Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Apázlinemjó]

true dat...plus they are highly cost ineffective in MP battles, even a barb faction can bring an undoubtedly absolute super killer unit with the same cost ..i only bring one of these guys for role playing n all...

They are a prestige unit.

[alexanderthegreater]

Not only the spartans are crap, it concerns almost every elite unit which fights in hoplite style. Indo Nobel Hoplites, Hypaspisty, etc.

What about these guys:



They fight in hoplite style but have big choppa's secondary.
I found them surprisingly good. Fighting the Saka Rauka I attacked a unit of their foot archers but wasnt paying attention, so got charged by saka armoured nobles in the back. (Outwitted by AI XD) I lost halve my units in the charge (I play at huge, but they had already been mauled previously, so it went from 80 to 40)
I thought they were lost then. But being elites they refused to rout, chopped into the foot archers at their front so brutally that they routed, then switched to their spears and trolled the heavy cavalry at their backs. 30 of them were left and i continued to use them throughout the battle, stacking up 350 killzzzz.

[athanaric]

Personally, I think hoplites are quite good. Especially the Spartan guys who have a unique combination of heavy armour and very good stamina. It's a unit that is almost impervious to missiles from the front, kills cavalry, and can run around for a long time, unlike other armoured guys.

[WinsingtonIII]

Personally, I think hoplites are quite good. Especially the Spartan guys who have a unique combination of heavy armour and very good stamina. It's a unit that is almost impervious to missiles from the front, kills cavalry, and can run around for a long time, unlike other armoured guys.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that hoplites are in many cases better than phalanxes. They certainly don't have the frontal stopping power of phalanxes, but in guard mode they will definitely hold units from the front for a very long time. Plus, they are far more maneuverable than phalanxes, and thus can respond to flanking very quickly. Hoplitai Haploi have been mentioned many times in this thread as a surprisingly good unit, and they certainly are. They can hold many better enemies from the front, and their lack of armor is actual helpful in some ways, as it makes them incredibly fast for a unit of spearmen. In my Epeiros campaign these guys run around the map so fast it's astounding.

[ziegenpeter]

I agree. I mean against Phalanx helps only Phalanx but when it vcomes to Phalanx or Hoplitai vs. something else then Phalanx, I definetly prefer Hoplitai because they are more flexible and maneuverable!

[seienchin]

In Eb Hoplites are way more powerfull than phalangitai, if they would have the same numbers. Imagine a 242 unit of greek bodyguards, they would kill everything.

[Rahwana]

Surprisingly BAD


No, I not means I was playing with them... but when I sent my pontos army to eat the Ptolemaioi, they start one stack carrying several of them to attack my FM that only lead halfstack of Galatian Warriors and some missile troops. At first I fear that they are a really tough guy to take (like Hypaspistai or Peltastai Makedonikoi), but after my Kluddolon (yes Galatikoi Kluddolon, the bare chested shortswordsmen!) made some short work with them (they are just getting killed very quickly compared to their Machimoi and Pezhetairoi comrades... I was quite dissapointed, how could supposedly elite units getting killed so easily and flee when only facing some bare-chested shortswordsmen? (notice: I don't carry any Tindanotae, just plain Kluddolon and Galatikoi Kuraothoroi as my line army)

[antisocialmunky]

They are good infantry to leave in guard mode for use as assault infantry because of their AP swords. You really don't want them to get into a melee with half naked peasants. They are also quite good as reserve units.

[-42-]

Saba's unit roster is actually better than one would think, simply because they never break, giving you enough time to use your bodyguards to break a phalanx. Red Sea light infantry is also good, cheap, and the AP axes make them nice shock troops for breaking low end ptolie units. Arabian light cavalry is also surisingly nice, due to the decent charge. They are great for routing the Native spears that ore thrown at me in hordes.

On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.

[vartan]

On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.

There is much pricing I do not agree with in EB, but heck, what do I know about pricing?

What do I have in mind at the moment? Take for instance, Armenian Medium Infantry. Have you seen the price on that thing? Georgian Medium Infantry is cheaper...Romans EVEN cheaper. I understand it, but almost 1900 mnai? Come on! Why?

[-42-]

They base it on historical accuracy, Romans are cheap to simulate Rome's ability to recruit massive amounts of troops. Ethiopians are decent for what they are, a stopgap until you can get the powerhouse troops up north (Galatians) but they are pricier than Red Sea Hoplites and offer little benefit, especially once you have units with chevrons gained by slaughtering podromoi.

[WinsingtonIII]

Saba's unit roster is actually better than one would think, simply because they never break, giving you enough time to use your bodyguards to break a phalanx. Red Sea light infantry is also good, cheap, and the AP axes make them nice shock troops for breaking low end ptolie units. Arabian light cavalry is also surisingly nice, due to the decent charge. They are great for routing the Native spears that ore thrown at me in hordes.

On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.

I agree, Sabaeans have amazing morale, and it really is their saving grace.

Ethiopian Swordsmen are terrible. They are one of my least favorite units in EB simply because they look so cool and you expect them to be at least decent, but they inevitably take ridiculous casualties and then rout off the field, even when you use them in the correct role of medium swordsmen. I've seen them get killed off and routed by Ethiopian Light Spearmen, which are meant to be a weaker unit, and the spears were not in guard mode, nor were they flanking the swords.

[Fluvius Camillus]

There is much pricing I do not agree with in EB, but heck, what do I know about pricing?

What do I have in mind at the moment? Take for instance, Armenian Medium Infantry. Have you seen the price on that thing? Georgian Medium Infantry is cheaper...Romans EVEN cheaper. I understand it, but almost 1900 mnai? Come on! Why?

