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Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't support anyone killing civilians. I do, however, support the Palestinians doing as much damage to the IDF as possible, no matter where or when that action is taken. And I support the Palestinans enagaging in every level of civil disobediance that does not harm civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
That is why Golda Meir is right, these kids are raised as soldiers, look at the schoolbooks, schoolplays, they are being skull****ed from day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Nothing to do with the Palestinian kidnapping Israeli's, holding them to random, and firing rockets into Israel. In Israel the separating wall between Israel and Palestine is to keep Jewish Israeli's out of Palestine, because as soon as they cross, Palestinians would kidnap them, and since Israel doesn't want to supply 10 man armed body guards to protect their citizens, they are not allowed in Palestinian territories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
The Muslims in Israel are treated very well, so are the Drews, Jews, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants and others. There is a lot of religious harmony and respect between people.
Only reason Osol accords and why peace-settlement is popular with the Israeli citizens is because they want peace and security. The Israeli's are not the bad guys, contrary to your belief. They are the guys who have to watch their backs for daggers and when people don't realise that, they just attack Israel on it's "aggressive" behaviour when they are very limited in what they can do to try to protect themselves.
I have been to Israel and Palestine, I have spoken to the people there, I was also constantly targeted by Israeli security either because I am on some Israeli watch-list, or they think i was the second coming of Goliath. But other that nuisance, I got to hear both sides of the story from the people there. From that, i have concluded if the whole area just went under direct Israeli administration with Palestinians becoming Israeli's and dropping their Palestinian identity card, then it would simply resolve this issue and everyone would live happily ever after.
You didn't answer my question:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
What percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism?
Maybe if the one's who still had children didn't support the rocket firings and suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be provoked into retaliating once again.Quote:
The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.
CR
That is happening on both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
What percentage? If I was to say 10% or 34% or 51%, how would you counter that number?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Maybe if the ones who stole the land and imprisoned, brutalized, tortured, dehumanized, and killed the people who lived there didn't do those things, the other people wouldn't support those who fire rockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The Zionists stole Palestinian land, and they continue to steal more land, and they keep well over a million people locked up under conditions that even a supporter of South African apartheid would agree were brutal. If there is antagosim, that is why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
The Israelis are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than those they acuse of being murderes. They are the ones who run concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions. They are the ones who will kill you for attemtpting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
So the invaded should assume the identity of the invader to facilitate the invasion process?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
That's a bit too Vichy for my blood. (And the Palestinians as well, thank God.)
Be careful saying "concentration camps". Anything that might be linked to the Holocaust is verboten - including drawing parallels.
~:smoking:
Actually, Israel legally own the Palestinian land. Israel and Palestine were separate until Jordan annex'd Palestine, and in the Israeli-Jordan war, Israel legally took those Palestinian territories from Jordan. So if you want some one to blame, blame Jordan and the Palestinians who handed over their sovereignty. Even then, before that, the area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, then later in the British Mandate of Palestine. There hasn't been a Palestinian 'nation' there. Also, the "Israeli's" / "Jews" were always there as well oppressed under various rulers and controllers of the territory, but just expanded greatly in number after the creation of Israel. Also there is the fact the Jewish populace were the natives of that area anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Also, trust me, Palestinians are not starving, they were trying to sell me bottles of Coca-cola and I visited a Jewelry shop which also has an office in New York, where everything was expensive heading into the thousands of dollars range. From high value diamonds, gold, deep sea salts, etc. Far from the perceived universal poverty you are sowing, they even have a Mc Donalds.
The only serious area is the Gaza strip where Muslim funded terrorists operate (ie: Hamas). There are no "concentration camps", and "kill you for attempting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless" is utter nonsense. I have been there and seen it for myself. I am not impressed by some of the ways Israel has handled things, but that shouldn't be a barrier to solving the issues in the area.
I don't care for national borders, so fighting for some national identity is pointless and this talk is just rhetoric, I don't see you saying about Post-war Germany and Japan not facilitating to the Western allies after the second world war. I mean, look at Germany and Japan now, they are both great places. So yeah, Israel would be a great place too without the nutjobs.Quote:
So the invaded should assume the identity of the invader to facilitate the invasion process?
Well I'd use this for percentages:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2010
It seems likely that Palestinian 'defensive actions' that aren't acts of terrorism are less than 1% when the IDF isn't invading in retaliation for rocket attacks.Quote:
In 2010, there was a dramatic drop in rocket attacks, down from 569 in 2009 to 150 in 2010. In 2008, in comparison, 2,048 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza.
