you have?

[Maksimus]

Intel C2D E4400, 2x1gigDDRu800mhz, AsusEN8800gts:curtain:
But if I use EB on ALX on my older Celeron,.. it still works anyway:shrug:

[Ymarsakar]

Do you get any of the keyboard scroll stuttering on your Celeron but not your Intel?

[Maksimus]

Well, on Celeron - yes, all the time.. But on C2d almost never - but there are some keyboard scroll stuttering always - so even on ALX you will get them sometimes., but it will be less, and AI will play and think faster so you don't have to wait that long for AI to finish his turn:wall:

And all in general - and those are not just my word's .. - EB on ALX.exe is at least 30% faster, do on my CPU it is more than 50% - that is my opinion..:shrug:

[Maksimus]

Of these Makedonia has only access to Pella on game start and will very certainly make it at maximum to Pergamon, when controlled by the AI. If you require a higher town level to build better barracks, Makedonia will never be able to raise these units because the only towns that will reach that level in some time are Antiochia and Alexandria.

It wont require a higher town level to build better barracks :no:
So the faction's will be able to build barracks no matter the town level:yes:


If you add hidden ressources by random to some of the regions that should be able to field these forces and to other not that should also be able to do so, I think you should give a valid explanation for doing so. Why, for example, should Makedonia be able to raise their elite in a far away foreign spot like Babylon and not in neighbouring Thessaly?

You should keep in mind that the zones of recruitement in EB do represent the regions in which the population to field a specific unit settled in larger numbers, here Makedonians. And that the MIC does not represent a shining hughe building in a provincial capital (in fact only the minority of these soldiers lived in barracks), but the possible military consitution under a specific governement.

The point is to make number of elites harder to get in the start and LATELY IN THE GAME - like after 150-100bc vice versa.
We can add the resource to all 11 provinces:shrug: - the EB way.. but that would not be my idea on this..
Because, Army barracks and ROYAL, should be reserved for Capitols of states and major Geopolitical centers of the region's.

In the Makedonian case Army made up of elite phalanx (or elites in general) WOULD BE GATHERED IN PELLA - in anyway that Elite Phalanx population could live all around Greece and in Tessaly and IN OTHER REGIONS EB DID NOT PUT IN EB !! - but they would come under one command in the capitol - Pella where they came under one general, - I know from books I read that Army gathering's during VI and XII century (in which it was explained that even in ancient Makedonia it was done that way!) in ERoman Empire, were more like massive voyages of the army form region's they lived in TO THE CAPITAL where they would come under one command (or in SOME cases in one safe part from the Empire) - they did not act anyway anywhere before they got to capital and the ''Royal Armoury'' when some the did not have full equipment would get some add-ons from the Capitol and some would not:shrug: - and then the Army would have their officers and generals!

That is clear proof that IT DID not Really matter where the army population lived (becasue they did not RAISE to ARM's there - they just came from there) - but where they were GATHERED to come under one command -
In EB you can use the local's /AS ELITES - to go and win anywhere - that was not the case in realy ancient life - The army had to be gathered and then used - that is the point of JUST some Army and Royal barrack's available for any faction.

The only compromise here could be that we make number of barracks as I suggested and ADD ELITES TO BE BUILD in other EB regions - like Tessaly and Sardis - IF ! - the town is Large so the then the 'Core' building may be the recruitment center!


Establishing that requires the investment of time and money, but it is and should be possible everywhere the needed population lived.

That was not the case - the Elite Phalanx population often had soldier's form thrace that would come to CAPITOL and then would make their fortune and status in Makedonian Army.. I think that even some Celt's were in the phalanx ranks - more to it in Elite phalanx rank's of Alexander - I think that is a fact:stwshame:


What's the problem with Royal Barracks all around? In most of these structures the AI can't raise anything above level 3 or maximum 4. Only in their heartlands is the widespread recruitement of elites possible, and these are provinces that are either next to each other or even such that you want to create maximum barrackes in right from the start. So what should be improved in gameplay by this massive cut through the most important part of EB, the AOR?

You are right about that - and I agree, my problem is that during the game there is one massive and unrealistic growht in numbers of barrack's - That is why I urge you and I insist that we MUST make Army and Royal barrack's avalilable at the start for MOST if not ALL faction's capitals..

My problem here are short construction times for MOST of HIGH END BUILDING's -- So by some time MANY OTHER cities would have royal barracks
THEY DONT NEED TO USE!!

Like Makedonia does not have almost ANY use of Royal barracks in BYZANTIUM and the AI will waste resources and time to build ti!!!

We could disable army and royal barrack's to the region's that have almost NO USE of those structures -

Anothe example! .. Aegypt can't train Elites in Cypros and Sidon - there for AI has no use of building Army and Royal barracks in those two region's - but CPU build's it anyway - he wastes resources and time and that creates additional problems to EBBS (beacuse it will ask more money):shrug:


????.

By this I meant to make faction's have their own and only MIC, not-shared MIC, but I think it is not possible :no:


Gameplay yes. Better balance? How?

Because IT IS MORE REAL - it is closer to the historic fact's - the fact, for example is that Pyrros had elites when he was at Sparta and Italy - in EB - he will die before AI or Human player could take Pyrros into new campaigns with armies that he 'HAD' under his command according to historic notes - once or twice EB member's said that was true - but because of the gamplay they did not want to implement it :gah:


I like the development part of EB. It is nice that the towns start small with only a little infrastructure that has to be developed during the game. Otherwise most of the towns should have most of the building right from the start, but that would make an extremingly boring game.

Just keep that as it is: Every town has the ability to grow and raise better structres. Otherwise running around and conquering the map would be all that is left to the player.

I like the development part of EB too - but for region's that should be developed and not most of the towns. Some should have most of the building right from the start - just the ones that were Large at Huge at that time.

I like EB becasue it is mostly based on rude Historcs fact's - and that IS why I was VERY disapointed when I saw 'vanilla model' descr_start.txt and C_script.txt

It can not be a fantasy game and history - note correct game in the same time.. Te community had those discussions in some thread's and you know what - there is a large number of EB's that see it my way too - the historicly more correct way.. Anyway - we already agreed that construction time's for Army and Royla barrack's sould be 2 times longer!

I wont compromise on that (on that whole hictoric verses fantasy concept of C_script), .. sorry (still that does not mean that we should not make the mod.. it just means that no matter what I will do it with Lgk and will say that 'that mod is optional' add-on to 'AlexEBMod' Lite)


But I agree that the starting armies should be of better quality for most of the factions, in particular the Hellenic; and/or every faction should start with one town where it can raise at least average units, in particular those that start at war with another faction. It is not much fun to fight the opening battles with Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai.

In my descr_strat I used the following sollution: Epeiros, Makedonia, KH, AS and Ptolemaioi start the game with stronger armies of good quality. But these are first of all mercs. So, once they have eleminated each other in their opening battles they can not be retrained and so do not unbalance the game according to other factions that do not start with a major war or represent states that were hinterland kingdoms in 272 and therefore should not start with an elite army.

I gree too, starting armies should be of better quality for most of the factions and so should barracks for the capitols, also, you can make as many elites to the descr_start.txt for AS and Aegypt - the ''ai_attack'' command line will safe guard the smaller faction's until they decide to take a part in major war (that can be seen on my sreen's up).


MAA can change his EB as ever he like, but I do not agree with his approach and therefore do not want to implement his mod into this one or any other that I play.

You dont have to agree with his approach - or mine (that is not btw the same as his).. you don't have to use additional add-on for 'AlexEBMod' that Lgk and I are working on :shrug:

We will make one version that would have minor 'EB vanilla' changes, and you want to support that one only - fine! I support it too!

But it seems that you want to suppress my and Lgk ideas (that tend to change Much more in EB than you want) and work only by YOUR OPINION !

That is not a discussion at all! I and Lgk WONT make massive changes and then add the download link and say - KONNY did this.. NO!

We will develop -Alexander EB Mod- with you and MiniMe and other's that come along and implement all changes we ALL agree on - but we will also make ADD-ON! or you may call it EXTENDED ALEXANDER EB MOD! That will be enabled for use on any EXE. and this one will be ''SIGNED'' by myself and Lgk! You have no part in it - as I can see - so you wont be blamed if someone protest's because of that!

That is how it will be done! I wont argue here for day's just becasue you don't understand all my ideas! The ideas are to be seen after made - not proved - this is not Vatican - it's a forum, and the fact you are for 'already' in use ideas that EB team made wont make me accuse EB team of being 'foolish'
- they have to make it vanilla as posible in terms of gameplay so they would not have to argue like ME with you here.. (and they need as much as fans as possible)

And imagine If I am now to realease all my ideal 'tweaks' that I will implement in 'ExtensiveAlexEBMod' and trait's ideas that Lgk will implement? Or HP tweak's that solve more misfortune AI autocalculation bug's of vanilla, such as Hit Points from 1 to 1,3 for HArcher's and phalanx. And that I want to make Stone Wall's able to be constructed only if there is one Academy in the city?? See???

Imagine?? - We would argue here for decades!

We have to much different philosophies on this - there are so many different opinions on many issues between us here - issues Lgk and I don't have to that extend..

Sorry, but from now I will only discuss issues with you that we agreed upon.
There are many so we can make one version of 'AlexEbMod' together:stwshame:

[Lgk]

Really, what's so terrible about "AI bulding a lot of royal barracks and recruiting a lot of elites"? By any means, let the poor dumb AI use as much elites as he wants (esp in "EB Lite" mod variant)! That won't save him. ;) And entire RTW recruiting system isn't very "historical" anyway, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

Btw MICs not tied to city sizes imo isn't a problem at all - we can always add something like "and building_present_min_level imperial_palace (...proconsuls_palace for barbarians)" in EDB as a prerequisite for elite MICs (that's up to MiniMe). I don't think it interferes with any reforms mechanism... hope EB team members will assure us if i'm right?

[MiniMe]

Btw MICs not tied to city sizes imo isn't a problem at all - we can always add something like "and building_present_min_level imperial_palace (...proconsuls_palace for barbarians)" in EDB as a prerequisite for elite MICs
my thoughts exactly =)
not enough time to post now, will reappear during the night.

in short

1. on Poeni militia - AOR certainly should be increased and match LibiPhoenikian AOR because of one simple reason - if there are bastards, then there should be their fathers.

2. on Konny Sparta based argument - well, I wasn't going to tie 5 level MIC to 5 level government ;-)
I was going to suggest you to choose from these

5 level MIC - 4 level core_building as prerequisite
4 level MIC - 3 level core_building as prerequisite
3 level MIC - 2 level core_building as prerequisite

or

5 level MIC - 3 level core_building as prerequisite
4 level MIC - 2 level core_building as prerequisite

(me strongly simpatise first one)

3. on producing units from building that differ from MIC - strictly against. This would be beginning of the end.

4. on giving capitals best MICs from the start - against the best MICs. Some factions, however, lack level 3 MIC in their capital. Methinks this could be a good compromise.

5. on giving some factions more or less historically realistic good stacks from the start - yes, many good things can be achieved by this

Maximus, I promise to carefully reexamine all your posts tonight :yes:

Cheers
MM

[konny]

2. on Konny Sparta based argument - well, I wasn't going to tie 5 level MIC to 5 level government ;-)
I was going to suggest you to choose from these

5 level MIC - 4 level core_building as prerequisite
4 level MIC - 3 level core_building as prerequisite
3 level MIC - 2 level core_building as prerequisite

That would be 12,000 inhabitans for Sparta to raise the first Spartiate Hoplite (Level 5 is 24,000); starting population is 1,260, growth rate about 1% to 2%. I can't remember to have Sparte growing to this size in any of my games, but it would certainly be sometimes around the Marian Reforms.

[Maksimus]

I strongly urge all of you that Sparta MUST have Spartan's form the start in 272bc - that means adding Royal Army Barrack's to Sparta - In my test's - AI uses Spartan's and Elites in smal scope - like 5-10% of total unit's ..

That brings more gameplay..

I have uploade my beta test files - you can see that it is obvious that adding the Army barracks for most of the faction's from the start in their capitols will just add to the gameplay, realism, and challenge - it wont unbalance the game :no:

[Maksimus]

my thoughts exactly =)
not enough time to post now, will reappear during the night.

in short

1. on Poeni militia - AOR certainly should be increased and match LibiPhoenikian AOR because of one simple reason - if there are bastards, then there should be their fathers.

2. on Konny Sparta based argument - well, I wasn't going to tie 5 level MIC to 5 level government ;-)
I was going to suggest you to choose from these

5 level MIC - 4 level core_building as prerequisite
4 level MIC - 3 level core_building as prerequisite
3 level MIC - 2 level core_building as prerequisite

or

5 level MIC - 3 level core_building as prerequisite
4 level MIC - 2 level core_building as prerequisite

(me strongly simpatise first one)

3. on producing units from building that differ from MIC - strictly against. This would be beginning of the end.

4. on giving capitals best MICs from the start - against the best MICs. Some factions, however, lack level 3 MIC in their capital. Methinks this could be a good compromise.

5. on giving some factions more or less historically realistic good stacks from the start - yes, many good things can be achieved by this

Maximus, I promise to carefully reexamine all your posts tonight :yes:

Cheers
MM

I am saying again - If we add resources for the settlement's much of those problems would be avoided.. like this we need to compromise forever:gah:

But since this is that way it is.. ok.. (I still stand on my ideas for extended mod.. sill I might loosen a bit:ballchain: )

Answers:

1 - OK!

2 - Well, I am not for it really, - EXEPT if we agree to make the Polises bigger at the start in General - like in the Historical perspective - that would mean to take away most of development areas for very well known cities that would now be mostly developed fully.

And Konny is right on this - as far as Sparta is concerned we must not tight it to core building's - unless we use Royal for KH in Sparta at the start and then we can make it work - but, really, this was not the case then I think..

And if we must do it

5 level MIC - 3 level core_building as prerequisite
4 level MIC - 0 level core_building as prerequisite

??

Also + 2 times construction for high-end barracks is wellcome

3 - It's fine, we dont have to do it.

4 - The best MICs from the start are only in Alexandreia and Antioch in my propositon I PMed you people. And all factions mostly have MIC 3 level - that does not the trick :no: Because basic elites that were used at that time are in Army barrack's. Silver Shield's (elite phalanx) were used In Every Battle of the Successor's states :wall: - that MUST be available from the start! It only bring's realism I made alreration's to C_script.txt like this:

;******************************
; Create commented out barracks
;******************************


;SPQR
;Latium2 - Rome
console_command create_building Rome army_barracks_A1
console_command create_building Rome roads
;Etruria - Arretium
console_command create_building Arretium militia_barracks_A1
console_command create_building Arretium roads
;Umbria - Ariminum
console_command create_building Ariminum muster_field_A
console_command create_building Ariminum roads
;Campania - Capua
console_command create_building Capua militia_barracks_A1
console_command create_building Capua roads
;Apulia - Arpi
console_command create_building Arpi muster_field_A
console_command create_building Arpi roads

;Arverni
;Arvernotorg - Gergovia
console_command create_building Gergovia army_barracks_D1

;Lugonesis - Viennos
console_command create_building Viennos muster_field_D
;Sequallra - Vesontio
console_command create_building Vesontio muster_field_D

;Saba
;Saba - Maryab
console_command create_building Maryab city_barracks_F1
console_command create_building Maryab farms

;Makedonia
;Makedonia - Pella
console_command create_building Pella army_barracks_K1
console_command create_building Pella roads
;Thessalia - Demetrias
console_command create_building Demetrias muster_field_K
console_command create_building Demetrias city_barracks_Y1
console_command create_building Demetrias roads
;Peloponnesos - Korinthos
console_command create_building Korinthos city_barracks_K1
console_command create_building Korinthos roads
;Lesbos - Mytilene
console_command create_building Mytilene muster_field_K
;Euboia - Chalkis
console_command create_building Chalkis muster_field_K

;Ptolemaioi
;Heptanomis - Memphis
console_command create_building Memphis city_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Memphis roads
;Delta_Neilou - Alexandreia

console_command create_building Alexandreia royal_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Alexandreia paved_roads
;Thebais - Diospolis_Megale
console_command create_building Diospolis_Megale militia_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Diospolis_Megale roads
;Kypros - Salamis
console_command create_building Salamis muster_field_J
;Ioudaia - Hierosolyma
console_command create_building Hierosolyma militia_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Hierosolyma roads
;Phoenicia - Sidon
console_command create_building Sidon militia_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Sidon roads
;Marmarike - Paraitonion
console_command create_building Paraitonion muster_field_J
;Triakontaschoinos - Pselkis
console_command create_building Pselkis muster_field_J
;Oasis_Megale - Hibis
console_command create_building Hibis muster_field_J
;Kilikia - Tarsos
console_command create_building Tarsos muster_field_J
;Pamphylia - Side
console_command create_building Side muster_field_J
;Erythraia - Ptolemais_Theron
console_command create_building Ptolemais_Theron muster_field_J

;Arche Seleukideia
;Syria - Antiocheia
console_command create_building Antiocheia royal_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Antiocheia roads
console_command create_building Antiocheia sewers
;Syria_Koile - Damaskos
console_command create_building Damaskos muster_field_J
;Assyrie - Edessa
console_command create_building Edessa muster_field_J
console_command create_building Edessa roads
;Mesopotamia - Seleukeia
console_command create_building Seleukeia army_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Seleukeia villa
console_command create_building Seleukeia great_forum
console_command create_building Seleukeia aqueduct
console_command create_building Seleukeia hospital
console_command create_building Seleukeia theatre
console_command create_building Seleukeia paved_roads
;Babylonia - Babylon
console_command create_building Babylon paved_roads
console_command create_building Babylon sewers
;Lydia - Sardis
console_command create_building Sardis city_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Sardis roads
;Elymais - Susa
console_command create_building Susa militia_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Susa roads
;Media - Ekbatana
console_command create_building Ekbatana militia_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Ekbatana sewers
console_command create_building Ekbatana roads
;Kappadokia - Mazaka
console_command create_building Mazaka muster_field_J
;Hyrkania - Zadrakata
console_command create_building Zadrakata muster_field_J
;Persis - Persepolis
console_command create_building Persepolis militia_barracks_J1
console_command create_building Persepolis roads
console_command create_building Persepolis sewers
;Gabiene - Gabai
console_command create_building Gabai muster_field_J
;Karmania - Karmana
console_command create_building Karmana muster_field_J ;No barracks in starting in this settlment
;Drangiane - Prophthasia
console_command create_building Prophthasia muster_field_J
console_command create_building Prophthasia roads
;Aria - Alexandreia_Ariana
console_command create_building Alexandreia_Ariana muster_field_J
;Margiana - Antiocheia_Margianea
console_command create_building Antiocheia_Margiane muster_field_J
console_command create_building Antiocheia_Margiane roads
;Charax_Spasinou - Charax
console_command create_building Charax muster_field_J
;Astauene - Asaak
console_command create_building Asaak militia_barracks_J1
;Parthava - Hekatompylos
console_command create_building Hekatompylos muster_field_J
console_command create_building Hekatompylos roads
;Khoarene - Apameia
console_command create_building Apameia muster_field_J
;Phrygia - Ipsos
console_command create_building Ipsos muster_field_J
;Sophene - Karkathiokerta
console_command create_building Karkathiokerta muster_field_J
;Adiabene - Arbela
console_command create_building Arbela muster_field_J

