The Elephant in the room.

If you can find a way to keep only the "bad" immigrants out, while letting all the "good" ones in, I'll be your campaign manager, believe me.

As such a thing seems impossible, however, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep the many responsible for the actions of the few.

As an illustration of how ridiculous IA's emotional appeal is, consider the alternative version. Find a happy family, preferably with half a dozen children, where one parents is a native and the other an immigrant. Take a picture of the children with eyes like only innocent children can have, and add a text underneath that goes something along the lines of this:

"If you restrict immigration, my mommy and poppy would never have found love and happiness. I would not exist. Why, Mr. right-winger, don't you want children like me to be born and live a happy life?"

In short, a really, really low cheap shot.

Before or after I kick him in the face, we owe the world nothing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If you can find a way to keep only the "bad" immigrants out, while letting all the "good" ones in, I'll be your campaign manager, believe me.

As such a thing seems impossible, however, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep the many responsible for the actions of the few.

As an illustration of how ridiculous IA's emotional appeal is, consider the alternative version. Find a happy family, preferably with half a dozen children, where one parents is a native and the other an immigrant. Take a picture of the children with eyes like only innocent children can have, and add a text underneath that goes something along the lines of this:

"If you restrict immigration, my mommy and poppy would never have found love and happiness. I would not exist. Why, Mr. right-winger, don't you want children like me to be born and live a happy life?"

In short, a really, really low cheap shot.

---

The point is that these immigrants were not investigated properly for fear of committing offence. THAT is a direct result of left driven political correctness. If the police hadn't been kowtowed they would have done their job properly regardless of skin colour and creed.

Still find it ridiculous?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

The point is that these immigrants were not investigated properly for fear of committing offence. THAT is a direct result of left driven political correctness. If the police hadn't been kowtowed they would have done their job properly regardless of skin colour and creed.

Still find it ridiculous?

---

The point is that that particular accusation is a paranoid delusion without basis in reality.

The fact is that the police caught them, they were convicted and they were given a harsher sentence because of the culture you claim the police are forced to protect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The point is that that particular accusation is a paranoid delusion without basis in reality.

The fact is that the police caught them, they were convicted and they were given a harsher sentence because of the culture you claim the police are forced to protect.

---

Nope. Reality.

There have been reports of this sort of behaviour for years. Nothing was done about it and it was swept under the carpet. A Labour MP raised concerns about the lack of action five years or more ago in the House of Commons. There was a police investigation in Leeds earlier in the last decade that was quietly dropped.

Reality? Are you sure what it is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

If you can find a way to keep only the "bad" immigrants out, while letting all the "good" ones in, I'll be your campaign manager, believe me.

As such a thing seems impossible, however, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep the many responsible for the actions of the few.

As an illustration of how ridiculous IA's emotional appeal is, consider the alternative version. Find a happy family, preferably with half a dozen children, where one parents is a native and the other an immigrant. Take a picture of the children with eyes like only innocent children can have, and add a text underneath that goes something along the lines of this:

"If you restrict immigration, my mommy and poppy would never have found love and happiness. I would not exist. Why, Mr. right-winger, don't you want children like me to be born and live a happy life?"

In short, a really, really low cheap shot.

---

This isn't about keeping people out, it's about what we do with them when they get here - and the side issue of whether they should be allowed to stay.

These men saw a fundamental difference between white girls and girls of their own ethnic/religious group. Worse, the group they single out is the native one which implies something about the way they see the rest of us.

This is a problem of lack of integration - while the white majority is encouraged to see everyone without regard to race or creed the minority groups coming in look down on our children because they are white.

These immigrants are inherrently racist - and I doubt the perverts are the only ones, just the most exploitative.

That is the problem.

Having said all that, we could restrict immigration based on economic circumstances - if your country's economy is in the toilet and you are coming over here to be a waiter, no dice, we don't need to import kitchen staff. On the other hand, if you're coming over to be a software engineer or a surgeon, or a chemist - please, feel welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

This isn't about keeping people out, it's about what we do with them when they get here - and the side issue of whether they should be allowed to stay.

These men saw a fundamental difference between white girls and girls of their own ethnic/religious group. Worse, the group they single out is the native one which implies something about the way they see the rest of us.

This is a problem of lack of integration - while the white majority is encouraged to see everyone without regard to race or creed the minority groups coming in look down on our children because they are white.

These immigrants are inherrently racist - and I doubt the perverts are the only ones, just the most exploitative.

That is the problem.