You say you don't support targeting civilians, but that is almost all the Palestinian groups do. If you really didn't support attacking civilians, you can't support whose primary actions are targeting civilians. Nor can you support the Palestinian people, who voted those groups into power.
You'll excuse all the terrorist acts by saying Israel has given the Palestinians a lot of reasons to hate them. And Israel has given Palestinians a lot of legitimate reasons to hate them. That doesn't excuse attacking civilians.
However the Palestinians can stop the rocket attacks and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful era.
But that would require them to love their children more than they hate Israel.
CR
Agreed. So let's tell the Israelis to dump their national identity and borders and we'll go back to calling the place Palestine and everything will be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
That was easy. :sunny:
So you are saying the Palestinians have a right to kill IDF soldiers in Gaza because it is self-defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I don't support the targeting the of civilians. I think the Palestinians should target the Israeli military and government, not Israeli civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
And yes, I do support the Palestinian people.
You continue to imply that I support terrorism. I think in the interest of fair play you either quote me as saying such a thing or refrain from saying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
However the Israelis can stop the brutal subjugation and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful eraQuote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
That's a cute tagline but it doesn't mean anything other than a Palestinian should hold hands with his child while in his other hand he holds a flower all the while IDF jets are straffing his house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It might make for a cute poem in the Tao Tse Ching, but in real life, it's meaningless.
Legal framework. Since Israel already has one and it works, it is easier just to merge 'Palestinian' territories back in than vice-versus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
But since it was the creation of Israel that started all the trouble, and all we want is an end to the fighting, I think it best to go back to everyone being Palestinian. Wouldn't be but a small clerical effort to get the paperwork done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
And since you said you don't really care about the details of national identity, we'll let the Israeli identity go. I'm sure we can agree on this. :yes:
ain't going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
i think CR was trying to point out that indiscriminately firing rockets into israeli town is in fact terrorism.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
They should be aimed.
Argh. For the second time today the board ate a reply of mine by logging out in between me starting a response and posting it.
So he's the condensed version:
No, only that fighting a military force is not terrorism.Quote:
So you are saying the Palestinians have a right to kill IDF soldiers in Gaza because it is self-defense?
That's like saying you support a football team but not the playing of football. Almost everything the Palestinian 'leadership' does is terrorism.Quote:
I don't support the targeting the of civilians. I think the Palestinians should target the Israeli military and government, not Israeli civilians.
And yes, I do support the Palestinian people.
No, only that you will always give excuses for it, as exemplified in your next quote:Quote:
You continue to imply that I support terrorism. I think in the interest of fair play you either quote me as saying such a thing or refrain from saying it.
You also say both sides could end it, but seem to think Israel is evil while Palestinians deserve your support. The Palestinians are the ones who actively target civilians, though.Quote:
However the Israelis can stop the brutal subjugation and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful era
And what would happen if Israel pulled out of the West Bank and Gaza and opened the borders? Do you think Hamas would suddenly become peaceful and forget their goal of destroying Israel? Do you think the Palestinians would not send suicide bombers to attack Israeli civilians, as they did before?
Nor do I think a Palestinian state covering the entire area of Israel and Palestine would be good for the homosexuals who might be killed for their sexuality under the Palestinian regime.
And what would happen if Palestinians held flowers while Israelis attacked? That was what the civil rights movement in the US did, and it worked for them. In fact, anything would work better for the Palestinians because even with all their attempted terrorism they fail miserably at achieving their goals.Quote:
That's a cute tagline but it doesn't mean anything other than a Palestinian should hold hands with his child while in his other hand he holds a flower all the while IDF jets are straffing his house.
It might make for a cute poem in the Tao Tse Ching, but in real life, it's meaningless.
Since basically all the Palestinian 'resistance' is terrorist acts, why not support a cessation of their violent resistance? Israel would be forced to at least slowly loosen their grip if the Palestinians were peaceful. And progress towards peace might actually be made.
The Palestinians have a choice; to be ruled by their hatred or to make a better life for their children.