;Karthadast
;Zeugitana - Kart_Hadast
console_command create_building Kart_Hadast army_barracks_L1
console_command create_building Kart_Hadast paved_roads
;Atiqa - Atiqa
console_command create_building Atiqa city_barracks_L1
console_command create_building Atiqa paved_roads
;Elimya - Lilibeo
console_command create_building Lilibeo city_barracks_L1
;Byzacena - Adrumeto
console_command create_building Adrumeto militia_barracks_L1
console_command create_building Adrumeto paved_roads
;Sardin - Karali
console_command create_building Karali muster_field_L
;Baleares - Bocchoris
console_command create_building Bocchoris muster_field_L
;Turdetania - Gader
console_command create_building Gader militia_barracks_L1
;Korsim - Alalia
console_command create_building Alalia muster_field_L
;Syrthim - Lepki
console_command create_building Lepki muster_field_L
console_command create_building Lepki temple_of_fertility_shrine
;Bastetania - Mastia
console_command create_building Mastia muster_field_L
console_command create_building Mastia temple_of_fertility_shrine
;Mashiliem - Ippone
console_command create_building Ippone muster_field_L
console_command create_building Ippone roads
console_command create_building Ippone temple_of_fertility_shrine

;Pontos
;Kappadokia_Pontika - Amaseia
console_command create_building Amaseia army_barracks_H1

;Aedui
;Mrogaedu - Bibracte
console_command create_building Bibracte ‚army_barracks_D1

;Insubramrog - Mediolanum
console_command create_building Mediolanum militia_barracks_D1
;Mrogaule - Cenabum
console_command create_building Cenabum muster_field_D

;Sweboz
;Swebolandam - Swebotraustastamnoz
console_command create_building Swebotraustastamnoz army_barracks_G1

;Casse
;Cassemorg - Camulosadae
console_command create_building Camulosadae city_barracks_D1

;Hayasdan
;Hayasdan - Armavir
;console_command create_building Armavir army_barracks_H1

;Getai
;Getia - Buridava
console_command create_building Buridava army_barracks_G1

;Koinon Hellenon
;Lakonike - Sparte
console_command create_building Sparte royal_barracks_I1
console_command create_building Sparte roads
;Rhodos - Rhodos
console_command create_building Rhodos city_barracks_I1
;Attike - Athenai
console_command create_building Athenai city_barracks_I1
console_command create_building Athenai theatre
console_command create_building Athenai roads

;Baktria
;Baktria - Baktra
console_command create_building Baktra army_barracks_K1
console_command create_building Baktra sewers
console_command create_building Baktra roads
;Sogdiane - Marakanda
console_command create_building Marakanda muster_field_K
console_command create_building Marakanda roads
;Dayuan - Alexandreia_Eschate

console_command create_building Alexandreia_Eschate muster_field_K
console_command create_building Alexandreia_Eschate muster_field_X

;Iberia
;Lusitania - Oxtraca
console_command create_building Oxtraca army_barracks_F1

;Celtiberia - Numantia

console_command create_building Numantia militia_barracks_F1

;Epeiros
;Epeiros - Apollonia
console_command create_building Apollonia army_barracks_I1
;Kalabria - Taras
console_command create_building Taras city_barracks_I1
console_command create_building Taras roads
;Illyria_Hellenike - Epidamnos
console_command create_building Epidamnos muster_field_I

5 - It is done then :san_grin:

[konny]

And Konny is right on this - as far as Sparta is concerned we must not tight it to core building's - unless we use Royal for KH in Sparta at the start and then we can make it work - but, really, this was not the case then I think..

Yes, and of course you can't stop with Sparta.

For example Makedonia must be able to raise Hetairoi (or build the MIC that would make them recruitable) up from the size it starts with - in particular because Pella will be very much emptied in the first years of the game.

Rome must be able to field Equites Extraordinarii outside Latium, resp. build a Level 5 MIC there, with the town levels it starts with, or will reach after a few years.

The Celts should be able to get Brihentin somehow without having hughe cities before.

etcpp.

You can do that for most of the factions that have elites that do not represent a later developed reform unit but traditional elites in a certain region. You can either leave everything at is and allow for MIC 5 or build MIC 5 in some provinces (in particular Sparte won't hurt much because appart from the Spartiates you won't get so much there). But you should not link MICs to town size because in a lot of cases the town size will not match with the military meaning of a town, in particular because every town has a different military meaning for each faction.

There is a reason why the EB recruitement system is as it is.

------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest the following:

Raise the quality of some starting armies, make sure that every faction has one level 3 MIC (two for AS, one East, one West) in a military important town and leave the rest of the recruitement system as it is.

[Maksimus]

MIC 3 are City barracks?.. Yes they are I think..

Well, that is already in C_sript vanilly EB :shrug:

If we make that for all faction's then the some Faction's would have no cahanges..:no:
It would also mean discrimination toward factions that were much more advanced in warfare (like Successor states) - In 'barb' world, MIC 3 is highly advanced level of army - in Hellenic world it is fairly medium.. I urge you to think about my post of ''C_scrip'' alterations on barracks issue.. I think that some tweak's could be done here but .. Successor's should Have Army in Capitols because Army barracks represent the unit's they used plenty in that time (and elite phalanx + cavalry).. But in the case of Empires like Egypt and Syria - Royal are correct and fiar at the least..:shrug: ... ..


:thinking2:

[Palasta]

Hi there

I finally installed RTW -> BI -> ALEX -> EB. Instructions on the first side of this thread are a little bit confusing. I hope i figured it out and did the right thing. Haven't played much yet, however, game works well so far. If the loading time has decreased then only in a slight way if at all, well, isn't much of importance for me. What matters is the increase of the A.I., yea :2thumbsup:. As i said, i only played about an hour, but e.g. the A.I. missile units were shooting at me, in all 3-4 battles and without hesitation. IMO one huge step.:beam: I don't know for sure, i think the battles run smoother at least it looks and feels better. Have to take a closer look at my settings, but they pretty much seem the same.

[konny]

Well, that is already in C_sript vanilly EB :shrug:

If we make that for all faction's then the some Faction's would have no cahanges..:no:
It would also mean discrimination toward factions that were much more advanced in warfare (like Successor states) - In 'barb' world, MIC 3 is highly advanced level of army - in Hellenic world it is fairly medium..

I remember that KH starts without, for example (or was that in 0.8?). I think there are others too (Pontos? Armenia? Baktria?).

With "make sure" I meant that this should be the minimum that all factions start with in one town (the capital city or another very important one). I didn't meant to level down existing higher barracks to level 3.

But I wouldn't go to 5 immediatly, that's for gameplay reasons. 3 gives you all the "units of the line" that made the core of these armies in 272 BC. Elites should be a matter of developement. In the early game this role is usually taken over by the FMs, who will be more governors in the later game and so make recruiting of elites by MICs more important.

The Barbarians would be no problem either because they are usually to poor to afford a lot of elites and most of them do need reforms anyway.

To do so would definitly require to raise the quality of the starting armies for several factions because the AI starts the game with pockets full of money and will use that money certainly to raise Petzhetairoi where it now comes along with Pantodapoi. You won't be able to fight this off with the crappy levies you now start with.

-----------------------

hmm.... Taking that into account the idea is probably not so good after all. The thing is that this would enforce another problem: money on turn #2. Many of the factoins are terribly broken allready by the starting armies. If these would be better units they will run even more into the minus. That again might mean that you won't see better units recruited at all to soon - may be even later than with the actual settings?

Another problem: The AI has now serious problems with the rebells in the early game because the rebells simply have the better units. Later the AI has the better units and is more often able to take these towns. That doesn't apply to the human player because on the tactical map is much easyer to take a settlement with just wooden walls than on autocalc.

Giving the AI the ability to train better units early in the game it might, and certainly will, use these to expand very fast and early into rebell territory - something that should not be.

[konny]

Settings shouldn't become changed by using another exe, I think. They are stored in the preference file.

[Lgk]

hmm.... Taking that into account the idea is probably not so good after all. The thing is that this would enforce another problem: money on turn #2. Many of the factoins are terribly broken allready by the starting armies. If these would be better units they will run even more into the minus. That again might mean that you won't see better units recruited at all to soon - may be even later than with the actual settings?
In case you missed :book: - fixed by "Lgk's money script" already :juggle2:

[Maksimus]

Konny is right, the settings should not be the problem (Still I suggest you 'tweak' your preferences the way you like:san_wink: )

There is one still, minor.. 'thing' - the camera wont auto move to your general (for example) if you double click it :wall: and then move your m-scroll:no:

That is *exe thing - you should not move your mouse while waithing camera to cross from one part of the map to another :san_grin:

[Maksimus]

With "make sure" I meant that this should be the minimum that all factions start with in one town (the capital city or another very important one). I didn't meant to level down existing higher barracks to level 3.

But I wouldn't go to 5 immediatly, that's for gameplay reasons. 3 gives you all the "units of the line" that made the core of these armies in 272 BC. Elites should be a matter of developement. In the early game this role is usually taken over by the FMs, who will be more governors in the later game and so make recruiting of elites by MICs more important.

I agree, but the only ones that have Royal are two strong empires - AS and Aegypt - like, befor AS had Royal in Antioch - he tended to loose it faster - this Way Aegypr really needs to drag some of it's best troops from Alexandria to get the AS capitol.. By now in EB vanilla - Egypt just use the troops from Sidon and WIN's :whip:


The Barbarians would be no problem either because they are usually to poor to afford a lot of elites and most of them do need reforms anyway.

Anyways - if you tested you will see AI uses like 10% and 15% top! Of elites even when he has Army barrack's :boxing: That brings dymanic and fun as well -- AND IT si very nice to see ONE ELITE PHALANX and one Hetairoi beside the general amnog 6 other natives - it looks like on ancient army that way - I am very happy when I see that kind of armies AI compose's.. He really makes it interesting (WHEN he has Army barrack's at the start)


To do so would definitly require to raise the quality of the starting armies for several factions because the AI starts the game with pockets full of money and will use that money certainly to raise Petzhetairoi where it now comes along with Pantodapoi. You won't be able to fight this off with the crappy levies you now start with.

We should raise the quality of starting armies for most factions also for Rebels in some settlement's if posible..:grin:


Giving the AI the ability to train better units early in the game it might, and certainly will, use these to expand very fast and early into rebell territory - something that should not be.

AI should be able to train even as 'SLAVE' ! - VERY IMPORTANT !

In EDB there are no recruit's for Slave-Rebel's - that is very very wrong.. A couple of units (or just one or two) should be recrutable in any (or at least Militia_barrack's) settlement's - For example - some important Rebel town's should not be easily taken anyway - like Pergammum, or.. India!?

It is no problem to make rebels train some unit's - it will bring the challenge and game dinamics - REALLY now - Honestly - I made those tweak's im my vanilla RTW - and Athens was able to hold the ground for 100 year's :san_wink: also Halicaransus and Syracusa.. that is very nice :yes:

[Maksimus]

Oh.. I forgot about this:

I think we should enable Armenia to recruit heavy Kingsmen Cavalry in Royal barrack's - this way it has no 'Heavy' cavalry worthy of war..:no:

What do you think? I can make it work quick - just Add one in DMB and in EDU, eunms... etc.. So Armenia has some kind of catapracts (Kingsmen like Hetario recruitment) - that should be right? right?
I always belived that Armenia had nice heavy cavalry?! But not in EB (unless the general guards) - I think we should make that happen?..:shrug:

Also a variation of officers in DMB, we can ask promission to use them from other mod's?

[Palasta]

Settings shouldn't become changed by using another exe, I think. They are stored in the preference file.

I did a complete de- and reinstallation (RTW -> BI -> ALEX -> EB).




That is *exe thing - you should not move your mouse while waithing camera to cross from one part of the map to another :san_grin:

Yes, noticed this one, isn't causing real trouble, just have to get fully used to it.

[Maksimus]

Also I would like suggestion's on ''descr_start.txt'' Personalities Of Faction's?:curtain:

[lt1956]

Are you using an EB folder or Alexander folder to install the mod?

Reason I asked is I didnt find much speed increase when testing SPQR with Alex.exe infact like BI I found when it has to look for the game in another folder it slows the overall campaign game. Of course EB is more complicated with the script but since SPQR is fast in campaign its a good reliable testing platform to judge speed. In theory its would be slow for SPQR and not EB.

I would suggest alot of tests by the EB team to be safe, as I found if you use the alexander folder settings like factions not attacking eachother work, but if you keep it in a mod folder like SPQR or EB it doesnt work.

Also as for AI to be honest I didnt see much improvement. There is a little, but very little. Naval invasion issue is caused from the AI not seeing the enemy when given the super faction trait the AI tends to do invasions of enemy lands. Atleast in my tests, this was in RTW 1.5

I am glad you are working on these things, I had the same issue with Battles not working right and some other issues. None of the BI formations are in Alex. but I do believe all the RTW ones are. I would be cautious though as I found CA breaks things that worked before in each patch. So it only stands to reason something is broke in Alex even if you cant spot it yet, could be simple as the Heat attributes not working or a charge etc.

Lt_1956

[Maksimus]

Are you using an EB folder or Alexander folder to install the mod?

Reason I asked is I didnt find much speed increase when testing SPQR with Alex.exe infact like BI I found when it has to look for the game in another folder it slows the overall campaign game. Of course EB is more complicated with the script but since SPQR is fast in campaign its a good reliable testing platform to judge speed. In theory its would be slow for SPQR and not EB.

I would suggest alot of tests by the EB team to be safe, as I found if you use the alexander folder settings like factions not attacking eachother work, but if you keep it in a mod folder like SPQR or EB it doesnt work.

Also as for AI to be honest I didnt see much improvement. There is a little, but very little. Naval invasion issue is caused from the AI not seeing the enemy when given the super faction trait the AI tends to do invasions of enemy lands. Atleast in my tests, this was in RTW 1.5

I am glad you are working on these things, I had the same issue with Battles not working right and some other issues. None of the BI formations are in Alex. but I do believe all the RTW ones are. I would be cautious though as I found CA breaks things that worked before in each patch. So it only stands to reason something is broke in Alex even if you cant spot it yet, could be simple as the Heat attributes not working or a charge etc.

Lt_1956

Well, the mod thread is in sub-forum, but.. anyways :san_wink:

I will answer all, :san_grin:

1-We use EB folder only - and in this case (this thread case) we are just speaking about ALX engine on EB and updating a guide for ALX.exe use on EB 1 - so player's can use EB and enjoy more, more stable and smarter engine - so there is no mod still :no:

2-I never really played SPQR (do I have it and I have installed it in a custom folder to see all .) so I just can't comment much. Still, let me say a word about speed. - If one game that is RTW based is already fast - how can you test that it is even more faster? I mean, I know you can see it - but maybe your default AI speed in SPQR is already at max or close to vanilla speed?:shrug:

3- Well EB team does not support use of ALX.exe on EB officially, do many EB members are supporting us on moral basis :curtain:


Ok, The point is the TARGET line of EB.exe we use in Step II - so anything from ALX work's perfectly on EB. The factions not attacking eachother works and it is tested already. For example - We make Seleucid's not to attack Armenia, and, they don't - but! If Armenia attacks AS - then they are at war.

Now,
Because AS would focus in it's campaign to fight ALL exept Aegypt (which makes them loose the capital as early as after 10 turn's and mostly ALWAYS), we made 'never in war' enabled for Pontus-AS, and AS-Armenia - that means vice versa!
This helps 100% ! ..Like, idea is made so AS wont attack: Baktria, Pahlava, Pontos and Armenia - but only Pontos and Armenia are set 'not' to attack AS (because of the Ptolomy expansion!), Baktria and Pahlava can attack AS when they want - but that will start a war, AS will 'never' attack first against those faction's that are set as 'ai_not_attack'.
This made AS last more in Syria, and made AI drag the army from the Eastern to the Western part of AS empire..
Still, Eventually - Egypt always win's (no matter what we set) so Pontos and Armenia don't have to loos their troops against AS that is in the mud already - they should wait for Egypt to some close and then they will attack him!


I don't want to oppose you here :no: It's just that we have tested ALX on EB 1 (that is pushing the RTW engine to it's limit's) and there we saw ALX.exe as advanced.. much more advanced engine than BI and certainly more advanced then RTW, the speed is increased 30-40% that depends on your PC:shrug: .. The AI turn's are faster, the AI groups more and he is expanding with greater pace, Diplomacy is advanced, AI campaign strategy is advanced, AI retreins units all the time and all atrubutes are working fine as far as I can see..

The 'AlexEBTeam' will make balance mods and will support EB on BI,RTW and ALX *exe's!

And thank you for your support - try ALX with EB :san_wink:

[lt1956]

Thinki about this what must be causing the increase for EB players is the script. So by Alex.exe having a Better seek ability it would increase the game for EB players, where as it would be slower for normal low script or non script Mods. Like I said for SPQR I noticed a decrease in speed but then again SPQR is really really fast. Some say faster than Vanilla.

This would mean that EB would have to be pretty slow to notice an increase of that level. Its been a while since I was on the EB team and back then it was in Alpha state. I was one of the people that Felt the script should not be too much, but it looks like going to Alex may be the better choice.

How does the team feel about this? If there is that much of an improvement, it can only enhance that great mod for the players?

[Ymarsakar]

The EBBS script is about 11 megs now. Cutting it down to 6.5 megs for me increased the turn speed by 50-100%.

[Danest]

Pages and pages and pages of writing on this topic. So I bet it's been answered but I haven't found it in the book that's been written here. These are instructions for RTW+BI+ALEX+EB. So will the game run without BI, but all of the others? I can't figure out which fixes and edits are just for BI, and which are for Alex without BI, if there is such a thing. ;)

[konny]

BI has nothing to do with it. Some (originaly) BI-features, such as night battles, can be used with the ALX.exe because they are part of the ALX code.

[Maksimus]

Pages and pages and pages of writing on this topic. So I bet it's been answered but I haven't found it in the book that's been written here. These are instructions for RTW+BI+ALEX+EB. So will the game run without BI, but all of the others? I can't figure out which fixes and edits are just for BI, and which are for Alex without BI, if there is such a thing. ;)
In the main post - BI.exe is suggested because there will be support from 'ALXEBTeam' on BI.exe too, so if you want tu use only ALX.exe you don't need BI :no:

[Maksimus]

Thinki about this what must be causing the increase for EB players is the script. So by Alex.exe having a Better seek ability it would increase the game for EB players, where as it would be slower for normal low script or non script Mods. Like I said for SPQR I noticed a decrease in speed but then again SPQR is really really fast. Some say faster than Vanilla.

This would mean that EB would have to be pretty slow to notice an increase of that level. Its been a while since I was on the EB team and back then it was in Alpha state. I was one of the people that Felt the script should not be too much, but it looks like going to Alex may be the better choice.

How does the team feel about this? If there is that much of an improvement, it can only enhance that great mod for the players?

As I mentioned - EB team has it's own reasons for not supporting ALX.exe:shrug:
I think it is mostly because most of the top EB team 'officials' don't have Alex at all (that is one info from EB team)

Do, 'AlexEBTeam' supports it and we will make it nice for all player's that want to use ALX.exe for EB :san_wink:

[Ymarsakar]

Which Alexander patch is recommended to install after Alexander? Or is no patch recommended?

[Palasta]

Which Alexander patch is recommended to install after Alexander? Or is no patch recommended?

No, no patch, 1.9 is final.

[Ymarsakar]

No, no patch, 1.9 is final.

Thanks.


Alex is 1.9 patch and the finall mark of RTW creators... so it is the best and that represents all the hard work of the CA and Activision!
It is just perfect for EB 1, and as you see it is easy to make it work !

Mak, you might want to change the line to "Alex is 1.9 final version" instead of 1.9 patch, since it gives a different meaning.