Having said all that, we could restrict immigration based on economic circumstances - if your country's economy is in the toilet and you are coming over here to be a waiter, no dice, we don't need to import kitchen staff. On the other hand, if you're coming over to be a software engineer or a surgeon, or a chemist - please, feel welcome.

---

That's your stance, one I haven't been arguing against.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Nope. Reality.

There have been reports of this sort of behaviour for years. Nothing was done about it and it was swept under the carpet. A Labour MP raised concerns about the lack of action five years or more ago in the House of Commons. There was a police investigation in Leeds earlier in the last decade that was quietly dropped.

Reality? Are you sure what it is?

---

How many times do I have to repeat the fact that these men were caught, sentenced and given additional penalty because of their "culture"?

They were allowed to get away with it for years.

Reverse the roles.

A gang of BNP skinheads went around 'grooming' young asian lasses, plying them with drink and passing them around like a bong. Do you really believe that nothing would be done for the best part of a decade?

Quote:

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A chance to stop the gang was missed in 2008 by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service who have apologised for failings. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is spearheading an investigation into the botched inquiry.

---

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...jail-1-4531005

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

How many times do I have to repeat the fact that these men were caught, sentenced and given additional penalty because of their "culture"?

---

The issue was first raised in 2002, a report was passed to the Police in 2005 - they were not arrested until 2010, no operation was underway to investigate the issue until 2009.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ed-to-act.html

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-18005266

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17853560

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...sentenced.html


There is an IPCC investigation on-going, this is an acknowledged issue now.

While we're here, let's look at this guy: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-abusers.html

He says it's a cultural problem - and presumably he's qualified to offer that opinion - but he also says it's not about religion or Pakistani culture - it's about how they see white girls.

That is, unfortunately, how sexual abuse is usually handled. They usually takes years, this case is rather normal. In cases involving minors, the norm is that nothing is done until the victims are well into their 20's, if indeed anything ever happens.

Thetheory about being overly sensitive to culture is simply an explanation which fits an existing negative view on immigrants, nothing more.

Water under the bridge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

That is, unfortunately, how sexual abuse is usually handled. They usually takes years, this case is rather normal. In cases involving minors, the norm is that nothing is done until the victims are well into their 20's, if indeed anything ever happens.

Thetheory about being overly sensitive to culture is simply an explanation which fits an existing negative view on immigrants, nothing more.

Water under the bridge.

---

I dissagree - your paradigm is flawed, because abuse that happened 30 years ago was covered up because that was the "done" thing - the institional abuse in Plymouth at a toddler group was acted on relatively swiftly once it was discovered - not after a decade or so.

Even more turmoil in Oslo today. Traffic jammed for hours, all because of someone who really doesn't belong there. Police had no other choice than shooting it as he was on fire.

Wth is a moose doing the middle of Oslo hehe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

That is, unfortunately, how sexual abuse is usually handled. They usually takes years, this case is rather normal. In cases involving minors, the norm is that nothing is done until the victims are well into their 20's, if indeed anything ever happens.

Thetheory about being overly sensitive to culture is simply an explanation which fits an existing negative view on immigrants, nothing more.

Water under the bridge.

---

The police didn't want to investigate in case fingers were wagged and pointed with accusations of racism. It's been like this since the Macpherson report. Probably the most damaging rotten report ever commissioned by Parliament. The idea that racism is in your head and not that of the other is Kafkaesque.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I dissagree - your paradigm is flawed, because abuse that happened 30 years ago was covered up because that was the "done" thing - the institional abuse in Plymouth at a toddler group was acted on relatively swiftly once it was discovered - not after a decade or so.

---

Sadly, that Plymouth incident you refer to is the exception.

Find the statistic for number of people convicted of rape. Then compare that to the estimated number of rapes per year. The stats are horrible.

The only unusual thing about this case, is that someone were actually convicted. The majority of rapes are simply not reported. The majority of the rapes who are reported, end up being dropped. The majority of those who do end up in court doesn't get a conviction. That's the state of sexual crime.

That's what should be discussed, not crackpot theories from fascists.

Being called a fascist is kinda becomming a badge of honour really, mentally block problem all you want, changes nada. It's a typical leftist mistake to confuse how they want things to be and what simply is. And what simply is is that white girls are targeted by muslim immigrants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Being called a fascist is kinda becomming a badge of honour really, mentally block problem all you want, changes nada. It's a typical leftist mistake to confuse how they want things to be and what simply is. And what simply is is that white girls are targeted by muslim immigrants.

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That was the case here, according to the judge who gave them a harder punishment because of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

That was the case here, according to the judge who gave them a harder punishment because of it.