CR
Ow! If that's supposed to be not supporting terrorism you are doing it all wrong imhoQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
edit: may have misunderstood your post, sorry if so
Been there - done that. Very frustrating. It's happened so often on several boards that I copy the text of my post before posting if it's longer than a single sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I don't think I have spoken of the Palestinian leadership. I speak of the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Also, the actions that you describe as terrorism, I believe, are temporary in that as circumstances change, so will the nature of those actions. Nelson Mandela was a dangerous terrorist and spent 26 years in prison. Look at him now, Ghandi reborn.
I will say it again: I never once said I supported terrorism or the targeting of civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So unless you are looking to have this conversation degrade into an entire series of false accusations, perhaps you might want to reconsider your choice of words.
As Israel has killed far, far more civilans than the Palestinans ever have, I would be inclined to say, then, that the IDF is either directly targeting civilians or are simply so incompetant in the use of their weapons that they are hitting everything and everyone except who they are shooting at. Take your pick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Isreal taking the jackboot off the neck of the Palestinians and allowing them actual freedom is a complete game changer. If the Palestinians were free, really free, and continued to attack the Israelis, I would be the first person to say Isreal should drop a great big bomb on Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Yeah... put on hot pants and a pink t-shirt and go for a walk through an orthodox neighbourhood in Israel. See how many rocks bounce on your head on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I guess the palestinians have more George Washington than Ghandi in their blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Besides, even if the Palestinians didn't throw a single rock for a whole year, they would still have the Isreali jackboot on their necks. The Isrealis don't subjugate the Palestinians because they have to, they subjugate them because they want to.
I support an increase in their violent resistence. I just want that violence targeted with more discretion. I don't think people who enslave others, who murder others, and who torture others should be met with flowers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
As I said, the Isrealis don't subjugate the Palestinians because they have to, they subjugate them because they want to.
Yeah, that might sound great on Oprah, but in real life where the Israelis will murder youf if you try to bring food and medicine to suffering people, those flowery words come off a bit... weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
They will always have a jackboot in their neck as they are just a tool, Hamas is getting softer et voila! presto the IJ
I'm not saying you support terrorism, or that offering excuses is the same thing as supporting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Probably a mix of more powerful weapons, incompetence, and the fact that the Palestinian terrorists they target live among civilians, not on army bases.Quote:
As Israel has killed far, far more civilans than the Palestinans ever have, I would be inclined to say, then, that the IDF is either directly targeting civilians or are simply so incompetant in the use of their weapons that they are hitting everything and everyone except who they are shooting at. Take your pick.
Indeed. But thrown rocks are different from regime supported killings, and Orthodox neighborhoods make up only part of Israel.Quote:
Yeah... put on hot pants and a pink t-shirt and go for a walk through an orthodox neighbourhood in Israel. See how many rocks bounce on your head on that one.
They want to? They want a constant state of strife? I find that hard to believe.Quote:
Besides, even if the Palestinians didn't throw a single rock for a whole year, they would still have the Isreali jackboot on their necks. The Isrealis don't subjugate the Palestinians because they have to, they subjugate them because they want to.
And I don't think the bigots and racists who denied Black people their God-given rights should have been met with non-violence.Quote:
I support an increase in their violent resistence. I just want that violence targeted with more discretion. I don't think people who enslave others, who murder others, and who torture others should be met with flowers.
But that approach worked. It showed the righteousness of the civil-rights movement, and the barbarity of the bigots.
The violent resistance by Palestinians accomplishes nothing. Violence targeted at the IDF will accomplish nothing, because the Palestinian leadership is incapable of attacking the IDF in any significant way.
Surely you aren't referring to that 'aid ship flotilla' which turned out to be a bunch of activists looking to provoke Israel and waiting to ambush the IDF forces once they boarded.Quote:
Yeah, that might sound great on Oprah, but in real life where the Israelis will murder youf if you try to bring food and medicine to suffering people, those flowery words come off a bit... weak.
I'm not saying non-violent resistance is easy. But the Palestinians haven't tried it. But Israel could not continue if the world saw them really murdering people just trying to deliver food and medicine.
The words aren't weak. To follow through on them would, in fact, require great strength of character.