[Maksimus]

DOne:san_wink:

[Maksimus]

Ok, let us go with a Lite-lite version that will be uploaded before NewYear!

For these changes I only sugest:

1- ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' enabled as tested

2- ''NightBattleCapable 1'' enabled for couple of faction's (I suggest Stepe, German's and Saba, ok, and Briton's maybe and also Dacia) - that means that one general (or two for Stepe) would have ''NightBattleCapable 1'' added

3- What is that you don't like in ''C_script'' that is modified by barrack's issue by myself so we change it and finish it!

4- Adding Lgk's money script that is finished (or also to add Konny's work if it is finished - or make it optional, I think Lgk did not make Win_Condition's:shrug: )


Now - What could and may not be done in a few days!

5- Adding units at the start that will represent armies that would be there at that time (like more medium infantry) - all in C_script!

6- Adding ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' with +1 expirience to all of them

7- Adding ''export_descr_unit.txt'' that has modified Hit Point's for Horse Archers from 1,1 - 1,3, also that goes for Elephant's to 1,4 and to phalanx from 1,1-1,3 (and SShields 1,4) - This will only affect autocalculations :grin:

8- Originaly posted by LGK: '' Also with these HA improvements steppe factions personalities have to be changed back to "genghis". Well, maybe "henry" is still acceptable for Pahlava... but afaik even late settled parthians never used much infantry anyway, so same "genghis" can suit them better. Too bad we can't change personalities mid-game ''.

Any more?




What do you say?!

If you don't say anything I will make it work and upload it as BETA TEST! :boxing:

[MiniMe]

Maximus, mate. I need to ask you: how many EB campaigns so far are you through? By "through" I mean: victory conditions achieved.

[Ymarsakar]

I have just installed RTW, Alexander, and EB. In that order.

I've tested my Romani saved game's scroll speed with normal script and with a modified version of the EBBs script on Alexander.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96967

Alexander has a much smoother scroll in comparison, and the AI turn times, at the beginning with so many factions and stuff going on, is very noticeable on the new cut down EB background script. A drastic difference really.

As for regular Alexander speed increases with the normal 1.0 background script, I only saw a little of that. Course, I haven't been playing at EB's normal speed for awhile, so Alex would still seem very slow to me in comparison.

Btw, Maksimus, I was wondering whether the downloaded links for the Alexander conversion on your first post here contains the newest 1.0 permanent fixes bovi put up?

[Maksimus]

Everytime time Bovi makes a move I am on it :laugh4:

Last update that is included in ''the'' download links are ''Script fixes - Updated 2007-12-14''
That means I updated the download links on 15-12-2007 as you can see:curtain:

And I don't know what kind of ''modified version of the EBBs script'' you use or what is your PC coniguration :shrug:
Still, the point is, if you have a low-end PC (that means less then 2gigs of RAM and CPU that is not 64bit and some mainboard that is 'older') - you wont notice anything in term's of game speed :no:


Still, with a more powerfull machine - you get proportionaly 1,3 or 1,5 times faster EB on ALX.exe

It's just that test's are of no value if I test it on my PC - so I can't bring fact's here for your's or other's Personal Computer's :no:

[Maksimus]

None.
I don't play 'EB victory conditions' paths - they are not relevant for my gameplay as it is - I tend 'NOT' to role-play my faction. The ancient war's were not a scenario you had to follow so I don't like role-playing:no:

But If you want to see some of my campaign's you should look on these two thread's
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94993
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93151&page=5

Btw, I play and mod RTW for year's now, so I don't need to win with ALL or ANY faction's and then see what to do or what could be done better (even EB team doesn't do that.. they would never have so many of EBBS and other bugs if they have 'achived victory conditions' for all faction's before they set download links for EB 10) :coffeenews:

And you can adress me as - друг

[MiniMe]

And you can adress me as - друг
:2thumbsup: I appreciate that :yes:

Maksimus, my opinion is that EB differs greatly from other mods. Even the best of the rest (I mean RTR) however good it is, besides graphics and unit textures is currently on different level.

Me thinks EB is a very balanced mod with a good set of rules and principles that need minor and very careful adjustment. And it seems that you, my friend, just didn't had enough time to feel EB full richness.

That is why I ask you to take your time and without further rush enjoy it. It is a very fragile structure and by implementing zillion of changes immediately there is a chance that we could ruin it all (I was completely surprised, BTW, to see your latest idea of raising mercs experience by one. Where did that came from, I wonder? And how this should improve the mod? And the main question: why are you so sure that current mercs are not good enough?)

Friend, we have all the time in the world to experiment. I'm playing my latest campaign for the last month and I will gladly continue to do so (even though I've already achieved victory conditions) as long as 1.1. is not coming out.

Please, don't rush :yes:
Cheers

[Maksimus]

:2thumbsup: I appreciate that :yes:

Maksimus, my opinion is that EB differs greatly from other mods. Even the best of the rest (I mean RTR) however good it is, besides graphics and unit textures is currently on different level.

Me thinks EB is a very balanced mod with a good set of rules and principles that need minor and very careful adjustment. And it seems that you, my friend, just didn't had enough time to feel EB full richness.

That is why I ask you to take your time and without further rush enjoy it. It is a very fragile structure and by implementing zillion of changes immediately there is a chance that we could ruin it all (I was completely surprised, BTW, to see your latest idea of raising mercs experience by one. Where did that came from, I wonder? And how this should improve the mod? And the main question: why are you so sure that current mercs are not good enough?)

Friend, we have all the time in the world to experiment. I'm playing my latest campaign for the last month and I will gladly continue to do so (even though I've already achieved victory conditions) as long as 1.1. is not coming out.

Please, don't rush :yes:
Cheers

The first time 'someone' (and me also in couple of threads) raised the question's of 'why' mercs don't have at least +1 experience due to their professional soldier service (very rare in the ancient world) - the first one that said 'YES' to that was Bovi! One EB team member, then there was also some other EB members that said 'it could be an option'. But then, only Foot came along and said 'We wont do that because it imbalance's the game'

And if you have a situation where you can recruit your 'green' unit's that can have +2 experience and +2 or +4 morale bonuses somewhere - you unbalance the game too.. see? Current mercs are good enough when there are no bonuses for other unit's neither, but if you have a situation that some 'very famous' mercs (like ones Alexander used alot) have no experience bonus - you have one discrimination that aims to make mercs weaker than they were:ballchain:

EB is the best mod for me. He is also very balanced mod with a good set of rules and principles that need very careful adjustment. And you must know that for example (again:curtain: ) City Mod is made and supported by EB team because 'many' EB player's don't agree with 'all' EB vanilla balance:wall:

Anyway's - You know there will be one "AlexanderEBLite" mod (ALEM) that would have minor changes (obviously you and Konny support that)!
And there will also be 'Extended Alexander EB mod' (EAEM) that will have major changes (some that are not in line of EB stream - and this is supported by myself and Lgk.)!

Note that (EAEM) will be support EB player's on any *exe (that means they will work on RTW.exe, BI.exe and ALX.exe based EB games)

These changes that are suggested to take place 'are minor and very careful adjusted'. And they will surely go in ALEM. Let me review it:

1- ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' enabled as tested - This means that most of scripting is not relevant any more - that option is of more importance than ANYONE can imagine - it is so important that I am SURE EB team would support EB on ALX.exe if they could be sure 90% of EB fans have it (but they don't - so it wont happen)
2- ''NightBattleCapable 1'' enabled for couple of faction's (I suggest Stepe, German's and Saba, ok, and Briton's maybe and also Dacia) - that means that one general (or two for Stepe) would have ''NightBattleCapable 1'' added.
This should be in already! I had numerous PM's and question's 'why can't I play at night' - Well! It's because no general is set to use it in ''descr_start.txt'' - and that means you will have to waith to make one general as good as Pyrros so you can actually fight at night (which may take 20 turns).

3- What is that you don't like in ''C_script'' that is modified by barrack's issue by myself so we change it and finish it! This just add's to the gameplay and reality..
4- Adding Lgk's money script that is finished (or also to add Konny's work if it is finished - or make it optional, I think Lgk did not make Win_Condition's )
And this add's to the gamplay too - this script is wonderfull

Now - What could and may not be done in a few days!

5- Adding units at the start that will represent armies that would be there at that time (like more medium infantry) - all in C_script! This is already done by Konny and you I think :shrug:
6- Adding ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' with +1 expirience to all of them - this is due to gamplay
7- Adding ''export_descr_unit.txt'' that has modified Hit Point's for Horse Archers from 1,1 - 1,3, also that goes for Elephant's to 1,4 and to phalanx from 1,1-1,3 (and SShields 1,4) - This will only affect autocalculations - This will be in EB 11 for Horse Archers and maybe some other unit's
8- Originaly posted by LGK: '' Also with these HA improvements steppe factions personalities have to be changed back to "genghis". Well, maybe "henry" is still acceptable for Pahlava... but afaik even late settled parthians never used much infantry anyway, so same "genghis" can suit them better. Too bad we can't change personalities mid-game ''. And this i practical solution


These are mostly minor changes most of the player's wont notice at all (exept those that read this thread)...

And, you see,.. All mod's in development at the start make 'basic rules and figures' (like ones 'the cavalry was not as powerfull as in RTW vanilla' so they are very underpowered.. or Gaeste with 2Hit points ... or Elephant's that can be killed by a SINGLE peltst unit!).. that is how it is

[Lgk]

I agree with MiniMe that less changes is better, as long as they are enough. Even more, anything new should be tested one at a time. About balance - i'd like to see faction progression as historical as possible and all factions surviving at least until about 200 bce... that is, if human player also follows history, otherwise AI factions should be strong enough to defend themselves.

Now to latest Maksimus arguments:

1. I'm still uneasy about using ai_not_attack_faction option because it looks like cheating and in ideal case needs another good portion of (already bloated) scripting. Methinks we should strive to get good result (AI progression) without using this option, and then implement it to have perfect result.

2. I suggest giving this trait to older generals only (most likely a faction leader), otherwise clever human will enjoy obvious advantage far too long in early game.

3. Not sure i understand that sentence... :) But i like extensive use of C_script in any case. :)

4. What you mean? Optional what? Konny's script is based on wrong ideas imo (sorry, konny) and can actually cause problems in the long run; and win_conditions are absolutely unrelated to any money scripting.

5. Ok, methinks (taking tougher alex rebels into account) it won't speed early ahistorical expansion much.

6. No big deal, let's try it.

7. Exact values are to be chosen and tested carefully! It's better to start conservative imo.
And don't forget that elephants' and chariots' extra hps do have effect on tactical battles as well. Though these units are ridiculously underpowered in EB imo (aggravated by the fact that AI can't use them well). I prefer 6 extra hps for elephants and 2 extra hps for chariots... plus additional bonus like power_charge and very_hardy (elephants only). Something like TWFanatic did. But well, fixing EDU in general is of course another story, there are other units having wrong stats.

8. Other factions personalities are also open field for experiments... but let's limit them to steppe factions only in this beta.

P.S. Hope i will have time to add these fear/hate traits to rebel generals in descr_strat in 2-3 days, so we can see if it does any good as well.

[Maksimus]

First I want to make one announcement ! ''RTR team'' leader ''MarcusCorneliusMarcellus'' PM gave 'AlexEBTEema' (us!) the permission to use any ''RTR'' art with a credit to RTR team !
''dvk901'' of ''Roma Surrectum'' will give premission for RS art If we PM ask for a specific thing, .. SPQR is still an option (I did not have any answers yet)

So this is wonderfull to know (for EAEM:curtain: )..

1. I think we should not use ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option unless it is the last option! But I doubt scripting can help here :no:. I'll give one example:
Egypt almost always wins over AS (and takes Antioh fast which was not the case!), after that he is in AMinor and win's even faster over Pontos (if he is not destroyed by AS until 220bc) and while he is wining over AS (boostinf it's advantage with his 'share' right), Egypt goes to Europe all the way to Crimea and Adriatic Sea! And nothing can stop him unless human plays against him from Greece or Asia Minor.

Now, I have tested 2 Casse 'end-turn' campaigns and I am 80% sure that no scripting can help if we have clear ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option enabled:shrug:

So these are my conclusion's that have been tested and posted 'HERE' as you had the chance to see it.

If we don't use ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' there will be more 'scripting' that would probably slow the game more and will never bring as clear results ad ''ai option'' does :shrug: - that is my opinion
I propose the following!

Note: have in mind that ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' reflect's only 'onesided' - that means if Pontos are not allowed to attack Armenia (while Armenia can attack Pontos), Pontos will fight and destroy Armenia if she attack's after some time ! So by adding ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' to Pontos aimed at Armenia - we only prolong peace ! We don't cheat :no: , Armenia will eventualy attack Pontos in the future - but Pontos will focus it's power on Asia Minor and Greece only (until Armenia hit's - only then he will fight - I have tested this alot) - which was the case in history :san_wink:

Note2:I have already tested the 'scripting' you can se down and It is very very very very nice.. I am amaized actually - the reasults are one thing no one could imagine :no: - it solves so much that the script is not needed in 50% of the cases:wall:

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_brutii - Baktria #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction romans_brutii, trader smith
ai_do_not_attack_faction pontus, parthia

This is set because Baktria is very often in the stepe - and it should be in AS territory and India - when this is set Pahlava and Saka Rauka can attack Baktria first and only then Baktria will move into the stepe's (but before this happens - and it wont happen fast - Baktria heads up to India and AS!

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### greek_cities - Koinon Hellenon #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction greek_cities, balanced smith
ai_do_not_attack_faction thrace

KH always beats Makedonia (if sometimes not only so fast in Pella) even with LGK's script! And this way - KH expansion is slower! ... It is amazing how KH stops in expansion to Epeiros that may be fighting hard in Italy. This way! - KH heads up to AsiaMinor and there KH can be suppressed. So, we leave Epeiros (that is much weaker oposing to KH) the ability to attack KH when he has his strenghts! After that KH will fight - but if it is in AMinor it can not win so fast - So we prolong the faction's life even more by this and in the mean time we enable Epeiros to stay a bit longer in Italy:grin:

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_scipii - Hayasdan #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction romans_scipii, fortified henry
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_julii

Armenia is set (by my opinion) not to attack AS because that makes it's life much longer, it makes AS concentrate on Aegypt and it makes Armenia spread in the Rebel neighborhood.. By this way - Armenia wait's Egypt to win over AS (while Egypt will not attack Armenia first) and then and only when Armenia becomes regional power - it wil attack Egypt (by this it will slow down much of Egypt).. the same goes for Pontos!

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### britons - Casse #########not that important
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction britons, trader mao
ai_do_not_attack_faction gauls, scythia
; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### carthage - Pontos #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction carthage, trader napoleon
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_julii, romans_scipii
The same goes as for Armenia, Pontos must develop and not being destroyed by AS fast .. and it should not waste it's time in Armenia - this way Pontos reaches as far as BYZANT and PERGAMMUM and only then it attacks Aegypt (that will not attack Pontos first - which make's faction's live more)

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### egypt - Karthadast #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction egypt, sailor caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction spain

In most of the cases Carthage win's over Spain and fight's in Gaul later - by that It can not focus on Italy and ROME - EVER. By adding this for Spain, Carthage will focus on Sicily adn WILL CROSS TO ITALY, and than reach as far as Rome and then loose :curtain: .. Iberia may attack Carthage anytime, but if it is not attacked by Karthadast - Iberia will spread in Rebel neighborhood most of the time!

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### romans_julii - Arche Seleukideia #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction romans_julii, balanced stalin
ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, parthia, saba, macedon

These various options enables 'base' of long-term development of MOST of the factions! This means that AS will not be the aggressor early in the game, and that IT WILL FOCUS ONLY on EGYPT! Leaving other (mentioned faciton's) in peace untill those factions (later in the game) attack AS - if AS is around! If AS is not alive then those will attack Aegypt as much stronger factions!

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### numidia - Ptolemaioi #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction numidia, religious caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction pontus, saba, egypt, parthia, romans_scipii, romans_brutii, carthage, thrace, greek_cities

The same as above for AS - Ptolemaioi are so strong that they really need to leave others to develop and wait to be attacked at the first place - AI expansion on ALX.exe is really much faster (and if we count the 'AS share' boost Egypt has - we are screwed:wall: ).. So - In my tests they ALWEYS RULE WITH THESE SETTINGS! It's just they have more probs if one, let us say Pontos Is developed all the way to Byzant (which would only be a dream if he could be attacked by AS and Egypt in the first place) - then Pontos will give up a hell of a resistance before it goes down! This is the same in cases ot any other faction that ARE NO MATCH to Egypt after he takes Anitoh and Babylon! - Think about this

; ---------------------------------------------------------
; ######### seleucide - SPQR (Romani) #########
; ---------------------------------------------------------

faction seleucid, balanced caesar
ai_do_not_attack_faction egypt

This will allow Carthage to make the first move and also it will disable Romanoi to expand more quckly (and If we count that Carthage wont attack Spain and will focus on Italy and North Africa - never on Egypt) we have then, one nice struggle for Italy!

The only vice versa ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' are in cases of AS-Pontos and Armenia-AS, this is really nice in the game - because AS will not spend time and money destroying those two - but will focus on Egypt 'ONLY' and even then Aegypt will win - but much much later in the game :shrug:
For me - this is close to some (not perfect) but very rational and nice result.

2. Giving this trait to older generals is fine:san_grin:

3. C_script should be moded much, I suggest to make Armenian FMember (if AI) much closer to Kotais and with the army that will allow him to take it from the start - that way we enable Armenia to expand more!

4. What can we do about Win_conditions? Konny made some progress there.

5. I know the army composition only for Hellenes and Stepe (from what I know form EB descriptions and some Historic notes fo battles! - Did you know that Pyrros had more quality Makedonians in his Army then Gonatas after he took Pella!).

6. OK ! :boxing:

7. I am for fixing Elephant's and other we find that have to be 'tweaked'. But You should work on that more! I am 90% postitve that HPoints for Phalanx are one of the main reason's KH wins alot and fast! I made Barbarian phalanx have HP 1,1 - to top 1,2, And hellenic phalanxes as from 1,2 - 1,3 (medium) and only 1,4 for Silver Shields. I also made 1,2 and 1,3 For HArchers (1,3 for Heavy Stepe cavalry that have arrows).

I also think that solution for ADDING as GENERAL UNIT to the Largest STONE throwers in Hellenic world is one very nice solution! We know that those persons that guided the siege's (as In Alexanders campaigns and later Demetriases) were so important that most Siege assaults HAD to wait those engineirs to come !


8. Ok, I think GENGHIS for Sarmatia, Pahlava and Saka, and HENRY maybe for Pahlava :shrug:

In 2-3 days I expect you to give me your impresions of EDU, maybe EDB (where I tweaked some bonuses mostly for buildings that did not had any) and Campaign_script.txt ... So I can use it to set up the BETA download link in a week!

[MiniMe]

The main reason why KH is so successful is the fact that their own barracks are scattered everywhere and they don't have to build them from zero, not to mention the fact half the world rebels to their unjust cause. And after marians they also have perfect longpike phalanx unit with very wide AOR and ruthlessly use it in large quantities ;-)

I sympatize LGK idea to add fractional hitpoints to horse archers and even think to imply it to all horsies (light horse-archers and horse scirmishers 1.2 HP, medium horsies 1.4 HP, heavy horsies like hetanks/kinsmen/molossons 1.6 HP, catanks 1.8 HP) but I'm compeletely against adding fractional hitpoints to infantry. Had countless autocalcs of infantry battles recently, everything is fine.