---

They weren't exactly in a hurry to do so. There is an underlying problem here that simply needs to be adressed and that problem is muslim immigrants having absolutely no respect for western women, seeing them as whores that can be snatched at will. If you say that isn't a problem I really don't know what to say. If that makes me a fascist fine, it doesn't insult me in the slightest because I know how much it's worth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They weren't exactly in a hurry to do so. There is an underlying problem here that simply needs to be adressed and that problem is muslim immigrants having absolutely no respect for western women, seeing them as whores that can be snatched at will. If you say that isn't a problem I really don't know what to say. If that makes me a fascist fine, it doesn't insult me in the slightest because I know how much it's worth.

---

I suggest you reread the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I suggest you reread the thread.

---

I umderstand your position, they got trialed and sentenced. Looks good but only on the surface, the attitude towards women is in need of a serious overhaul in some communities. Sexual harrasment is a horrible thing, and rape is the worst of humiliations. It happens way too much and it are way too often men from a certain background.

I am not out for the muslims, just not looking away either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I umderstand your position, they got trialed and sentenced. Looks good but only on the surface, the attitude towards women is in need of a serious overhaul in some communities. Sexual harrasment is a horrible thing, and rape is the worst of humiliations. It happens way too much and it are way too often men from a certain background.

I am not out for the muslims, just not looking away either.

---

I am fully in favour of more feminism, and I know it's urgently needed among immigrants. We also need to be better at handling sexual crimes.

What I have a problem with in this thread is the nonsensical, completely unfounded and ridiculous accusation being made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

There have been reports of this sort of behaviour for years. Nothing was done about it and it was swept under the carpet. A Labour MP raised concerns about the lack of action five years or more ago in the House of Commons.?

---

And again: the only source for the accusation is Ann Cryer's words, and they were recently uttered apparently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I am fully in favour of more feminism, and I know it's urgently needed among immigrants. We also need to be better at handling sexual crimes.

What I have a problem with in this thread is the nonsensical, completely unfounded and ridiculous accusation being made.

---

Not unfounded it is your own police saying it. That's the rape part but the sad part is that women got kinda used to getting harrased, women dye their hair, don't wear skirts anymore. It's just racism. White women aren't the only victims, pregnant Marrocan women was attacked last week by 5 screwups because she was walking with a black, kicked the lights of her baby out. I think you mean well but don't really know what you are talking about.

26 march, actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

26 march, actually.

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Congratulations it's a fact. My bad it was reported last week

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not unfounded it is your own police saying it. That's the rape part but the sad part is that women got kinda used to getting harrased, women dye their hair, don't wear skirts anymore. It's just racism. White women aren't the only victims, pregnant Marrocan women was attacked last week by 5 screwups because she was walking with a black, kicked the lights of her baby out. I think you mean well but don't really know what you are talking about.

---

The accusation I referred to was not your misunderstanding of statistics and failure to read statements, but rather the one in the thread title.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Sadly, that Plymouth incident you refer to is the exception.

Find the statistic for number of people convicted of rape. Then compare that to the estimated number of rapes per year. The stats are horrible.

The only unusual thing about this case, is that someone were actually convicted. The majority of rapes are simply not reported. The majority of the rapes who are reported, end up being dropped. The majority of those who do end up in court doesn't get a conviction. That's the state of sexual crime.

That's what should be discussed, not crackpot theories from fascists.

---

We are talking about under-age rape by an organised ring of abusers - a very distinct type of rape which is much easier to detect and prosecute than your communal-garden rape which tends to happen within relationships and involve both parties being intoxicated.

I've seen the statistics - I don't entirely buy into the standard interpretattion because they ignore that A: a proportion of rape reports will be malicious, and afterwards retracted or fall apart, and B: a proportion will be simply impossible to prove one way or the other, likely because the act was not itself clear cut. Added to that, unreported rapes are just that - unreported. If 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 women are "survivors" then at least 1 in 6 men much be rapists, and I frankly don't buy that.

Quote:

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Trevor Phillips, the chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said the fact that the men convicted were Asian and their victims white could not be ignored.

He expressed concern that the men came from closed communities which may have turned a blind eye to what was happening - either out of fear or because the girls concerned were from a different community.

And he said it would be a national scandal if it turned out the authorities had failed to intervene to protect the children because of fears that it would lead to the "demonisation" of the Asian community.