CR
Well, if that is the road we are going to travel then I could say you excuse the murder of Palestinian children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
And yet Israel conducts regime supported killings and they have no-go neighbourhoods for homosexuals. Hmmmm... that looks pretty bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It works to their advantage. They get to play their decades-long victim routine, and they hide behind that as an excuse to (continue to) steal land and resources from the Palestinians. Treat the Palestinians like animals in the hopes they behave like animals because no one cares what you do to animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
In that case the US bigots were in the minority. The Palestinians have to face Israel and the US and Canada and all the other puppet countries that toe the Israeli line no matter what Israel does. That's a big enemy for the Palestinians to go toe to toe with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Better than just sitting back and letting them murder people and keep the rest imprisoned for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Bringing food and medicine to suffering people. Such a provocation!Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I wonder if I'll be shot for donating canned soup to the local food bank.
Isreal has been murdering innocent people for decades. But since the US and Canadian government's noses are so far up Israel's keester, Isreal gets away with murder because our idiot governments back Israel up no matter who they kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
No. But I heard 'stone a homosexual' is a Palestinian favourite. Palestine is far more backwards than Israel is by a mile so your comments are pretty redundant.Quote:
And yet Israel conducts regime supported killings and they have no-go neighbourhoods for homosexuals. Hmmmm... that looks pretty bad.
No.Quote:
It works to their advantage. They get to play their decades-long victim routine, and they hide behind that as an excuse to (continue to) steal land and resources from the Palestinians. Treat the Palestinians like animals in the hopes they behave like animals because no one cares what you do to animals.
No. Israel has to face the other countries in the region who want to wipe Israel "off the face of the world", it is a good thing that more enlightened nations are able to support Israel.Quote:
In that case the US bigots were in the minority. The Palestinians have to face Israel and the US and Canada and all the other puppet countries that toe the Israeli line no matter what Israel does. That's a big enemy for the Palestinians to go toe to toe with.
No. Because I thought you was meant to be commenting on Israel and not Hamas here?Quote:
Better than just sitting back and letting them murder people and keep the rest imprisoned for life.
No. The whole 'aid' was a publicity stunt and they were carrying weapons and illegal contraband. Even a BBC (who is pro-Palestinian if anything) during a Panorama investigation revealed this. The whole thing was a plot to discredit Israel.Quote:
Bringing food and medicine to suffering people. Such a provocation!
I wonder if I'll be shot for donating canned soup to the local food bank.
No. Because you are simply just talking nonsense.Quote:
Isreal has been murdering innocent people for decades. But since the US and Canadian government's noses are so far up Israel's keester, Isreal gets away with murder because our idiot governments back Israel up no matter who they kill.
You are clearly not knowing what you are talking about and there is no 'debate' when you just regurgitate nonsense. On the other-hand, there are posters here with "more of a clue" because they actually been to Palestine and Israel first-hand and actually knows what is going on more indepth. I have visited Palestine and Israel, I do know what the conditions there are like. Things were actually far better off for the Palestinians before they turned to terrorism. Palestinian used to be the bulk of the labour force in Israel, now Israeli's have to look towards the Far-east like the Philippines for immigrant labour. The Israel has valid justification for the territory and even attempted to please the Palestinian and Arabian nations. however, they are unwilling to ensure security and that is something Israel wants, due to the muslim-backed terrorism in the area.
Yes. And I don't think I was talking to you anyway, though I always enjoy your posts. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yes. And there are similar Jewish religious quotes like the one you used. And there are parts of Israeli society where women's rights are stone age to say the least. So "backwards" is everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yes. Isreal has massive support and uses every opportunity, through coercion, to make sure that support is loud and generous. The myth of Israeli fragility is a myth used, to good effect, as camouflage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yes. I was commenting on the inhuman brutality of the Israelis towards the Palestinians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yes. People were ambushed and murdered by Israeli forces for the crime of bringing food and medicine to suffering people.It's as simple as that. Might as well blame Martin Luther King for being beaten while marching for civil rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yes. I am speaking the truth. You may not want to hear it, but I cannot help that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
And all this time I thought it was you regurgitating nonsense. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
The situation is as clear as the summer sun; a nuclear superpower aided and abetted by the world's superpower, is keeping an entire people locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions. Israel can pump out all the PR and excuses it wants, but in the end it is guilty of running concentration camps and violating the human rights of millions with illegal detentions, torture, theft, and murder. Candy coat it all you want, Isreal is guilty as sin.
Hahah, no they didn't. Israeli forces were ambushed and were shot at by "Peaceful Protestors", which forced the Israeli to completely change tactics and end up fighting back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
No, you are not saying the truth at all and it is nothing to do with me hearing it. Infact, I used to have a position similar to yours until I visited Palestine myself and actually discovered the truths about the situation, ask the other users here about that. I am not "deaf" to anything, I realized I was wrong and changed opinion.Quote:
Yes. I am speaking the truth. You may not want to hear it, but I cannot help that.