Siege engines were something absolutely uniqe in ancient world, more rare than elephants. Spawning them the way you suggest it will turn EB in vanilla.

[Maksimus]

The main reason why KH is so successful is the fact that their own barracks are scattered everywhere and they don't have to build them from zero, not to mention the fact half the world rebels to their cause. And after marians they also have perfect longpike phalanx unit with very wide AOR and ruthlessly use it in large quantities ;-).

If we want to make some serious balance (or somewhat 'some' balance) I suggest that ALL Heavy cavalry should be stronger +30% in and Medium and Lite +15% in EDU. This way - It is very unbalanced as EB team made cavalry - but adding HPoints to all cavalry is too much! Only HArchers need balance in ''Autocalc'' (I can even say that lancers and heavy cavalry are more powerfull in auto-resolve than in open battle:wall: )

Hit Point's to infantry are only needed for Phalanx - and only because I (and you I guess) can use 3-4 phalanx units to KILL 10-12 (I had made it work for Up to 16 !) non-phalanx infantry (if you angle them right) !

I too Had countless autocalcs of infantry battles before I figured this out, I even tested by playing with Macedon (verses KH) and Epeiros (verses Romanoi) - nothing was fine! I was loosing half of my army or the battle even
If I had WHOLE army of Phalanx against Romans of pure Hoplites (not to mention Spartans and Classic's - they beat the hell out of Elite phalanx and not to say some medium) -

So you see, I tought for 4 years the vanilla got it right (in this case EB) - but then I saw that chariot's are not right with HP, then Elephant's, then HArchers and Then After numbers of test's in EB (where KH has almost no phalanx - unlike RTW vanilla) I hav noticed that Autocalc's are ALWAYS on the SIDE of KH - NO matter when - Makedno's CAN't Take one Single KH city :no: -- Then I noticed that full stacks of hoplites are taking Pella that had 8 phalanx (4 SShields) and Gonatas! The same story is for Epeiros!

Epeiros can NEVER win over KH (at least I never SAW - EVER that Epeiros or Makedonia wins over KH in A SINGLE region! - that is only the case in Greece in the game * that kind of unbalance can only be seen in Syria:shrug: )

Do I really need to post pictures ?? That would mean I will have to loose some couple of hours on this, .. Is this so hard to belive? That phalanx is underpowered against 'non-phalanx' infantry?? Just imagine the situation you have to fight (as I had) against 6 rebel hoplites near Epeiros and you only have 3 phalanx i to use! If you go on open battle - you can't loose! But if you go Autocalc on Medium - you can never WIN! I urge you to think a bit - that is a common issue if you play 'phalanx' factions as I do :laugh4:


Siege engines were something absolutely uniqe in ancient world, more rare than elephants. Spawning them the way you suggest it will turn EB in vanilla.

No! You did not understand!:curtain: - I want to make 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege (that means for Royal Barracks 'big' siege equipment) and IF there is Academy in the town (or level 2 of it) - Plus I would make those siege 2-3 turns to built (And Siege engines were rare but only Genius Siege enginery were unique - Like Diades of Pella that made Heliopolis while besigeing Rhodos! .. Also, use of Stone Thrower's without a 'Character' that only knew how to make those tools is even worse! - belive me that is one very cool thing! )..We can make it cost even more! But, you see, as I have read about it - EB team made siege that expensive because they counted that 'You have to pay for some famous enginery' - but there is no engineir!?:no:

So I suggest only 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege in the Hellenic world or wider if you please :shrug:


note... pretty please? ~:mecry:

[MiniMe]

If we want to make some serious balance (or somewhat 'some' balance) I suggest that ALL Heavy cavalry should be stronger +30% in and Medium and Lite +15% in EDU. This way - It is very unbalanced as EB team made cavalry - but adding HPoints to all cavalry is too much! Only HArchers need balance in ''Autocalc'' (I can even say that lancers and heavy cavalry are more powerfull in auto-resolve than in open battle:wall: )

Quite the opposite - my opinion is that EB cavalry behaves very good in battles but sucks in autocalcs. Perhaps you need to get used to EB cavalry yet?


Hit Point's to infantry are only needed for Phalanx - and only because I (and you I guess) can use 3-4 phalanx units to KILL 10-12 (I had made it work for Up to 16 !) non-phalanx infantry (if you angle them right) !

I too Had countless autocalcs of infantry battles before I figured this out, I even tested by playing with Macedon (verses KH) and Epeiros (verses Romanoi) - nothing was fine! I was loosing half of my army or the battle even
If I had WHOLE army of Phalanx against Romans of pure Hoplites (not to mention Spartans and Classic's - they beat the hell out of Elite phalanx and not to say some medium) -

So you see, I tought for 4 years the vanilla got it right (in this case EB) - but then I saw that chariot's are not right with HP, then Elephant's, then HArchers and Then After numbers of test's in EB (where KH has almost no phalanx - unlike RTW vanilla) I hav noticed that Autocalc's are ALWAYS on the SIDE of KH - NO matter when - Makedno's CAN't Take one Single KH city :no: -- Then I noticed that full stacks of hoplites are taking Pella that had 8 phalanx (4 SShields) and Gonatas! The same story is for Epeiros!

Epeiros can NEVER win over KH (at least I never SAW - EVER that Epeiros or Makedonia wins over KH in A SINGLE region! - that is only the case in Greece in the game * that kind of unbalance can only be seen in Syria:shrug: )

Do I really need to post pictures ?? That would mean I will have to loose some couple of hours on this, .. Is this so hard to belive? That phalanx is underpowered against 'non-phalanx' infantry?? Just imagine the situation you have to fight (as I had) against 6 rebel hoplites near Epeiros and you only have 3 phalanx i to use! If you go on open battle - you can't loose! But if you go Autocalc on Medium - you can never WIN! I urge you to think a bit - that is a common issue if you play 'phalanx' factions as I do :laugh4:

now finally we got to something - you think that one unit of medium longpike phalanx should be able to beat two units of hoplites.
well, I'm afraid that we will never agree with you on this, cause methinx that
one unit of medium longpike phalanx should be able to deal with only one units of hoplites and be smacked by two units of hoplites.
And if you have difficulties in your campaign by trying to deal with 10 units of medium infantry with your five phalanx... well, may be it is not the game EDU that is unbalansed but your approach is wrong and you need more patiense?

and - FULL stacks of hoplites of course should take cities with only eight units against them. Medium phalanx sucks against hoplites on the walls.
and - Makedon does successfully takes some of KH cityes. I've seen them doing it.


No! You did not understand!:curtain: - I want to make 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege (that means for Royal Barracks 'big' siege equipment) and IF there is Academy in the town (or level 2 of it) - Plus I would make those siege 2-3 turns to built (And Siege engines were rare but only Genius Siege enginery were unique - Like Diades of Pella that made Heliopolis while besigeing Rhodos! .. Also, use of Stone Thrower's without a 'Character' that only knew how to make those tools is even worse! - belive me that is one very cool thing! )..We can make it cost even more! But, you see, as I have read about it - EB team made siege that expensive because they counted that 'You have to pay for some famous enginery' - but there is no engineir!?:no:
So I suggest only 'general_unit' for the LAST level of siege in the Hellenic world or wider if you please :shrug:
Ok then, agree with you on this.

[Maksimus]

Quite the opposite - my opinion is that EB cavalry behaves very good in battles but sucks in autocalcs. Perhaps you need to get used to EB cavalry yet?

If you are so sure that cavalry in EB is greatly underpowered in autocalc's.. then OK :shrug: I never use much cavalry in EB because it is greatly underpowerd in open battle by the opinions of many - but ok.. maybe that is - maybe right - but EB vanilla make's cavalry with little startegic function on the battlefield (like, you can't really use cavalry as Makedonian's used them in battles - like one separated 'family' on the battlefield - one that can break non-phalanx infantry (in EB that is only a gream - my Hetairoi can't win in a single charge even if the charge at the back of a non phalanx enemy infantry that is fighting my phalanx on Hard difficulty! - and if they win - the loose 30-50% of all unts! - THAT would mean that in EVERY battle 30-50% of nobles would DIE - NO .. :no: that was not the case)..


now finally we got to something - you think that one unit of medium longpike phalanx should be able to beat two units of hoplites.
well, I'm afraid that we will never agree with you on this, cause methinx that
one unit of medium longpike phalanx should be able to deal with only one units of hoplites and be smacked by two units of hoplites.
And if you have difficulties in your campaign by trying to deal with 10 units of medium infantry with your five phalanx... well, may be it is not the game EDU that is unbalansed but your approach is wrong and you need more patiense?

MiniMe - if you followed my 'links' to 'MY' campaigns - you could see that I don't have problem's in wining and that I have all the patiense in South East Europe there can be.. SO, if you haven't followed those links I will post a part of that.

I have destroyed Romanoi with EPEIROS on VH/VH in 269 bc (PLUS I DID not turn the EBBS on once I think ) and that was on EB 10 - PURE VANILLA

This is the finall battle against Romans.. I had one Heroic infront of Rome :boxing:
https://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4914/battleofromecz6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1504/rome1lm3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6914/romefinall2ot2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
And the end of the battle (fought without time limit fo 1 hour)
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6043/20686106na3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

And I only made it because I had some phalanx! Only because Phalanx are of much, much, much more use on the open battle than ANY other infantry..

And I am not saying that ONE phalanx can beat TWO unit's of hoplites..

I am saying that '' I '' and ANYONE that KNOW's how to use phalanx need's only 4 (or 6 top's) phalanx to kill as much as 16 hoplites units that are led by the AI (the poin is - you angle them right !) .. Like Alexnader did..?? He often defended his phalanx flank's with Phalanx 'and' some infantry and cavalry..

So, you don't know how to use and win with 6 phalanx against 16 or 18 hoplites?? - you don't konw the trick? It's even better if you have 6 phalanx and 1 or 2 horse units..

Just don't tell me that I am the first one that told this to you ? :shrug:


and - FULL stacks of hoplites of course should take cities with only eight units against them. Medium phalanx sucks against hoplites on the walls.
and - Makedon does successfully takes some of KH cityes. I've seen them doing it.

Oh, that was MY bad - I ment full stack as 'full row' you know - the 'upper row' that is about 10 hopltes I think + KH general.. But Mak's had 8 phalanx and Gonatas (some were elite!) .. And if you are to defend that town - you will only need 6 phalanx to win.. (counting they don't take the town square :san_grin: )

And, dont misunderstand me - I am ready to give up all My ideas just for the team work.. really :yes:

But most of what this is about would not go into ALEM :no: - it would go into EAEM .. and only if Lgk say's - ok.. I don't pretend to be alone here :laugh4:

[MiniMe]

I know how to beat 12 hoplites with 6 phalanx ;-)
I consider situation when you can beat 18 hoplites with 6 phalanx, imbalansed. Phalanx are good unit but not supermen. I don't like superunits.

I consider your current attitude toward longpike units very biased upon your last "phalanx" campaign.
Let's see if you would change it after playing campaign of hoplites or principes against phalanx ;-)

And: EB EDU stats are for battles on Medium. I suggest you try it.
I've done RTR battles on VH. Piece of cake. This is not RTR, this stats system is totally different. Theirs is for VH/H. This is for M. Please, stop judging it before playing it the way it is supposed to be played :yes:

[Maksimus]

FROM: Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe - for MiniMe

Carthage will spread to Italy from Sicily when we add ''ai_do_not_attack'' for Carthage to Iberia and Rome to Carthage!

Logic in this argument is: Carthage now focuses on Sicily and North Africa mostly - they rarely fight against rebels in Spain - but if they don't have ''ai_do_not_attack'' limitations to Spain - they will group more there and will spend more money in Spain. But we need Carthage in Sicily where we want to see more Carthage vs Romans combat (especialy after they go into 'mainland' of Italy - you saw they are at the Roman door's)


If one thext is hard for you to read - you could just say so.. I really like this "Palatino Linotype" - do you really have a problem with that font and various colours I use? :shrug:

See, this was made according to ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction's. Rome set not to attack Carthage first - so he wait's Carthage to attack him first ! - Only then he fight's back! -
AND Carthage is set ''ai_do_not_attack'' Spain - in this test Carthage was attacked BY IBERIA and ONLY then Carthage took some Iberian TOWNS and now will probably take Spain! I don't know what comes next because I quited testing after Egypt came in EUROPE and destroyed AS!

Logic here is that Roman's will not 'destroy' Carthage in Sicily and Italy on sight! Think about it really.. My opinion to is that Carthage ways of expansion are fine - and they will only prolong the Iberia faction Life (which should remain alive as others until 200bc) - it there is no ''ai_do_not_attack'' limitation's for Spain - Cartahge would take all of Spain much faster (and we want faction's to be alive more:shrug: )

One very good thing with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option is that this option manly makes the game and small faction's last more - for example until those 'small' faction's destroy themselfs (by attacking a bigger faction that was untill that time ''ai_do_not_attack''-forced to keep the same small faction alive)..

In the case of AS/Pontos/Armenia ''ai_do_not_attack'' option is maybe the only thing that will keep them alive untill 200-150bc.. :shrug:


And MiniMe - I will post that in 2 day's top's with proofs of HP idea for phalanx and HArchers (but I say, this was tested on one Serbian forum 2 years ago - as a vanilla RTW tweak - it worked nice - it's just that at that time I did not belive it like you don't belive it now:wall: )


Key word in that part of my post was word "mutual". I want to see them both decline in the midgame not one of them rise to the state of freakin ancient USSR.

I think it can really be done by manipulating with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option, very little script and more army for AS in Syria - like those ''ai_do_not_attack'' option I have mentioned and explained above - that way AS will only fight Egypt (but we can make AS much stronger in Syria at the start) and Baktria will eventually go and take East part of AS Empire..

Well, if everyone would happily follow this option I would be forced to leave this forum course it will be impossible to read it

Sorry, do you mind If I use 'Palatino' and only black and blue?

Can we compromise друже :san_wink:

[Maksimus]

I know how to beat 12 hoplites with 6 phalanx ;-)
I consider situation when you can beat 18 hoplites with 6 phalanx, imbalansed. Phalanx are good unit but not supermen. I don't like superunits.

Ok I got you now!:laugh4: ... so you know as I do and as most of the player's that 6 phalanx (if angled well) can beat atleast - 12 (and ok.. if you have some elite you can take even 20 - I have done it really - but against AI - not human) ... But you know that WE can't win ever if we use autoclac - like 6 to 12 - never :no:

That is the point! - I suggest that we balance other (mostly cavalry Archery unit's) to even 1,6 HP.. but Barbarina phalanx could have (as I made it) 1,1 , native Hellenic phalanx 1,2 and medium and some elite phalanx 1,3 hp (by my opinion only SShields should have 1,4 hp of all infantry - like Celt's are already strong as in vanilla...)

I played Baktria against AS and I only had Cavalry - the same goes for Armenia.. I know how it is to play against phalanx - but it is much easier if you have open battles - then the phalanxes are 'all around' so you can easily flank them..

But becasue of that - autocalcs must be workinga as if the Human would play - That is the main reason we are going to change HArchers to + hp

Oh... and yes -- :wall:
I will use Medium from now on.. but you still saw the point - phalanx use is great even on VH/VH .. now imagine medium?

Do you know we have premission to use RTR art - I suggest more diversity of officers and more and more unit's in the future.. * What do you think??! :boxing:

[MiniMe]

I suggest you to take a look at "factions progress" tread. You'll see that Carthies in midgame and especially in lategame are always successful. I'm not worried about them at all! What I want is fair chances for AI-guided Romans. What I dream of is AI-Romans invasion of Africa


Sorry, do you mind If I use 'Palatino' and only black and blue?

Thank you very much =)


Can we compromise друже :san_wink:
We can and we should, друже :san_wink:
And if you think I moan too much... well, someone has to be critic when the rest is so creative and optimistic ~D



Do you know we have premission to use RTR art - I suggest more diversity of officers and more and more unit's in the future.. * What do you think??! :boxing:
I'm pretty happy with EB units actually and while RTR units are also good looking, their "shining" style doesn't match EB calm "pastel" style
Lets talk about it after we deal with immediate concerns, Ok?

[Maksimus]

I suggest you to take a look at "factions progress" tread. You'll see that Carthies in midgame and especially in lategame are always successful. I'm not worried about them at all! What I want is fair chances for AI-guided Romans. What I dream of is AI-Romans invasion of Africa

I was thinking about that for quite some time now.. And I suggest we make it na EVENT.. like at some year - if Roman's still have Rome - we spawn one or two full stack's of Roman army in Tunis and leave it be - That is also my tought for Hanibal in Italy..

Can this be done?

I hope we can make it work.. this way most of ancient history has no sence If Rome does not go into Africa..:shrug:

[MiniMe]

WOW! Now that's an Idea!
Lets call it "Scipio invasion project"
Conditions:
1. Rome at war with Carthage
2. Rome controls upper half of Italy
3. Carthage sieges rome towns in Italy
then
we create couple of good roman stacks with good generals exactly near the walls of Carthage and Utica
...
hmmm...
this sounds promising...

[Maksimus]

We should waith to hear Lgk's and Konny's comment's on this and then we could start to gain pace .. ( I am afraid Lgk wont like the ''ai_dont...'' option and such an extensive use of it in my proposal... But I just can see how do we 'script manipulate' more this way .. do we could spawn and spawn more and more armies - but that should be in cases of 'Scipio Project' not in Diadokhoi war's :wall:)

I must :Zzzz: now, I had a hard day and one exam yesterday.. one that made my brain 1% bigger :laugh4: .. It was really hard :whip:


Festina lente

[konny]

A lot of stuff. Let's sort

Scripted Roman invasion in Africa would be an absolute no for me. Please think it over in gameplay. When both factions are controlled by the AI one of the three things will happen:

1. Both factions will change their homelands with the Africans controlling Italy and the Italians controlling Africa. or
2. The Romans wouldn't do anything and just stand there, like Antigonos next to Athens or the Greek army on Crete. or
3. The Romans will try to reach their homelands. If they have some ships left they might use them, but most likely they'll use the landroute through Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, Thrakia and Illyria; becoming pinned or looped some on the way.

None of the above I am eager to see in a campaign. What would never happen is the Karthees sending ships to Italy to bring their army home.

ai_not_attack should be strictly limited to factions that have in the moment better to do than going on safari elsewhere. That would be AS should be forbidden to attack Pontos, Armenia and Baktria (and may be the rebells too). They should concentrate on the Ptolemaians. The three Greek factions should be forbidden to attack the rebells as long as the other two are active in the region.

That should prevent AS to start wars with everyone around while Egypt is eating up her lands, and it should prevent Makedonia and Epeiros from wasting their armies on the Balkans when the Greeks are gathering strong armies on the Theassalian border.

That would help those factions that always lose their war because of AI strategical stupidity. Everyone else should be allowed to do what ever the AI likes.

Changes to the unit stats would be no for me in most of the cases too. Maksimus, I can't see why the EB cavalry is underpowered. May be you are using it the wrong way or you have false ideas of what cavalry was able to do.

Alexander did not crush full enemy armies with just cavalry. At Issos he routed archers with Hetairoi and by this opened a gap in the enemy line through which his infantry could attack the enemy flank. At Gaugamela his horsemen had to fight on their own for just a short time until the infantry appeared on the scene and caused the enemy wing to rout. And this was always fought against light Persian forces not Phalanxis. That is nothing the EB cavalry can't do either.