---

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-relevant.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-relevant.html

---

he might be right, but i really don't care about the racial element.

what matters to me is that we are continueing to import, and incubate, cultures which appear to have a vastly higher proclivity to violent and socially divisive crime.

first principles: is the welfare and wellbeing of her majesty's subjects being advanced by this activity?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I umderstand your position, they got trialed and sentenced. Looks good but only on the surface, the attitude towards women is in need of a serious overhaul in some communities. Sexual harrasment is a horrible thing, and rape is the worst of humiliations. It happens way too much and it are way too often men from a certain background.

I am not out for the muslims, just not looking away either.

---

You would probably do better by not going for the Muslim angle at all. It's not because they Muslims, it's because they've got backward traditions. Christian minorities are about as bad if coming from the same area, and Muslims from other areas aren't a problem.

It's way more accurate and is harder to make a counter argument about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ironside

You would probably do better by not going for the Muslim angle at all. It's not because they Muslims, it's because they've got backward traditions. Christian minorities are about as bad if coming from the same area, and Muslims from other areas aren't a problem.

It's way more accurate and is harder to make a counter argument about.

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But... Backward tradition and religion, isn't that kind of the same thing?

The secular Iranians who came to Sweden during the cultural revolution has done well here, the muslim Iranians who has come lately - not so much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

But... Backward tradition and religion, isn't that kind of the same thing?

The secular Iranians who came to Sweden during the cultural revolution has done well here, the muslim Iranians who has come lately - not so much.

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Well religion isn't inherently backward, at some points in history it could be seen as quite a progressive force (as much as I dislike the terms 'backward' and 'progressive', but you know what I mean).

It just so happens that Muslim immigrants happen to follow a religion (or at least an interpretation of it) that demands that they adhere to principles that we might find barbaric and repulsive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr

Well religion isn't inherently backward, at some points in history it could be seen as quite a progressive force (as much as I dislike the terms 'backward' and 'progressive', but you know what I mean).

It just so happens that Muslim immigrants happen to follow a religion (or at least an interpretation of it) that demands that they adhere to principles that we might find barbaric and repulsive.

---

My bad, "religion" was a poor choice of word. I should have been more specified.

Some religions are not.

However, you know that I have a hard time seeing a muslim or a christian and think they are not backwards. "Backwards" as in basing their lives around books written several hundred years ago.

You are of course right that both religions started out as progressive movements, but once they held a position of power the progression quickly died, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

However, you know that I have a hard time seeing a muslim or a christian and think they are not backwards. "Backwards" as in basing their lives around books written several hundred years ago.

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Works of Archimedes are thousands of years old, that does not make them backward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Works of Archimedes are thousands of years old, that does not make them backward.

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Well, he was a scientist. He took his field of study further, and he could prove every step of his academical path. Scientists today still revise his work, and try to better it (as with PI).

So yes, of course he is not invalid just because he died several hundred years ago, as his work hold up to modern scrutiny. PI is still PI, and Archimedes himself would probably applaud the people who question his work and try to make it better.


That is not the same as a guy writing something about virgin birth, and then his followers being ready to go to extremes against anyone questioning it.



A slight difference, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Works of Archimedes are thousands of years old, that does not make them backward.

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If you make Archimedes work alone the basis for everything you do in life, then yes, that would be backwards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If you make Archimedes work alone the basis for everything you do in life, then yes, that would be backwards.

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Do Christians base their life solely on the Bible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Do Christians base their life solely on the Bible?

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Some do, most don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Some do, most don't.

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Which means that most aren't backward by this logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Which means that most aren't backward by this logic.

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Never said they were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

However, you know that I have a hard time seeing a muslim or a christian and think they are not backwards. "Backwards" as in basing their lives around books written several hundred years ago.

---

I understand that. I guess it just depends on what parts of the Bible you are talking about. Refusing to make clothing out of a mixture of wool and linen would seem a bit silly nowadays.

On the other hand at least some of the ideas of marriage and things like that can surely still be relevant to contemporary life?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

You are of course right that both religions started out as progressive movements, but once they held a position of power the progression quickly died, no?

---

But isn't this just a feature of any ideology or group that takes power? They can either try to hold onto power by maintaining the status quo, or they can try to stay relevant by adapting and going with the flow. Religious institutions have done both these things, even the Catholic Church adapted in response to the Reformation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

My bad, "religion" was a poor choice of word. I should have been more specified.

Some religions are not.

However, you know that I have a hard time seeing a muslim or a christian and think they are not backwards. "Backwards" as in basing their lives around books written several hundred years ago.

You are of course right that both religions started out as progressive movements, but once they held a position of power the progression quickly died, no?