Except they are not locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions. I have been there, spoken and walked with Palestinians there, while you are sat in your armchair in Canada being spoonfed biased information.Quote:
The situation is as clear as the summer sun; a nuclear superpower aided and abetted by the world's superpower, is keeping an entire people locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions.
Israel is no knight in shining armour and I have never said that, but it is definitely the lesser of the two evils.Quote:
Israel can pump out all the PR and excuses it wants, but in the end it is guilty of running concentration camps and violating the human rights of millions with illegal detentions, torture, theft, and murder. Candy coat it all you want, Isreal is guilty as sin.
Change tactics? You mean the heavily armed Israeli soldiers who conducted a surprise helicopter attack on that boat went there with love in their hearts and then, seeing that some people won't put up with their Gestapo tactics, had to - wait for it - "change tactics", and the soldiers actually had to use the weapons they brought with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
How terrible for those poor soldiers. :no:
And you will realize once more that you are wrong and change your opinion again, that's the beauty of it. :idea2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
So the decades long incarceration of the Palestinians is a myth? The thousands of innocent Palestinians killed by Israel never existed? The countless hundreds of bombed out building in Gaza aren't really there? So we're free to bring food and medicine to the Palestinians without being murdered by Israeli special forces?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Next time your in Gaza, tell the Palestinians that. They'll be greatly relieved to hear your version of the truth.
The Zionists started the evil and the Israelis perpetuate it. The Palestinians are the victims of Isreal, Isreal's puppets in other countries, and of the Arab states. The Palestinians are treated worse than animals and under Israeli orders, they are told to be seen as animals as well. I ain't buying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
The second fattest people of the planet get free food, free electricity, free medicine, and wish I had that much choice when looking for a 5 star holiday resort nearby. And still they can't control their need to kill. Here we would say thanks for the food, the medicine, the electricity, the pools, the huge manors
edit: unlike Beskar I haven't been there, but I do know people from there, including ex Hamas, who do you think they are really scared of.
You pleasantly surprise me Beskar Israel is no knight in shining armour indeed, but it really does not deserve the hate.
No, the Palestinian territories (including Gaza) is not the second fattest country in the world.
Nor are they a country, doesn't change that they are pretty well fed. Too well without aid they would starve. I would be infinitely be more cruel towards them then the Israeli's would ever dream of, I would simply let them to their own devices. They can't, they will die, and I couldn't care one bit. ByebyeQuote:
Originally Posted by The Mad Arab
ah........ the very definition of inquisitive human endeavor. intellectual inflexibility combined with ideological purity is not a happy combination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
If you have any love for humanity how about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo I'm a humanist at heart, that's why I want to kill a fewQuote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
edit, she doesn't even know her own religion, that lamb was poisened to make sure teh mo was really a prophet, and it came back to life to warn him gawd. I know that. and I'm a europian
And what planet might that be, dear sir?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Here are a few more humans for you to love: The Gestapo of the Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RbtKW1hhQw
Nice try, what about the Fotillas, you aren't onto me in any argument as I'd shoot them and watch them drown. Whithout feeling all that bad at all. Want to kill, fine if you do, your choice not mine but not rolling over, that is Israels take on thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That video shows the Israeli navy bullying and threatening some fishermen, they don't even attempt to board and search the ship.
It doesn't matter where those fishermen are from, if the Navy has a problem with them being there they can board the ship, show some kind of document that says you can't fish here and then send them away.
There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of thing they pull off in the video except that they're a bunch of trigger happy hateful :daisy: .
Israel's take on things may be not to roll over but the Palestinians have the same take on things since it has been shown again and again that Israel builds settlements in Palestinian areas, what's not to understand about the fact that that is illegal and wrong? I certainly don't want Israel to vanish but if a government starts to sanction and encourage bullying, violence and breaking laws then something is horribly wrong in that country. The same goes for every country of course, it's not like the Hamas government is any better with all the firing of rockets into cities.
So you are saying your inclination towards cold blooded murder is what puts you on the side of virtue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That's very Al-Queda of you.
So? Screw them, haters killed npQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Sounds to me like you are as full of hate as any of the "haters" you say should be killed. And not only do you sound like you are full of hate, but you have expressed a willingness to kill civilians for no other reason than you don't like them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the exact same ideological stance taken by those who dress up in C4 and go for rides on buses full of woman and children?