On the other hand, discussing this with you (and this is not the first time) is pointless as long as you insit on playing on anything but the recommended M battle difficulty. Cavalry is very fragile in EB and giving the enemy extra points in defense and attack by difficulty level might make them useless.

I don't think that there is a Hoplites-Phalanx problem that makes KH always win the war in Greece. Certainly a human player can win with 6 units of Phalanx against 12 units of AI Hoplites without much problems. Just line them up in a long line on flat ground and the AI will throw its Hoplites one by one frontal against this wall. The same battle fought against a human player will certainly result in a crushing defeat for the Phalanx.

And don't forget that the Makedonia AI raises large numbers of Hoplites itself. I would say that about half of the "Phalanx-faction's" armies' heavy infantry are made up of Hoplitai Haploi for the first part of the game.

The reason why KH always wins in Greece is the strategic situation: KH can't do other than go for Makedonia, while the Maks are also under attack by Epeiros and do waste armies for attacking Serdike, Tylis and the like villages on the Balkans. Epeiros isn't doing so much at all. Most of the time they have full stacks sitting around the Adriatic coast, make occasionly raids on Pella and conquer Illyrian villages from time to time.

Just check the map for "Herioc Victory" markers of AI battles. I find them in Greece more often memoring a Makedonian victory than a Greek one, even though Greece is evidently winning the war.



4. What can we do about Win_conditions? Konny made some progress there.

Yep. The last version seems to be working very fine:

Rome didn't do so anything in the beginning, but now they have taken Segesta and Taras and are repeatingly attacking Rhegion.

Epeiros and Makedonia are keeping out of the Balkans (but KH is still winning).

Ptolemaioi basicly keeps away from the African rebell towns but focuses on AS (save for that stupid little army from Kyrene that thought it a good idea to attack me in Leptis). AS has not declared war on anybody.

Pontos went West, took Nikaia, Byzantion and now Tylis and is expanding along the Black Sea coast.

Baktria and Parthia destroyed Saka, but Baktria lost all former Saka provinces to rebellion short thereafter. Parthia has meanwhile attacked AS.


AI should be able to train even as 'SLAVE' ! - VERY IMPORTANT !

They can. I didn't know before but it is possible for the rebells to raise units, even though it is only doing so on rare occasions. Just check the towns in which all units have a chevron or two at the start, after some ten years you'll see new units without experince popping up in some of these towns.

[Maksimus]

First of all, I want to add that most of 'Extensive' changes will probably go into EAEM (so don't need to argue much:laugh4: )


Scripted Roman invasion in Africa would be an absolute no for me. Please think it over in gameplay. When both factions are controlled by the AI one of the three things will happen:

1. Both factions will change their homelands with the Africans controlling Italy and the Italians controlling Africa. or
2. The Romans wouldn't do anything and j
ust stand there, like Antigonos next to Athens or the Greek army on Crete. or
3. The Romans will try to reach their homelands. If they have some ships left they might use them, but most likely they'll use the landroute through Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, Thrakia and Illyria; becoming pinned or looped some on the way.

We should test it dearly! I understand what strange things happen I saw that alot - But I am for it to be tested - it's just that we need a way to be sure Roman's will what you say they will.. I know about Crete - but We should move that Greek Army to AsiaMinor or Sparta.


ai_not_attack should be strictly limited to factions that have in the moment better to do than going on safari elsewhere. That would be AS should be forbidden to attack Pontos, Armenia and Baktria (and may be the rebells too). They should concentrate on the Ptolemaians. The three Greek factions should be forbidden to attack the rebells as long as the other two are active in the region.

I used ''ai_not_attack'' option only in the scope of EB vanilla default set of wars.. So I did not change the War-conditions so one can attack ONLY one faction - like AS to attack only Egypt.. But it can be done easily - BUT we should not set faction's NOT attack rebels - because they will never attack them that way - ever :shrug:

Also KH was never-ever that strong as in EB vanilla (KH always wins) So might have to think about
---KH NOT attacking Makedonia first --- that will slow the KH expansion - Think about that it is one very nice solution to KH AI expansion !
That could also be done for Egypt verses AS !

At that time Makedonia and Epeiros 'made' the rules - so KH IS VERY owerpowered - if you Human does not play as Makedonia - then Makedonia should be strong enough to win in Greece - KH should never win by my opinion .. :no:


Changes to the unit stats would be no for me in most of the cases too. Maksimus, I can't see why the EB cavalry is underpowered. May be you are using it the wrong way or you have false ideas of what cavalry was able to do.

Most of units in EB 'can' be tweaked and will be for Extensive mod - I can only say that EB team are made up of people like us - So you should know that some VERY unbalanced unit's from EB 10 are going to be tweaked for EB 11 - so most of your remarks that EB is well balanced depends on EB version rather than on some stable 'ethic' (the best word I can figure). We know that they will try with HP for HArchers, that they are going to balance elephant's and maybe some more missle cavalry.. and not to say that Gaestae will be major redone!

Most of your comment's on unit stats are based on judgement that ''EB vanilla is ok with EDU balance'' - but it is most likely juste barely OK so EAEM with deal with it.

Again, most of all of that will be in EAEM - so you don't need to worry - MiniMe and I made debates that are not for ALEM - the version we all support, so If you are sceptical about cavalry, phalanxes and HArchers - I can't


On the other hand, discussing this with you (and this is not the first time) is pointless as long as you insit on playing on anything but the recommended M battle difficulty. Cavalry is very fragile in EB and giving the enemy extra points in defense and attack by difficulty level might make them useless.

Cavalry is just barely more stronger on Medium - yes! I play on Medium for some time now :san_grin:


I don't think that there is a Hoplites-Phalanx problem that makes KH always win the war in Greece. Certainly a human player can win with 6 units of Phalanx against 12 units of AI Hoplites without much problems. Just line them up in a long line on flat ground and the AI will throw its Hoplites one by one frontal against this wall. The same battle fought against a human player will certainly result in a crushing defeat for the Phalanx
There is a Hoplites-Phalanx problem and it it obvious but I don't suggest to add HP 2 or 3 for Phalanx - but just to 1,1 - 1,3 - that is not a big deal - I have already explained that hoplites loose always agains 'human' phalanx and we tend to make AI autocalcs close to HUMAN game - not AI..


And don't forget that the Makedonia AI raises large numbers of Hoplites itself. I would say that about half of the "Phalanx-faction's" armies' heavy infantry are made up of Hoplitai Haploi for the first part of the game.

That will be changed with some tweaks as for example ''Caesar'' troops personality that is much better than ''Stalin'' for Makedonia,
That does not change the fact phalanx is very underpowered in autocals against non-phalanx infantry (but that does not mean we will add 3 HP for phalanx elite but only 1,3 - that just slightly adds to phalanx)


Just check the map for "Herioc Victory" markers of AI battles. I find them in Greece more often memoring a Makedonian victory than a Greek one, even though Greece is evidently winning the war.

KH should NEVER win in Greece - the same is for Egypt in Syria..

And most of win onditions loose importance with ''ai_...'' options - they are far more easy to use and manipulate..

Ok, I will waith some more comments of your's - MiniMe's and Lgk's so we can make join agreement!

And marry Christmas Konny ! :san_wink:

[Ymarsakar]

k, thanks for the heads up. The Alexander siege AI is substantially improved, with the couple of sieges I've played. They try to outflank you from both sides of the town square now, as well as try to sneak siege engines near close to the walls then transverse the wall perimeter until they reach the other gate.

The spearmen also break their current attack and attack cavalry if cavalry is engaged in combat with them, setting up situations where the spearmen will chase my cavalry around if the first shock charge doesn't break the spearmen. The cavalry also tend to charge spearmen and infantry more, by pulling back and going back in. I haven't checked to see if they have the distance right, but the one unit of Baktrian hetairio cataphracts kept charging my levy spearmen.

[konny]

I know about Crete - but We should move that Greek Army to AsiaMinor or Sparta.

I have allready done so (the changed descr_start in the win conditions thread).


BUT we should not set faction's NOT attack rebels - because they will never attack them that way - ever

Why not? Just script them at war with the rebells as soon as they have achieved their goals.


Also KH was never-ever that strong as in EB vanilla (KH always wins) So might have to think about

I had campaigns in which Makedonia won, even though that's rare.


---KH NOT attacking Makedonia first --- that will slow the KH expansion - Think about that it is one very nice solution to KH AI expansion !
That could also be done for Egypt verses AS !

Do you want to trigger that KH does not attack Makedonia and that Ptolemaioi does not AS??


KH should never win by my opinion .. :no:

Why?


We know that they will try with HP for HArchers, that they are going to balance elephant's and maybe some more missle cavalry.. and not to say that Gaestae will be major redone!

1.5 HP for horse archers is not a big deal, if that really does not change their preformance on the tacitical map. The Gaesatae are fine when you just look at the single unit, but the factions that can raise them become overpowered when spamming this unit. That's the major problem with them. I had reduced their HP to 1.


Most of your comment's on unit stats are based on judgement that ''EB vanilla is ok with EDU balance'' - but it is most likely juste barely OK so EAEM with deal with it.

Again, most of all of that will be in EAEM - so you don't need to worry - MiniMe and I made debates that are not for ALEM - the version we all support, so If you are sceptical about cavalry, phalanxes and HArchers - I can't

I wish you two good luck in such far ranging changes like strengthening all cavalry by 30%, but don't count me in.


I have already explained that hoplites loose always agains 'human' phalanx and we tend to make AI autocalcs close to HUMAN game - not AI..

And I have allready explained that the human player will always win with Hoplites against phalanx. You can't change the stats of the units that the results of the autocalc battles between AI factions always have the same results that you have achieved in your recent Epeiros campaing. Of course, you can, but you shouldn't.


KH should NEVER win in Greece - the same is for Egypt in Syria..

Why?


And marry Christmas Konny ! :san_wink: [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Marry Christmas to your too.

[Maksimus]

Konny, scripting can do almost anything - it is not a wise solution alway's by my opinion - and + it add's to the script which is not that necessary .. Can you be sure that it will not mess up the game when we 'make script-wars' ??

If Lgk and MiniMe want to add more to the script - ok.. then it's ok - But ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option is much more simple and it wont slow down the game :no:

I would like try to add (ontop those already added) 'ai_do_not_attack_faction' option to ::

1-Egypt ''ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_julii'' (so he waits AS to attack first - in the mean time Aegypt could attack rebels we can add a bit in that region) - this will slow down Aegypt expansion but 'not' by adding more and more script. Offcourse, we must 'uncheck' the war's between them so this could take effect!

2-KH ''ai_do_not_attack_faction macedon'' (that will mean KH will wait Makedonia to attack it first), so this way we will have Makedonian dominion over South Greece!

In my opinion, KH should never win in Greece if 'human' does not use them because the were under Makedonian influence until Romans came.
Greece 200bc
https://img212.imageshack.us/img212/25/macedoniaandtheaegeanwolz2.png (https://imageshack.us)
:shrug:

And about phalanx verses hoplites issue,
* It is, I can vouch for it .. let say, 95% more likely you will win with 4 low-end phalanx against 8 hoplites than with 4 SPARTANS (or 4 KH generals) against 8 low-end phalanx, even on easy difficulty..
So human player can't win with Hoplites against phalanx if there is more the same number or 30% more phalanx in enemy army.

And the changes of EDU stats should results that autocalc battles end as 'MOST' players would end some hoplite vs phalanx battle - that is by wining with Phalanx against Hoplites even if there are less phalanx infantry (and even if you have low-end phalanx against KH generals).

So, by the phalanx 1,1 to 1,3 hp - we only 'tweak' the balance a 'bit' (it would affect the autocalc just a 'bit').

And thank you for best wishes for EAEM EDU tweaks :stwshame: We just want to balance some aspect's more.. Changes like strengthening all cavalry by 30% may not happen (but somethings as cavalry mass etc.. could be done) - And we wont count you in if you don't want to implement some new ideas.. Maybe you see them as wrong ideas - but I can't do anything about it :gah:

Those very extensive ideas will do for EAEM not ALEM we all work on,
Still have in mind that even some features you don't support will go through if the rest of us agree.. :ballchain:

Oh.. and, Orthodox Christmas is on 7 January 2008 :san_grin:

[konny]

Konny, scripting can do almost anything - it is not a wise solution alway's by my opinion - and + it add's to the script which is not that necessary .. Can you be sure that it will not mess up the game when we 'make script-wars' ??

Why should it?

On settlement turn start "Athens", "Sparta", "Pella" and "Apollonia", if controlled by Makedons, set Makedons at war with rebells. The same for KH and Epeiros. If any of these towns are controlled by rebells at any point all three will be at war with rebells.


1-Egypt ''ai_do_not_attack_faction romans_julii'' (so he waits AS to attack first - in the mean time Aegypt could attack rebels we can add a bit in that region) - this will slow down Aegypt expansion but 'not' by adding more and more script. Offcourse, we must 'uncheck' the war's between them so this could take effect!

You mean setting AS and Ptolemaioi at peace and forbidding Pt to attack AS?


2-KH ''ai_do_not_attack_faction macedon'' (that will mean KH will wait Makedonia to attack it first), so this way we will have Makedonian dominion over South Greece!

And KH is expected to do what instead? Taking all that into account you might find it more suitable to make KH Eleutheroi.


In my opinion, KH should never win in Greece if 'human' does not use them because the were under Makedonian influence until Romans came.
Greece 200bc
https://img212.imageshack.us/img212/25/macedoniaandtheaegeanwolz2.png (https://imageshack.us)


When you take a closer look at this map, you'll see that the regions that are controlled by KH in EB are exactly the regions that were not under Makedonian controll. And we certainly should not make any drastic changes to the game, like setting AS and Pt at peace or preventing KH from fighting her war with the Maks because of the situation in history that we had when the Romans appeared on the scene - who will never do so in EB if not run by the human player.



So human player can't win with Hoplites against phalanx if there is more the same number or 30% more phalanx in enemy army.

How many campaigns have you played with "Hoplites-factions" (KH, Karthago or the early Romans)? I am just curious because I usally win with Hoplites against Phalanx on the tactical map; provided I do not have to attack against serious odds uphill, or the enemy hasn't also a lot of excellent support units like heavy swordmen, Hetairoi etc, or other "irregularities" like that.

[MiniMe]

1.5 HP for horse archers is not a big deal, if that really does not change their preformance on the tacitical map.

Grim day, Konny. Please, see Lgk post in this tread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96714 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96714) it appears that hp he was talking about never were fractional but extra. and I don't think that multihitpoint horsies are a good idea.


I wish you two good luck in such far ranging changes like strengthening all cavalry by 30%, but don't count me in.

? misunderstanding. Me never was for something like this

BTW, do you have any thoughts on how to drag romans to Africa?
Cause even if "Scipion invasion" might be a very radical decision, who would not want to see someone finally dealing with Whites in their southern lair?

[Maksimus]

Ok, so I don't have to explain more about EDU hp issues

Now, konny, :square:

1-about 'script-wars' - ok! We should just waith for Lgk on this..

2-KH expansion.. We must supress KH much more because they are represented in EB vanilla as one very powerfull force they never ever were (compared to Makedonia or Epeiros for example - and I did not have A SINGLE campaign in which Makedonia won :no: ),

So I could agree (ok,) that (KH) should be in war against Makedonia but the pace of their expansion can only be explained as if some alien's came and destroyed Makedonian state - anything else is only one great 'unbalance'

But look at this! .. what do you think that we.. make..
One solution that may be like.. - we make KH ''ai_not.. bla bla'' Makedonia only If 'Human' does not play KH - this way KH wont expand it is not attacked by Makedonia and also it would not EVEN cross to Makedonian land - it may onnly go to Thermon and that is it (or maybe Epeir - but hardly)

This way we keep the balance and historic note in Greece:shrug:

Also, one more argument that is on the picture we see - KH - NEVER - ever moved from 272 - 200bc - ever (unless some minor holdings) and not to say into Makedonia:shrug: so , look at that solution I mentioned for 'Greek balance'


And yes - I think setting AS and Ptolemaioi at peace and forbidding Pt to attack AS would be one step in a right direction - AS will be forbited to attacks all it's neighborhood exept Egypt - so AS will eventually make one strong attack and we wil have 'balance' and some very interesting events :yes:

Oh.. and yes, I have played with Romans and KH (with KH more) but for about 20 turns maybe..:shrug: I just like Epeiros and Baktria and Makedonia more so I tend to play with them..
And let me tell you -- my arguments are NOT made up so they can suit my 'interest' - my only interest is 'historic' balance and making more factions alive later in the game ~:yin-yang:
Also, It is much - much harder to win phalanx with hoplites and it is much easier to win atucalc's with hoplite army against phalanx army.

Edit, I think we try the 'Scipio project' on EAEM - not on Lite,, ž
And MiniMe - Konny ment ME and LGK as the ones that want to cahange more and more.. not you ;)

[Lgk]

Calm down, people. I don't like when most of the time discussion goes about major changes that will have little effect (eg methinks scripted invasions aren't worth the effort, and these siege-engine-generals - is it THAT important?) or have nothing to do with Alex. I would rather stick to slight changes that will have huge effect on gameplay and campaign flow. As i said earlier, simple relocation of starting armies and FMs and a little building tweak here and there :juggle2: sometimes leads to drastic results and entirely different campaign. Let us concentrte now on lite mod that will address immediate probs introduced by alex AI difference! :whip:

As for ai_not_attack option, let me illustrate my point. Suppose we ordered AS not to attack its smaller neighbours. Now imagine Ptolies beating them into some distant map corner, and then comes Pahlava and beats Yellow Fever back to Egypt, separating AS from them. Now Parthians can duke with Ptolies in Syria for eternity, and AS will never have chances to backstab careless Pahlava. Unless of course we make another megabyte of scripting checking such odd situations. :book:

Note - i don't insist that things will turn this way, but it MAY happen. Or even worse - if, by any chance, two factions sign a ceasefire, won't it AGAIN prevent one of them attacking another - and live practically at opponent's mercy if they have worse position at the moment? I'm not sure if the appropriate flag is permanently set by alex engine AND stored in savegame. Who knows? :inquisitive:

P.S. Now you see that me definitely doesn't "want to change more and more" :laugh4:

[Maksimus]

Calm down, people. I don't like when most of the time discussion goes about major changes that will have little effect (eg methinks scripted invasions aren't worth the effort, and these siege-engine-generals - is it THAT important?) or have nothing to do with Alex. I would rather stick to slight changes that will have huge effect on gameplay and campaign flow. As i said earlier, simple relocation of starting armies and FMs and a little building tweak here and there :juggle2: sometimes leads to drastic results and entirely different campaign. Let us concentrte now on lite mod that will address immediate probs introduced by alex AI difference! :whip:

For Lite mod (ALEM) most of those discussions are not important at all.
So we should stick to Lite..


As for ai_not_attack option, let me illustrate my point. Suppose we ordered AS not to attack its smaller neighbours. Now imagine Ptolies beating them into some distant map corner, and then comes Pahlava and beats Yellow Fever back to Egypt, separating AS from them. Now Parthians can duke with Ptolies in Syria for eternity, and AS will never have chances to backstab careless Pahlava. Unless of course we make another megabyte of scripting checking such odd situations. :book:

But in that case it is very likely Pahlava would not skip AS in it's attack, and even more - by the time Pahlava attack Egypt - Pahlava is done! - there is no Pahlava.. (you know the share system Egypt uses - AS barracks :shrug: ..)


