They still inflict casualties jsut at a reduced rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygereio
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They still inflict casualties jsut at a reduced rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygereio
Wow, that's an insane ammount of food:dizzy2: I undrstand the price of eles now. But that doesn't explain the armoured ones.
Prices:
Elephantes Indikoi(Indian eles):
Recruitment: 13000
Upkeep: 3250
Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi(Armoured indian eles):
Recruitment: 23000
Upkeep:5750
That addition of price for extra armour seems extreme.
As Pontos I'm finally seeing the worth of chariots and Theurophoroi, two units I avoided before.
Its all the brasso they use keeping the armour shiny...:shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupu
I imagine the armoured ones were the really strong elephants with even bigger appetites than usual.
The manufacture and upkeep of armour must have been a huge cost. Those elephant coats were't exactly pret-a-porter. Add in extra transport costs for the armour as well: I don't think any heavily armoured unit just got up in the morning and put on their full panoply for a day's march. Any souirces on how armoured troops travelled that anyone knows?
On a side note, its a shame the engine can't be stretched to feature un-armoured versions of troops for when you ambush/surprise attack them. IIRC there's a bit in Polybius where Scipio's leuitenant L-something (Laelius?) night-attacks Syphax's camp and Syphax has to run away naked: tons of his guys get cut down in their PJ's.
Anyhoo, I think the Elephants of every variety are worth their salt. I fought a hard (strict stack HR) Carthi campaign up Italy with a seperate Punic and local flavoured armies: wherever the eles went, Nike followed.
The engine would first have to allow for surprise attacks in the first place: in RTW, all ambushes occur when one of the two opposing armies moves. There are no night-attacks on encampments, say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
Since I had a little time I tested them in Custom game against Botroas. At the first try the Massilians were in guard mode and lost the battle. At the second, without guard mode, they won narrowly with 7 survivors. Then I changed the formation to loose and I was wow'ed, the Massilians killed around 80 from the Botroas while lost only 10 men. Tried it out with loose again and the same results. So I want to change my statement, they aren't bad, moreover, quite decent sword heavy infantry. However, against cavalry they tend to shift-shift between swords and spears which isn't that good when you are too busy to watch them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygereio
I think the loose formation in RTW is bugged. IMO, with it sometimes falsely represent the ability of an unit. Like for example, I can hold a heavy cavalry charge with peltast in guard mode and loose formation. In real life, I don't think so.
Hrm, not if your units are in guard mode and you haven't given them an attack order. Then they just stand there and barely defend themselves if they are attacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
Mind you, I haven't played on RomeTW.exe for a long time, so that could be something specific to alex.exe.
That has more to do with the fact that the charge of cavalry is spent as soon as a single unit at the front row of the cavalry formation hits an enemy soldier. It doesn't matter if only one horse in the cavalry unit actually hits someone, the charge is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by chenkai11
I always find it somewhat funnny to see how the AI usually switches it's skirmisher units from loose to dense formation when they are about to be charged by my cavalry and thus ensures more casualties on his side.
You can also start cheesing the gameplay mechanics this way and 'catch' a cavalry charge by manouvering a unit so that a single soldier of that unit at the edge of the cavalry's path and is hit by a horse. The entire cavalry unit stops and you only loose a single solder to the charge (which is the most deadly effect of pretty much most cavalry).
Elephants are definitely prestige units, right up there with the 9000 upkeep poliremes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
Taking up Cyclops' challenge, for 5750 mnai you could support (prices approximate):
1 x Chaeonion Agema @ ~ 1000
1 x Pezhetairoi @ ~ 550
4 x Phalangitai Deuteroi @ ~ 1600
1 x Prodromoi @ ~ 600
1 x Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi @ ~ 500
2 x Thureophoroi @ ~ 1000
1 x Akontistai @ ~ 200
1 x FM general @ ~ 200
Total Cost: 5650 mnai/turn
Which is the core of my Epeirote royal army. All that's missing are the Toxotai Kretikoi, the Hypaspistai, the Pheraspides and, well, the Elephantes Indikoi - the most expensive 24 archers I'll ever field.