Don't we have a name for those people?
Ha, you sympathise with haters and accuse me of hate, a lack of of sympathy yes, preciously littleQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
edit: the transports and gas, who's idea was it anyway? Call me nazi all you want, at least I would be a relaltiively good person when compared. Hitler and the Mufti both agreed they were put on earth for a reason, there is also a reason he's still so popular in camelland. Do I hate, yes, until the molecular structure of their bones
To return to a small debate a few pages ago.
Palestine is not recognised a country, so it doesn't show up in many country rankings. The West Bank and Gaza however sometimes do:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The new shopping mall which opened in Gaza last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbKxiQbJ9U0
The 'Crazy Water Park' which opened in Gaza last year.
It served the privileged in Gaza, of whch there are quite a few. Masked men burned down the park because men and women were allowed to mingle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU5NmRkaIt4&feature=related
Ha they can't see them anyway it's of no use posting links
I just find it interesting that you would say you decry terrorism and stand for freedom and civilization; and yet while doing so you brag that you would shoot civilians and watch them drown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I think you could understand that some people might find that a bit... you know.
What a lovely tenet to base an ideology and country upon. Will there be slavery or genocide first? Shall the blacks get in line right off or should the crippled go before them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
muhaha haven't decided yet, the crippled blacks I guess. Your buddies have though, they made up their minds decades ago. They aren't even lying about it please, typical, the gutmensch believes everything Hamas says, except when they say they want to kill jews because they are jews. Screw all that, but fine you can call me a nazi (or Suzy) SIEG LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
It's not what I call you that matters. What matters is who you are. Given your stated delight in killing people...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You and your friends seem to have become exactly like the people who persecuted you decades ago and who had to be driven off by others.
Next time we won't bother.
Beirut why don't you go out to take a dump in the woods and leave your best arguments there, a Reductio ad Hitlerum is soooooo pathetic. It doesn't even bother me it bores me. But I'll play, you said the rockets should be aimed, aimed at who? You know they aren't very accurate, might hit the wrong people even when really aiming them, you know thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I haven't forgotten what you said in a thread I made about the nature of a grudge, it's what keeps you warm at night good for you.
Well, it is in the nature of my work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Things always look worse in Latin. But you'll be alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The soldiers who murder Palestinians under the cover of official orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
What keeps me warm at night is my wife. Though a grudge might talk less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Israel is an evil state. It is a malignancy in the region. The majority of good Israelis are done a great disservice by their evil government. There will never be peace until modern Israel ceases to exist and is replaced by a non-apartheid government. Palestinians should learn from the non-violent resistance in Egypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Left out a bit, these rockets aren't accurate they can hit anything, so you can't really care about what gets hit. Hamas doesn't. They do care when they finally get one back. These actually are accurate so they use human shields for maximal outrage, and it works. People who will always solemny declare they condemn all violence but never do are once again beyond comfortingQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
@Tuff Israeli arabs have the highest standard of living in the middle-east. They aren't as well-fed as the Palestinians though but then again 99% of the world isn't
Perhaps. I excuse such things by saying that is unintended collateral damage (often because the terrorists hide out near civilians). You excuse terrorist attacks aimed at children by saying Palestinians have a lot of reasons to hate Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
And are those Israeli state killings targeted at people for the crime of being homosexual? If not, why are you equating Israel targeting and killing terrorists with Palestinians targeting and killing homosexuals?Quote:
And yet Israel conducts regime supported killings and they have no-go neighbourhoods for homosexuals. Hmmmm... that looks pretty bad.
I doubt that, especially that they desire a state of endless conflict in order to steal the 'resources' of the Palestinians. Do you think they desire and endless state of war with rockets fired at their homes, forever? What human would want that?Quote:
It works to their advantage. They get to play their decades-long victim routine, and they hide behind that as an excuse to (continue to) steal land and resources from the Palestinians. Treat the Palestinians like animals in the hopes they behave like animals because no one cares what you do to animals.
The west bank and gaza are among the fattest people in the world. Hardly starving refugees.
Were they in the minority in the south? The civil rights movement changed the minds of people outside the area of discrimination, and it was those outsiders who ended segregation.Quote:
In that case the US bigots were in the minority. The Palestinians have to face Israel and the US and Canada and all the other puppet countries that toe the Israeli line no matter what Israel does. That's a big enemy for the Palestinians to go toe to toe with.