Note - i don't insist that things will turn this way, but it MAY happen. Or even worse - if, by any chance, two factions sign a ceasefire, won't it AGAIN prevent one of them attacking another - and live practically at opponent's mercy if they have worse position at the moment? I'm not sure if the appropriate flag is permanently set by alex engine AND stored in savegame. Who knows? :inquisitive:

I think I don't understand it much, but let me try..
''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' in couple of my tests is working good, because, I will refer to AS/Pahlava/Pontos/Armenia/Egypt/Baktria/Saba issues. Imagine:
1 - AS is set not to attack anyone exept Egypt - that means it drags the army from the East and attacks Rebels and only Aegypt
2 - Pontos/Armenia are set not to attack AS so they keep their ground and develop UNTIL Egypt (always) takes Syria and goes in AMinor
3 - Egypt is set not to attack the same faction's as AS - so when he/if he takes AS lands in Media - he is fragile. Then AI attacks him with Armenia and Pontos and Saba (as a rule almost)
4 - Baktria wont attack Pahlava and Saka so they go only into India and AS
5 - Pontos is set not to go into Armenia so he goes to AMinor
6 - All other factions are free to attack as they wish!

note: I have already said that ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' option only means that 'one' faction wont attack as first one - that does not mean it wont respond by destroying the faction that attacked it :no:
The only ones that hav 'mutual' no-attack are AS-pontos and AS-Armenia

Also, we can C_script it maybe so that when Human plays -''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' is used more among AI..

If you say no - than what do you propose...? how?

.. I am here :curtain:

[konny]

Grim day, Konny. Please, see Lgk post in this tread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96714 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96714) it appears that hp he was talking about never were fractional but extra. and I don't think that multihitpoint horsies are a good idea.

Yes, I have seen that. Seems like that idea has to be buried. Ok, it isn't so dramatic because I don't think that the steppe factions should rule the world in EB (if this would be a Migration Area mod things would be different).


misunderstanding. Me never was for something like this

I see. Misunderstanding.


BTW, do you have any thoughts on how to drag romans to Africa?
Cause even if "Scipion invasion" might be a very radical decision, who would not want to see someone finally dealing with Whites in their southern lair?

Like all things that we want to happen midgame: no way.

The AI is absolutly land-bound, save for those idiotic raids in BI. So, for an AI Rome Karthago might as well be in Central America, what makes it more likely for them to land in Yucatan than in Tunesia. Scripting these forces in doesn't do either because the AI needs to asign them a valid target, and chances are quite low that it will find that in the enemy town it is standing next to.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

2-KH expansion.. We must supress KH much more because they are represented in EB vanilla as one very powerfull force they never ever were (compared to Makedonia or Epeiros for example - and I did not have A SINGLE campaign in which Makedonia won

Useing victory conditions, the Mak main army next to Pella and the ALX.exe I had only one occasion (of about countless) in which Makedonia lost Pella. The longest game that I had played this way was until c. 240 BC.
-----------------------------------------------


As for ai_not_attack option, let me illustrate my point. Suppose we ordered AS not to attack its smaller neighbours. Now imagine Ptolies beating them into some distant map corner, and then comes Pahlava and beats Yellow Fever back to Egypt, separating AS from them. Now Parthians can duke with Ptolies in Syria for eternity, and AS will never have chances to backstab careless Pahlava. Unless of course we make another megabyte of scripting checking such odd situations.

Certainly we can't trigger every strange situation in by script because that would mean checking every town on the map for who controlls it. In a normal game Parthia will certainly move West as long as the bordering towns are still controlled by AS. Don't forgett that this command is working in one direction only: when you make AS not attack Parthia it is still possible, and will most likely happen, that Parthia attacks AS.

[Maksimus]

Ok, We must go on:

Lgk, Konny, MiniMe, I will now sum up issues that need to be addressed fast for the upcomming 'Beta ALEM' (lite 'AlexEBMod'):curtain:

I want you to address every issue one by one so we have a clear picture of what will be done and what will be tested !:dancinglock:

1) 'Scipio Project' (the spawned AI Roman invasion into North Africa) - address
2) 'Scripted War's' that could influence AI expansions - address
3) ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' - your opinions (Who, Why, How) - address
4) EDU Hit Point's tweaks for:
*Horse Archers - address
*Phalanx - address
*Elephants - address
*Chariots - address
*Other - address
5) Suppress Egypt early expansion - address
6) Suppress KH early expansion - address
7) Barracks Issue in CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
8) Walls Issue in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
9) Mines Issue in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
10) Army realocations in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
11) Army realocations (+to Dacia, Armenia and Pontos so they make moves) in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
12) ''NightBattleCapable 1'' traits in ''descr_strat.txt'' at the start - address
13) NEW start UNITS ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
14) + 1 expirience to all Mercs ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' - address
15) AI Faction characters (caesar, henry, stalin...) - address
16) Rebel faction Characters (spawn them?) - address
17) MY Siege suggestion https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96135&page=3 - address
18) EDB bonuses for some buildings that have none (like Academy and barracks and walls and smith) - address
19) Lgk's Money Script - address (not issued before)
20) Traits project - address (not issued before)
21) Adding +50% (or +100%) to resource values in ''descr_sm_resources.txt'' - address (not issued before)
22) Adding some DMB models so they can be added in ''descr_lbc_db.txt'' - address (not issued before)
23) Make diplomats more rare and available only after 'core level 2 or 3' - address (not issued before)
24) Add more issues to the list that are forgotten by me - address (not issued before)

PLEASE - taxative answer ALL one by one so it can be summed in a notebook:san_wink: !

[Lgk]

Seems like that idea has to be buried. Ok, it isn't so dramatic because I don't think that the steppe factions should rule the world in EB (if this would be a Migration Area mod things would be different).
You guys are hopeless. :laugh4: Return there and re-read end of thread attentively!
And hp bonus has to be enough for steppe factions to hold their ground, not become world rulers of course.


The AI is absolutly land-bound, save for those idiotic raids in BI.
I won't say so. Have not enough EB experience, but in XGM i often witness as Carthage succesfully reinvades Spain after losing ALL its settlements there, Rome grabs Corsica and Sardinia, Pontus often captures Rhodos, etc. And iirc Carthage even has no prefers_naval_invasions attribute in these campaigns!

Now, about ai_not_attack_faction. Please stop bombing me with these "it works one direction only" arguments, because it doesn't mean much! I ask again: what if such two factions sign a ceasefire? Isn't this option re-enacted in this case? And yes, we can't predict all possible situations, esp in the long run.

Considering Grey Death vs Yellow Fever issues... methinks in ideal case we should strive to recreate historical flow of things using subtle controls like faction_relationships and core_attitude, initial armies position and composition and initial ifrastructure, etc. Historically, internal troubles prevented both AS and PE from conquering each other and rest of the Middle East, rather than external threat. We can't recreate these things (except maybe adding wandering rebel stacks in Egypt and such). So, it's better to weaken PE at the start, and concentrate bulk of AS forces in Syria, and then make smaller kingdoms to gang on AS if it beats Egypt too much (either by scripting wars, or even better - making it happen natural way, by tweaking relationships). And in ideal case, AS should lose its eastern posessions, but keep Syria as long as possible.

And in any case we should avoid ugly things like:

The only ones that hav 'mutual' no-attack are AS-pontos and AS-Armenia
Armenia never was a friend of seleucids, a restless vassal at best, trying more than once to break with them. Neither was Pontos. And even famous alliance of Mithridates and Tigranes can't be represented as mutual Pontos-Armenia pact, it was never a sure thing to happen, esp in 3rd century bce.


Also, we can C_script it maybe so that when Human plays -''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' is used more among AI..
afaik it's allowed in descr_strat only

P.S. Will answer tomorrow on Maksimus' list

[Lgk]

Ok, here is my opinion. Note that on many occasions i chose to reply "not yet" only because Maksimus wants to release beta mod "before new year comes". But i don't think that early beta does any harm, as long as we keep number of changes to a reasonable minimum.

1) Never, methinks it's useless
2) Not yet, and probably not in the Lite mod
3) Not yet, and probably never (well, maybe optional in this beta only)
4) HArchers - 1,2 generic and 1,3 elites; 1,1 skirmisher elites like numidians
Elephants - 1,6 hp + power_charge + very_hardy, armor like TWFanatic mod (makes them worth the price)
Chariots - Cidainh 2,2 hp; Scythed 1,3 hp + power_charge (otherwise both are too fragile)
Phalanx - probably never, methinks we can weaken KH using other means
5) Yes, less infrastructure & troops; we can't achieve ok balance yet, but hey, that's beta!
6) Yes, greeks were opressed and devastated at @ time, so less infras and troops
7) Only those related to 5-6
8) see 7
9) see 7
10) (...and maybe in descr_strat) also see 11
11) Not sure if we can do it in time. I will explain later.
12) One oldest FM (usually faction leader) only
13) Not yet and see 11
14) Ok, methinks it's harmless enough
15) Steppe factions to genghis, others will need alot of testing
16) Not yet, and not in the Lite
17) I'd say not important at all, and definitely not in Lite
18) You mean small law bonus or something else?
19) Of course, :) maybe with a little tweak later
20) Hope i'll be able to do this in time :)
21) Not sure, let's postpone it
22) Definitely not in Lite, and probably never (who will do it anyway?)
23) Why?

[goolasso]

It is good but two problems:

no naval invasions as well as normal version;
many ctd after the wnd of turn, late in the game (Aedui, 220 bc).

[Maksimus]

Ok, here is my opinion. Note that on many occasions i chose to reply "not yet" only because Maksimus wants to release beta mod "before new year comes". But i don't think that early beta does any harm, as long as we keep number of changes to a reasonable minimum.

Since we lost 2 days already I think I am going to do much of Beta myself (according as this list say's)

1) Never, methinks it's useless - We could maybe test this in 2008
2) Not yet, and probably not in the Lite mod - fine by me
3) Not yet, and probably never (well, maybe optional in this beta only) - not fine by me (because we don't have time for testing anymore and it could be used very nice in cases of AS (to Pontos and Armenia) and Baktria (to Saka) and Carthage (to Iberia), also, 'ai_..bla bla' option is one of the ) 4) HArchers - 1,2 generic and 1,3 elites; 1,1 skirmisher elites like numidians
Elephants - 1,6 hp + power_charge + very_hardy, armor like TWFanatic mod (makes them worth the price)
Chariots - Cidainh 2,2 hp; Scythed 1,3 hp + power_charge (otherwise both are too fragile), Phalanx - probably never, methinks we can weaken KH using other means - can we 'try to' tweak 1,1 for low-end hellenic and barb phalanx and 1,2 for medium phalanx and 1,3 for elite phalanx, I am very very very very very positive (and I have tested it) that it is the right thing.. (In autocalc's - phalanx just looses less troops - like it would be the case.. - think it through again please:stwshame: )
5) Yes, less infrastructure & troops; we can't achieve ok balance yet, but hey, that's beta! - well less trops and nice barracks can solve this at the start6) Yes, greeks were opressed and devastated at @ time, so less infras and troops - less troops to KH - more troops to Makedonia in Corint
7) Only those related to 5-6 - I insist you look on the solutin of I proposed for capitols - see in ''Maxbeta''
8) see 7 - ''Maxbeta'' (I only propose it for some cities that have to hold their ground - like Pella or capitols)
9) see 7 - ''Maxbeta'' ( only propose them for Kotais, Pergam, Pella, Sidon)
10) (...and maybe in descr_strat) also see 11
11) Not sure if we can do it in time. I will explain later. - ''Maxbeta''
12) One oldest FM (usually faction leader) only - ok (will do it)
13) Not yet and see 11 - well, the only ones I would move are Aremnians more to Kotais (with+army) and Greek's from Crete to Sparta of AMinor)
14) Ok, methinks it's harmless enough - ok
15) Steppe factions to genghis, others will need alot of testing - Maybe caesar for Makedon?? or Epeir?
16) Not yet, and not in the Lite - ok
17) I'd say not important at all, and definitely not in Lite - ok.. :stwshame: but I think that the price is making it necessary18) You mean small law bonus or something else? - see ''Maxbeta''
19) Of course, :) maybe with a little tweak later - ok
20) Hope i'll be able to do this in time :) - ok
21) Not sure, let's postpone it - ok, still, one +50% would only add maybe.. in real count like only +10 - 15% of income
22) Definitely not in Lite, and probably never (who will do it anyway?) - I will do it, it is easy and I have had consultations in TWC23) Why? - well, we can leave it this way, It's just that in real ancient states - diplomats mostly (and often only) from the capital to any mission :shrug: -- diplomats were much more rere than Spy's or assassins - Diplomat's by my opinion need to worth much more and to be more rare :shrug:

note: ''Maxbeta'' does not include any of those 23 issues - it is for 'view' and 'descr_start.txt' - test :san_grin:

[Maksimus]

I think SEGA made no naval invasions for Alex.exe unfortunatly as well as in the normal version (BI.exe invasions are just a bad joke:wall: )

Have you installed all the fixes for EB 1?
The download link on the main post contains EB 1 fixes in files that are 'hit' by needed changes - not all fixes..:no:
You should go into EB subforum and see all the probs and fixes that Bovi put for download:shrug:

If that does not help - report and I will hunt some solutions :curtain:

EDIT: MY BAD - We just had some VERY NICE NAVAL use by the AI - LOOK at the main post!

[Lgk]

Ok Maksimus, i'll take look @ your "Maxbeta". But here is one thing that i must clear now:

I'm still opposing giving phalanx extra hps... methinks we rather have to address startegic situation in this case/ Btw, you are suggesting WAAAAY too big hp value, even "1,2" is too much for good melee unit - that's 3 hp in total, now you have armoured super-gaesatae for goodness sake! I'd give "1,2-1,3" to HArchers only because they're SO MUCH underpowered (compared to tac-battle performance), and aren't as sturdy as phalangites. And they never seem underpowerd in autocalc to me, so IF they are, then definitely NOT much anyway. Besides "human vs AI" autocalc results can't serve a proof for anything, "AI vs AI" only, and that way it's hard to prove something with mixed-troops factions like Macedon (unlike steppe factions always having alot of suspect troops).

[Maksimus]

and... 1,2(or1,1) for elite phalanx (and medium1,1?) :san_grin:


note:.. you should redo some of that EDU structure so I could know which other cavalry should have 1,1 (like numidians.. maybe Thracians .. anyone) - also, I was thinking of cutting the size of Gaesatae up to one half (so we respect their power given by the EB team but not the unit size that really makes them 'supermen')

also, you don't think (as I do :D) that cavalry should get more 'mass' (because of the charge) - as in the game they just charge and then 'stop' infront of enemy unit as if they hit a wall:wall:
also, in my test's where Hellenic and Stepe lancers got some + 50%(100% would be even better) of attack (like form 3 to 5 or from 4 to 6) - they did not get much of power so the only thing they do get is a 'bit' advance in the charge (that now kills just 30% more unit's in the first charge - offcourse, cavalry still fall's 'idioticly fast' as it is made default)

I wonder why Konny or MiniMe are not around now .. :wall:

:shrug:

[konny]

1) 'Scipio Project' (the spawned AI Roman invasion into North Africa) - address

No, won't work.


2) 'Scripted War's' that could influence AI expansions - address

Which one? Most of the factions that are bordering each other start the game at war. The smaller factions around AS should not be set at war with AS as long as they don't decide that it is time to split from big mama.

The scripted wars with KH vs. Pontos do not have any meaning because both factions will most likely make peace with each other instead of attacking each other. This part of the script can be deleted without damage to the gameplay.

The scripted war between Rome and Kart-Hadast doesn't really work either, because if the Roman attack on Messana failed (and it will when Rome is controlled by the AI) both tend to make peace, too. That should be changed that war breaks out as soon as the Romans controll Messana.

Thermon works fine (Epeiros vs. KH).

In any occasion in which we script a war in in which both factions are not bordering each other, they will most likely make peace. In any occasion in which two factions are bordering each other they will most likely be at war after some time; in particular if core attitude and victory conditions order them against each other.


3) ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' - your opinions (Who, Why, How) - address

Should be limited to factions that are always distracted by secondary targets and so loose their primary war.


4) EDU Hit Point's tweaks for:
*Horse Archers - address
*Phalanx - address
*Elephants - address
*Chariots - address
*Other - address

Haven't witnessed any problems with these units so far.


5) Suppress Egypt early expansion - address
6) Suppress KH early expansion - address

Strictly no. Factions should not be hindered to be successfull only because their historical counterpart wasn't. RTW works completly different than history, because there is no peace signed after a major battle.

After a battle the winner starts sieging and conquering enemy towns and by this creates an "expansion" that had hardly happened in history. And this is not limited to the AI: everytime you start a game with a faction different to Rome or Parthia the game will not follow any historical patterns. Or did you sit on your butt in your Epeiros campaign waiting to be swallowed by the Red Death?


7) Barracks Issue in CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
8) Walls Issue in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
9) Mines Issue in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address

Factions should be able to raise their core units in one town at game start. Everything else should be as it is, unless someone can point out a serious misbalance in one corner of the map.


10) Army realocations in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
13) NEW start UNITS ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address

I have allready done so for the Maks, KH, AS and Pt. I have tried with Rome but any changes didn't had any impact on AI behaviour. Another candidate would be Karthago. Everyone else is allready cared for by EB.


14) + 1 expirience to all Mercs ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' - address
12) ''NightBattleCapable 1'' traits in ''descr_strat.txt'' at the start - address

Yes (and the last one is ALX related, wow! :laugh4: )


11) Army realocations (+to Dacia, Armenia and Pontos so they make moves) in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address

Not necessary. These factions might or might not move with the armies they have. I do not belive that more will make a difference.


15) AI Faction characters (caesar, henry, stalin...) - address

Who?


16) Rebel faction Characters (spawn them?) - address

Do you mean in settlements? You should use the immortal trait instead.

Rebell spawning on the map is a different topic. For example I think the army near Numantia should be deleted or seriously nerfed, because it first of all kills the poor Lusotanns and not some greedy invader, like Rome or Karthago.

The re-spawning rebell armies in Central Europe should be disbaled too. They are first of all a problem for the AI, because the human player knows of them and will avoid these provinces.


18) EDB bonuses for some buildings that have none (like Academy and barracks and walls and smith) - address

hmm. All those buildings have a meaning and do not need to add boni that other buildings allready provide. Something different would be the "reduce distance to capital" bonus, that ASFAIK no building in EB provides (roads would be candidate).


19) Lgk's Money Script - address (not issued before)

Not for me, I allready have one and will do a new one.


20) Traits project - address (not issued before)

That is what? There are a lot things that have to be improved with the trait system; but I think this topic needs a project of its own.


21) Adding +50% (or +100%) to resource values in ''descr_sm_resources.txt'' - address (not issued before)

Trade, farming? Definitly worth testing.


22) Adding some DMB models so they can be added in ''descr_lbc_db.txt'' - address (not issued before)

When you have some, why not.


23) Make diplomats more rare and available only after 'core level 2 or 3' - address (not issued before)

Why?


24) Add more issues to the list that are forgotten by me - address (not issued before)

I am thinking of making some units available by other buildings than the barracks, without changing the AOR or the possiblities of the factions to raise units (also elites) in general. The units I was thinking of are:

- Hoplites (not Spartiatai). These represent an outdated type of local militia. It should be available in every Greek polis, but KH should more stick to Iphikratians, Thureophoroi and the like. So, when Hoplites are tied to, for example a level 3 town hall for KH they will be not so common in KH armies, because this would require an advandced town while everything else can be raised everywhere.

- Poeni Militia. Should be not so fast available for Karthago to prevent the White AI from spamming its army with this unit that was only meant for close home defense.