---

I think that you can't really look at religions as "regressive" when much of what their founders were railing against is mirrored in modern society. Jesus was basically setting himself against a culture which valued money and material possesions and glorified sex and violence.

That could just as easily describe Western culture today.


As an athetic and moral and spritual teacher the figure of Jesus is just as relevent today as it was then, and the circumstances of his birth are no more or less credible.

The problem with the concept of "progression" is that it concieves of civilisation traveling a line from start to finsih, and the further along the line we are the better our society. That kind of view took hold in the Renaissance and in philosophy and history it has been fairly well ripped to shreds - but it persists in the popular imagination.

I think there is definately a debate to be had about how we deal with sex in the West, especially in the Anglo-Sphere, but also now in the Franco-Sphere after the Strass-Kahn scandals.

I have to say, as a student of intellectual history that much of what is touted as "revolutionary" today has been done to death before, and if these "philosophers" had actually read their predecessors they would not waste quite so much time trying to re-invent the wheel.

Having said all that, I don't think the problem here is that these men are Muslim, I think the problem is how they view non-Muslims in a non-Muslim country (the UK).

One thing you see with these immigrant communities is how incredibly touchy and insecure some parts of them can be. The London bombings, for example, were as much an expression of cultural angst as they were any kind of political statement.

Quote:

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I think that you can't really look at religions as "regressive" when much of what their founders were railing against is mirrored in modern society. Jesus was basically setting himself against a culture which valued money and material possesions and glorified sex and violence.

That could just as easily describe Western culture today.

---

This might be one of the best Christian arguments I have seen in my life.




Rhy, Philips, I will answer you as soon as I have the time to do it properly :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

This might be one of the best Christian arguments I have seen in my life.




Rhy, Philips, I will answer you as soon as I have the time to do it properly :)

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I come here to practice, nice to know it's recognised.

I should also say that you are fundamentally correct in that many religions, perhaps especially Christianity, do handle power well - a faith which originated with slaves and vagrant preachers doesn't sit well with Emperors.

...And was brought to prominence by Constantine, who then moved the religion to be centred in Rome. Who then picked the whole hierarchy.

Christianity can be about God, but the higher churches (a misnomer if ever there was one) are far more focused on money, power and control.

~:smoking:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

...And was brought to prominence by Constantine, who then moved the religion to be centred in Rome. Who then picked the whole hierarchy.

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About 0% of that is statistically correct.

Constantine, if anything, "moved" it to Constantinople, he could not "bring it to prominence" because it was already so prominent he basiaclly needed to convert to secure the Empire and he had absolutely no way to choose the "whole hierarchy" because there wasn't one.

The only thing Constantine could, and did, do was evict Bishops from the cities containing their Sees - which was not really an effective tool for shutting them up, it didn't stop Athanasius, it didn't even stop Arrian.

I'll just say one thing and leave it at that: not everything Muslims do is Islamic. That'll be all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hax

I'll just say one thing and leave it at that: not everything Muslims do is Islamic. That'll be all.

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Fair enough, but if their identity as Muslims causes them to set themselves apart from majority "Christians", is that Islamic?

Wouldn't this whole absurd debate we all know the answer to come to a swift end were we able to produce some examples of muslim men raping uslim women in manners that do not include family honor/debt type incidents. Like, how many incidents in the UK are there where muslim men rape muslim women for the sake of jollies?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Wouldn't this whole absurd debate we all know the answer to come to a swift end were we able to produce some examples of muslim men raping uslim women in manners that do not include family honor/debt type incidents. Like, how many incidents in the UK are there where muslim men rape muslim women for the sake of jollies?

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None reported?

One of the articles I linked to is a Muslim activist and one of the ings he said was, "Asian girls aren't available to them".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Wouldn't this whole absurd debate we all know the answer to come to a swift end were we able to produce some examples of muslim men raping uslim women in manners that do not include family honor/debt type incidents. Like, how many incidents in the UK are there where muslim men rape muslim women for the sake of jollies?

---

I don't think there are any stats that can answer your question. But assuming your point is: "are muslims less inclined to rape a muslim woman than a native European?"