And no, the USA and Canada would not back Israel no matter what.
NO.Quote:
Better than just sitting back and letting them murder people and keep the rest imprisoned for life.
"Sitting back" as you call it could END THE VIOLENCE. You think it unfair that the Palestinians would have to suffer while not striking back, but surely the peace would be worth it. Now, which is better, an endless futile struggle from the Palestinians or an end to the strife and their bad situation? You speak at length about what the Israelis do to the Palestinians, but do you care more about ending the Palestinians' suffering or seeing Israel suffer?
CR
Uh, let me get this straight: the guy (you) who brags that he wants to kill civilians is parsing my statements to imply that maybe, perhaps, there's a chance that I don't care if civilians get hurt even though I have repeatedly said civilians should not be targeted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I applaud you for your active imagination if not your reading skills.
I would have absolutely sunk that Flottilla yes, watching them drown was a bit much but I'm a poet at heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Again, you said these rockets should be aimed, but these rockets aren't accurate but you still say they shouldn't hit civilians. Que? Is that a new approach to making sense. Almost as silly as condemning violence from both sides without ever actually doing so.
Duh, guys, it's the same old arguments and they're still as bad as they were back then.
Israel may cause collateral damage, that would be fine if they didn't do it to defend illegal settlements that they built on the razed former homes of Palestinians.
The israeli settlers who "train" their children to throw stones at palestinian children while the army watches hardly prove that Israel is only in it because it was attacked, that's all a load of rubbish.
The Palestinians on the other hand fire homemade rockets into israeli cities, that's a terrorist attack, it's nowhere near a targeted attack on military, they also send their children to blow themselves up in israeli buses, trams and cafes, hardly places where you expect military, they're using prolonged terrorist scare tactics which obviously don't soften up the Israelis but make them harder and harder, they also "train" their kids to throw stones at israelis.
To say that either side just wants to live in peace is also rubbish, there are enough people on both sides who don't want peace that there is none and while I believe that both sides may have people who do want peace, they are obviously not getting through on too many levels, either because they're too quiet or because they're drowned out by those who prefer war.
This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.
Or...wait for it...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Of course Israel is better, the Arabs aren't all dead are they. It absolutely puzzles me why people despise the jews so much. What did they ever do to deserve it? A few settlements? Much worse things have happened, like being absolutely massacred in Jordania by these sick Phalanx lot absolute scum, christians by the way, murderers and rapists, got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi) surely they must have had a reason as well
Just musing, Europeans dehumanise the jews because that's easier than admitting what has happened. Israel is a nice excuse, somwhere, somehow. We all know it wasn't just the Nazi's.
For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.
are you sure? do you occupy a position of any political or social influence and have you ever displayed any ideological impurity? The Gulag archipelago might be waiting for you..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Not realy I dont think college students were randomly rounded up and sent to concentration camps under the Nazi's unless they acted up and as far as apperances go I'm pretty average, as long as I dont do anything to tick off the local SS I should be fine.
The point, and it really is the point, is that until the Palestinians are free there can never be any progress. And the conditions of that freedom cannot be dictated by the jailers who have kept them locked up for generations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
It is illogical and immoral to dispossess and imprison a people, cut them off from the world, treat them like animals, and then say "Maybe we'll give you a day pass now and then if you submit more appropriately".
The incarceration of the Palestinians is unprecedented in the modern world. Only South African apartheid approaches it in brutality and inhumanity. And it was not for the black South Africans "to behave" that was a prerequisite to their being freed; being freed had to come first. It was their incarceration that was the root of the evils that plagued both sides.
Fine, not my idea of being fine. Wouldn't you give a crap. I'm not fine with it it disgusts me. you just don't mindlessly kill other human beings, unless they think it's a good thing of course, screw these as they are flawedQuote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
...Fine as in surviving. Guilt tripper. Think about it; stalin starved and killed many of his own people indiscriminately, "ones a tradgedy a million's a statisitc" remember, whereas nazi's killed you for being jewish/gay/black/not white but left you alone otherwise. I was saying that I would prefer germany than russia if that was the only choice. If given the chance in that situation I would have run for the USA and never looked back but with only those two as choices I'll take my chances with the guys who aren't as eager to kill people in the demographic I am in.