- Gaesatae. Should be tied to a level 3 temple or something like that. That would very much hinder the AI from spamming them without preventing it from raising other good units.

[Maksimus]

Ok, konny, just a few quick comments on some issues.. (I will be here in about 6 hours again)

About 'suprression' of KH and Egypt - the idea is not to 'work against them' but to make some factions around the last a 'bit' longer (in these cases Makedonia and AS, well, in case of Egypt - the whole world acctually :laugh4: ) - but the goal is not to make them 'weaker' - but 'more balanced' so that in 200bc AS still holds Syria (and Makedonia - Pella)

About Mines! - I followed your advice to add mines close to small faction's rebel regions so they could have a chance to advance (like - Sidon/Pontos, Kotais/Armenia, And maybe 'Big Prize' in two Indian cities :grin: - that would really make them more.. 'interesting to conquer':curtain:

'Scripted War's' should go in January 2008

EDU tweaks can be optional for players (and so should be everything exept ''descr_start and C_script'' - do someone would maybe only like to use ''NightBattleCapable 1'' :shrug: )

AI Faction characters: like ''genghis'' for stepe factions (saka, sarmatia, parthia).. ''caesar'' for maybe macedon and ''stalin'' for Epeiros, and ''mao'' to Egypt (or ''napoleon'' but not ''caesar'' as default - this way Egypt has much better bias then AS - and anyway, It is hard to belive that Aegypt raised much more heavy infantry than AS in that time period..)


And is there a possibility we make ONE EBBS script - like some compromises around??? But in 2008 - ok!?

And I think ''immortal'' trait can solve the problem of Rebel Generals - ok, that is in beta now :san_grin:

EDB bonuses can be tested further in 2008
More issues to the list that are forgotten by me - 2008
Or if you want I can add some right away - just say what and where - FAST :yes:

And Traits project - are ethnicity project for rebel generals so the have bonuses when fighting against some factions - like those in North Italy would have bonuses aganis Romans, and some in the Balkans - against Hellenes.. etc, it could be applied for human game too..

SEE here (Traits project examples) http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=136159

Oh.. yes, I forgot, I was thinking of adding some 'diversity' for officers from RTR - you know we have premission - but for units that don't have any officers maybe.. will see.. any suggestions??? :D

more in 6 hours

Tonight I will be testng much - very much :boxing:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

I think the army near Numantia should be deleted or seriously nerfed, because it first of all kills the poor Lusotanns and not some greedy invader, like Rome or Karthago.
I would condition it I_LocalFaction instead of removing. It was one hell of a pleasant surprise in my Lusotannan campaign; but I agree that the AI can't bear it. :yes:
.

[Lgk]

In all mine tests AI-controlled Lusotannan routinely capture Numantia circa 240-230 bce. I'd blame it on my money script. ;-) AI faction tend to be more cautious under Alex, accumulating more troops before they go on conquest, and often leave a lot of them to guard home territory (most typical example is Armenia). Such behaviour is likely to bankrupt small factions using original EB or konny's script.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
That's even better! :yes::yes:
.

[konny]

I would condition it I_LocalFaction instead of removing.

It should first of all not be in if Kart-Hadast is human. Sounds a bit odd, but I have it in my ongoing K-H campaign: After the Lusos had attacked Numantia they are more or less done for. The Numantians have moved on Lusotannian lands and butcher every army that the Browns send around.

The Lusotans don't have any army that can deal with this monster.

[Ymarsakar]

One of the ways I picked up one of those eastern barbarian provinces as Romani is because Epeiros did most of the hard work fighting off the constant rebel spawns. They took one of the towns as well, which made it much easier for me to take it from them.

[Maksimus]

I need fast comments about the ''command'' atribute !

What are your special units that should have some.. I would add it to some stepe elites (we know that when King Darius wanted to take control of the Stepes he wrote that (aside the fact that they were ''ghosts'') the Stepe people fight ''following'' and aroung the couple of the bravest in their tribes - and allways)..

And also do you think Hypaspist and/or 'some' other units (like that all factions have atleast one with 'command' atribute)

By now the only ones that have that atribute are:

Cidainh (celtic chariot cidainh bodyguards, celtic chariot cidainh), = britons, slave
Calawre (celtic infantry calawre), = britons, slave
Carnute Cingetos (celtic infantry carnute cingetos), = gauls, slave
Cwmyr (celtic infantry cwmyr), = gauls, britons, scythia, slave
Kluddargos (celtic infantry kluddargos) = britons, slave, gauls, scythia
Rycalawre (celtic infantry rycalawre) = britons, slave
Drwdae (celtic infantry drwdae) = gauls, scythia, britons, slave
Lugian Swordsmen (celtic infantry lugian) = britons, slave, gauls, scythia, germans, dacia

And the only explanation I got from an EB member was

''Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
It's mostly used for the Casse to simulate their style of fighting, which was based around small groups of 'Champions' who inspired nearby more run of the mill soldiers to hold out a bit longer. The command attribute just gives a small morale bonus to troops around that unit. If you look at your list you'll notice that only the Carnute Cingetos (who are druids effectively hence their morale boosting attribute) and the Lugian Swordsmen aren't troops from the British Isles.'' AND
Casse units are in fact weaker than most others, they're probably the most lightly armed and armored faction in the game (only the Sweboz can compete and they have other advantages).

''Why should we give the attribute to random successor units? They didn't fight in the style were representing at all and none of the Hellenistic historians, myself included, has seen any reason to make use of the command attribute for them.

In short, the answer I gave you is a good answer. If we were just tossing the attribute out to make units stronger than you'd have a point, but we're not, we're using it to simulate a particular style of fighting and the celtic historians in EB are pretty happy with it. If you'll notice Casse elites are fairly weak, and come in small units, their primary purpose is to shore up the morale of regular line infantry''.

That is not good for me, I think 'we should' 'Give away' a 'FEW' more 'command' atributes in EB EUD (SUGGEST) !

[Lgk]

Bad karma. You guys are rushing new ideas before testing the old ones. Only essential for beta!!

Maksimus, drop it now. Methinks only 1st cohorts deserve command attribute w/o question, other nations may have hero cults as well, but it doesn't mean these heroes were ever organized into distinct units, except chieftain (aka general) bodyguards. And it's not in scope of Lite mod anyway.

[Maksimus]

ok... :stwshame:
It's just that I would like to do more and more in this two days now..

Anyway's I can make one first cohort in a matter of minutes, I would use roman legion and only add an eagle and some + to value and to number (like in vanilla) ??

Oh.. and I got new's ..

Look how the cities look now..
(this is Antioh.. with test population composition)
https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4264/60155043vc6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6063/46111703ef3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6996/76767617ag4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6281/74642332wt8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9671/28817203hk7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6021/82735853ak2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3456/24313943nh2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

(the last one is a joke :D)
The idea is to make ethnic compositon of various factions, like Baktria would have even some Indian people in larger % then AS, that could have smaller % of black people, ... etc

[MiniMe]

me again

1) 'Scipio Project' (the spawned AI Roman invasion into North Africa) - address
Cancelled


2) 'Scripted War's' that could influence AI expansions - address
Delete all existing, please, they ain't worth it


3) ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' - your opinions (Who, Why, How) - address
This option is great for permanent alliance only. Do we know of any factions that loved each other that much? No.


4) EDU Hit Point's tweaks for:
*Horse Archers - address
*Phalanx - address
*Elephants - address
*Chariots - address
*Other - address
Small african species - leave it as it is (they are small and come in large quantities) + hardy
indian species - 6 HP + very_hardy.
no to power_charge. Have no idea what this is, elephants charge is devastating as it is and sends people to the moon.
bigger african species - big question. Did they really exist?
chariots - 2 HP
no HP tweaks for humies and horsies


5) Suppress Egypt early expansion - address
Giving them more "peaceful" AI personality - yes


6) Suppress KH early expansion - address
No, perhaps Makedon major start stack needs to be increased a little.


7) Barracks Issue in CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
Level 3 MIC in capitals only, AS with two level 3 MIC as the only exeption


8) Walls Issue in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
No changes


9) Mines Issue in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
Now what is wrong with those? no changes


10) Army realocations in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
No idea.


11) Army realocations (+to Dacia, Armenia and Pontos so they make moves) in ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
No.


12) ''NightBattleCapable 1'' traits in ''descr_strat.txt'' at the start - address
Ok and Ok for all factions to play use night battles


13) NEW start UNITS ''CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT'' - address
Only there where it is necessary for AI.


14) + 1 expirience to all Mercs ''DESCR_MERCENARIES.TXT'' - address
Ok


15) AI Faction characters (caesar, henry, stalin...) - address
Yes. Yellows and Greys need to be less agressive, nomads - more. Romans need "prefer sea invasions". List may continue and require separate tread.


16) Rebel faction Characters (spawn them?) - address
No idea. I don't care about them.


17) MY Siege suggestion https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96135&page=3 - address
No.


18) EDB bonuses for some buildings that have none (like Academy and barracks and walls and smith) - address
No. Being not happy with your cities at the beginning is the part of the gameplay, Maximus.


19) Lgk's Money Script - address (not issued before)
I shall wait for Konny new edition and then compare


20) Traits project - address (not issued before)
What exactly? Discussion on this requires separate tread.


21) Adding +50% (or +100%) to resource values in ''descr_sm_resources.txt'' - address (not issued before)
No. In mid and late campaign nobody has difficulties about those ;-)


22) Adding some DMB models so they can be added in ''descr_lbc_db.txt'' - address (not issued before)
Yes, if we are positive alex DMB limit exceeds rome DMB limit


23) Make diplomats more rare and available only after 'core level 2 or 3' - address (not issued before)
Will change nothing. Ahistorical - even village is capable to send a messenger to another village.

[konny]

That is not good for me, I think 'we should' 'Give away' a 'FEW' more 'command' atributes in EB EUD (SUGGEST) !


I don't think that we will ever be able to make a mod together. That is first of all because we have different oppinions what needs to be tweaked in EB and what is best as it is.

@ Maksimus, is there any part of EB that you do not want to change? For me EB is close to perfection and only needs some minor adjustements in regard of the preformance of the AI factions, some very few changes to some units to deal with problems arising from the AI spamming units that are meant to be rare, an workaround of the trait system to prevent from the spamming of contradictionary traits, and other the like minor changes like the short_pike atribute for Hoplites. When I go through your lists I have the impression that you want to change everything in a mod that has allready changed everything of RTW. And by this, I begin to question if EB is the right mod for you at all.

This ALX project was meant to make EB fit for the ALX.exe, but had lost its way somewhere between this how many pages.

I am out. I don't see the point in discussing every day ten new ideas that have nothing to do with this project and of which about 9 ideas are changes that I don't want to implement in my game. That is, I do not just don't want to spend time on making all these changes, I wouldn't even download this mod once it is finsihed.

[Maksimus]

Konny, I will comment;

I think that the biggest problem was your approach to this work - mainly because you belived that there will be some minor tweaks in a few days and that it is done, AND WE said that there will be ALEM ('AlexanderLiteEBMod') and EAEM ('ExtensiveAlexanderEBMod'),
the Misfortune is because I always asked questions and questions and questions about all I wanted to hear from you - but in most of the cases - it was About EAEM,

Anyway's, I like EB very much - but I think much of that part has to be tweaked.

If I may say - I am very sorry about your decision,

Still, the mod will live on,

@MiniMe, are you clear that most of what you are suggesting is just negation:shrug:

1-EDB bonuses for some buildings that have none (like Academy and barracks and walls and smith) are not about only law, but some trade, expirience.. It will be ok for the beta anyways
2-To Make diplomats more rare and available only after 'core level 2 or 3' was my idea that some important and rare figures such as diplomats are not sent from a village to a village but from one kingdom to another (as it is the case in EB) - anyways, I will drop it - ok
3- We have positive alex DMB limit that exceeds rome DMB limit - see the screens above (I have added women from RTW and figures from ALEX game - Indians)
4-Core units can not be build in City Barracks level (that is level 3) because it leaves most civilised factions underpowered (the barbs have clear advantage with level 3 mic - while hellenes don't)

[Lgk]

Small african species - leave it as it is (they are small and come in large quantities) + hardy
indian species - 6 HP + very_hardy.
no to power_charge. Have no idea what this is, elephants charge is devastating as it is and sends people to the moon.
bigger african species - big question. Did they really exist?
chariots - 2 HP
Power_charge extends time of charge bonus being applied, not the bonus itself (and is a real necessity for scythed chariots, if not elephants). And leaving 2 hp is way to little even for small beasts, otherwise they're slaughtered by just 1-2 volleys of javelins. Bigger africans exist in EB, so we have to address them as well. 6 hp is absolute minimum for any elephant - AI doesn't know how to use fragile shock units properly (human can always have a houserule of limiting his elephant corps).

There is another method to make beasts and chariots less vulnerable (adjusting the size), but it has its own problems like artillery becoming totally ineffective and such.


no HP tweaks for humies and horsies
...
Yellows and Greys need to be less agressive, nomads - more. Romans need "prefer sea invasions". List may continue and require separate tread.
Personalities have nothing to do with agressiveness, they're about buildings and troop types preference. To "make nomads more agressive" we need that HArchers hp tweak (which you stubbornly decline and fail to understand at all). To make factions less agressive there is no way other than crippling their initial infrastructure and armies and possibly move FMs around. Romans naval preference works good under BI; not sure about Alex, but it won't hurt anyway.


I am out. I don't see the point in discussing every day ten new ideas that have nothing to do with this project and of which about 9 ideas are changes that I don't want to implement in my game. That is, I do not just don't want to spend time on making all these changes, I wouldn't even download this mod once it is finsihed.
Oh, no! They killed konny!! :laugh4:
Maksimus, seriously, let's test all the edits one at a time whenever possible. If we implement too much, we'll never know which ones turned out to be essential, and which ones were useless and unnecessary. Purely cosmetic things like women in DMB are ok for extended mod though.

[MiniMe]

@lgk: lovely



4-Core units can not be build in City Barracks level (that is level 3) because it leaves most civilised factions underpowered (the barbs have clear advantage with level 3 mic - while hellenes don't)
Friend, your latest post confirms my recently stated judgement that you need more EB gameplay experience before you start modding it. Level 4 own MIC is essential for barbarians, not hellens. Hellens steamroll with level 3 own MIC. However, I feel that you'd be convinced in it only after you'd achieve it or see it yourself. Same goes for many other issues you feel necessary to raise.

Anyway, this discussion for various reasons (some of them previously addressed by me and some by other people) seems to descend to a state that I feel unable to support.

Once again, I thank you for your promotion of RomeTW-ALX.exe :yes:

[Maksimus]

You are out? No? Yes?

I don't understand anymore :shrug:

Anyways - when bete comes out (until the end of 31 dec2007) will you test it?

другови још увек?
Ти мој друг?:curtain:

[Perturabo]

Hi again Maksimus.

I have been playing EB under ALX for a while now. I strongly feel that Konny is correct to be honest. Making ALX compatible with EB (minimal crashes etc) should really be a priority. Personally I am very happy with the way most factions except AS and the Ptolies behave.
Fixing their MICS to be 'non compatible' would be all that is really needed along with perhaps some modifications to make rebels stronger. You have done a great job so far :2thumbsup: but please don't ruin it by trying to do too much that isn't really needed! To be honest if a lot of those changes came in I would seriously have to think about playing it myself.

The EB team have done an incredible job balancing the factions and creating realistic recruitment areas and balanced units and many of your proposed changes may well have disasterous effects on gameplay.
There is no need to create scripted invasions for example.. the AI Romans get everywhere too quickly as it is. Roman domination by 200BC? I don't think so (in reality), however this seems to happen very often in southern europe. I really like the way MICS work at present also with the level 1-4 setups working very nicely. I cannot but feel fiddling with them would result in much less immersive gameplay.

Obviously this is your show and you can do as you please, but it has such great potential it would be a shame to have to go back to RTW (BI is very poor).

Alternatively, create a 'ALX Lite' mod that only provided compatability for ALX and EB and none of the other proposed changes in addition? The garrison retraining feature makes it worthwhile by itself.

Cheers mate and keep up the good work.

[Maksimus]

Thank you for comments Perturabo :yes:

Still I must comment now so you can understand what this is all about:grin:
First of all - I would not call this my show only because I gathered up the team :shrug:
The point of this thread is to modd EB based on ALX.exe (and for EB 11 it will be on BI and RTW.exe)

Most of the tweaks that you think will ruin your game are ment for EAEM (Extended Alexander EB Mod) - that is not the 'Lite' one (ALEM) that is comming beta in a day or so..

So no need to worry (anyways if you want - I can tweak the files you prefer to play for you- if they are optional and small:yes: )

Tweaks that Konny was talking about are small 'optional' tweaks - that would not balance the game anymore than it is already (exept if you don't count any EBBS edits - which was not the case - editing and modding on EBBS can make the game much more unbalanced than in tweaking 'Campaign_script')

So by all means, I have a question of what is a small tweak for you? well? - Small tweaks are not 'small' always..

For example; ''Immortal 1'' trait (that will be in) is very important to keep rebel genereals alive so you can't take any rebel region easily after they die - but that does not balance the game much - it can only make it more interesting for 'some' battles.

Next; ''NightBattleCapable 1'' trait enables your generals to fight at night - but that you can manualy add in ''descr_start.txt'' (as I instructed the players in the ALX.exe engine post) for any general you like - so If 'we' add it to some - someone would not like it maybe :shrug:

And the Last is; ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'' command in ''descr_start.txt'' - Well, this command in 90% or all tests has NO sense on vanilla EB balanced for RTW.exe, the AI will not react well in any case if you don't move armies around and add some units where they are needed (like Syria for example)

So in all the cases - The same problems persist: Sick Egypt and KH expansions, Stepe factions destroyed very easily, Romans expand to North Italy very quickly etc..

So, the changes that should 'intend' to 'balance' the game are the ones that deal with those issues - But most of that (if not all) is in plan for 'Extensive Alexander EB Mod' - not Lite - but that does not mean we wont touch the C_script :(

Lite mod will be beta in a day or so and it will only contain only OPTIONAL *txt FILES !

1-'descr_strat.txt' and 'CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT' (that work as a whole)
2-'Tweaked EDU' with only hp tweaks to HArchers, Elephants, Chariots
3-Some new traits that enables the rebel generals to give more resistance to various attackers
2-'Tweaked EDB' that mainly adds small/and some bonuses to some buildings (mostly to the ones that have none)

Anyway, I would like you to test it for a day and then say that it is bad :shrug:

Ok?

[MiniMe]

You are out? No? Yes?
Yes, I'm out of discussions on anything else besides RomeTW-ALX.exe

Anyways - when bete comes out (until the end of 31 dec2007) will you test it?
I'm afraid I won't have time for it. Before 1.1 is out, I'm pretty happy with my Ptolemaioi campaign, though I've already achieved victory conditions. Late period with few really strong and overdeveloped empires is my favourite part and I strongly advocate you try it for youself sometimes

Ти мој друг?:curtain:
despite all the differences between our opinions on EB - sure :yes:

[Maksimus]

ок..