There's no doubt in my mind that these people, or more probably their parents, originate from a backwards culture. Pakistan presumably has evolved socially since they left, but that went by them completely because they don't live there, and since they didn't integrate into their new country's culture very well, they essentially fossilized into the backwardsness they were in when they left their country of origin. I say that because this pretty much applies to the Dutch-Turkish community - quite often they came from the most underdeveloped parts of Turkey; and while Turkey nowadays is the poster-child for the "islamic countries can be civilized, too" argument, some of our ethnically turkish population is significantly less "enlightened" than that (allthough to their credit, Turks in the Netherlands generally cause less trouble than Morrocans)

No doubt that the pedophiles in the OP didn't respect women, or girls very much. But then again, I doubt that rapists and/or pedophiles in general do. They specifically targeted white girls, which to me suggests that either:
A) they thought that Allah would send them to hell for raping an underage muslim girl out of wedlock, but thought that doing the same to white non-muslim girls would be halal
B) girls from their own ethnic background are less available and more difficult to groom
C) they feared social backlash and stigma if they did this to their "own community", and thought that police attention was less likely if they targeted white girls
Personally I'm guessing a combination of B and C.

In any case, apart from how terrible this incident is, most of the outrage here seems to be at the as-of-yet unsubstantiated claim that the police decided years ago they shouldn't investigate this case because they feared someone might cry "racist!". I'm no fan of the so called multicultural ideology, but I simply don't buy that accusation when there's nothing to back that up.

MRD, that is not fair.

A muslim girl can, as I have understood it, not be raped.

If she has sex with someone she should not, it just means that the men responsible for her hasn't been controlling/protecting her enough, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

MRD, that is not fair.

A muslim girl can, as I have understood it, not be raped.

If she has sex with someone she should not, it just means that the men responsible for her hasn't been controlling/protecting her enough, no?

---

On one hand, yes, and if there are muslim-on-muslim rapes (that dont involve honer/revenge) then many of them don't get reported. I am leaving out the honor/revenge rapes because in most cases a non-muslim would not be a victim of such a thing so we remove it from the argument altogether since it is, in some cirlces, socially acceptable to punish women in this manner.

So yes, this can be considered a valid point, however, not every victim of muslim-on-muslim rape is going to come from a hard-line family that would keep it hush, and even if they did, I am sure there would be girls who depart from their family on these matters....

My point is that surely there are some examples of muslim men raping muslim women. There has to be in order to facilitate the idea that the victims in the OP crime were not chosen based on race/culture. I don't for a second by that it was just because they were easier victims to isolate. While this may be true, these guys also know that if they rape a muslim they would never even amke it to trial, and they have a fear of god that does not extend to victimizing infidels.

Show me the muslim rapes

Word.

I was just strengthening your point :yes:

I know. And I was stating that even with the cultural taboo of rape, some muslim girl somewhere in that country has to have had reported a rape at the hands of a muslim aggressor..... surely. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going on

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I know. And I was stating that even with the cultural taboo of rape, some muslim girl somewhere in that country has to have had reported a rape at the hands of a muslim aggressor..... surely. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going on

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They just get labled sluts and married off - there have been a few women who have subsequently come forward under condition of anonymity.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

But... Backward tradition and religion, isn't that kind of the same thing?

The secular Iranians who came to Sweden during the cultural revolution has done well here, the muslim Iranians who has come lately - not so much.

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And how many of those sucular Iranians are Muslim enough to be insulted by being bundled together with some backward tribalists?

Religion in those regions are also some kind of halfway thing. Rather than being very religious, they're being religious because they haven't experienced anything else. The real fundamentalists are a different breed, even if they can recruit easiest from those regions.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

No doubt that the pedophiles in the OP didn't respect women, or girls very much. But then again, I doubt that rapists and/or pedophiles in general do. They specifically targeted white girls, which to me suggests that either:
A) they thought that Allah would send them to hell for raping an underage muslim girl out of wedlock, but thought that doing the same to white non-muslim girls would be halal
B) girls from their own ethnic background are less available and more difficult to groom
C) they feared social backlash and stigma if they did this to their "own community", and thought that police attention was less likely if they targeted white girls
Personally I'm guessing a combination of B and C.

In any case, apart from how terrible this incident is, most of the outrage here seems to be at the as-of-yet unsubstantiated claim that the police decided years ago they shouldn't investigate this case because they feared someone might cry "racist!". I'm no fan of the so called multicultural ideology, but I simply don't buy that accusation when there's nothing to back that up.

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It has rather to do with excusing themself with madonna and whore mechanisms. Since white girls are sexually liberated, they have to be whores and whores are worthless people you can do anything with. And that their cultural manly role is threatened by equal and independent women, making them less than men (you can see men who are feeling this even native Scandinavians occationally) and that they aren't exactly the most successful people, they try to be successful by very basic and pathetic means of dominance and oppression.
Backwards as heck.

I'm curious for what the Koran talks about female and female sexuality and it's consequences for their social status. Something for our residental Koran expert perhaps?

How many did you date

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I'm curious for what the Koran talks about female and female sexuality and it's consequences for their social status. Something for our residental Koran expert perhaps?

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Well, I never read the Qur'an in its entirety, as I don't find it all that interesting, and I don't think there are any experts on tafsir here anyway, so yeah. I might try to find something about it.

Also, you should probably realise that the Qur'an on its own isn't sufficient in order to live a life in which religion is integrated into most aspects of your daily life. For that there are hadith (plural ahadith), but they are tricky in more than one way.

EDIT: Also, rape is a no-go area. There's no difference here between Muslims and non-Muslims. The classical interpretation is that rapists should be stoned to death.

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Originally Posted by Hax

EDIT: Also, rape is a no-go area. There's no difference here between Muslims and non-Muslims. The classical interpretation is that rapists should be stoned to death.

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Not true - it's not rape if you are in an urban area and no one discovers you, because she obviously didn't cry out - which means she must have consented.

That's a Judaeo-Islamic one, that.

Funnily enough, that edict functions on a paradigm similar to the Western one where the welfare of all women is the concern of all men.

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

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I'm sorry, yes you are correct.

I should have been more specific - the point I was making was in relation to this case, in an urban setting, and how the perpetrators (and perhaps some in their community) might see the situation.

I.e. the fact that these white girls don't immidiately scream blue murder makes them sluts.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

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If the victim has at least 3 Male witnisses (or was it five) it's 5:30 here and I need coffee, I am out of it. But if she doesn't have witnisses she will be killed or forced to marry. But that's in arabland not here

So the offending parties who are still "believers" change the definition of rape and magic! it's not rape, just as the offending parties who practice homosexuality change the definition of homosexuality and magic! it's not gay.

I also seem to recall qoran passages where guidelines are laid forth is dealing with the looted/captured belongings of the enemy. Again, not syaing these guys were waging a holy war, but if one were willing one could fit the rapage of an infidel into that acceptable definition. I seem to recall a few years ago when a giant debate erupted amongst the fundies about sexual activity during Ramadan, and there was quite a colorful debate about what did and did not constitute masterbation and sexual activity, and some of the moderates tho poked fun at this debate were murdered. People will always try to find a way around the rules, just look at the catholics

I thought I would bump this thread with more stories of wealthy muslim men abusing and exploiting young poor white girls. This example is sadly much bigger than we thought. It's not just confined to a small corner of northern England:

Muslims Traffick White Christian girls in multi-million dollar industry of exploitation

I might have got my races and religions mixed up. If so, please forgive - but I thought the matter of exploitation was more important than giving the muzzers a kicking... eh? What do you mean it wasn't?

I guess that changes everything! I heard eskimo's build iglo's that's just cold imho

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I thought I would bump this thread with more stories of wealthy muslim men abusing and exploiting young poor white girls. This example is sadly much bigger than we thought. It's not just confined to a small corner of northern England:

Muslims Traffick White Christian girls in multi-million dollar industry of exploitation

I might have got my races and religions mixed up. If so, please forgive - but I thought the matter of exploitation was more important than giving the muzzers a kicking... eh? What do you mean it wasn't?

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Looks like I waited until the appropriate moment to roll my eyes.

So what's your point?It happens to non-white women?Anyone here not know that?No? OK?Maybe we should talk about all the Muslim mem and women murdering their daughters for participating in Western culture instead.Another case is being tried as we speak.

With all due respect, Idaho, we are not giving a free pass to non-muslim criminals of this type.

The free pass, it seems, tends to come from the left in regards to things muslims say and do. Even here in the states, while we openly lambast christians and jehovas and catholics and baptists and scientologists, if you make some comments about muslims oh no you are a racist. All I ask is that everyone plays by the same set of rules and uses the same standards, and if these men chose these girls specifically because they were NOT muslim, then this issue needs to be addressed as it reflects a very real and dangerous line of thinking

Doesn't the fact that you can openly say just about anywhere (which is what happens) that you can't criticise Islam kind of telling of the fact that you can and indeed should criticise Islam?

I don't know what you mean by "just about anywhere." It certainly doesn't come from the run-of-the-mill US news agencies or pundits, and just because I can doesn't mean I won't be labeled as a racist prick for doing so. Not mutually exclusive, the two. This goes far deeper than just the topic at hand, in regards to american journalism, who has taken to leaving out the race and ethnicity of crime suspects in news stories where it is completely relevant, in an effort to promote "diversity."

Basically, Hax, I want to see Islam treated in pop culture and news reporting the same way the other religions are, and I want to see muslims suck it up and take it

What do you mean by race and ethnicity?

Also, to what extent is this actually true? I mean, especially with the idea that we have of America is that you can say anything anywhere all the time, so do you have any situations in which it's evident that media outlets avoid mentioning Islam and/or Muslims?

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

With all due respect, Idaho, we are not giving a free pass to non-muslim criminals of this type.

The free pass, it seems, tends to come from the left in regards to things muslims say and do. Even here in the states, while we openly lambast christians and jehovas and catholics and baptists and scientologists, if you make some comments about muslims oh no you are a racist. All I ask is that everyone plays by the same set of rules and uses the same standards, and if these men chose these girls specifically because they were NOT muslim, then this issue needs to be addressed as it reflects a very real and dangerous line of thinking

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I don't think muslim criminals get any more of a free ride than christian ones. The point is that many on this board want to make the case that muslim criminal = islam is fundamentally evil; christian criminal = individual bad apple.

The truth is neither of these.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I don't think muslim criminals get any more of a free ride than christian ones.

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Unfortunately that's exactly what happened. They did get a free ride because of their ethnicity/culture/religion. It's not acceptable. Is it?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I guess that changes everything! I heard eskimo's build iglo's that's just cold imho

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:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

With all due respect, Idaho, we are not giving a free pass to non-muslim criminals of this type.

The free pass, it seems, tends to come from the left in regards to things muslims say and do. Even here in the states, while we openly lambast christians and jehovas and catholics and baptists and scientologists, if you make some comments about muslims oh no you are a racist. All I ask is that everyone plays by the same set of rules and uses the same standards, and if these men chose these girls specifically because they were NOT muslim, then this issue needs to be addressed as it reflects a very real and dangerous line of thinking

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Agree completly with this.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Unfortunately that's exactly what happened. They did get a free ride because of their ethnicity/culture/religion. It's not acceptable. Is it?

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....says a couple of random commentators. The facts, however, state that they were caught, tried and convicted, with additional penalty.

But, because the commentators speaks to IA's existing prejudices, he easily disregards the facts in this case.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

The point is that many on this board want to make the case that muslim criminal = islam is fundamentally evil; christian criminal = individual bad apple.

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Oh. And where might that be

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....says a couple of random commentators. The facts, however, state that they were caught, tried and convicted, with additional penalty.

But, because the commentators speaks to IA's existing prejudices, he easily disregards the facts in this case.

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Hmmmm...I'd say it's more people who think like you that are prejudiced.

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Originally Posted by Hax

What do you mean by race and ethnicity?

Also, to what extent is this actually true? I mean, especially with the idea that we have of America is that you can say anything anywhere all the time, so do you have any situations in which it's evident that media outlets avoid mentioning Islam and/or Muslims?

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Alright. Look dude. Once upon a time, when I was in college, a new trend was taking hold in local newspapers and univeristy curriculum that advocated leaving the race of SUSPECTS out of crime stories. This was a touchy feely way of being politically correct. They said the race was not relevant. They backed this up by saying the naked eye can be wrong about race, and that a guy described as hispanic could really be arab.

All of that is garbage. When running a crime story where the susepct is STILL AT LARGE, advertising the color/race of the person is as important as what he was wearing, the color of the car, the time of day etc. The public service is negated by running the story without this info. Who cares if I say "arab" and he turns out to be indian. We are trying to solve a crime. They will stop the brown guy. OR the aian guy. Or the white guy.

This trend has taken hold at the local level. No, it's not 100%, but the fact that some outlets do it is highly disturbing.

How does this relate to muslims? Because stories of honor killings will be reported as a homicide. Thats it, a "domectic dispute." Nevermind the the people involved were muslim, or immigrants, or that is was a religious family dispute. Lets call it a "homicide." Meanwhile, the homicide up the street that didn't involve the cause celebe minority will have a story with all sorts of juicy details that some might call irrelevant, or that some might call as relevant as the family in the honor killing being muslim. Again, not 100% all the time, but the mere fact that certain agencies choose to willingly omit this information is disturbing. Imagine taking the Catholic church out of the serial molestation debacle, and just calling the priests "community leaders."

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....says a couple of random commentators. The facts, however, state that they were caught, tried and convicted, with additional penalty.

But, because the commentators speaks to IA's existing prejudices, he easily disregards the facts in this case.

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You mean the local MP and the Muslim activist?

Hardly "random" commentators.

That is not all we are discussing - we are also discussing the fact that these Muslim men picked white​ girls deliberately.