On the plus side, the fear effect is useful in encouraging elites to rout and in the right circumstances the charge is devastating.
https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7716...rymauresin.jpg
These guys were quite a suprise in my Romani campaign. I was suprised at first when they were defeating my Camillian Principes. Then, I checked their stats and wow. .225 lethality, fast, and are great skirmishers. Too bad they can only be recruited in North-easter Africa :laugh4:
EDIT: By the way, how do guys put up unit pictures without imageshack?
Find the desired unit picture here (each faction has a units page), right-click on the image and click "Copy Image Location". Press this button https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...nsertimage.gif and paste the unit-picture location.
Like so:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_drapanai.gif
I didn't say a word, AP, nary a word... :clown:
Illyrioi Hippeis
They are very cheap and because of their axes they can siginifcantly damage well armored cavalry.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ioihippeis.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...spartiates.gif
These guys are a major dissapointment. A life time of training and when facing a group of Akondistai at the town center, they win..but ONE dies?? really? "The world's greatest soldiers" lose one to a bunch of peasants during melee?:shame::wall::no:
There are so many peasants! You're attacking! It's a town battle!
They were the only units left and i decided that since my spartans weren't as tired, why not send them. They actually lost a guy :no:
You have unreasonably high expectations. Taking one casualty fighting a horde of Akontistai sounds like an achievement to me. Compare it to Thermopylae, where they had even more armour and still took casualties to the lightly armed Persians.
I wouldn't say a unit of akondistai (and like 3 hoplitai hoplois) is a horde :inquisitive: Plus, they're poor men using knives. Same with some of the Macedonian bodyguards. I tell them to charge a unit of hoplitai hoploi and they lose two units in the charge
I was like
ಠ_ಠ
Well, the following is a depiction of a french cuirassier, and a "poor man using a knife".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
http://latejedora.net/dmac/malasana_y_su_hija.jpg
Guess who's getting owned there. :grin:
So you're disappointed that you took one casualty while fighting more than 3 times as many men as you? I don't quite follow. People die in wars, all the time. A Spartan can get killed by Haploi as a knight by men-at-arms, or a marine by insurgents. Do you expect immortality as a pre-requisite for your army?
I think too many guys have watched 300 and have taken it serious. -.-
"Professional" and "elite" are not the synonymes of "immortal".
Damn. If I was a soldier, I don't want to die in that way. :shame: It look so stupid. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by -Praetor-
The "poor man using a knife" is avenging his daughter lying on the ground.
People defending their clan and their homes should be taken quite seriously, even if they are as lightly armed as an arkontistai.
Well the daughter looks hot anyway. Pity she's dead.
First off, 300 was an awesome movie :laugh4:
The French Curassier (or however it's spelled) probably didn't have the same training as the Spartans or use the same formation. I mean, these Spartans trained since childhood and fought in such a formation, with those giant shields.. How can one have died from tired peasants using a small knife when he is wielding a 8 foot spear, a giant aspis, and have his friends by his side.
Oh well, it's just a game :juggle2:
The 8 foot spear is a dead weight in close combat, the armour only covers the torso while exposing the limbs (exactly like the Cuirassier), plus the Cuirassier is a very well trained man. By that analogy we can also see that Knights, who were much better armoured than Spartans, also died knifed in close combat - the peasant here is in fact going for the gap in the defense, a clever and much practiced maneuver against even heavily armoured and skilled fighters. Not entirely impossible, also considering the circumstances that led the man to be immobilized first, which are not available to us but from our experience in combat seem very plausible. Elite fighters also have their weaknesses.
From a technical aspect and in regard to story-telling, yes. Otherwise it was crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
You have a point with the Spartan staying in formation. Still, your Spartan was fighting in a city, which not only confuses the RTW engine, but provides circumstances and conditions different from fighting in the open - which is what spearmen excel at - whereas in a city, chances are that a professional warrior can be killed with un-professional means quite easily sometimes. See what happened to Pyrrhos.
Don't think of 300 has a movie trying to be historical...because movies like that (for example: Alexander) are boring as hell. Instead, think of it as how a greek would retell the story, full of action and bravery. Afterall, the movie is supposed to the survivor inspiring the troops, not boring the shit out of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hermopylae.jpg
Except the Spartans would have been naked :dizzy2:
I still think it's disappointing for a "Fresh" unit of Spartans to even lose one to a "Winded" Unit of Akontisdai.
If you are referring to RL, those peasants wouldn't be just guys with knives, they would use everything to defend themselves, rock throwing included.
I firstly believed that your expectations about Spartans and Makedonian bodyguards are just joke.
[I]Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
... the other day i took 3 FM's out of Baktra to deal with an annoying 3 unit stack of bandit archer spearmen- (they also had a Daha general but i managed to kill him with my super-assassin!!! ) so i charge with my valiant somatophylakes-a thick block of 3 X 13 mounted bodyguards galloping with their spears lowered and all and WHAM!!! two seconds after impact the youngest of the FM dies...
in my oppinion some elite casualties even against lowly troops add depth,complexity and realism to the game...
carrying around an indestructable "Rambo" force can get a bit... dull shall we say ??? a few deaths here and there spice things up and keep you on the edge of your seat :yes:
even if Spartans are supposed to outlast that situation without a scratch(which is not a fact always count in causalties) one casualty can realy be regarded as bad luck. loosing one unit to a bunch of guys with knives is not someting that shout for "overrated!!!!!". statistics statistics statistics the pure possibility of all your spartans dieing to a single arkontistai, the chance is very slim tho^^
on 300: lets not overstress this there were more than 300 discussions about this topic, just see it as a spartan themed action movie with a lot of blood and gore.It's not like it's based on the real event It's based on a comic book.
Is he trolling? I think he must be trolling at least a bit. No matter, I'm sure someone can come up with a legitimate complaint about Spartans.
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...spartiates.gif
Like the fact that they are more expensive and more limited in recruitment than Epilektoi. Arguably, they are a bit of a waste in a post-Koinon army, as history has proven it to be unwise to have your best soldiers be from a rowdy, hard-to-please clique.
Trolling? :inquisitive:
It looks like the peasant is trying to kiss the guy on the horse and the guy on the horse doesn't seem fond of that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Praetor-
So complaining that your highly-trained, expensively-equipped elite soldier is beaten by a guy with a butterknife is trolling?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Very Super Market
Personally, when fighting brigands with a family member, I always imagine that my boys would be embarrassed about the one hetairoi that manages to get pulled out of the saddle when fighting spendonetai. That's not the way a member of the Royal Guard is supposed to die.
Still, doesn't make the unit underwhelming: it happens to all elite units.
Truth. Sux when it happens 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
true dat...plus they are highly cost ineffective in MP battles, even a barb faction can bring an undoubtedly absolute super killer unit with the same cost :furious3:..i only bring one of these guys for role playing n all...Quote:
Originally Posted by A Very Super Market
Not only the spartans are crap, it concerns almost every elite unit which fights in hoplite style. Indo Nobel Hoplites, Hypaspisty, etc.
And this isn't only in this mod. Played mods like RTR and there was also the same problem - without their phalanx ability from Rome Vanilla hoplites are crap - excepted you put them in guard mod which isn't a problem in sp ...
Illyrioi Thureophoroi (Illyrian spearmen)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ureophoroi.gif
As fan of epeiros i tested this unit too. This lightly armored Thureophoroi are able to defeat many heavily armored infantery like classical hoplites. They are quite decent and im surprised because their armor is with 5 really crappy.
yeah , i have used them to hold off hordes of celts and roman.
They are a prestige unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by m0r1d1n
What about these guys:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius_Belisarius
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...rioi_agema.gif
They fight in hoplite style but have big choppa's secondary.
I found them surprisingly good. Fighting the Saka Rauka I attacked a unit of their foot archers but wasnt paying attention, so got charged by saka armoured nobles in the back. (Outwitted by AI XD) I lost halve my units in the charge (I play at huge, but they had already been mauled previously, so it went from 80 to 40)
I thought they were lost then. But being elites they refused to rout, chopped into the foot archers at their front so brutally that they routed, then switched to their spears and trolled the heavy cavalry at their backs. 30 of them were left and i continued to use them throughout the battle, stacking up 350 killzzzz.
Personally, I think hoplites are quite good. Especially the Spartan guys who have a unique combination of heavy armour and very good stamina. It's a unit that is almost impervious to missiles from the front, kills cavalry, and can run around for a long time, unlike other armoured guys.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that hoplites are in many cases better than phalanxes. They certainly don't have the frontal stopping power of phalanxes, but in guard mode they will definitely hold units from the front for a very long time. Plus, they are far more maneuverable than phalanxes, and thus can respond to flanking very quickly. Hoplitai Haploi have been mentioned many times in this thread as a surprisingly good unit, and they certainly are. They can hold many better enemies from the front, and their lack of armor is actual helpful in some ways, as it makes them incredibly fast for a unit of spearmen. In my Epeiros campaign these guys run around the map so fast it's astounding.Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
I agree. I mean against Phalanx helps only Phalanx but when it vcomes to Phalanx or Hoplitai vs. something else then Phalanx, I definetly prefer Hoplitai because they are more flexible and maneuverable!
In Eb Hoplites are way more powerfull than phalangitai, if they would have the same numbers. Imagine a 242 unit of greek bodyguards, they would kill everything. :skull::skull::skull:
Surprisingly BAD
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ikon_agema.gif
No, I not means I was playing with them... but when I sent my pontos army to eat the Ptolemaioi, they start one stack carrying several of them to attack my FM that only lead halfstack of Galatian Warriors and some missile troops. At first I fear that they are a really tough guy to take (like Hypaspistai or Peltastai Makedonikoi), but after my Kluddolon (yes Galatikoi Kluddolon, the bare chested shortswordsmen!) made some short work with them (they are just getting killed very quickly compared to their Machimoi and Pezhetairoi comrades... I was quite dissapointed, how could supposedly elite units getting killed so easily and flee when only facing some bare-chested shortswordsmen? (notice: I don't carry any Tindanotae, just plain Kluddolon and Galatikoi Kuraothoroi as my line army)
They are good infantry to leave in guard mode for use as assault infantry because of their AP swords. You really don't want them to get into a melee with half naked peasants. They are also quite good as reserve units.
Saba's unit roster is actually better than one would think, simply because they never break, giving you enough time to use your bodyguards to break a phalanx. Red Sea light infantry is also good, cheap, and the AP axes make them nice shock troops for breaking low end ptolie units. Arabian light cavalry is also surisingly nice, due to the decent charge. They are great for routing the Native spears that ore thrown at me in hordes.
On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.
There is much pricing I do not agree with in EB, but heck, what do I know about pricing?Quote:
Originally Posted by -42-
What do I have in mind at the moment? Take for instance, Armenian Medium Infantry. Have you seen the price on that thing? Georgian Medium Infantry is cheaper...Romans EVEN cheaper. I understand it, but almost 1900 mnai? Come on! Why?
They base it on historical accuracy, Romans are cheap to simulate Rome's ability to recruit massive amounts of troops. Ethiopians are decent for what they are, a stopgap until you can get the powerhouse troops up north (Galatians) but they are pricier than Red Sea Hoplites and offer little benefit, especially once you have units with chevrons gained by slaughtering podromoi.
I agree, Sabaeans have amazing morale, and it really is their saving grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by -42-
Ethiopian Swordsmen are terrible. They are one of my least favorite units in EB simply because they look so cool and you expect them to be at least decent, but they inevitably take ridiculous casualties and then rout off the field, even when you use them in the correct role of medium swordsmen. I've seen them get killed off and routed by Ethiopian Light Spearmen, which are meant to be a weaker unit, and the spears were not in guard mode, nor were they flanking the swords.
Scythian Riders are stronger than Steppe Riders and Scythians are also cheaper~DQuote:
Originally Posted by vartan
On what basis is the recruitment cost calculated, first I thougth stats but that is wrong I see?
Same goes for their Indo Greek Noble brethren (slightly weaker), I had a depleted group of them kill around 200 Baltic light Spearmen (they were with 16) and at the end there were 5 left, not a single thougth of routing!Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
~Fluvius
I've noticed this too. It's the same with the cataphract HAs, where the Parthian guys are actually a (tiny) bit better than the Armenian ones, and yet cost less. Though in that case, I suspect, the availability of suitable horses etc. has been calculated by the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus
Obviously, we don't know exactly how much a unit would have costed. I guess it is based on equipment, social status and the military system. For example, Romans get a discount on heavy infantry, but their cavalry is expensive. For Equestrian nations the opposite applies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus
Don't use them against Iberians, use Caetratii, Milites and some Light/Med cav. Loricati Scutarii are not suited to taking on the lighter, more mobile Iberians. The Loricati are murder against Romans, hammer and anvil with Iberian heavy cav and you will never lose to Rome (even when they start hurling stacks Pedite Extrordinarii and Triarii). They also handily kill Hoplites in droves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebivjetar
THis brings me to my next suprisingly good unit. Caetratii are great light infantry (if way too pricy, ah well, Carthage has the cash) and they are probably the best flanking infantry for their avaliability. The rediculous amount of Soliform helps too. Able to handily kill Hastati and Principes if used correctly.
Catraeti are great offensive infantry yes, but mine always take alot of casualties because theyre so vulnerable to missiles (not handy in the javelin heavy west) and completely suck against cavalry.
you're meant to hide them amongst trees or in tall grass (Fire@will OFF), spring out of seemingly nowhere, throw them AP javalins, then cut the disorientated foe into hamburger patties.
its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-
on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?
The indo-greeks have + 1 attack with both spear and swordQuote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
That's because the Indo-Greek Nobles are a Saka reform unit (IIRC), and thus can't have their attack upgraded by a blacksmith.Quote:
Originally Posted by anubis88
Baktria gets them too (without any reform), so I don't think that's the explanation. I guess they just were considered to be slightly "better."Quote:
Originally Posted by athanaric
EDIT: According the online unit list, the Indo-Greek Nobles and the Baktrian Royal Guard have the exact same stats, 28 Defense, 16 morale, 12 sword attack and 17 spear attack. Is this different in game?
They are both recruitable by Baktria, Bakrion Agema are lvl 5 factionals around Baktria and if you go to the Indus valley the Indo Greek nobles are lvl 5 factionals there.Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
Indo Greeks are two units less, because they have no unit commander and standard bearer.
Their stats are (almost) identical.
~Fluvius
Hypaspistai are expensive and not very useful, they don't die much, but they don't kill as much as I thought they would.
Mauri infantry are suprising, they kill very efficiently.
Indeed, Hypaspistai and Galatikoi Kuarothoroi do not perform as expected. Thorakitai are superior in tests against a variety of opponents. I've read that alt+clicking constantly will resolve this. Unfortunately this is not very practical and we are limited by the engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by -42-
I find them to be pretty gd in doing wt they do best: A living wall. They do that better than hoplitai AND they can do some chopping if need be.
the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.
they where better then any other regular unit that can somewhat be agreed uppon but they where still just regular soldiers being payed a salarium and not trully nobles or particulary devoted soldiersQuote:
Originally Posted by Yarema
if you want to make them elite you either require evocatas wich where the old veterans being reasembled or you have to get them alot of experience before they can be considered equals of nobles/elite units
as for phalanxs there´s an american expression that i believe i must use now if you can´t defeat phalanxs with legionaires "YOU´RE DOING IT WRONG" :laugh4:
Roman legions are 'lings. Individual 'lings may be weak, but the idea is that u can have a seemingly endless rushes of them. What happened when a Romaioi 'ling spam failed? They send more of them.
Roman soldiers had training and motivation second to none. Of course warrior and hunter cultures had better individual soldiers, but still, everybody lost against rome. :book:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarema
Sorry, but that just isn't true. Roman legionaries received a good training and were generally well-motivated, but not up to the level of elite units. They were rank-and-file, not elite. Just because they won does not mean their basic grunt was superior to everything the enemy had. The Romans had the best, most flexible rank-and-file unit of the time, and that's how it is in the mod.Quote:
Originally Posted by seienchin
You know, that's not really a good analogy since Legionaires are discounted rather than cheap throw away. If you want to see a zerg rush, go watch some MP games of Getai.Quote:
Originally Posted by satalexton
They are more like Marines where you can do a disproportionate damage to them since they are so cheap and plentiful you can gain critical mass to be immune from rush attacks or attack the zerg at like 3 places at once though they die rather easily in small groups to everything.
Or this if you're totally awesome or named NaDa.
:smash:
Yeah... we can suspect in EB 2, the roman legionary's price will be definitely higher, but their regeneration rate at the recruitment pool is very high... maybe SPQR will be capable to train 3 unit of legionaries per city everytime without gettin exhausted their recruitment. Except when the population was unavailable... this way is more realistic then getting cheap supperior line soldiers come in 100 me, while the others come in 80 men.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
You could ask Jugurtha, Mithridates, Arminius or Surena if roman legionaires were super humans...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarema
They were the best medium infantry in the world at the time. But they weren't super humans, and you have to know how to use them.
Still you can assume that they were more powerfull than normal hoplites at that time :book::book:Quote:
Originally Posted by -Praetor-
Not to mention the eastern infantry, which the romans slaughtered even when outnumbered 5 to 1:2thumbsup:
Yeah... except when Marcus Antonius had to withdraw from Northern Iran, although the terrain there favoured his troops...Quote:
Originally Posted by seienchin
Just depends on what you mean by Eastern infantry. It's not just one unit type, and they weren't all bad.
Pantodapoi, Kavakaza Sparabara, Gundi Nizagan, and Hai Nizgarmantik :laugh4: Not to mention Nomad verieties....Quote:
Originally Posted by seienchin
They are bad infantry, useful only as meatshields against swordsmen, although the later two are useful vs nomads...
They are actually good, unless you throw them at professional Romans, Northern Barbarians, or certain elite units. Every unit type has its purpose and its strengths (except Apeleutheroi). Drapanai for example totally suck against missiles. Still nobody calls them bad, because they have other strengths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
BTW Pandas are by far the worst of the lot. Gund-î Nizagân and the Hai guys are quite decent vs. missile troops, so use accordingly.
Don't forget about infinite reinforcements :beam: Actually, scratch that. Imagine the EB1 AS stacks except with infinite reinforcement....:skull:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
I've got unlimited men on the battlefield, and manage to throw off many times several AS attacks, especially when their army comprised solely (if not mostly) pantodapoi...Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
And when they start throwing Argyraspidai, I have their "holy :daisy: they are soo :daisy: effective!" counter.....
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...sea_axemen.gif
Thanks to their eagerness to be sent on certain suicide missions, they even sent those poor argyraspides running when they simply charge the phalangitai's flank.... Just think as a bit ineffective, as well sightly exspensive form of drapanai.....