Still, you can always give it a Casse spin for a few turns : D

thank you, anyway, I will upload ''pure'' *txt files for the ones that only want to see ''nightBattleCapable 1'', ''Immortal 1'', ''ai_do_not_attack_faction'', and Lgk's money script , - this will be Liter then ALEM :laugh4:

Anyway, that will not change anything, more deeper alterations are needed for ALX.exe balance :shrug:

[Maksimus]

This is for LGK:
In the linky I posted to you .. you should balance the greece if you like by moving the spartans FLeader from Karia to Sparta (and by adding a few Spartan units in Greece)..

also, for testing use enabled ''Campaign_script''

;console_command toggle_perfect_spy

to

console_command toggle_perfect_spy
So you can follow the development of AI

will be here in 6 hours

[Mouzafphaerre]

It should first of all not be in if Kart-Hadast is human. Sounds a bit odd, but I have it in my ongoing K-H campaign: After the Lusos had attacked Numantia they are more or less done for. The Numantians have moved on Lusotannian lands and butcher every army that the Browns send around.

The Lusotans don't have any army that can deal with this monster.
.
They should spawn against/attack only the human player is what I mean.
.

[konny]

.
They should spawn against/attack only the human player is what I mean.
.

"Attack only" doesn't work, unfortuantly, because it starts wandering around in Spain and will most likely end up on Lusotannian lands. So, spawing should be limited to Lusos are the human faction, if any. I think it can be delated anyways because the human player, safe for his first game in this corner of the map, will most likely attack Numantia with two full stacks after allready controlling most of Spain and so won't have so much trouble with it.

[Maksimus]

We just can't go beta today, there were some unexpected traits bug's yesterday and now is to late to test :wall:

Anyway's - as a happy NEW year we made some new Loading Screens (beta stage)

alem beta ls.7z - 9.21MB (http://www.zshare.net/download/6055600e8227c9/)

Enjoj

note: these screens are made as a wish to promote the 'quotas' of EB, quoatas that are in the shadow of very detailed vanilla EB Loading Screens (which I like anyways)

Happy New Year My friends!:san_wink:

[Perturabo]

I've been doing a little modding myself on some minor files, and must say my respect for modders has gone up a lot (already had a massive respect for the EB team :egypt: ). An incredible amount of work involved in it all.
Looking forward to the final version, though the current ALX seems to work very nicely indeed, bar the CTD post battle.

[Maksimus]

Nah.. dont worry - I will upload 'pure' vanilla EB ''descr_start.txt'' for ones that don't want to use ALEM - The only tweaks in that *txt will be Traits and ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction and ''NightBattleCapabel 1'' for some older generals - so almost NO changes:square:

[Perturabo]

Are changes to the MIC for Selucia/Egyptos easy to do?
Pls note I only want to make them different from each other to prevent expansion, I am happy with everything else about the MICs at present.

I might try a bit more modding, the only problem with a lot of the work I have done is that when EB1.1 ships, if any changes to desc_settlements are made I will have more work on my hands.

I will give the full ALX mod a test when it first comes out anyway, as long as nothing too 'radical' has taken place :p

[MiniMe]

Nah.. dont worry - I will upload 'pure' vanilla EB ''descr_start.txt'' for ones that don't want to use ALEM - The only tweaks in that *txt will be Traits and ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction and ''NightBattleCapabel 1'' for some older generals - so almost NO changes:square:
Maksimus, actually these ARE radical changes and no square smiley could help hide this fact.
Adding ''ai_do_not_attack' option is not about transferring EB to RomeTW-ALX.exe it is about YOUR ideas about faction relations in ''descr_start.txt'' and thus belong to EAEM.
Remove it, please.

One more thing: I'm going to solve EB model sharing problem (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96920) for those who use RomeTW-ALX.exe. To do so, I will edit EB 1.1. descr_model_battle.txt and export_descr_untis.txt and devide such soldiers as hellenistic_infantry_pantodapoi_machimoi_taxeisphalangitai to separate soldiers hellenistic_infantry_pantodapoi and hellenistic_infantry_machimoi and hellenistic_infantry_taxeisphalangitai .
attention! image heavy
https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1008/clipboard03lx1.png
https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7008/clipboard04vm5.png

Methinks that perhaps it could be a good idea to finally start two separate treads in EB unofficial modding projects subforum
1. "Playing EB with RomeTW-ALX.exe";
2. "Maksimus Extended AlexanderEBmod"
and close this one cause further constructive dialogue here is impossible to continue due to the total mess it has turned to be
Cheers
MiniMe

[Maksimus]

MiniMe - you dont seem to understand what is in motion here

No one can stop you of making another 20 threads in 'EB unofficial modding projects subforum'

But:

1. "Playing EB with RomeTW-ALX.exe" IS DONE! See herehttps://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94861, that is ALL one needs to play EB with ALX.exe and it has over 167 downloads total.

2. "Maksimus Extended AlexanderEBmod" - Well, That is wrong, Because,
It is 'Alexander EB Team' - ''Extended AlexanderEBmod'' that Lgk and I are working on. And ALEM (Lite mod) is worked on very intensive basis for the last couple of days - so this is the right thread (+ Konny is out - so the left founders are Lgk and I - we don't have to ask you for premission but just an opinion on the mod, and you are very active on opinions so that is ok, What is not ok is to make some kind of attacks on me and Lgk because we are moding our mod:shrug: I think that is not very nice of you my friend)

And I will not open another thread - I had my PMs with MAAntonius and he was very clear that 'Alexander EB Team' should have ONE and ONLY thread in this subforum if we want to make EB minimod (supported by EB team) because we are not so powerfull to have a hidden forum :gah:

And one more note here:
Further constructive dialogue is possible to continue but not in the way of making simple negations and protests when you don't like something - I have already droped couple of my ideas (I strongly wanted) just so I can get along with the others and that is very positive!

This is not a mess - this is Alexander EB Team Mod thread discussion !

[Maksimus]

Are changes to the MIC for Selucia/Egyptos easy to do?
Pls note I only want to make them different from each other to prevent expansion, I am happy with everything else about the MICs at present.

I might try a bit more modding, the only problem with a lot of the work I have done is that when EB1.1 ships, if any changes to desc_settlements are made I will have more work on my hands.

I will give the full ALX mod a test when it first comes out anyway, as long as nothing too 'radical' has taken place :p

That is ok, you can test it and then tell us what you don't like - anyway, the ALEM beta will be out in a few days so you will see it
And no changes will be done to 'desc_settlements.txt' so don't worry, and oh, I have made simple First Cohorts for this beta!

https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7200/fcohortssu8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

And one more note, Perturabo - if you can find a simple solution for Egypt-AS expansion than you let us and EB team now :grin:

[Lgk]

"ai_do_not_attack" is going to be optional anyway, balance seems good enough even w/o it

[Maksimus]

That is right, after tests we will say it is ok and/or not, but anyone can make his choice :laugh4:

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

Just a question: is Egyptos still going to knock out Selucia in your light mod? or has it been balanced?

[Maksimus]

It has been balanced, also, some other things are balanced too.. Let us say that.. This beta is going to be very fine but official Lite is going to be even better

[Maksimus]

One small preview - The Indian generals (rebels) taken from ALX

https://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2069/indian1gn6.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img258.imageshack.us/img258/969/indian2wg7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9194/indian3je5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Also, Pyrrhos Beta! (Alexander model)

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4463/pyrrhos1zu0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7764/pyrrhos2jm7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2814/pyrrhos3ze8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3168/pyrrhos4dg9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9747/pyrrhos5ld5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

The same destiny will go for most of the generals in ALEM beta (where RTR hellenic generals for rebels will be used, still, in full mod those will be re-texture from EB.)

:curtain:

[Darth Stalin]

OK, so I first try to use ALX.exe with my saved Roman campaign (well, I'll try to add "Immortal" trait to the trait files, at the end of the appropriate sections/files to avoid messing up the traits... and I'll see what will happen.
I suppose I'll wait to see ALX in its full capabilities when EB 1.1. is released, withn named first cohorts added and with all changes prepared by EB + ALX team.
Now I only have to install my Alexander - yet I have the "combo" Polish Platinum edition, including "three in one" - RTW, BI and ALX on one DVD - let's see whether this can be installed exactly where I order it to be installed...

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

That last one is going to be in the advance mod right?
There is no need for him to be in the light mod~:confused:

[Maksimus]

Well, It is beta, it's just that we are not sure how 'lite' Lite beta will be.. :shrug:
And we want reactions .. still I hope you like it :(

But don't worry, anything will be done carefull, still, it is a bit 'naive' (dont take it personal it has nothing to do with you :laugh4: ) to belive that there could be some 'simple' tweaks and make nice balance :wall:

And anyway, for 'very lite' users there will be some very simple *txt tweaks based on pure vanilla EB - but then we can not make much of guarantee that for example: Aegypt wont kill AS as early as 220bc

[MrMerisi]

Did Alexander make any changes to the way Hellenic phalanxes fight in the game? I mean specifically from an AI battle perspective, not from unit attributes as they should all be in the EB folder anyway, right?

Thanks!

[Maksimus]

There are many AI battle improvements, if you look at the post a bit you could see that various members are speaking of different battle improvements issues.. Like in the middle of the 'town battle' - AI will try to surraund you everytime he has enough army (that kicked my a** a couple of times :wall: .. because I was thinkig AI will never use smart moves during the siege or city defence, well, it proved me wrong)

And about the phalanx specially.. hmmm.. I does not break when there are two or more phalanx? I think that is improved and that it uses now more various angles to attacka another phalanx, also, in ALX CPU phalanx always hits for the infantry (it will not attack archers if infantry is around) + it attacks cavalry right away.. And AI does not spare you in battle - that is for sure one of the greatest AI battle improvements of ALX.exe:square:

[Tellos Athenaios]

EDIT: MY BAD - We just had some VERY NICE NAVAL use by the AI - LOOK at the main post!



Actually, that stuff (the Koinon shipping troops, the Qartadastim etc. etc.) occurs with nearly every faction that has it's priorities on mulitple land-masses so to speak.

You will see the Ptolemaioi do this, especially if the Seleukides are threatening enough (requires a human player most of the time); the Makedones might not do it because of the landbridges, but the Koinon will; the Qartadastim will. Right from the start.

I looked at the screenshots you posted and they're nothing new compared to plain RTW without any expansion packs.

Unless me is a very lucky player who consistently sees 'real naval invasions (tm)' being performed by AI factions.

[Maksimus]

I hardly ever saw the AI naval use in RTW (maybe I am wrong :shrug:).. Still, AI in the ALX game uses that option all the time, even Macedon it doing the same (from Lezbos to Demetrias :shrug: ).... Still, If I saw that AI uses the same thing the same way in RTW pure (and I think that it is possible so ok), still, I never saw and I think that It will never happen on RTW for AI to transport 6+ or 10+ units from Rhodos to Sparte :boxing:

It is often that during the tests we do (for the upcomming beta), Macedons first kick KH in Greece and than Greece starts to pull massive armies from Rhodos (like, sometimes there are even 10+ units in the 'bush' at Rhodos that go into the ship and off to Greece)

but a note: This is very common in ALX, still it might be just the fact that ALX AI uses those shiped troops in 'grouping' (massive) rather than separate forces .. :shrug:

[Maksimus]

A small prewiev of EAEM

https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6968/71602175qt7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5079/12542108gu1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4779/21495998sg3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Phalanx

:grin:

[Perturabo]

That looks like an awful lot of work :dizzy2: Modding some of the files was more than enough for me. Good luck with it.

[Maksimus]

This is just one already made EB unit, I added the sarissa and shield and I need to re-texture it - so it is not a big deal - I don't have time to make new models, We can just tweak those we already have :shrug:

Anyway's that is only for EB 11.. :yes:

[Maksimus]

note: I have uploaded a Screenshot (at the main post) where KH is Naval transporting 13 units and it is an Army from Rhodos to Sparta - so that capitol is protected from Gonatas.. That is the most units I have seen so far (and that I have proof of) - Anyways, Makedonia is doing the same in much smaller scope, Epeiros too - for example, im ALXEB mod test's - Epeiros is transporting troops to Italy, also Egypt is doing the same from Salamis.. etc

The reason why I have pointed at KH is because they use the greatest number of troops transported so far in any RTW game I saw..

Did anyone had some 'Bigger' naval use? Anytime on any *exe? I would like to know because it was a myth that BI has better naval - I don't konw - I dont use BI.exe for EB any more:shrug:

[Maksimus]

@Kervanos - You need to clear up your PMs storage so you can have more PMs :smash:

[Maksimus]

We need some expirienced RTW players that are in for a challenge!

Alexander EB team needs some BETA TESTERS for EAEM ALEXANDER EB MOD!
Here are the links
http://www.zshare.net/download/6759784759ddb4/
http://files.filefront.com/EAEM+EB+1+beta7z/;9482841;/fileinfo.html

NOT SAVE-GAME compatible

Please make backups before using any of the files, send remarks in the mod forum at the org or on my PM or LGK's PM

Credits (detailed will be after official release): EB team, RTR team, RS team, Konny, MiniMe, HalieSatanus, MrMerisi, Lysander13&Riczu74, Barbarossa82, all supporters and RTW fans

[Maksimus]

We need some expirienced RTW players that are in for a challenge!:grin:

Alexander EB team needs some BETA TESTERS for EAEM ALEXANDER EB MOD!
Here are the links
http://www.zshare.net/download/6759784759ddb4/
http://files.filefront.com/EAEM+EB+1+beta7z/;9482841;/fileinfo.html

Please make backups before using any of the files, send remarks in the mod forum at the org or on my PM or LGK's PM

Credits (detailed will be after official release): EB team, RTR team, RS team, Konny, MiniMe, HalieSatanus, MrMerisi, Lysander13&Riczu74, Barbarossa82, all supporters and RTW fans :grin:

[Maksimus]

Sorry for bumping this up really, but since there were some 20 downloads I wonder if someone actually tried the beta mod? anyone? :shrug:

[Galloper]

Nice thread. I also prefer play with alex.exe in all mods. Now I don't play in EB because it work very slow on my pc but soon I'll buy a new one :beam: and then I'll certainly play in EB with alex.exe :2thumbsup:
I can confirm that models limit is ~500 models. Also I didn't noticed that anyone sayed that AI on alex much better in assaulting cities. Under BI.exe when AI assaulting cities he always build one tower, two ladders and one ram. With alex.exe I saw how Ai built 5-6 ladders, sap points etc.
I have a question about uniqe generals textures. Is it possible to make uniqe generals textures for recruited general which not given from start of campaign?

[Maksimus]

Nice thread. I also prefer play with alex.exe in all mods. Now I don't play in EB because it work very slow on my pc but soon I'll buy a new one :beam: and then I'll certainly play in EB with alex.exe :2thumbsup:
I can confirm that models limit is ~500 models.

Very nice, I really belived that it is less :grin:

Thank you for the info:yes:


Also I didn't noticed that anyone sayed that AI on alex much better in assaulting cities. Under BI.exe when AI assaulting cities he always build one tower, two ladders and one ram. With alex.exe I saw how Ai built 5-6 ladders, sap points etc.
I have a question about uniqe generals textures. Is it possible to make uniqe generals textures for recruited general which not given from start of campaign?

I only noticed that in assaulting cities ALX tends to surround you in the town square:shrug:

And about the uniqe generals models/textures.. well, yes, some *txt files should be tweaked.. but only for 'recruited generals' - it is not posible (to my info) to make different textures/models for the Family Members :no:

One note: ALX.exe makes your game much faster - so you can try it out - on my Celeron it runs slow - but it runs nice :grin:

[omgitsnuc]

For some reason all my new generals don't have any traits, Not sure why. I'm using the beta version. It just says "No traits" in their trait section. Also all my general's don't seem to obtain any new traits. Not sure why.

[Maksimus]

Check if you activated the scritp file... (top left corner of the screen)
Check if you ... well, that is about it :grin:
But ok, I will load my game and get back here - it may be a prob :shrug:

[Admetos]

Sounds to me like you're using an old save game with the mod. Start a new campaign and everything will be fine.

[Maksimus]

Yes,

@omgitsnuc, Admetos is right, surely it is my bad because I did not specialy mentioned that you need to start a new game - sorry :surrender2:

Anyway, most of the mods need to be play 'as new game' since the whole picture is changing from the begining - I suggest you to start a new game and write the impressions :chucks:

[omgitsnuc]

Yep I was, Thanks. I spent like 10-14 hours on that old game on my weekend off meh!

[Maksimus]

Sorry to hear that, I mean, I hope you like the beta so we can compensate your loss :wall:

[PaladinX]

short Q: when i do want to use your alx-mod, do i still have to change some files by hand or just use the dl-file to extract and start?

cheers

[Maksimus]

In this release, you only need to overwrite the vanilla files with the files given - and you are going to be able to play the mod (but please, backup your files before that, still the mod is stable so you should not worry:curtain: ), so you dont need to manually change anything (unless you have tweaked some part of the game by hand - like me :grin: )

The manual guide is for modding community mostly - so that anyone can use ALX.exe engine with EB on simple basics that are minimal.. :boxing:


(in the finall release we will upload the vanilla files in separate folder)

EDIT: But sure, you only need to change THE TARGET LINE in your EB 10 shortcut (as instructed so you use ALX.exe instead of RTW.exe .) - but that is simple really

[NEver]

This is a really nooby question but I've noticed that when I choose "evening" for custom battles I get torches on my untis and I'd like to turn them off just for the evening setting. I'm wondering which I file I need to edit to do this.

[Maksimus]

Well, you need to use the manual so that you know how the things are done, still, I understand (I dont like much those torches either but they are popular and were common at that time)

Here is the solution: by following this step by step you can easily delete and remove the torches (in this spoiler is the step by step guide how to make torches IN - you only need to manually throw them out now :yes: )

These are the finall step's! You should add torches, lighting for night time, lighting to city buildings, and prebattle UI images (that is opional and not included in the download link)


1) To Add torches to the units:
Copy the following from your ’’bi \data\’’ folder to your ’’EB \data\folder’’
Like this:
’’bi\data\models_unit\attachments\’’ to ’’eb\data\ models_unit’’
’’bi\data\models_engine\’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’bi\data\models_effects\’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’bi\data\descr_effects.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’bi\data\descr_effects_engine_torch.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’bi\data\descr_effects_torch_fire.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’

Note: You can also get these files from XGM or from Archer's SkyMod that are better looking .)

2) Add lighting for night time
The BI weather and lighting settings look better for night battles than the in vanilla RTW. Copy the following files from ’’bi\data’’ to ’’eb\data\’’.
Like this:
’’bi\data\descr_battle_map_lighting_and_fog_control.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’bi\data\descr_daytypes.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’bi\data\descr_skydome.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’

The weather and lighting settings from Archer's SkyMod look even better. So If you have that mod -Copy the following files from ’’SKYMOD_BI\data’’ for ’’ Bi ’’ only to ’’eb\data\’’
The models folder!
’’descr_battle_map_lighting_and_fog_control.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’descr_daytypes.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’
’’descr_skydome.txt’’ to ’’eb\data\’’

3) Add prebattle UI images! (optional)

If you skip this step the engine will use a default image that looks as a day battle. All you need to do is put a suitable .TGA image called ’’prebattle_night.tga’’ in every ’’data/UI/[culturetype]/eventpics/’’ folder.
A good image to use is bi/data/UI/roman/eventpics/prebattle_night.tga.

4) Add window lighting to city buildings!

Copy the folder ’’bi\data\models_building\textures\glowing’’ to ’’eb\data\ models_building\textures’’

It is not that hard - try it and if you cant I will assist you further :grin:

[NEver]

Oh no I knew that, that's not the problem. I even made some of my own alterations to the lighting files earlier (I stole them from TIC which has real nice lighting).

I like the torches at night time but I don't like them at "evening" time.

I was wondering if there was a way I could keep them for "night" and "sunrise" and "sunset" but get rid of them from "evening"

This is only in custom battle, I don't seem to have the torches in any time except when I choose a night battle when playing campaign which is good.