Scythian Riders are stronger than Steppe Riders and Scythians are also cheaper

On what basis is the recruitment cost calculated, first I thougth stats but that is wrong I see?

What about these guys:



They fight in hoplite style but have big choppa's secondary.
I found them surprisingly good. Fighting the Saka Rauka I attacked a unit of their foot archers but wasnt paying attention, so got charged by saka armoured nobles in the back. (Outwitted by AI XD) I lost halve my units in the charge (I play at huge, but they had already been mauled previously, so it went from 80 to 40)
I thought they were lost then. But being elites they refused to rout, chopped into the foot archers at their front so brutally that they routed, then switched to their spears and trolled the heavy cavalry at their backs. 30 of them were left and i continued to use them throughout the battle, stacking up 350 killzzzz.

Same goes for their Indo Greek Noble brethren (slightly weaker), I had a depleted group of them kill around 200 Baltic light Spearmen (they were with 16) and at the end there were 5 left, not a single thougth of routing!

~Fluvius

[athanaric]

Scythian Riders are stronger than Steppe Riders and Scythians are also cheaper

I've noticed this too. It's the same with the cataphract HAs, where the Parthian guys are actually a (tiny) bit better than the Armenian ones, and yet cost less. Though in that case, I suspect, the availability of suitable horses etc. has been calculated by the team.

[Ludens]

On what basis is the recruitment cost calculated, first I thougth stats but that is wrong I see?

Obviously, we don't know exactly how much a unit would have costed. I guess it is based on equipment, social status and the military system. For example, Romans get a discount on heavy infantry, but their cavalry is expensive. For Equestrian nations the opposite applies.

[-42-]

Surprisingly bad: Loricati Scutari: yesterday one unit of these lost by one unit of lousitanian light infantry

I think i wont train them anymore...

Don't use them against Iberians, use Caetratii, Milites and some Light/Med cav. Loricati Scutarii are not suited to taking on the lighter, more mobile Iberians. The Loricati are murder against Romans, hammer and anvil with Iberian heavy cav and you will never lose to Rome (even when they start hurling stacks Pedite Extrordinarii and Triarii). They also handily kill Hoplites in droves.

THis brings me to my next suprisingly good unit. Caetratii are great light infantry (if way too pricy, ah well, Carthage has the cash) and they are probably the best flanking infantry for their avaliability. The rediculous amount of Soliform helps too. Able to handily kill Hastati and Principes if used correctly.

[alexanderthegreater]

Catraeti are great offensive infantry yes, but mine always take alot of casualties because theyre so vulnerable to missiles (not handy in the javelin heavy west) and completely suck against cavalry.

[satalexton]

you're meant to hide them amongst trees or in tall grass (Fire@will OFF), spring out of seemingly nowhere, throw them AP javalins, then cut the disorientated foe into hamburger patties.

[alexanderthegreater]

its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-

on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?

[anubis88]

its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-

on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?

The indo-greeks have + 1 attack with both spear and sword

[athanaric]

The indo-greeks have + 1 attack with both spear and sword

That's because the Indo-Greek Nobles are a Saka reform unit (IIRC), and thus can't have their attack upgraded by a blacksmith.

[WinsingtonIII]

That's because the Indo-Greek Nobles are a Saka reform unit (IIRC), and thus can't have their attack upgraded by a blacksmith.

Baktria gets them too (without any reform), so I don't think that's the explanation. I guess they just were considered to be slightly "better."

EDIT: According the online unit list, the Indo-Greek Nobles and the Baktrian Royal Guard have the exact same stats, 28 Defense, 16 morale, 12 sword attack and 17 spear attack. Is this different in game?

[Fluvius Camillus]

its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-

on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?

They are both recruitable by Baktria, Bakrion Agema are lvl 5 factionals around Baktria and if you go to the Indus valley the Indo Greek nobles are lvl 5 factionals there.

Indo Greeks are two units less, because they have no unit commander and standard bearer.

Their stats are (almost) identical.

~Fluvius

[-42-]

Hypaspistai are expensive and not very useful, they don't die much, but they don't kill as much as I thought they would.

Mauri infantry are suprising, they kill very efficiently.

[king of thracia]

Hypaspistai are expensive and not very useful, they don't die much, but they don't kill as much as I thought they would.

Indeed, Hypaspistai and Galatikoi Kuarothoroi do not perform as expected. Thorakitai are superior in tests against a variety of opponents. I've read that alt+clicking constantly will resolve this. Unfortunately this is not very practical and we are limited by the engine.

[satalexton]

I find them to be pretty gd in doing wt they do best: A living wall. They do that better than hoplitai AND they can do some chopping if need be.

[Yarema]

the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.

[moonburn]

the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.

they where better then any other regular unit that can somewhat be agreed uppon but they where still just regular soldiers being payed a salarium and not trully nobles or particulary devoted soldiers

if you want to make them elite you either require evocatas wich where the old veterans being reasembled or you have to get them alot of experience before they can be considered equals of nobles/elite units

as for phalanxs there´s an american expression that i believe i must use now if you can´t defeat phalanxs with legionaires "YOU´RE DOING IT WRONG"

[satalexton]

Roman legions are 'lings. Individual 'lings may be weak, but the idea is that u can have a seemingly endless rushes of them. What happened when a Romaioi 'ling spam failed? They send more of them.

[seienchin]

Roman soldiers had training and motivation second to none. Of course warrior and hunter cultures had better individual soldiers, but still, everybody lost against rome.