While it doesn't excuse the actions of the Israeli government, we in the West have a big misconception about the biggest issue in the conflict - the 'we were there first' argument.
Israeli's are not all aggressive colonists stealing land from the native Palestinians. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza strip are almost entirely descended from immigrants from the Arab nations that came after the early Jewish settlers transformed the land and created work. And then decided they wanted a country of their own.
Even in Louix Theroux's documentary last night, it showed how the Palestinians treated the Jewish settlers in East Jerusalem. Even though these settlers are deemed illegal and seen as taking historic Palestian land, that part of the city had in fact been taken in an Arab pogrom a few decades ago.
Fundamentally, the Jews have just as much claim to that land as the Arabs, probably more.
But you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Perhaps a week or two of quiet reflection in a peaceful enviroment would allow you to gather your thoughts and express them with more... precision, and intellectual honesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Well, you tell me; werent the people who invaded and occupied your country decades ago exactly the kind of people who would have looked at a boat full of civilians and said: "I'd shoot them and watch them down. Without feeling all that bad at all."Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Good thing a bunch of people didn't share that point of view and came over and pulled your fat out of the fire.
The Palestinians deserve to be saved just as your people were.
Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?
What are you omn about? Who here despises the jews? And it's not "just some settlements" when they raze your house and your whole existance to the ground to build it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That they were massacred by anyone is completely irrelevant as two wrongs don't make a right. And if you want to make it relevant then I'm going to say exactly because the jews suffered so much, they should know better than to make others suffer, the inability to do that only makes them look like they didn't learn anything or have become heartless and hateful themselves.
The Palpatine vs. Sauron was an attempt to not use what I mentioned in spoilers but I had to make sure everyone gets it so I tried not to go for people noone knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The whole comparison was only valid in the sense that they were both evil or are you going to argue that either of them was good and deserved to be supported?
No, I just kinda like rooting for the villians. And palpatine was one heck of a villian.
Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.
It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.
Subjugation of the French? In Quebec?Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Pardon me while I laugh uproariously.
:laugh4:
Yeah yeah, and Hitler really liked dogs, you like dogsQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.
Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
At least we understand each other. :smiley:
I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I wouldn't want to drag this thread into a debate about the English conquest of French America, nor interrupt your laughing uproariously. But a quick comparison could serve to explore the topic further.
Several decades after the conquest, the English conquerers etnically cleansed the Canadian maritime provinces. A third of Frenchmen were killed outright. The remaining ones fled. They still exist. The Cajuns. Do you agree that these French refugees should be returned the lands from which the English occupiers expelled them? There are several million of them.
What, except for a century and a half, is the difference between you and an Israeli colonist?
What are you planning to put on the rockets that should be aimed, confetti? Don't want to kill by the way, don't really care if others do. I do care about the Iranian students who are hanged, I care about the beautiful women who are treated like beasts, I couldn't care less about the Palestinians though, got enough friends anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Both sides have grievances against the other. Both have shed the blood of innocents.
It is now nothing more than a grudge match and unlikely to end without more bloodshed.
Two wrongs don’t make a right and degrees of guilt don’t make a lot of difference to most people.
And the kid that touches a hot plate on the oven cannot learn anything either? And people generally never learn anything in life? Can we not learn anything from the Holocaust and the third Reich either or is it just the jews who are excused?Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
And that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
There are no two wrongs, one side is determined to go all the way, they will settle for nothing less than total extermination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Well, let's see... though English and though born here, I was schooled in French, always worked in French, got my required licenses (gun, driver, rent-a-cop) in French, opened a business with a French name as required by law, all the government, tax, and business documentation needing to be done in French as required by law, defended myself in French in a French speaking court system, voted for provicial politicians who were all French, and voted in democratic referendums held by French speaking people wanting Quebec to become an independent country. (What other repressive country like Canada allows for it's subjugated peoples to take a big chunck of land and leave whenever they want to, nothing required but a democratitic vote.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Oh, and when I got cut open and sewed back together again last year... yep, that's right - all in French.
Now, tell unto me once more of the subjugations suffered here, would you please?
And at the moment the other side has the upper hand and is dictating events to a large degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Past actions of both parties are indefensible.
Meaning anything, let them relish their hate, kindly keep giving a reason to shoot back. A school for disabled kids was hit few weeks ago, these sadistic bastards. The only reason they shouldn't all be killed is that their children are innocent, they should remember thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking